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OT. GM beats Tesla...

D

Dean Hoffman

Guest
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
<https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise>
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise
Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla wants
the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of which
electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are car-agnostic,
ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck from GM, whether
it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does not matter. One of
each would be best, actually.
 
R

Robert Baer

Guest
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla wants
the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of which
electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are car-agnostic,
ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck from GM, whether
it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does not matter. One of
each would be best, actually.
\"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
Maybe even a target price below $10,000....
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/28/2020 5:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
  \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
  WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
  Maybe even a target price below $10,000....
The low-end is a thankless job and tends to be a money-loser. you can
have the same design flaws that would get a car priced at $25k ripped
apart in the reviews, in a car that costs $75k and reviewers will be
much kinder to it because it\'s a \"luxury product\" and they become
\"quirks\", not bugs. \"Its quirks may not appeal to everyone, but for the
well-heeled buyer the blah-di-blah is an attractive...\"
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/28/2020 5:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
  \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
  WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
  Maybe even a target price below $10,000....
GM trucks are viciously overpriced. might be why most pickups I see
doing actual work are Dodge.
 
B

Bill Martin

Guest
On 10/28/20 3:06 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 5:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
   \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
   WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
   Maybe even a target price below $10,000....


GM trucks are viciously overpriced. might be why most pickups I see
doing actual work are Dodge.
I do hope they put the powertrain from that \"electric hummer\" they\'ve
been hyping lately in a real truck...let\'s see, 1000 hp in a Colorado,
that sounds about right.
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/28/2020 10:27 PM, Bill Martin wrote:
On 10/28/20 3:06 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 5:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise
according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it
does not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
   \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
   WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
   Maybe even a target price below $10,000....


GM trucks are viciously overpriced. might be why most pickups I see
doing actual work are Dodge.


I do hope they put the powertrain from that \"electric hummer\" they\'ve
been hyping lately in a real truck...let\'s see, 1000 hp in a Colorado,
that sounds about right.
Sounds about right:

<https://jalopnik.com/first-hellcat-sold-in-colorado-wrecked-an-hour-after-pu-1673994344>
 
D

Dean Hoffman

Guest
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
  \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
  WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
  Maybe even a target price below $10,000....
I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/29/2020 6:55 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
   \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
   WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
   Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

     I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site.  The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS   hatchback,  $10287.   The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES,  $10,474.   The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman,   $18,017.   A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
    California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035.  There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
 business.  California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.
Comparing the lowest-price cars you can buy to one of the most expensive
luxury EVs you can buy seems hardly fair. The Mirage is a really
dreadful car.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peZ8AQsZabI>

The Spark is somewhat better. They sold an all-electric Spark in the mid
2010s in several US states including CA as a compliance car it was much
better as an electric runabout with a ~100 mile quick-charge battery
pack, and with a mostly direct transplant of the Chevy Volt motor into a
tiny car it was absurdly powerful for its size. It was an easy mod. But
at the time it couldn\'t be sold at a profit.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkT8rZj8YH0>

But the MSRP on the lowest trim gas 2021 Spark on Chevy\'s site is about
14k, don\'t know how anyone\'s selling it at a profit at 10.
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/29/2020 10:54 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 6:55 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise
according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it
does not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
   \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
   WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
   Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

      I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site.  The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS   hatchback,  $10287.   The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES,  $10,474.   The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman,   $18,017.   A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
     California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035.  There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
  business.  California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.




Comparing the lowest-price cars you can buy to one of the most expensive
luxury EVs you can buy seems hardly fair. The Mirage is a really
dreadful car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peZ8AQsZabI

The Spark is somewhat better. They sold an all-electric Spark in the mid
2010s in several US states including CA as a compliance car it was much
better as an electric runabout with a ~100 mile quick-charge battery
pack, and with a mostly direct transplant of the Chevy Volt motor into a
tiny car it was absurdly powerful for its size. It was an easy mod. But
at the time it couldn\'t be sold at a profit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkT8rZj8YH0

But the MSRP on the lowest trim gas 2021 Spark on Chevy\'s site is about
14k, don\'t know how anyone\'s selling it at a profit at 10.
The margins are very thin down there I don\'t know if GM is making any
more than 2k net off cars that cost 14k, probably less.
 
S

server

Guest
On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 05:55:59 -0500, Dean Hoffman <deanhofman@clod.com>
wrote:

On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
  \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
  WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
  Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.
The pols here want to force every car to be electric, and are
simultaneously destroying our ability to provide a reliable electric
supply. There is also a trend to banning natural gas in residences and
to not use fossil fuels to make electricity.

I suspect that there aren\'t many electrical engineers among the state
legislature. Most have done nothing their entire lives but be
politicians. The press can rarely distinguish a kilowatt from a KWH
and freely interchanges \"million\" with \"billion.\"

About self-driving, maybe it can be made to work on freeways, but it
would be a lot more difficult in cities. Around here, there is every
imaginable object blasting along the (steep!) streets at all sorts of
velocities and directions. Cars, motorcycles, scooters, skateboards,
bicycles, shopping carts, wheelchairs, unicycles, battery-powered
roller skates, pedestrians, animals, delivery vehicles, all trying to
avoid kids and potholes. The cars often run stop signs and red lights
and the wheeled people always do. Some people cross the street
whenever and wherever they want, oblivious of traffic. We were driving
uphill on Swiss street and a wheeled recycling bin was in the middle
of the street coming right at us, going maybe 30 mph downhill. At the
last second, it swerved and smacked a parked car.

It\'s going to take a lot more than a few cameras and uP\'s to manage
all that.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/29/2020 11:09 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 05:55:59 -0500, Dean Hoffman <deanhofman@clod.com
wrote:

On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
  \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
  WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
  Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.





The pols here want to force every car to be electric, and are
simultaneously destroying our ability to provide a reliable electric
supply. There is also a trend to banning natural gas in residences and
to not use fossil fuels to make electricity.

I suspect that there aren\'t many electrical engineers among the state
legislature. Most have done nothing their entire lives but be
politicians. The press can rarely distinguish a kilowatt from a KWH
and freely interchanges \"million\" with \"billion.\"

About self-driving, maybe it can be made to work on freeways, but it
would be a lot more difficult in cities. Around here, there is every
imaginable object blasting along the (steep!) streets at all sorts of
velocities and directions. Cars, motorcycles, scooters, skateboards,
bicycles, shopping carts, wheelchairs, unicycles, battery-powered
roller skates, pedestrians, animals, delivery vehicles, all trying to
avoid kids and potholes. The cars often run stop signs and red lights
and the wheeled people always do. Some people cross the street
whenever and wherever they want, oblivious of traffic. We were driving
uphill on Swiss street and a wheeled recycling bin was in the middle
of the street coming right at us, going maybe 30 mph downhill. At the
last second, it swerved and smacked a parked car.

It\'s going to take a lot more than a few cameras and uP\'s to manage
all that.
Sounds like you\'re making the case that human vehicle operators are
pretty terrible - that a few cameras and uPs could in principle be a
safer driver than a large fraction of the population doesn\'t seem
farfetched.

The high-profile fatalities with Autopilot seem to have been because the
owner trusted it too much, it was too good. It worked great day after
day after day after day...operator started to view it as a perfect
friend that would always work perfectly. And it kept on working
perfectly until the day it didn\'t and for whatever reason just drives
you straight into the side of a truck at 65 mph.
 
D

Dean Hoffman

Guest
On 10/29/20 9:54 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 6:55 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise
according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it
does not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
   \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
   WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
   Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

      I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site.  The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS   hatchback,  $10287.   The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES,  $10,474.   The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman,   $18,017.   A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
     California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035.  There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
  business.  California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.




Comparing the lowest-price cars you can buy to one of the most expensive
luxury EVs you can buy seems hardly fair. The Mirage is a really
dreadful car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peZ8AQsZabI

The Spark is somewhat better. They sold an all-electric Spark in the mid
2010s in several US states including CA as a compliance car it was much
better as an electric runabout with a ~100 mile quick-charge battery
pack, and with a mostly direct transplant of the Chevy Volt motor into a
tiny car it was absurdly powerful for its size. It was an easy mod. But
at the time it couldn\'t be sold at a profit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkT8rZj8YH0

But the MSRP on the lowest trim gas 2021 Spark on Chevy\'s site is about
14k, don\'t know how anyone\'s selling it at a profit at 10.
I tried to be careful about the pricing but could\'ve messed up.
That car wasn\'t
on Carvana this morning. This one is on Auto Trader.
<http://preview.alturl.com/5un4f> $10,895
I didn\'t look at anything except price. I\'ve spent a little time
looking at pickups
the last few days. The manufacturers are sure proud of those things.
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/29/2020 12:07 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/29/20 9:54 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 6:55 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise
according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it
does not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
   \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
   WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
   Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

      I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site.  The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS   hatchback,  $10287.   The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES,  $10,474.   The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman,   $18,017.   A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
     California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035.  There must be people thinking about the auto parts
store
  business.  California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.




Comparing the lowest-price cars you can buy to one of the most
expensive luxury EVs you can buy seems hardly fair. The Mirage is a
really dreadful car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peZ8AQsZabI

The Spark is somewhat better. They sold an all-electric Spark in the
mid 2010s in several US states including CA as a compliance car it was
much better as an electric runabout with a ~100 mile quick-charge
battery pack, and with a mostly direct transplant of the Chevy Volt
motor into a tiny car it was absurdly powerful for its size. It was an
easy mod. But at the time it couldn\'t be sold at a profit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkT8rZj8YH0

But the MSRP on the lowest trim gas 2021 Spark on Chevy\'s site is
about 14k, don\'t know how anyone\'s selling it at a profit at 10.

       I tried to be  careful about the pricing but could\'ve messed up.
 That car wasn\'t
on Carvana this morning.   This one is on Auto Trader.
http://preview.alturl.com/5un4f>    $10,895
I didn\'t look at anything except price.   I\'ve spent a little time
looking at pickups
the last few days.  The manufacturers are sure proud of those things.
Yeah proud of the margins! The low and mid tier US-made trucks and SUVs
like Jeep are pretty bland and low-tech by comparison with other
vehicles at the same price point, but you can charge a premium for \'em
anyway.
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/29/2020 12:19 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 12:07 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/29/20 9:54 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 6:55 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise
according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it
does not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
   \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
   WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
   Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

      I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site.  The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS   hatchback,  $10287.   The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES,  $10,474.   The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman,   $18,017.   A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
     California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven
vehicles
starts in 2035.  There must be people thinking about the auto parts
store
  business.  California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.




Comparing the lowest-price cars you can buy to one of the most
expensive luxury EVs you can buy seems hardly fair. The Mirage is a
really dreadful car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peZ8AQsZabI

The Spark is somewhat better. They sold an all-electric Spark in the
mid 2010s in several US states including CA as a compliance car it
was much better as an electric runabout with a ~100 mile quick-charge
battery pack, and with a mostly direct transplant of the Chevy Volt
motor into a tiny car it was absurdly powerful for its size. It was
an easy mod. But at the time it couldn\'t be sold at a profit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkT8rZj8YH0

But the MSRP on the lowest trim gas 2021 Spark on Chevy\'s site is
about 14k, don\'t know how anyone\'s selling it at a profit at 10.

        I tried to be  careful about the pricing but could\'ve messed
up.   That car wasn\'t
on Carvana this morning.   This one is on Auto Trader.
http://preview.alturl.com/5un4f>    $10,895
I didn\'t look at anything except price.   I\'ve spent a little time
looking at pickups
the last few days.  The manufacturers are sure proud of those things.



Yeah proud of the margins! The low and mid tier US-made trucks and SUVs
like Jeep are pretty bland and low-tech by comparison with other
vehicles at the same price point, but you can charge a premium for \'em
anyway.
A 2021 Silverado crew cab with 2WD and a V8 is well over 40 grand with
none of the stuff like rear-cross traffic alert, blind spot monitoring,
etc. that comes standard these days on a car that costs 10k less, it\'s
all further options.
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/29/2020 12:25 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 12:19 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 12:07 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/29/20 9:54 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 6:55 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise
according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies,
Tesla wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric
vehicles exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles
of which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They
are car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000
truck from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or
whatever it does not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
   \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
   WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
   Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

      I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site.  The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS   hatchback,  $10287.   The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES,  $10,474.   The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman,   $18,017.   A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
     California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven
vehicles
starts in 2035.  There must be people thinking about the auto parts
store
  business.  California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.




Comparing the lowest-price cars you can buy to one of the most
expensive luxury EVs you can buy seems hardly fair. The Mirage is a
really dreadful car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peZ8AQsZabI

The Spark is somewhat better. They sold an all-electric Spark in the
mid 2010s in several US states including CA as a compliance car it
was much better as an electric runabout with a ~100 mile
quick-charge battery pack, and with a mostly direct transplant of
the Chevy Volt motor into a tiny car it was absurdly powerful for
its size. It was an easy mod. But at the time it couldn\'t be sold at
a profit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkT8rZj8YH0

But the MSRP on the lowest trim gas 2021 Spark on Chevy\'s site is
about 14k, don\'t know how anyone\'s selling it at a profit at 10.

        I tried to be  careful about the pricing but could\'ve messed
up.   That car wasn\'t
on Carvana this morning.   This one is on Auto Trader.
http://preview.alturl.com/5un4f>    $10,895
I didn\'t look at anything except price.   I\'ve spent a little time
looking at pickups
the last few days.  The manufacturers are sure proud of those things.



Yeah proud of the margins! The low and mid tier US-made trucks and
SUVs like Jeep are pretty bland and low-tech by comparison with other
vehicles at the same price point, but you can charge a premium for \'em
anyway.

A 2021 Silverado crew cab with 2WD and a V8 is well over 40 grand with
none of the stuff like rear-cross traffic alert, blind spot monitoring,
etc. that comes standard these days on a car that costs 10k less, it\'s
all further options.
Lol you don\'t even get fucking wheel-mounted controls for the
radio/infotainment system at that price, it\'s a further $1200 option.
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/29/2020 12:31 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 12:25 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 12:19 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 12:07 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/29/20 9:54 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 6:55 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise
according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies,
Tesla wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric
vehicles exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles
of which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They
are car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000
truck from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or
whatever it does not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
   \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
   WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority
of drivers?
   Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

      I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site.  The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS   hatchback,  $10287.   The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES,  $10,474.   The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman,   $18,017.   A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
     California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven
vehicles
starts in 2035.  There must be people thinking about the auto
parts store
  business.  California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.




Comparing the lowest-price cars you can buy to one of the most
expensive luxury EVs you can buy seems hardly fair. The Mirage is a
really dreadful car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peZ8AQsZabI

The Spark is somewhat better. They sold an all-electric Spark in
the mid 2010s in several US states including CA as a compliance car
it was much better as an electric runabout with a ~100 mile
quick-charge battery pack, and with a mostly direct transplant of
the Chevy Volt motor into a tiny car it was absurdly powerful for
its size. It was an easy mod. But at the time it couldn\'t be sold
at a profit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkT8rZj8YH0

But the MSRP on the lowest trim gas 2021 Spark on Chevy\'s site is
about 14k, don\'t know how anyone\'s selling it at a profit at 10.

        I tried to be  careful about the pricing but could\'ve messed
up.   That car wasn\'t
on Carvana this morning.   This one is on Auto Trader.
http://preview.alturl.com/5un4f>    $10,895
I didn\'t look at anything except price.   I\'ve spent a little time
looking at pickups
the last few days.  The manufacturers are sure proud of those things.



Yeah proud of the margins! The low and mid tier US-made trucks and
SUVs like Jeep are pretty bland and low-tech by comparison with other
vehicles at the same price point, but you can charge a premium for
\'em anyway.

A 2021 Silverado crew cab with 2WD and a V8 is well over 40 grand with
none of the stuff like rear-cross traffic alert, blind spot
monitoring, etc. that comes standard these days on a car that costs
10k less, it\'s all further options.

Lol you don\'t even get fucking wheel-mounted controls for the
radio/infotainment system at that price, it\'s a further $1200 option.
Or cruise control! 40k vehicle you gotta pay extra for cruise control.
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
  \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
  WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
  Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.
Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations.. Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:00:20 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 10:54 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 6:55 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise
according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it
does not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
   \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
   WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
   Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

      I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site.  The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS   hatchback,  $10287.   The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES,  $10,474.   The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman,   $18,017.   A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
     California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035.  There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
  business.  California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.




Comparing the lowest-price cars you can buy to one of the most expensive
luxury EVs you can buy seems hardly fair. The Mirage is a really
dreadful car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peZ8AQsZabI

The Spark is somewhat better. They sold an all-electric Spark in the mid
2010s in several US states including CA as a compliance car it was much
better as an electric runabout with a ~100 mile quick-charge battery
pack, and with a mostly direct transplant of the Chevy Volt motor into a
tiny car it was absurdly powerful for its size. It was an easy mod. But
at the time it couldn\'t be sold at a profit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkT8rZj8YH0

But the MSRP on the lowest trim gas 2021 Spark on Chevy\'s site is about
14k, don\'t know how anyone\'s selling it at a profit at 10.



The margins are very thin down there I don\'t know if GM is making any
more than 2k net off cars that cost 14k, probably less.
I think you are making up numbers. My understanding is the profit per car approaches zero as the price drops. Given the costs of operating a factory do not scale to zero as the production rate drops, auto makers will continue to pump out cars when the volumes drop and profits on the low end cars can go negative easily.

It\'s the dealers who don\'t have much choice in making profit on everything they sell. They have a hard time making it up in the quantity.

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/29/2020 12:43 PM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 11:00:20 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 10:54 AM, bitrex wrote:
On 10/29/2020 6:55 AM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise
according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it
does not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
   \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
   WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
   Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

      I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site.  The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS   hatchback,  $10287.   The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES,  $10,474.   The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman,   $18,017.   A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
     California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035.  There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
  business.  California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.




Comparing the lowest-price cars you can buy to one of the most expensive
luxury EVs you can buy seems hardly fair. The Mirage is a really
dreadful car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peZ8AQsZabI

The Spark is somewhat better. They sold an all-electric Spark in the mid
2010s in several US states including CA as a compliance car it was much
better as an electric runabout with a ~100 mile quick-charge battery
pack, and with a mostly direct transplant of the Chevy Volt motor into a
tiny car it was absurdly powerful for its size. It was an easy mod. But
at the time it couldn\'t be sold at a profit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkT8rZj8YH0

But the MSRP on the lowest trim gas 2021 Spark on Chevy\'s site is about
14k, don\'t know how anyone\'s selling it at a profit at 10.



The margins are very thin down there I don\'t know if GM is making any
more than 2k net off cars that cost 14k, probably less.

I think you are making up numbers. My understanding is the profit per car approaches zero as the price drops. Given the costs of operating a factory do not scale to zero as the production rate drops, auto makers will continue to pump out cars when the volumes drop and profits on the low end cars can go negative easily.

It\'s the dealers who don\'t have much choice in making profit on everything they sell. They have a hard time making it up in the quantity.
I don\'t think GM makes cars for years that they\'re not turning a profit
on, even if it\'s small. GM is ruthless about cutting money-losers. The
Volt wouldn\'t have even got a second generation in 2016 if they didn\'t
expect they\'d make a few bucks on it that way, and it wouldn\'t have
lasted through the 2019 MY if they hadn\'t. IMO
 
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