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OT. GM beats Tesla...

B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/29/2020 12:39 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
  \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
  WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
  Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations.. Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.
Most people will charge at home or work, mostly at home. cars with fast
chargers and 400 mile ranges will make public charging stations mostly
irrelevant outside certain use cases like on highways and to support
people who live in apartments and condos.

That is to say driving long distances regularly and charger-anxiety and
trying to box EVs into a gas-station mentality is mostly things retired
people worry about we\'ve been thru this.

My area has probably the highest density of EVs and charge stations
outside CA and what\'s most remarkable about the charge stations is how
little they\'re used, already.
 
E

Ed Lee

Guest
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:23:40 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 12:39 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
\"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations.. Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

Most people will charge at home or work, mostly at home. cars with fast
chargers and 400 mile ranges will make public charging stations mostly
irrelevant outside certain use cases like on highways and to support
people who live in apartments and condos.

That is to say driving long distances regularly and charger-anxiety and
trying to box EVs into a gas-station mentality is mostly things retired
people worry about we\'ve been thru this.

My area has probably the highest density of EVs and charge stations
outside CA and what\'s most remarkable about the charge stations is how
little they\'re used, already.
The over priced chargers are rarely in-use, i.e. Evgo and Electric America.
Some Ev Connect are reasonable in price and usage.
ChargePoints are usually the best and the busiest.
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/29/2020 2:50 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:23:40 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 12:39 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
\"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations.. Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

Most people will charge at home or work, mostly at home. cars with fast
chargers and 400 mile ranges will make public charging stations mostly
irrelevant outside certain use cases like on highways and to support
people who live in apartments and condos.

That is to say driving long distances regularly and charger-anxiety and
trying to box EVs into a gas-station mentality is mostly things retired
people worry about we\'ve been thru this.

My area has probably the highest density of EVs and charge stations
outside CA and what\'s most remarkable about the charge stations is how
little they\'re used, already.

The over priced chargers are rarely in-use, i.e. Evgo and Electric America.
Some Ev Connect are reasonable in price and usage.
ChargePoints are usually the best and the busiest.
I use ChargePoint but that\'s mainly because I have a car with a 50 mile
pack that charges at 3.3 kW, so when I go into a grocery store for 45
min it\'s worth my time to hook up to a level 2 (particularly if it\'s free.)

If I had a car with a 250 mile range that I could fast-charge at home
that\'s more than I drive round trip in a day 99% of the time, level 2 is
not worth my time, or public chargers at all really unless I\'m going
further afield that 1% of the time or they\'re offering me a way better
daytime rate than what I got overnight at home. Nobody\'s letting you
pull 25 kW to quick charge a 250 mile pack for free.
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/29/2020 2:56 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 2:50 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:23:40 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 12:39 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise
according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise



Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it
does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
\"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts
store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with
luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years
EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the
US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of
fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by
more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the
dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower
operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs
of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep
their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of
fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of
mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age.
At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like
unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station
paradigm. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who
drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people
will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will
be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people
can use them like gas stations.. Pull up, plug in, get a cup of
coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on
your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge
fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very
fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging
will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess
solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day
most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

Most people will charge at home or work, mostly at home. cars with fast
chargers and 400 mile ranges will make public charging stations mostly
irrelevant outside certain use cases like on highways and to support
people who live in apartments and condos.

That is to say driving long distances regularly and charger-anxiety and
trying to box EVs into a gas-station mentality is mostly things retired
people worry about we\'ve been thru this.

My area has probably the highest density of EVs and charge stations
outside CA and what\'s most remarkable about the charge stations is how
little they\'re used, already.

The over priced chargers are rarely in-use, i.e. Evgo and Electric
America.
Some Ev Connect are reasonable in price and usage.
ChargePoints are usually the best and the busiest.


I use ChargePoint but that\'s mainly because I have a car with a 50 mile
pack that charges at 3.3 kW, so when I go into a grocery store for 45
min it\'s worth my time to hook up to a level 2 (particularly if it\'s free.)

If I had a car with a 250 mile range that I could fast-charge
or even Level 2 charge, really.
 
E

Ed Lee

Guest
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:56:36 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 2:50 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:23:40 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 12:39 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
\"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm.. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations.. Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

Most people will charge at home or work, mostly at home. cars with fast
chargers and 400 mile ranges will make public charging stations mostly
irrelevant outside certain use cases like on highways and to support
people who live in apartments and condos.

That is to say driving long distances regularly and charger-anxiety and
trying to box EVs into a gas-station mentality is mostly things retired
people worry about we\'ve been thru this.

My area has probably the highest density of EVs and charge stations
outside CA and what\'s most remarkable about the charge stations is how
little they\'re used, already.

The over priced chargers are rarely in-use, i.e. Evgo and Electric America.
Some Ev Connect are reasonable in price and usage.
ChargePoints are usually the best and the busiest.

I use ChargePoint but that\'s mainly because I have a car with a 50 mile
pack that charges at 3.3 kW, so when I go into a grocery store for 45
min it\'s worth my time to hook up to a level 2 (particularly if it\'s free..)

If I had a car with a 250 mile range that I could fast-charge at home
that\'s more than I drive round trip in a day 99% of the time, level 2 is
not worth my time, or public chargers at all really unless I\'m going
further afield that 1% of the time or they\'re offering me a way better
daytime rate than what I got overnight at home. Nobody\'s letting you
pull 25 kW to quick charge a 250 mile pack for free.
That\'s not true. I know a few places with free Fast Chargers. I.e. Public offices and rest area. In fact, i am waiting for 1 on I-58 and 2 on I-15, on my way to Vegas.

Yes, problem is the Teslas\' hogging them for hours. They should all be limited to 30 minutes.
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/29/2020 3:01 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:56:36 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 2:50 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:23:40 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 12:39 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
\"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations.. Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

Most people will charge at home or work, mostly at home. cars with fast
chargers and 400 mile ranges will make public charging stations mostly
irrelevant outside certain use cases like on highways and to support
people who live in apartments and condos.

That is to say driving long distances regularly and charger-anxiety and
trying to box EVs into a gas-station mentality is mostly things retired
people worry about we\'ve been thru this.

My area has probably the highest density of EVs and charge stations
outside CA and what\'s most remarkable about the charge stations is how
little they\'re used, already.

The over priced chargers are rarely in-use, i.e. Evgo and Electric America.
Some Ev Connect are reasonable in price and usage.
ChargePoints are usually the best and the busiest.

I use ChargePoint but that\'s mainly because I have a car with a 50 mile
pack that charges at 3.3 kW, so when I go into a grocery store for 45
min it\'s worth my time to hook up to a level 2 (particularly if it\'s free.)

If I had a car with a 250 mile range that I could fast-charge at home
that\'s more than I drive round trip in a day 99% of the time, level 2 is
not worth my time, or public chargers at all really unless I\'m going
further afield that 1% of the time or they\'re offering me a way better
daytime rate than what I got overnight at home. Nobody\'s letting you
pull 25 kW to quick charge a 250 mile pack for free.

That\'s not true. I know a few places with free Fast Chargers. I.e. Public offices and rest area. In fact, i am waiting for 1 on I-58 and 2 on I-15, on my way to Vegas.

Yes, problem is the Teslas\' hogging them for hours. They should all be limited to 30 minutes.
Oh, must be that California communism. The people\'s republic of
Massachusetts doesn\'t have that AFAIK
 
E

Ed Lee

Guest
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 1:20:51 PM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 3:01 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:56:36 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 2:50 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:23:40 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 12:39 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
\"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588..
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations.. Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

Most people will charge at home or work, mostly at home. cars with fast
chargers and 400 mile ranges will make public charging stations mostly
irrelevant outside certain use cases like on highways and to support
people who live in apartments and condos.

That is to say driving long distances regularly and charger-anxiety and
trying to box EVs into a gas-station mentality is mostly things retired
people worry about we\'ve been thru this.

My area has probably the highest density of EVs and charge stations
outside CA and what\'s most remarkable about the charge stations is how
little they\'re used, already.

The over priced chargers are rarely in-use, i.e. Evgo and Electric America.
Some Ev Connect are reasonable in price and usage.
ChargePoints are usually the best and the busiest.

I use ChargePoint but that\'s mainly because I have a car with a 50 mile
pack that charges at 3.3 kW, so when I go into a grocery store for 45
min it\'s worth my time to hook up to a level 2 (particularly if it\'s free.)

If I had a car with a 250 mile range that I could fast-charge at home
that\'s more than I drive round trip in a day 99% of the time, level 2 is
not worth my time, or public chargers at all really unless I\'m going
further afield that 1% of the time or they\'re offering me a way better
daytime rate than what I got overnight at home. Nobody\'s letting you
pull 25 kW to quick charge a 250 mile pack for free.

That\'s not true. I know a few places with free Fast Chargers. I.e. Public offices and rest area. In fact, i am waiting for 1 on I-58 and 2 on I-15, on my way to Vegas.

Yes, problem is the Teslas\' hogging them for hours. They should all be limited to 30 minutes.

Oh, must be that California communism. The people\'s republic of
Massachusetts doesn\'t have that AFAIK
Free charging is as communistic as free street lights or free highways, if you wish.
 
E

Ed Lee

Guest
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 1:28:33 PM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 1:20:51 PM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 3:01 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:56:36 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 2:50 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:23:40 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 12:39 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
\"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations.. Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

Most people will charge at home or work, mostly at home. cars with fast
chargers and 400 mile ranges will make public charging stations mostly
irrelevant outside certain use cases like on highways and to support
people who live in apartments and condos.

That is to say driving long distances regularly and charger-anxiety and
trying to box EVs into a gas-station mentality is mostly things retired
people worry about we\'ve been thru this.

My area has probably the highest density of EVs and charge stations
outside CA and what\'s most remarkable about the charge stations is how
little they\'re used, already.

The over priced chargers are rarely in-use, i.e. Evgo and Electric America.
Some Ev Connect are reasonable in price and usage.
ChargePoints are usually the best and the busiest.

I use ChargePoint but that\'s mainly because I have a car with a 50 mile
pack that charges at 3.3 kW, so when I go into a grocery store for 45
min it\'s worth my time to hook up to a level 2 (particularly if it\'s free.)

If I had a car with a 250 mile range that I could fast-charge at home
that\'s more than I drive round trip in a day 99% of the time, level 2 is
not worth my time, or public chargers at all really unless I\'m going
further afield that 1% of the time or they\'re offering me a way better
daytime rate than what I got overnight at home. Nobody\'s letting you
pull 25 kW to quick charge a 250 mile pack for free.

That\'s not true. I know a few places with free Fast Chargers. I.e. Public offices and rest area. In fact, i am waiting for 1 on I-58 and 2 on I-15, on my way to Vegas.

Yes, problem is the Teslas\' hogging them for hours. They should all be limited to 30 minutes.

Oh, must be that California communism. The people\'s republic of
Massachusetts doesn\'t have that AFAIK
Free charging is as communistic as free street lights or free highways, if you wish.
Communism is taking private properties for sharing. Free service is socialism at best.

Yes, i am open to charging for charging (for example, 15 cents per kwh). 25 cents for using the bathroom. and 5 cents per minutes when parked at night (when the street lights are on). Or just $1 for entering the rest area.

It\'s a lot simpler to just use sale taxes to fund these services.
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/29/2020 4:53 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 1:28:33 PM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 1:20:51 PM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 3:01 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:56:36 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 2:50 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:23:40 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 12:39 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
\"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations.. Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

Most people will charge at home or work, mostly at home. cars with fast
chargers and 400 mile ranges will make public charging stations mostly
irrelevant outside certain use cases like on highways and to support
people who live in apartments and condos.

That is to say driving long distances regularly and charger-anxiety and
trying to box EVs into a gas-station mentality is mostly things retired
people worry about we\'ve been thru this.

My area has probably the highest density of EVs and charge stations
outside CA and what\'s most remarkable about the charge stations is how
little they\'re used, already.

The over priced chargers are rarely in-use, i.e. Evgo and Electric America.
Some Ev Connect are reasonable in price and usage.
ChargePoints are usually the best and the busiest.

I use ChargePoint but that\'s mainly because I have a car with a 50 mile
pack that charges at 3.3 kW, so when I go into a grocery store for 45
min it\'s worth my time to hook up to a level 2 (particularly if it\'s free.)

If I had a car with a 250 mile range that I could fast-charge at home
that\'s more than I drive round trip in a day 99% of the time, level 2 is
not worth my time, or public chargers at all really unless I\'m going
further afield that 1% of the time or they\'re offering me a way better
daytime rate than what I got overnight at home. Nobody\'s letting you
pull 25 kW to quick charge a 250 mile pack for free.

That\'s not true. I know a few places with free Fast Chargers. I.e. Public offices and rest area. In fact, i am waiting for 1 on I-58 and 2 on I-15, on my way to Vegas.

Yes, problem is the Teslas\' hogging them for hours. They should all be limited to 30 minutes.

Oh, must be that California communism. The people\'s republic of
Massachusetts doesn\'t have that AFAIK
Free charging is as communistic as free street lights or free highways, if you wish.

Communism is taking private properties for sharing. Free service is socialism at best.

Yes, i am open to charging for charging (for example, 15 cents per kwh). 25 cents for using the bathroom. and 5 cents per minutes when parked at night (when the street lights are on). Or just $1 for entering the rest area.

It\'s a lot simpler to just use sale taxes to fund these services.
Sales taxes are regressive, have Jeff Bezos pay for a decade of charging
1 billion cars with 1% of his money.
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:58:31 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 4:53 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 1:28:33 PM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 1:20:51 PM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 3:01 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:56:36 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 2:50 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:23:40 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 12:39 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
\"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations... Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

Most people will charge at home or work, mostly at home. cars with fast
chargers and 400 mile ranges will make public charging stations mostly
irrelevant outside certain use cases like on highways and to support
people who live in apartments and condos.

That is to say driving long distances regularly and charger-anxiety and
trying to box EVs into a gas-station mentality is mostly things retired
people worry about we\'ve been thru this.

My area has probably the highest density of EVs and charge stations
outside CA and what\'s most remarkable about the charge stations is how
little they\'re used, already.

The over priced chargers are rarely in-use, i.e. Evgo and Electric America.
Some Ev Connect are reasonable in price and usage.
ChargePoints are usually the best and the busiest.

I use ChargePoint but that\'s mainly because I have a car with a 50 mile
pack that charges at 3.3 kW, so when I go into a grocery store for 45
min it\'s worth my time to hook up to a level 2 (particularly if it\'s free.)

If I had a car with a 250 mile range that I could fast-charge at home
that\'s more than I drive round trip in a day 99% of the time, level 2 is
not worth my time, or public chargers at all really unless I\'m going
further afield that 1% of the time or they\'re offering me a way better
daytime rate than what I got overnight at home. Nobody\'s letting you
pull 25 kW to quick charge a 250 mile pack for free.

That\'s not true. I know a few places with free Fast Chargers. I.e. Public offices and rest area. In fact, i am waiting for 1 on I-58 and 2 on I-15, on my way to Vegas.

Yes, problem is the Teslas\' hogging them for hours. They should all be limited to 30 minutes.

Oh, must be that California communism. The people\'s republic of
Massachusetts doesn\'t have that AFAIK
Free charging is as communistic as free street lights or free highways, if you wish.

Communism is taking private properties for sharing. Free service is socialism at best.

Yes, i am open to charging for charging (for example, 15 cents per kwh).. 25 cents for using the bathroom. and 5 cents per minutes when parked at night (when the street lights are on). Or just $1 for entering the rest area.

It\'s a lot simpler to just use sale taxes to fund these services.


Sales taxes are regressive, have Jeff Bezos pay for a decade of charging
1 billion cars with 1% of his money.
Be careful. Don\'t say that name three times!~!

--

Rick C.

-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
E

Ed Lee

Guest
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 8:58:31 PM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 4:53 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 1:28:33 PM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 1:20:51 PM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 3:01 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:56:36 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 2:50 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:23:40 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 12:39 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
\"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations... Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

Most people will charge at home or work, mostly at home. cars with fast
chargers and 400 mile ranges will make public charging stations mostly
irrelevant outside certain use cases like on highways and to support
people who live in apartments and condos.

That is to say driving long distances regularly and charger-anxiety and
trying to box EVs into a gas-station mentality is mostly things retired
people worry about we\'ve been thru this.

My area has probably the highest density of EVs and charge stations
outside CA and what\'s most remarkable about the charge stations is how
little they\'re used, already.

The over priced chargers are rarely in-use, i.e. Evgo and Electric America.
Some Ev Connect are reasonable in price and usage.
ChargePoints are usually the best and the busiest.

I use ChargePoint but that\'s mainly because I have a car with a 50 mile
pack that charges at 3.3 kW, so when I go into a grocery store for 45
min it\'s worth my time to hook up to a level 2 (particularly if it\'s free.)

If I had a car with a 250 mile range that I could fast-charge at home
that\'s more than I drive round trip in a day 99% of the time, level 2 is
not worth my time, or public chargers at all really unless I\'m going
further afield that 1% of the time or they\'re offering me a way better
daytime rate than what I got overnight at home. Nobody\'s letting you
pull 25 kW to quick charge a 250 mile pack for free.

That\'s not true. I know a few places with free Fast Chargers. I.e. Public offices and rest area. In fact, i am waiting for 1 on I-58 and 2 on I-15, on my way to Vegas.

Yes, problem is the Teslas\' hogging them for hours. They should all be limited to 30 minutes.

Oh, must be that California communism. The people\'s republic of
Massachusetts doesn\'t have that AFAIK
Free charging is as communistic as free street lights or free highways, if you wish.

Communism is taking private properties for sharing. Free service is socialism at best.

Yes, i am open to charging for charging (for example, 15 cents per kwh).. 25 cents for using the bathroom. and 5 cents per minutes when parked at night (when the street lights are on). Or just $1 for entering the rest area..

It\'s a lot simpler to just use sale taxes to fund these services.

Sales taxes are regressive, have Jeff Bezos pay for a decade of charging
1 billion cars with 1% of his money.
I am just saying that there are many considerations for what and how to charge for charging.

Those fast chargers are urgently needed to bridge the gaps between Vegas and the West Coast. So, build them first and worry about payments later. They have been \"coming soon\" for months, hopefully soon. The chargers are currently marked \"non-networked\" (no payment plan), but could change later. In fact, it might be better to have a small payment to stop hogging.

If i can implement the scheme, it would have several connections there. First EV there gets 30 minutes at full speed. When a second one come in, the first one will drop to half speed. The second EV will get 30 minutes for full speed, etc.
 
D

Dean Hoffman

Guest
On 10/29/20 9:54 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 6:55 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise
according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it
does not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
   \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
   WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
   Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

      I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site.  The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS   hatchback,  $10287.   The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES,  $10,474.   The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman,   $18,017.   A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
     California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035.  There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
  business.  California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.




Comparing the lowest-price cars you can buy to one of the most expensive
luxury EVs you can buy seems hardly fair. The Mirage is a really
dreadful car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peZ8AQsZabI

The Spark is somewhat better. They sold an all-electric Spark in the mid
2010s in several US states including CA as a compliance car it was much
better as an electric runabout with a ~100 mile quick-charge battery
pack, and with a mostly direct transplant of the Chevy Volt motor into a
tiny car it was absurdly powerful for its size. It was an easy mod. But
at the time it couldn\'t be sold at a profit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkT8rZj8YH0

But the MSRP on the lowest trim gas 2021 Spark on Chevy\'s site is about
14k, don\'t know how anyone\'s selling it at a profit at 10.
You guys were right, of course. I did a little more snooping.
<https://www.edmunds.com/electric-car/articles/cheapest-electric-cars/.
The prices I found don\'t necessarily match theirs.
Cheapest is the Nissan Leaf. Hatchback $28,690
<http://preview.alturl.com/mat6m>
Mini Cooper SE Hatchback. $30,750
<http://preview.alturl.com/d62pa>
Mazda is coming out with the MX-30 eventually.
Wankel engine to back up the EV portion.
<http://preview.alturl.com/bzbm2>
Estimated price $35,000 SUV
Didn\'t our betters in Washington decide years ago
that cars had to get X miles per gallon?
Didn\'t that mandate lead to people buying minivans
and SUVs that were exempt from the new rules?
 
S

server

Guest
On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 09:41:27 -0500, Dean Hoffman <deanhofman@clod.com>
wrote:

On 10/29/20 9:54 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 6:55 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise
according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it
does not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
   \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
   WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
   Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

      I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site.  The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS   hatchback,  $10287.   The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES,  $10,474.   The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman,   $18,017.   A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
     California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035.  There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
  business.  California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.




Comparing the lowest-price cars you can buy to one of the most expensive
luxury EVs you can buy seems hardly fair. The Mirage is a really
dreadful car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peZ8AQsZabI

The Spark is somewhat better. They sold an all-electric Spark in the mid
2010s in several US states including CA as a compliance car it was much
better as an electric runabout with a ~100 mile quick-charge battery
pack, and with a mostly direct transplant of the Chevy Volt motor into a
tiny car it was absurdly powerful for its size. It was an easy mod. But
at the time it couldn\'t be sold at a profit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkT8rZj8YH0

But the MSRP on the lowest trim gas 2021 Spark on Chevy\'s site is about
14k, don\'t know how anyone\'s selling it at a profit at 10.

You guys were right, of course. I did a little more snooping.
https://www.edmunds.com/electric-car/articles/cheapest-electric-cars/.
The prices I found don\'t necessarily match theirs.
Cheapest is the Nissan Leaf. Hatchback $28,690
http://preview.alturl.com/mat6m
Mini Cooper SE Hatchback. $30,750
http://preview.alturl.com/d62pa
Mazda is coming out with the MX-30 eventually.
Wankel engine to back up the EV portion.
http://preview.alturl.com/bzbm2
Estimated price $35,000 SUV
Didn\'t our betters in Washington decide years ago
that cars had to get X miles per gallon?
Didn\'t that mandate lead to people buying minivans
and SUVs that were exempt from the new rules?
The US congress is the world\'s biggest loophole factory.

Since most people who buy electric cars are penny-pinchers, and since
it\'s not very hard to build them, and since they can be built by
people who already know how to build quality affordable cars (whose
panels fit and roofs don\'t fly off), Tesla must eventually be in
trouble. Most of their \"profit\" has been from selling energy credits
to gas car makers.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/30/2020 10:56 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2020 09:41:27 -0500, Dean Hoffman <deanhofman@clod.com
wrote:

On 10/29/20 9:54 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 6:55 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise
according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it
does not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
   \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
   WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
   Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

      I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site.  The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS   hatchback,  $10287.   The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES,  $10,474.   The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman,   $18,017.   A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
     California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035.  There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
  business.  California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.




Comparing the lowest-price cars you can buy to one of the most expensive
luxury EVs you can buy seems hardly fair. The Mirage is a really
dreadful car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peZ8AQsZabI

The Spark is somewhat better. They sold an all-electric Spark in the mid
2010s in several US states including CA as a compliance car it was much
better as an electric runabout with a ~100 mile quick-charge battery
pack, and with a mostly direct transplant of the Chevy Volt motor into a
tiny car it was absurdly powerful for its size. It was an easy mod. But
at the time it couldn\'t be sold at a profit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkT8rZj8YH0

But the MSRP on the lowest trim gas 2021 Spark on Chevy\'s site is about
14k, don\'t know how anyone\'s selling it at a profit at 10.

You guys were right, of course. I did a little more snooping.
https://www.edmunds.com/electric-car/articles/cheapest-electric-cars/.
The prices I found don\'t necessarily match theirs.
Cheapest is the Nissan Leaf. Hatchback $28,690
http://preview.alturl.com/mat6m
Mini Cooper SE Hatchback. $30,750
http://preview.alturl.com/d62pa
Mazda is coming out with the MX-30 eventually.
Wankel engine to back up the EV portion.
http://preview.alturl.com/bzbm2
Estimated price $35,000 SUV
Didn\'t our betters in Washington decide years ago
that cars had to get X miles per gallon?
Didn\'t that mandate lead to people buying minivans
and SUVs that were exempt from the new rules?



The US congress is the world\'s biggest loophole factory.

Since most people who buy electric cars are penny-pinchers, and since
it\'s not very hard to build them, and since they can be built by
people who already know how to build quality affordable cars (whose
panels fit and roofs don\'t fly off), Tesla must eventually be in
trouble. Most of their \"profit\" has been from selling energy credits
to gas car makers.
Electric cars still aren\'t that cheap. The Model 3 is the best selling
EV in the US its average sale price is over 50 grand. Nobody buys a 50
grand car to \"save money.\"
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/30/2020 10:41 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/29/20 9:54 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 6:55 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise
according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it
does not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
   \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
   WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
   Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

      I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site.  The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS   hatchback,  $10287.   The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES,  $10,474.   The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman,   $18,017.   A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
     California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035.  There must be people thinking about the auto parts
store
  business.  California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.




Comparing the lowest-price cars you can buy to one of the most
expensive luxury EVs you can buy seems hardly fair. The Mirage is a
really dreadful car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peZ8AQsZabI

The Spark is somewhat better. They sold an all-electric Spark in the
mid 2010s in several US states including CA as a compliance car it was
much better as an electric runabout with a ~100 mile quick-charge
battery pack, and with a mostly direct transplant of the Chevy Volt
motor into a tiny car it was absurdly powerful for its size. It was an
easy mod. But at the time it couldn\'t be sold at a profit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkT8rZj8YH0

But the MSRP on the lowest trim gas 2021 Spark on Chevy\'s site is
about 14k, don\'t know how anyone\'s selling it at a profit at 10.

     You guys were right, of course.   I did a little more snooping.
https://www.edmunds.com/electric-car/articles/cheapest-electric-cars/.
The prices I found don\'t necessarily match theirs.
Cheapest is the Nissan Leaf.   Hatchback   $28,690
http://preview.alturl.com/mat6m
Mini Cooper SE   Hatchback.  $30,750
http://preview.alturl.com/d62pa
  Mazda is coming out with the MX-30 eventually.
Wankel engine to back up the EV portion.
http://preview.alturl.com/bzbm2
Estimated price   $35,000  SUV
  Didn\'t our betters in Washington decide years ago
that cars had to get X miles per gallon?
Didn\'t that mandate lead to people buying minivans
and SUVs that were exempt from the new rules?
The US CAFE standards (under Obama FWIW) were changed to be
footprint-based, there is some evidence this leads manufacturers to
favor building larger vehicles:

<https://scholars.unh.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1009&context=econ_facpub>
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/30/2020 6:57 AM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 8:58:31 PM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 4:53 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 1:28:33 PM UTC-7, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 1:20:51 PM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 3:01 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:56:36 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 2:50 PM, Ed Lee wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:23:40 AM UTC-7, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 12:39 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
\"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations.. Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

Most people will charge at home or work, mostly at home. cars with fast
chargers and 400 mile ranges will make public charging stations mostly
irrelevant outside certain use cases like on highways and to support
people who live in apartments and condos.

That is to say driving long distances regularly and charger-anxiety and
trying to box EVs into a gas-station mentality is mostly things retired
people worry about we\'ve been thru this.

My area has probably the highest density of EVs and charge stations
outside CA and what\'s most remarkable about the charge stations is how
little they\'re used, already.

The over priced chargers are rarely in-use, i.e. Evgo and Electric America.
Some Ev Connect are reasonable in price and usage.
ChargePoints are usually the best and the busiest.

I use ChargePoint but that\'s mainly because I have a car with a 50 mile
pack that charges at 3.3 kW, so when I go into a grocery store for 45
min it\'s worth my time to hook up to a level 2 (particularly if it\'s free.)

If I had a car with a 250 mile range that I could fast-charge at home
that\'s more than I drive round trip in a day 99% of the time, level 2 is
not worth my time, or public chargers at all really unless I\'m going
further afield that 1% of the time or they\'re offering me a way better
daytime rate than what I got overnight at home. Nobody\'s letting you
pull 25 kW to quick charge a 250 mile pack for free.

That\'s not true. I know a few places with free Fast Chargers. I.e. Public offices and rest area. In fact, i am waiting for 1 on I-58 and 2 on I-15, on my way to Vegas.

Yes, problem is the Teslas\' hogging them for hours. They should all be limited to 30 minutes.

Oh, must be that California communism. The people\'s republic of
Massachusetts doesn\'t have that AFAIK
Free charging is as communistic as free street lights or free highways, if you wish.

Communism is taking private properties for sharing. Free service is socialism at best.

Yes, i am open to charging for charging (for example, 15 cents per kwh). 25 cents for using the bathroom. and 5 cents per minutes when parked at night (when the street lights are on). Or just $1 for entering the rest area.

It\'s a lot simpler to just use sale taxes to fund these services.

Sales taxes are regressive, have Jeff Bezos pay for a decade of charging
1 billion cars with 1% of his money.

I am just saying that there are many considerations for what and how to charge for charging.

Those fast chargers are urgently needed to bridge the gaps between Vegas and the West Coast. So, build them first and worry about payments later. They have been \"coming soon\" for months, hopefully soon. The chargers are currently marked \"non-networked\" (no payment plan), but could change later. In fact, it might be better to have a small payment to stop hogging.

If i can implement the scheme, it would have several connections there. First EV there gets 30 minutes at full speed. When a second one come in, the first one will drop to half speed. The second EV will get 30 minutes for full speed, etc.
Can\'t they just build a high-speed train to Vegas, already? The route is
mostly dirt!

In the Northeast we\'re kind of stuck with the 19th century legacy system
we have, speeds top out at 150 mph and that\'s where I expect they\'ll be
for the foreseeable future.
 
D

Dean Hoffman

Guest
On 10/29/20 11:39 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
  \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
  WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
  Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations.. Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.
Maybe places like restaurants and motels can put some charging
stations in. People use credit cards to pay for time or whatever. The
vehicles would be sitting still
anyhow.
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/30/2020 4:52 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/29/20 11:39 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise
according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise



Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
    \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
    WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
    Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

       I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site.  The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS   hatchback,  $10287.   The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES,  $10,474.   The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman,   $18,017.   A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
      California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven
vehicles
starts in 2035.  There must be people thinking about the auto parts
store
   business.  California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes  along with
luxury, electric SUVs.  But the principle is right.  In around 5 years
EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the
US at least.  I will probably be another five years for the number of
fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more
than 30%.  During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster
slowing adoption of EVs.  But EVs have inherently lower operating
costs.  So the trend will continue as the production costs of
batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their
vehicles longer.  But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil
fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic
will drop and drop rapidly.  Autos don\'t fare well with age.  At some
point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station
paradigm.  They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who
drives has to go their once a week to fill up.  With EVs most people
will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will
be around for some time, 30 minutes or so.  I suppose a lot of people
can use them like gas stations..  Pull up, plug in, get a cup of
coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your
way with another 75-100 miles of range.  The batteries charge fastest
and last longest if not charged fully.  20-50% gives a very fast
charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will
mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar
generation people seem to get so upset about.  In an 8 hour day most
EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

      Maybe places like restaurants and motels can put some charging
stations in.  People use credit cards to pay for time or whatever.   The
vehicles would be sitting still
anyhow.
There are a lot of restaurants, grocery stores, hotels, malls, etc. in
my area that do this already. There are dozens of charging stations like
that within 10 miles of me alone.

Problem is the Level 2 chargers take too long, even if they\'re free, and
with the fast chargers there either aren\'t enough cars that support them
on the road, or they\'re charging too much money, or both, so they\'re
rarely used.

The only public chargers I see that are in regular use and sometimes
full-up are ones at the train station, or ones that are right in the
middle of a downtown area.
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 4:52:09 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/29/20 11:39 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
  \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
  WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
  Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations.. Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

Maybe places like restaurants and motels can put some charging
stations in. People use credit cards to pay for time or whatever. The
vehicles would be sitting still
anyhow.
Many hotels already have level 2 charging, maybe not enough of it though. It\'s not uncommon to find them full if you arrive late. Level 2 charging is not very costly. My tank of electrons at night rates is around $5 to $8 bucks. About the same as the cost of providing the free breakfast I expect..

To me the ideal EV would have enough range to drive for four hours at 70 mph, so 280 miles (not total, I mean useful range, so maybe 350 or 400 total) and charge in an hour so you can have a meal while stopped. Then you can get a charge overnight allowing good distance in a day. My car is only short of that by about 70 miles or 25%. I fully expect 350 or 400 miles to be the norm in a few years as improvements to batteries are made. Tesla is already making a change in battery chemistry that is primarily to get away from using more expensive elements in the fabrication like cobalt if I recall correctly. Still, there is tons and tons of research going on in that domain. Rapid improvements can be expected, even if only incremental, in not too much time the EV will be the main stream car for nearly everyone.

This is not such a radical thing to say really. It won\'t take any government mandates, just a bit of time and a few more small improvements.

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 7:27:40 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 10/30/2020 4:52 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/29/20 11:39 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise
according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise



Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
    \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
    WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
    Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

       I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site.  The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS   hatchback,  $10287.   The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES,  $10,474.   The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman,   $18,017.   A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
      California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven
vehicles
starts in 2035.  There must be people thinking about the auto parts
store
   business.  California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes  along with
luxury, electric SUVs.  But the principle is right.  In around 5 years
EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the
US at least.  I will probably be another five years for the number of
fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more
than 30%.  During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster
slowing adoption of EVs.  But EVs have inherently lower operating
costs.  So the trend will continue as the production costs of
batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their
vehicles longer.  But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil
fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic
will drop and drop rapidly.  Autos don\'t fare well with age.  At some
point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability..

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station
paradigm.  They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who
drives has to go their once a week to fill up.  With EVs most people
will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will
be around for some time, 30 minutes or so.  I suppose a lot of people
can use them like gas stations..  Pull up, plug in, get a cup of
coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your
way with another 75-100 miles of range.  The batteries charge fastest
and last longest if not charged fully.  20-50% gives a very fast
charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will
mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar
generation people seem to get so upset about.  In an 8 hour day most
EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

      Maybe places like restaurants and motels can put some charging
stations in.  People use credit cards to pay for time or whatever.   The
vehicles would be sitting still
anyhow.

There are a lot of restaurants, grocery stores, hotels, malls, etc. in
my area that do this already. There are dozens of charging stations like
that within 10 miles of me alone.

Problem is the Level 2 chargers take too long, even if they\'re free, and
with the fast chargers there either aren\'t enough cars that support them
on the road, or they\'re charging too much money, or both, so they\'re
rarely used.

The only public chargers I see that are in regular use and sometimes
full-up are ones at the train station, or ones that are right in the
middle of a downtown area.
Level 2 charging gives around 24 MPH for most EVs (assuming 6 kW and 4 M/kWh). So if you shop at the mall for an hour you get more charging than you likely used to make that trip. But no, level 2 at the super market is not going to give you the charge you need to do a daily commute from the burbs to the city... depending I guess.

I needed a charge once and the level 2 I tried to use was tied up with a brand new (temp tags with today\'s date) Leaf, but fully charged and just occupying the spot. There was no way to get the car disconnected even after a phone call to the charger company. So I had to run around looking for another charger. That was over a year ago and Tesla has a charging station a mile away. That works for me!

--

Rick C.

-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
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