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OT. GM beats Tesla...

B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/31/2020 12:31 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 4:52:09 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/29/20 11:39 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
  \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
  WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
  Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations.. Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

Maybe places like restaurants and motels can put some charging
stations in. People use credit cards to pay for time or whatever. The
vehicles would be sitting still
anyhow.

Many hotels already have level 2 charging, maybe not enough of it though. It\'s not uncommon to find them full if you arrive late. Level 2 charging is not very costly. My tank of electrons at night rates is around $5 to $8 bucks. About the same as the cost of providing the free breakfast I expect.

To me the ideal EV would have enough range to drive for four hours at 70 mph, so 280 miles (not total, I mean useful range, so maybe 350 or 400 total) and charge in an hour so you can have a meal while stopped. Then you can get a charge overnight allowing good distance in a day. My car is only short of that by about 70 miles or 25%. I fully expect 350 or 400 miles to be the norm in a few years as improvements to batteries are made. Tesla is already making a change in battery chemistry that is primarily to get away from using more expensive elements in the fabrication like cobalt if I recall correctly. Still, there is tons and tons of research going on in that domain. Rapid improvements can be expected, even if only incremental, in not too much time the EV will be the main stream car for nearly everyone.

This is not such a radical thing to say really. It won\'t take any government mandates, just a bit of time and a few more small improvements.
My ideal EV has two seats, a 100-something mile battery pack, 0-60 time
of about 4-5 seconds.

Kinda like a Tesla Roadster but that doesn\'t cost $200,000. I\'ll be
waiting a long time I expect...
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/31/2020 12:54 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 7:27:40 PM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 10/30/2020 4:52 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/29/20 11:39 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise
according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise



Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
    \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
    WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of
drivers?
    Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

       I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site.  The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS   hatchback,  $10287.   The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES,  $10,474.   The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman,   $18,017.   A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
      California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven
vehicles
starts in 2035.  There must be people thinking about the auto parts
store
   business.  California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes  along with
luxury, electric SUVs.  But the principle is right.  In around 5 years
EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the
US at least.  I will probably be another five years for the number of
fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more
than 30%.  During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster
slowing adoption of EVs.  But EVs have inherently lower operating
costs.  So the trend will continue as the production costs of
batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their
vehicles longer.  But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil
fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic
will drop and drop rapidly.  Autos don\'t fare well with age.  At some
point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station
paradigm.  They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who
drives has to go their once a week to fill up.  With EVs most people
will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will
be around for some time, 30 minutes or so.  I suppose a lot of people
can use them like gas stations..  Pull up, plug in, get a cup of
coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your
way with another 75-100 miles of range.  The batteries charge fastest
and last longest if not charged fully.  20-50% gives a very fast
charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will
mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar
generation people seem to get so upset about.  In an 8 hour day most
EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

      Maybe places like restaurants and motels can put some charging
stations in.  People use credit cards to pay for time or whatever.   The
vehicles would be sitting still
anyhow.

There are a lot of restaurants, grocery stores, hotels, malls, etc. in
my area that do this already. There are dozens of charging stations like
that within 10 miles of me alone.

Problem is the Level 2 chargers take too long, even if they\'re free, and
with the fast chargers there either aren\'t enough cars that support them
on the road, or they\'re charging too much money, or both, so they\'re
rarely used.

The only public chargers I see that are in regular use and sometimes
full-up are ones at the train station, or ones that are right in the
middle of a downtown area.

Level 2 charging gives around 24 MPH for most EVs (assuming 6 kW and 4 M/kWh). So if you shop at the mall for an hour you get more charging than you likely used to make that trip. But no, level 2 at the super market is not going to give you the charge you need to do a daily commute from the burbs to the city... depending I guess.

I needed a charge once and the level 2 I tried to use was tied up with a brand new (temp tags with today\'s date) Leaf, but fully charged and just occupying the spot. There was no way to get the car disconnected even after a phone call to the charger company. So I had to run around looking for another charger. That was over a year ago and Tesla has a charging station a mile away. That works for me!
Lol you called the charger company and expected them to do something.

I called a mall property manager one time soon after I got the Volt to
complain about people parking their gas cars in the charger spots he
more or less told me to piss off. I don\'t bother calling anyone about
that sort of stuff anymore there\'s no one to call, nobody cares.
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/31/2020 12:31 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 4:52:09 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/29/20 11:39 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
  \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
  WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
  Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations.. Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

Maybe places like restaurants and motels can put some charging
stations in. People use credit cards to pay for time or whatever. The
vehicles would be sitting still
anyhow.

Many hotels already have level 2 charging, maybe not enough of it though. It\'s not uncommon to find them full if you arrive late. Level 2 charging is not very costly. My tank of electrons at night rates is around $5 to $8 bucks. About the same as the cost of providing the free breakfast I expect.

To me the ideal EV would have enough range to drive for four hours at 70 mph, so 280 miles (not total, I mean useful range, so maybe 350 or 400 total) and charge in an hour so you can have a meal while stopped. Then you can get a charge overnight allowing good distance in a day. My car is only short of that by about 70 miles or 25%. I fully expect 350 or 400 miles to be the norm in a few years as improvements to batteries are made. Tesla is already making a change in battery chemistry that is primarily to get away from using more expensive elements in the fabrication like cobalt if I recall correctly. Still, there is tons and tons of research going on in that domain. Rapid improvements can be expected, even if only incremental, in not too much time the EV will be the main stream car for nearly everyone.

This is not such a radical thing to say really. It won\'t take any government mandates, just a bit of time and a few more small improvements.
Four hours of driving sounds dreadful, I\'ve probably only done it a
couple times in my life that I recall. I drove from Boston to eastern
Ohio one time when I was in my early 20s in winter it was horrible. Yeah
it was because of a girl don\'t judge I know better these days.

Anyway I have read in olden times there was a thing called a \"through
sleeper\", you could just get on a railroad sleeping car in Boston or NYC
and go to bed and you\'d be in Florida early the next afternoon it sounds
amazing, particularly for pandemic-world.
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 12:55:52 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
On 10/31/2020 12:31 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Friday, October 30, 2020 at 4:52:09 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/29/20 11:39 AM, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
  \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
  WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
  Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm.. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations.. Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

Maybe places like restaurants and motels can put some charging
stations in. People use credit cards to pay for time or whatever. The
vehicles would be sitting still
anyhow.

Many hotels already have level 2 charging, maybe not enough of it though. It\'s not uncommon to find them full if you arrive late. Level 2 charging is not very costly. My tank of electrons at night rates is around $5 to $8 bucks. About the same as the cost of providing the free breakfast I expect.

To me the ideal EV would have enough range to drive for four hours at 70 mph, so 280 miles (not total, I mean useful range, so maybe 350 or 400 total) and charge in an hour so you can have a meal while stopped. Then you can get a charge overnight allowing good distance in a day. My car is only short of that by about 70 miles or 25%. I fully expect 350 or 400 miles to be the norm in a few years as improvements to batteries are made. Tesla is already making a change in battery chemistry that is primarily to get away from using more expensive elements in the fabrication like cobalt if I recall correctly. Still, there is tons and tons of research going on in that domain. Rapid improvements can be expected, even if only incremental, in not too much time the EV will be the main stream car for nearly everyone.

This is not such a radical thing to say really. It won\'t take any government mandates, just a bit of time and a few more small improvements.


My ideal EV has two seats, a 100-something mile battery pack, 0-60 time
of about 4-5 seconds.

Kinda like a Tesla Roadster but that doesn\'t cost $200,000. I\'ll be
waiting a long time I expect...
Add four more seats and 200 miles and you described my X. Well, it\'s not *that* slow. So I guess it doesn\'t meet any of your requirements.

I\'d like to have an electric truck with a 350 mile range and not a monster like a full sized pickup and not bizarro like the Tesla \"thing\". With the huge emphasis on size with all the US makers it will probably take an Asia company to provide it.

Not sure I\'d buy an EV from a non-Tesla company as yet. Tesla not only has the best batteries, they do the best job of protecting the batteries. The Leaf is notorious for letting the battery get too hot causing a shorter life. I don\'t know about all the others, but most EV makers need a few years to play catch up. Maybe by 2024 or \'25 the market will be a bit more level.

--

Rick C.

+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
E

Ed Lee

Guest
> This is not such a radical thing to say really. It won\'t take any government mandates, just a bit of time and a few more small improvements.

Sometime it needs government actions. I wrote to CalTran (CA Dept of Trans) years ago about putting chargers in rest stops. I told them rest stops are the perfect places to charge EV and discharge fluids from drivers. They haven\'t done the one i mentioned, but several other chargers in rest areas are \"coming soon\". Hopefully, very soon.
 
S

server

Guest
On Sat, 31 Oct 2020 11:56:00 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
<edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not such a radical thing to say really. It won\'t take any government mandates, just a bit of time and a few more small improvements.

Sometime it needs government actions. I wrote to CalTran (CA Dept of Trans) years ago about putting chargers in rest stops. I told them rest stops are the perfect places to charge EV and discharge fluids from drivers. They haven\'t done the one i mentioned, but several other chargers in rest areas are \"coming soon\". Hopefully, very soon.
Envision big, long power lines. As is, rest stops don\'t use a lot of
power.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
 
E

Ed Lee

Guest
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 2:29:19 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 31 Oct 2020 11:56:00 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not such a radical thing to say really. It won\'t take any government mandates, just a bit of time and a few more small improvements.

Sometime it needs government actions. I wrote to CalTran (CA Dept of Trans) years ago about putting chargers in rest stops. I told them rest stops are the perfect places to charge EV and discharge fluids from drivers. They haven\'t done the one i mentioned, but several other chargers in rest areas are \"coming soon\". Hopefully, very soon.

Envision big, long power lines. As is, rest stops don\'t use a lot of
power.
That\'s why it takes lots of planning. Solar panels and battery buffers are possible solutions. Fortunately, they are usually in the middle of nowhere, cheap lands for solar farms. By the way, although some argue that free power is socialism. That\'s the quickest way to get it done. The critical areas are usually funded by federal money. It\'s easier to just fund it out of operating funds. Figuring how and what to \"charge for charging\" almost need an act of congress.
 
S

server

Guest
On Sat, 31 Oct 2020 15:10:03 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
<edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 2:29:19 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 31 Oct 2020 11:56:00 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not such a radical thing to say really. It won\'t take any government mandates, just a bit of time and a few more small improvements.

Sometime it needs government actions. I wrote to CalTran (CA Dept of Trans) years ago about putting chargers in rest stops. I told them rest stops are the perfect places to charge EV and discharge fluids from drivers. They haven\'t done the one i mentioned, but several other chargers in rest areas are \"coming soon\". Hopefully, very soon.

Envision big, long power lines. As is, rest stops don\'t use a lot of
power.

That\'s why it takes lots of planning. Solar panels and battery buffers are possible solutions.
If you want outrageously expensive, unreliable charging stations. I
suppose they could have a lot full of diesel generators out back for
nights and rainy/cloudy/snowy months.


>Fortunately, they are usually in the middle of nowhere, cheap lands for solar farms.

Chop down all the trees. Nobody likes trees.

>By the way, although some argue that free power is socialism. That\'s the quickest way to get it done.

Get what done?

The critical areas are usually funded by federal money. It\'s easier to just fund it out of operating funds. Figuring how and what to \"charge for charging\" almost need an act of congress.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard
 
E

Ed Lee

Guest
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 3:26:40 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 31 Oct 2020 15:10:03 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 2:29:19 PM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 31 Oct 2020 11:56:00 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not such a radical thing to say really. It won\'t take any government mandates, just a bit of time and a few more small improvements.

Sometime it needs government actions. I wrote to CalTran (CA Dept of Trans) years ago about putting chargers in rest stops. I told them rest stops are the perfect places to charge EV and discharge fluids from drivers. They haven\'t done the one i mentioned, but several other chargers in rest areas are \"coming soon\". Hopefully, very soon.

Envision big, long power lines. As is, rest stops don\'t use a lot of
power.

That\'s why it takes lots of planning. Solar panels and battery buffers are possible solutions.
If you want outrageously expensive, unreliable charging stations. I
suppose they could have a lot full of diesel generators out back for
nights and rainy/cloudy/snowy months.
Fortunately, they are usually in the middle of nowhere, cheap lands for solar farms.
Chop down all the trees. Nobody likes trees.
Invisible trees? There are more cars than trees on I-58 and I-15. And no shortage of sun-lights. Yes, backup generators might still be necessary sometimes.

By the way, although some argue that free power is socialism. That\'s the quickest way to get it done.
Get what done?
Get the chargers installed.

> >The critical areas are usually funded by federal money. It\'s easier to just fund it out of operating funds. Figuring how and what to \"charge for charging\" almost need an act of congress.
 
F

Flyguy

Guest
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 9:39:22 AM UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:
On Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 6:56:09 AM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 10/28/20 4:32 PM, Robert Baer wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 10/28/2020 3:47 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Tesla\'s AutoPilot is a distant second to GM\'s Super Cruise according to
Consumer Reports.
https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/vehicles/consumer-reports-tesla-autopilot-super-cruise


Tesla and GM have somewhat different operating philosophies, Tesla
wants the world to switch to driving luxury electric vehicles
exclusively.

GM wants to sell the world a wide assortment of luxury vehicles of
which electric vehicles are just one type you can buy. They are
car-agnostic, ideally everyone in America will buy a $85,000 truck
from GM, whether it\'s gas or electric or hydrogen or whatever it does
not matter. One of each would be best, actually.
  \"Luxury\" schmucks-ery.
  WTF is wrong with a \"garden\" variety design for the majority of drivers?
  Maybe even a target price below $10,000....

I took a quick look on the Carvana vehicle sales site. The
cheapest I found was a
2021 Chevy Spark LS hatchback, $10287. The cheapest sedan was a
2020 Mitsubishi Mirage G4 ES, $10,474. The cheapest pickup was a
2020 Dodge Ram 1500 Tradesman, $18,017. A 2020 Tesla Model X
Long Range with 11,300 miles is for sale on Auto Trader for $96588.
California\'s ban on selling new internal combustion driven vehicles
starts in 2035. There must be people thinking about the auto parts store
business. California mechanics might be king in twenty years or so
unless this silly ban is lifted.

Not sure why you list prices of gasoline econoboxes along with luxury, electric SUVs. But the principle is right. In around 5 years EVs will have achieved half of the total passenger car sales, in the US at least. I will probably be another five years for the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road to drop significantly, say by more than 30%. During that time gasoline prices will be in the dumpster slowing adoption of EVs. But EVs have inherently lower operating costs. So the trend will continue as the production costs of batteries drop.

The demand for mechanics will initially increase as people keep their vehicles longer. But at some point ~10 years as the number of fossil fueled vehicles on the road drop the demand for that type of mechanic will drop and drop rapidly. Autos don\'t fare well with age. At some point they get replaced simply because people don\'t like unreliability.

That\'s when the EV conversion will essentially be complete.

I still can\'t figure out what will happen to the gas station paradigm. They do so much more than sell gas because everyone who drives has to go their once a week to fill up. With EVs most people will never go there and of those who can\'t charge at home, they will be around for some time, 30 minutes or so. I suppose a lot of people can use them like gas stations.. Pull up, plug in, get a cup of coffee pick up the morning paper, eat your egg sandwich and be on your way with another 75-100 miles of range. The batteries charge fastest and last longest if not charged fully. 20-50% gives a very fast charge, up to 2 kWH per minute in my car.

Or maybe level 2 charging will become so ubiquitous that charging will mostly be done at work and while shopping using the excess solar generation people seem to get so upset about. In an 8 hour day most EVs can be fully charged in a work day.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
It used to be that you libtards were pushing mass transit as the holy grail of reducing traffic congestion and pollution. And it made a lot of sense - our daughter used it in Seattle until she had to work from home. And it didn\'t cost her a dime because her employer gave her a transit pass. But now it is back to individual electric cars that take up exactly the same space on freeways as gas-powered cars. The most practical electric car is a hybrid, the Toyota Prius Prime:
https://www.motorbiscuit.com/the-only-3-electric-cars-with-strong-reliability-ratings-for-2019/
And you can take it on real road trips w/o any range anxiety. No, gas-powered cars are going to be around for a LONG TIME!
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 2:56:07 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
This is not such a radical thing to say really. It won\'t take any government mandates, just a bit of time and a few more small improvements.

Sometime it needs government actions. I wrote to CalTran (CA Dept of Trans) years ago about putting chargers in rest stops. I told them rest stops are the perfect places to charge EV and discharge fluids from drivers. They haven\'t done the one i mentioned, but several other chargers in rest areas are \"coming soon\". Hopefully, very soon.
I am in a position of having free access to the best EV charging network in the world. If you drive any other brand of EV or even if you have a Tesla, but the charging is not free, you will have a rather different experience.

Yes, I agree that chargers at rest stops would be useful. But there really aren\'t enough rest stops and I seriously doubt they can ever have enough chargers at one to make much of a difference. I believe you are the guy who was driving a very limited range EV and charging every 50 miles or so. So I\'m not sure your perspective is very relevant to most EV owners or potential owners since your experience is so far from the norm.

But my government involvement comment was about the rate of providing charging facilities. It won\'t require government involvement other than perhaps legislating that apartments and condos allow for facilities in some manner.. But with enough time even those will respond to market pressures. If you are driving an EV you will be much more willing to live in a place that has available charging than one that does not.

The one Supercharger I am disappointment in is near here. A county seat and largest city in nearly 50 miles in any direction would be Culpeper. It is also nicely centered between charging at Haymarket and Charlottesville, about 50 miles from either. It also is a connector with roads converging from six directions. But they put a Supercharger in Madison, barely a whistle stop, 10 miles to the south with much less access from anywhere but the one main road. Seems they have a Sheetz while Culpeper does not.

The power of the Sheetz! I expect Sheetz is giving them a good deal on the thing since Sheetz likely makes money on the pit stops even if they give away the electricity. My understanding is they make very, very little on the retail aspect of the gasoline. It\'s just there to get people to come inside.

--

Rick C.

++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 5:29:19 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 31 Oct 2020 11:56:00 -0700 (PDT), Ed Lee
edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

This is not such a radical thing to say really. It won\'t take any government mandates, just a bit of time and a few more small improvements.

Sometime it needs government actions. I wrote to CalTran (CA Dept of Trans) years ago about putting chargers in rest stops. I told them rest stops are the perfect places to charge EV and discharge fluids from drivers. They haven\'t done the one i mentioned, but several other chargers in rest areas are \"coming soon\". Hopefully, very soon.

Envision big, long power lines. As is, rest stops don\'t use a lot of
power.
Funny this guy. He thinks that rest stops are a long way from civilization.. I guess that\'s why they don\'t have chargers in Quartzsite, AZ. Oh, wait, they DO! Talk about the middle of nowhere. I hope you enjoy hamburgers. That\'s the only restaurant food they have.

--

Rick C.

--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
E

Ed Lee

Guest
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 5:38:35 PM UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 2:56:07 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
This is not such a radical thing to say really. It won\'t take any government mandates, just a bit of time and a few more small improvements.

Sometime it needs government actions. I wrote to CalTran (CA Dept of Trans) years ago about putting chargers in rest stops. I told them rest stops are the perfect places to charge EV and discharge fluids from drivers. They haven\'t done the one i mentioned, but several other chargers in rest areas are \"coming soon\". Hopefully, very soon.
I am in a position of having free access to the best EV charging network in the world. If you drive any other brand of EV or even if you have a Tesla, but the charging is not free, you will have a rather different experience.

Yes, I agree that chargers at rest stops would be useful. But there really aren\'t enough rest stops and I seriously doubt they can ever have enough chargers at one to make much of a difference. I believe you are the guy who was driving a very limited range EV and charging every 50 miles or so. So I\'m not sure your perspective is very relevant to most EV owners or potential owners since your experience is so far from the norm.
I wish you are right and Tesla drivers don\'t need public charger. But when they are there, they usually hog them up for long hours. And we can\'t plan public charging network just for Tesla drivers.
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 9:09:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 5:38:35 PM UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 2:56:07 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
This is not such a radical thing to say really. It won\'t take any government mandates, just a bit of time and a few more small improvements.

Sometime it needs government actions. I wrote to CalTran (CA Dept of Trans) years ago about putting chargers in rest stops. I told them rest stops are the perfect places to charge EV and discharge fluids from drivers. They haven\'t done the one i mentioned, but several other chargers in rest areas are \"coming soon\". Hopefully, very soon.
I am in a position of having free access to the best EV charging network in the world. If you drive any other brand of EV or even if you have a Tesla, but the charging is not free, you will have a rather different experience.

Yes, I agree that chargers at rest stops would be useful. But there really aren\'t enough rest stops and I seriously doubt they can ever have enough chargers at one to make much of a difference. I believe you are the guy who was driving a very limited range EV and charging every 50 miles or so. So I\'m not sure your perspective is very relevant to most EV owners or potential owners since your experience is so far from the norm.

I wish you are right and Tesla drivers don\'t need public charger. But when they are there, they usually hog them up for long hours. And we can\'t plan public charging network just for Tesla drivers.
Not sure what you are talking about. Why do Tesla drivers \"hog\" chargers longer than anyone else?

--

Rick C.

--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
M

Michael Terrell

Guest
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 12:58:53 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:
Lol you called the charger company and expected them to do something.

I called a mall property manager one time soon after I got the Volt to
complain about people parking their gas cars in the charger spots he
more or less told me to piss off. I don\'t bother calling anyone about
that sort of stuff anymore there\'s no one to call, nobody cares.
If you talked to him like you do here, I don\'t doubt it.
 
E

Ed Lee

Guest
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 7:27:49 PM UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 9:09:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 5:38:35 PM UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 2:56:07 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
This is not such a radical thing to say really. It won\'t take any government mandates, just a bit of time and a few more small improvements.

Sometime it needs government actions. I wrote to CalTran (CA Dept of Trans) years ago about putting chargers in rest stops. I told them rest stops are the perfect places to charge EV and discharge fluids from drivers. They haven\'t done the one i mentioned, but several other chargers in rest areas are \"coming soon\". Hopefully, very soon.
I am in a position of having free access to the best EV charging network in the world. If you drive any other brand of EV or even if you have a Tesla, but the charging is not free, you will have a rather different experience.

Yes, I agree that chargers at rest stops would be useful. But there really aren\'t enough rest stops and I seriously doubt they can ever have enough chargers at one to make much of a difference. I believe you are the guy who was driving a very limited range EV and charging every 50 miles or so. So I\'m not sure your perspective is very relevant to most EV owners or potential owners since your experience is so far from the norm.

I wish you are right and Tesla drivers don\'t need public charger. But when they are there, they usually hog them up for long hours. And we can\'t plan public charging network just for Tesla drivers.

Not sure what you are talking about. Why do Tesla drivers \"hog\" chargers longer than anyone else?
because they have bigger battery.
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 11:25:11 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 7:27:49 PM UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 9:09:43 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 5:38:35 PM UTC-7, Ricketty C wrote:
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 2:56:07 PM UTC-4, Ed Lee wrote:
This is not such a radical thing to say really. It won\'t take any government mandates, just a bit of time and a few more small improvements.

Sometime it needs government actions. I wrote to CalTran (CA Dept of Trans) years ago about putting chargers in rest stops. I told them rest stops are the perfect places to charge EV and discharge fluids from drivers. They haven\'t done the one i mentioned, but several other chargers in rest areas are \"coming soon\". Hopefully, very soon.
I am in a position of having free access to the best EV charging network in the world. If you drive any other brand of EV or even if you have a Tesla, but the charging is not free, you will have a rather different experience.

Yes, I agree that chargers at rest stops would be useful. But there really aren\'t enough rest stops and I seriously doubt they can ever have enough chargers at one to make much of a difference. I believe you are the guy who was driving a very limited range EV and charging every 50 miles or so. So I\'m not sure your perspective is very relevant to most EV owners or potential owners since your experience is so far from the norm.

I wish you are right and Tesla drivers don\'t need public charger. But when they are there, they usually hog them up for long hours. And we can\'t plan public charging network just for Tesla drivers.

Not sure what you are talking about. Why do Tesla drivers \"hog\" chargers longer than anyone else?

because they have bigger battery.
If you are talking about level 2 chargers then they take longer to charge, but if you think about it for a minute, that still doesn\'t mean they use the chargers more because it also means they come to the chargers less often.

The only reason why they would be \"hogging\" the chargers is because they have sold so many of them and they are getting driven more than other brands of EVs. The total time Teslas are on the chargers is not related to the size of the batteries. It\'s related to the number of miles the cars are driven. If you car has a bigger gas tank does it mean you will spend more time at the pump? What if you had a gas tank a tiny fraction of what it holds, does that mean you can fill in 10 seconds once a week? No, it means you barely make it to work and have to fill up before coming home. So you end up spending more time at the gas stations because of the time it takes to connect to the pump and get your credit card processed.

Currently Teslas are better EVs than others because the company spent over 10 years and billions of dollars on designing them. After some years the other car companies will catch up. That\'s inevitable. That\'s why I won\'t buy their stock at the current price. It isn\'t over priced for what the company will be in a few years, but it doesn\'t leave room for continued growth in the market cap. By the time the company catches up with the expectations by the market, the other auto makers will be selling other very good EVs and Tesla will be one of the big four US automakers. But where can they go from there? As this thread headline indicates, GM is already ahead in autonomous capabilities. You make money on every car you sell maybe, but you get filthy stinking rich selling software features for the cars. Ask Bill Gates if there\'s money in software.

It is interesting that the other automakers discounted Tesla so heavily. It reminds me a bit of the digital watch paradigm shift. Timex adapted, but many other companies never made the transition. I\'m not sure all the automakers will make the EV transition. We\'ll see.

--

Rick C.

-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/31/2020 11:23 PM, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 12:58:53 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

Lol you called the charger company and expected them to do something.

I called a mall property manager one time soon after I got the Volt to
complain about people parking their gas cars in the charger spots he
more or less told me to piss off. I don\'t bother calling anyone about
that sort of stuff anymore there\'s no one to call, nobody cares.

If you talked to him like you do here, I don\'t doubt it.
Hey, you\'re not much of sweetheart yourself, sometimes.

Anyway, it\'s a bit of an entitlement mentality to believe anyone is
going to remove a paying customer from a charging spot just cuz they\'ve
been there longer than one would like.

Some jurisdictions or properties will remove ICE cars from those spots
because that person is just a jerk or can\'t read or both and it\'s a
decent revenue stream for the jurisdiction, the offending party really
doesn\'t have much of a leg to stand on other than claiming to be
illiterate. but most places try not to offend the market segment of the
service, even when they aren\'t entirely courteous about how they use it.

Nobody is fining or towing a car for staying too long unless demand is
really high, and that\'s not most chargers. The ChargePoint phone reps
like most phone reps don\'t have the power to do anything much, if it\'s
on private property like a mall what happens to cars there is entirely
in the hands of the business or property owner ChargePoint has no power.
and they\'re not in the business of pissing off customers by
disconnecting or removing them without their consent.
 
B

bitrex

Guest
On 10/31/2020 11:23 PM, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 12:58:53 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

Lol you called the charger company and expected them to do something.

I called a mall property manager one time soon after I got the Volt to
complain about people parking their gas cars in the charger spots he
more or less told me to piss off. I don\'t bother calling anyone about
that sort of stuff anymore there\'s no one to call, nobody cares.

If you talked to him like you do here, I don\'t doubt it.
No, I don\'t make demands, I call up and ask, as Mom always said it never
hurts to ask, all they can say is no. And you call up and ask and you
get the impression they\'re annoyed you\'re even asking. That is all...
 
R

Ricketty C

Guest
On Sunday, November 1, 2020 at 1:56:39 AM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:
On 10/31/2020 11:23 PM, Michael Terrell wrote:
On Saturday, October 31, 2020 at 12:58:53 AM UTC-4, bitrex wrote:

Lol you called the charger company and expected them to do something.

I called a mall property manager one time soon after I got the Volt to
complain about people parking their gas cars in the charger spots he
more or less told me to piss off. I don\'t bother calling anyone about
that sort of stuff anymore there\'s no one to call, nobody cares.

If you talked to him like you do here, I don\'t doubt it.


Hey, you\'re not much of sweetheart yourself, sometimes.

Anyway, it\'s a bit of an entitlement mentality to believe anyone is
going to remove a paying customer from a charging spot just cuz they\'ve
been there longer than one would like.

Some jurisdictions or properties will remove ICE cars from those spots
because that person is just a jerk or can\'t read or both and it\'s a
decent revenue stream for the jurisdiction, the offending party really
doesn\'t have much of a leg to stand on other than claiming to be
illiterate. but most places try not to offend the market segment of the
service, even when they aren\'t entirely courteous about how they use it.

Nobody is fining or towing a car for staying too long unless demand is
really high, and that\'s not most chargers. The ChargePoint phone reps
like most phone reps don\'t have the power to do anything much, if it\'s
on private property like a mall what happens to cars there is entirely
in the hands of the business or property owner ChargePoint has no power.
and they\'re not in the business of pissing off customers by
disconnecting or removing them without their consent.
By \"nobody\" you mean Tesla, right? That\'s exactly what they do. They give you 10 minutes and then you start paying $0.50 a minute after your charge is completed.

I was hooked up to a level 2 charger with a Tesla adapter and disconnected. The adapter stayed on the car and the cable was not locked to anything! Anyone could disconnect me. I don\'t think that can happen with the Tesla Superchargers, but I\'m not sure about the Tesla destination (level 2) chargers.

There are any number of reports of people doing just that, disconnecting charging cars. Some people are just strange.

--

Rick C.

-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
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