OT: Civil War Narrowly Averted in Schiavo Case

Frankly, I think history shows that it IS the wisest document ever
written. I am open to learning of a more successful one.

Is this the original Constitution or do you include some or all of the
Amendments, the 18th for example?

Hi John,

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to dive into specific instances, (I
will if you insist <g&gt when all that does is create a political war. I
am not in favor of any of the amendments beyond the tenth, so I have
little to say about any beyond that point.

Off the top of my head, those beyond the original 10 are examples of the
point I was wanting to make. The Constitution is hosed, and without it,
there is no rule of law in the government, so suddenly, we are watching
the Federal Government get involved in things that are of no concern to
them by definition. Prohibition was none of its business in the first
place, so its hard to defend actions for or against it on a federal level.
The Constitution wisely places severe limits on the powers of the federal
government. Now that those controls have been removed, we have a 9000
pound gorilla running roughshod over the US, and the rest of the world.
The Constitution does not authorize the actions this nation continues to
take against other countries. I am sorry that it has deteriorated to this
point. It does not even authorize the actions of 80% of the government
towards the states.

I don't think very many people today have a clue what the Constitution is,
how it works, and what it really is supposed to have created.

JB

 

[Robert Monsen]

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 14:40:40 -0700, Bob Monsen <rcsurname@comast.net
wrote:

[snip]

I don't want to get into a brawl here, but analysis after the fact of the
2000 election pointed out that Gore would have won Florida had the US
supreme court not overruled the Florida supreme court. The US supreme
court stepped in, against precedent, to interfere with state politics,
simply because a majority of them wanted Bush to win.


[snip]

Where did you come up with this hare-brained "analysis"?

I must have read it in some 'hare-brained' liberal rag.

Everything I've seen says Bush won even more handily.

Right, lots of media outlets published the story that the recount would
have favored Bush. They were using an analysis that ignored 'overvotes',
which should have been included under Florida law. They were thus
misrepresenting their own result, after the fact, probably due to the
fear of riots that would have ensued. See the link below.

Gawwwd! Can you imagine anything as bad as Gore Booooor ?

You know the curse: "May you live in interesting times."

Here are a few references...

Who won:

http://www.commondreams.org/views01/1115-02.htm

The supreme court role:

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20010205&c=1&s=bugliosi

Pseudo-chinese proverbs:

http://www.noblenet.org/reference/inter.htm

--
Regards,
Robert Monsen

"Your Highness, I have no need of this hypothesis."
- Pierre Laplace (1749-1827), to Napoleon,
on why his works on celestial mechanics make no mention of God.

 

[keith]

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 08:01:59 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 22:32:24 -0400, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 20:55:44 +0000, Richard the Dreaded Libertarian wrote:

[snip]

and now are embarrassed and trying to weasel
out of responsibility for your collusion in ushering in the theocracy,
is not true.

Theocracy, my left nut. You simply haven't *one*.

Ignorant dupe.

Gore-the-bore fathead.

Keith, You sure have a way with flattery ;-)

So I've been told, on any number of occaisions. It's a good thing I have
such "liberal" friends. ;-)

--
Keith

 

[keith]

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 22:21:29 +0000, Ken Smith wrote:

In article <pan.2005.04.06.02.35.16.756961@att.bizzzz>,
keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
[....]
The DemonRats have shown that they can *always* waste more than we can
produce.

So have the republicans. Now you've got both houses and a pres. all from
the same party. There isn't the usual party bickering to restrain
spending.

You really don't pay attention, do you?

Just on Tuesday Bush implied that the US government bonds backing the
social security system are not as good as piles of dollar bills, so not
only are they spending like they will bankrupt the country, they are
talking about actually declaring it.

I don't know what you heard, but he's right. A pile of IOUs in the SS
"trust fund" isn't worth shit. Adding taxes, as the DemonRats want to do,
will only add money to the government *now* and more useless paper to the
SS "trust" fund. The *only* way out of the DemonRat's (going back to FDR)
is to *privatize* retirement. Sure it's going to cost perhaps a
terabuk, but the alternative is even worse.

--
Keith

 

[keith]

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 23:24:21 +0000, Richard the Dreaded Libertarian wrote:

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 22:21:29 +0000, Ken Smith wrote:

In article <pan.2005.04.06.02.35.16.756961@att.bizzzz>, keith
krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
[....]
The DemonRats have shown that they can *always* waste more than we can
produce.

So have the republicans. Now you've got both houses and a pres. all from
the same party. There isn't the usual party bickering to restrain
spending.

Just on Tuesday Bush implied that the US government bonds backing the
social security system are not as good as piles of dollar bills, so not
only are they spending like they will bankrupt the country, they are
talking about actually declaring it.

I was kind of sickened when I learned that the so-called "401K 'retirement
plan'" is based on playing the f**king stock market.

Then you really should learn more of what you're talking about. I'd be
tickled *pink* if my SSI paymnets went into a matress! If that same money
was put in the stock market I'd be retired with my toes in the sand now.
That is no lie!

--
Keith

 

[keith]

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 17:23:39 +0100, John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Keith Williams <krw@att.bizzzz
wrote (in <MPG.1cbdd04e2ab730269899a8@news.individual.net&gt about 'OT:
Civil War Narrowly Averted in Schiavo Case', on Wed, 6 Apr 2005:

A direct democracy was seen to be a dangerous thing.

Of course you know all this, but want to make some point. ...not sure
what it is though. Perhaps you just want to say what you mean?

I want to challenge your view that democracy is dangerous.

Other than what "learning" has had to say, search on "tyranny of
democracy".

You don't say why.

I thought it to be "self-evident". ;-)

And my remark about 'soviet' was a joke.

I know you're one of the intelligent, but couldn't figure out where you
were coming from. The US is a *federation*, not a kingdom, or whatever
you call youselves these days. ;-)

--
Keith

 

In <pan.2005.04.07.01.31.50.78458@att.bizzzz>, on 04/06/05
at 09:31 PM, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> said:

I don't know what you heard, but he's right. A pile of IOUs in the SS
"trust fund" isn't worth shit. Adding taxes, as the DemonRats want to
do, will only add money to the government *now* and more useless paper to
the SS "trust" fund. The *only* way out of the DemonRat's (going back to
FDR) is to *privatize* retirement. Sure it's going to cost perhaps a
terabuk, but the alternative is even worse.

Since the Supreme Idiots have already ruled several times that social
security is a tax and not a retirement benefit, it doesn't matter if it
runs out of money. The black robed tyrants have declared that no American
citizen has any right to collect social security benefits, ever, for any
reason. Its just a gift that Congress gives us if they choose to, so the
government can just throw up their hands, and walk away once it goes
broke.

JB

 

[keith]

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 21:51:16 +0100, John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that learning@learning.com wrote (in
42543883$1$woehfu$mr2ice@news.aros.net&gt about 'OT: Civil War Narrowly
Averted in Schiavo Case', on Wed, 6 Apr 2005:
Well, you are most welcome to your position, but you will find that
many consider the Constitution to be inspired by God, so yes, even if
it is "old" I have not seen anything better come along.

Frankly, I think history shows that it IS the wisest document ever
written. I am open to learning of a more successful one.

Is this the original Constitution or do you include some or all of the
Amendments, the 18th for example?

Amendment XXI took care of that mistake rather quickly.

....and your point is?

--
Keith

 

[keith]

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 14:40:40 -0700, Bob Monsen wrote:

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 22:44:04 -0400, keith wrote:

On Tue, 05 Apr 2005 13:30:33 -0700, Robert Monsen wrote:

John Woodgate wrote:
I read in sci.electronics.design that Clarence_A <no@No.com> wrote (in
CcA4e.9602$FN4.804@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com&gt about 'OT: Civil War
Narrowly Averted in Schiavo Case', on Tue, 5 Apr 2005:

America is not and never has been a "Democracy."


What about 'government of/for/by the People'? 'By the People' is
surely 'democracy'?

It's formally defined as a representative democracy. The people don't
vote, they vote for the people who vote. This leads to wierd anomalies,
such as George W Bush, who lost the 'popular' vote in 2000, but won the
election due to quirks in the law, and a few friends in high places.

Horse-shit! No "quirks in the law", nor "a few friends in high places".
The constitution was (finally) followed.



I don't want to get into a brawl here, but analysis after the fact of the
2000 election pointed out that Gore would have won Florida had the US
supreme court not overruled the Florida supreme court.

You are a real fool. SCOTUS simply ruled that the Florida Supreme corut
didn't have any standing. The election was out of the court's hands.

The US supreme court stepped in, against precedent, to interfere with state
politics, simply because a majority of them wanted Bush to win.

You're simply wrong. SCOTUS decided that it was the law (as decided by
the state legislature on the date the election was held) that mattered.
The state courts had no right to trump state election law, particularly
after the fact.

...but if you want to continue to slog on in your hate and stupor,
please don't let me stop you. You folks need someone to hate.

Are you offering yourself as a candidate? I don't think you have the
credentials. Here is the job description:

I have the credentials. I am a natural born citizen of the US of at
least 35 years of age.

<nonsense clipped>

--
Keith

 

[Rich The Newsgropup Wacko]

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 19:43:02 -0600, learning wrote:

In <pan.2005.04.07.01.31.50.78458@att.bizzzz>, on 04/06/05
at 09:31 PM, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> said:

I don't know what you heard, but he's right. A pile of IOUs in the SS
"trust fund" isn't worth shit. Adding taxes, as the DemonRats want to
do, will only add money to the government *now* and more useless paper to
the SS "trust" fund. The *only* way out of the DemonRat's (going back to
FDR) is to *privatize* retirement. Sure it's going to cost perhaps a
terabuk, but the alternative is even worse.

Since the Supreme Idiots have already ruled several times that social
security is a tax and not a retirement benefit, it doesn't matter if it
runs out of money. The black robed tyrants have declared that no American
citizen has any right to collect social security benefits, ever, for any
reason. Its just a gift that Congress gives us if they choose to, so the
government can just throw up their hands, and walk away once it goes
broke.

To them, it's not that big a deal - the congresscritters have their beds
quite well-feathered in any case, so why should they care?
--
Cheers!
Rich
---
cursor address, n: "Hello, cursor!" -- Stan Kelly-Bootle, "The Devil's DP Dictionary"

 

[Roger Johansson]

keith wrote:

The US is a federation, not a kingdom, or whatever
you call youselves these days. ;-)

Germany is a federation just like USA, but it is very different in many
ways.

Somebody famous (Mark Twain?) once said:

"A good society is where a beautiful woman, dressed in only a valuable
diamond necklace, can walk through the center of the city at night,
without any problems."

In USA she would probably be raped, robbed or at least arrested by the
police.

In Germany she would have a good chance of making it through the city
center without any problems. I have walked through many german cities
at night, as a hitchhiker without money, so I think I am kind of an
expert of the nightlife in german cities and what risks you run in that
environment.

It is not about federation or not, it is about culture and respect for
human rights.

Disclaimer: My knowledge of USA comes from news, books,
newspapers, movies and tv documentaries from USA.
My real life experiences of Germany are 20-30 years old now.
But I have also been watching german television a lot during the
last 20 years. They have many free satellite tv channels.


--
Roger J.

 

[keith]

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 19:43:02 -0600, learning wrote:

In <pan.2005.04.07.01.31.50.78458@att.bizzzz>, on 04/06/05
at 09:31 PM, keith <krw@att.bizzzz> said:

I don't know what you heard, but he's right. A pile of IOUs in the SS
"trust fund" isn't worth shit. Adding taxes, as the DemonRats want to
do, will only add money to the government *now* and more useless paper to
the SS "trust" fund. The *only* way out of the DemonRat's (going back to
FDR) is to *privatize* retirement. Sure it's going to cost perhaps a
terabuk, but the alternative is even worse.

Since the Supreme Idiots have already ruled several times that social
security is a tax and not a retirement benefit, it doesn't matter if it
runs out of money.

Oh, but it does! Those same congress-critters want to be re-elected.

The black robed tyrants have declared that no American
citizen has any right to collect social security benefits, ever, for any
reason. Its just a gift that Congress gives us if they choose to, so the
government can just throw up their hands, and walk away once it goes
broke.

As I said, a terabuck now is a small price compared to the alternatives.

--
Keith

JB

 

[keith]

On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 03:43:50 +0000, Roger Johansson wrote:

keith wrote:

The US is a federation, not a kingdom, or whatever
you call youselves these days. ;-)

Germany is a federation just like USA, but it is very different in many
ways.

Somebody famous (Mark Twain?) once said:

"A good society is where a beautiful woman, dressed in only a valuable
diamond necklace, can walk through the center of the city at night,
without any problems."

"Somebody" was an idiot.

In USA she would probably be raped, robbed or at least arrested by the
police.

You've been watching too much TeeVee. Arrested, certainly. L&L is
illegal in most of the US.

In Germany she would have a good chance of making it through the city
center without any problems. I have walked through many german cities
at night, as a hitchhiker without money, so I think I am kind of an
expert of the nightlife in german cities and what risks you run in that
environment.

....too much TeeVee. You really ought to learn more about the US before
spouting such "nightly news" garbage.

It is not about federation or not, it is about culture and respect for
human rights.

Irrelevent to the discussion at hand, though you clearly show your
"nightly news" mentality.

Disclaimer: My knowledge of USA comes from news, books, newspapers,
movies and tv documentaries from USA.

Yep. Talking through your ass.

My real life experiences of
Germany are 20-30 years old now. But I have also been watching german
television a lot during the last 20 years. They have many free satellite
tv channels.

Oh, I'm *so* impressed!

--
Keith

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Richard the Dreaded Libertarian
<eatmyshorts@doubleclick.net> wrote (in
<pan.2005.04.06.23.28.43.475749@doubleclick.net&gt about 'OT: Civil War
Narrowly Averted in Schiavo Case', on Wed, 6 Apr 2005:

When's the last time you looked up "demos" and "kratos" in your Greek-
English dictionary?

I tried to, but all the letters looked funny.(;-)

demos - the general public
kratos - rule
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 17:41:28 -0700, Robert Monsen
<rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 14:40:40 -0700, Bob Monsen <rcsurname@comast.net
wrote:

[snip]

I don't want to get into a brawl here, but analysis after the fact of the
2000 election pointed out that Gore would have won Florida had the US
supreme court not overruled the Florida supreme court. The US supreme
court stepped in, against precedent, to interfere with state politics,
simply because a majority of them wanted Bush to win.


[snip]

Where did you come up with this hare-brained "analysis"?


I must have read it in some 'hare-brained' liberal rag.

Everything I've seen says Bush won even more handily.


Right, lots of media outlets published the story that the recount would
have favored Bush. They were using an analysis that ignored 'overvotes',
which should have been included under Florida law. They were thus
misrepresenting their own result, after the fact, probably due to the
fear of riots that would have ensued. See the link below.

[snip]

Ignoring 'overvotes' is proper by every state law that I know of...
multiple votes VOID a ballot.

"Voter's intention" is a "hare-brained liberal rag" phraseology which
holds no legal status.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Ken Smith]

In article <pan.2005.04.06.23.24.23.664347@doubleclick.net>,
Richard the Dreaded Libertarian <eatmyshorts@doubleclick.net> wrote:
[....]

I was kind of sickened when I learned that the so-called "401K 'retirement
plan'" is based on playing the f**king stock market.

T-bills vs. Stock market makes very little difference to whats going to
happen in about 20 years when the great mass of boomers start drawing. If
the money goes into the stock market today, the stock market will rise
when it gets taken out, the market will fall. The same is true of the
value of the T-bills.

What really matters is what todays surplus money gets used for. If you
make power plants, highways and other long lasting stuff, the wealth will
still exist in 20 years. If you spend it all on fire works, it will all
be gone this year.

Right now the real problem is that the federal government is running a
huge debt that will have to be funded in the future. If the SSI system
gets changed to invest todays payments into the stock market and added
huge loan will have to be used to fund the change over. Effectively,
every dollar that goes into the stock market will be borrowed money.

If that sounds like a good idea to you consider the question of why they
are bothering with the "middle man". They could just float a 2.2 trillion
dollar load and plunk it into the stock market. They will be setting
limits on what you can invest in, so there will really be little
difference in the practical effect. In 20 years, that 2.2 trillion debt
will have grown at a slow but even rate. The stock will shoot up when the
2.2 trillion is put in and then crash just as it is taken out. Everyone
will think we are doing great until the day the money is needed.

--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

 

[Ken Smith]

In article <pan.2005.04.07.01.31.50.78458@att.bizzzz>,
keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 22:21:29 +0000, Ken Smith wrote:

In article <pan.2005.04.06.02.35.16.756961@att.bizzzz>,
keith <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
[....]
The DemonRats have shown that they can *always* waste more than we can
produce.

So have the republicans. Now you've got both houses and a pres. all from
the same party. There isn't the usual party bickering to restrain
spending.

You really don't pay attention, do you?

Yes I do. I pay careful attention to what's really going on.

Just on Tuesday Bush implied that the US government bonds backing the
social security system are not as good as piles of dollar bills, so not
only are they spending like they will bankrupt the country, they are
talking about actually declaring it.

I don't know what you heard, but he's right. A pile of IOUs in the SS
"trust fund" isn't worth shit.

The day that become true, the US dollar is also worthless. They are
backed by exactly the same thing "the full faith and credit".

Adding taxes, as the DemonRats want to do,
will only add money to the government *now* and more useless paper to the
SS "trust" fund.

Republicans will burden the next generation with a debt that is so large
that the US will have to inflate the dollar to avoid paying at full value.
Its coming. Count on it. If Kerry was president, there would be some
hope of some spending getting vetoed. As it stands, the spending is
unlimited.

The *only* way out of the DemonRat's (going back to FDR)
is to *privatize* retirement. Sure it's going to cost perhaps a
terabuk, but the alternative is even worse.

The cost is 2.2 Trillion in the next 4 years and about 5 in the 15 there
after. The "Bush plan" will burden the next generation with that added
debt and that is all it will do.

Those who don't like taxes should also not like the government forcing you
to invest money in a limitted number for government things and then
calling that money "yours". If you have no control over what is done with
the money can you really say it is "yours"" They also claim that "it
can't be taken away from you". In the past the US government took all the
gold from its people. They owned the gold up to the day the government
said "we'll take that". There is nothing preventing part or all of this
money from being taken away from you by some new invented tax rule. Since
the government will be in debt up to its eyeballs, it is likely to happen
too.


--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 09:49:36 -0600, learning@learning.com wrote:

[snip]

The solution is not privatizing, nor is it "shoring up" the existing
program. The cure is one that we won't ever see. Social Security must go
away, completely, and totally. Americans must be made to see that they are
going to have to be responsible for their own lives, and their own
retirement.

[snip]

One big snag in your reasoning seems to be an assumption that company
pensions will actually have value.

I think a _mandatory_ percentage of your income going into some kind
of retirement plan is wise, otherwise most people won't save anything
until they're suddenly _there_.

How this is managed, enforced and "guaranteed" remains to be seen.

Social Security, as it presently exists, is a pathetic excuse for a
retirement plan.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

In <5coa511isl9kia2tjijpe9er9prosm0kfk@4ax.com>, on 04/07/05
at 09:42 AM, Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> said:

One big snag in your reasoning seems to be an assumption that company
pensions will actually have value.

The "snag" you refer to is the inbred assumption by Americans that their
retirement is an entitlement, and that they don't have to work for
themselves.

I think a _mandatory_ percentage of your income going into some kind of
retirement plan is wise, otherwise most people won't save anything until
they're suddenly _there_.

I think that is socialism, and it has contributed to the decline of
freedom in this country. The attitude that "someone, anyone, owes me" is
disgraceful. Too many people put in, and die before they get any benefit,
and WAY too many people glob on, and take out WAY more than they ever put
in. Why is this tolerated? Because "that's the way we have always done it"
I really object vehemently to the federal government holding my hand, and
forcing me to live the way they demand, and taking my money, knowing full
well I will never get a penny of it back. Everyone should stand or fall of
their own free will.

How this is managed, enforced and "guaranteed" remains to be seen.

Unless you allow a superior being to enforce and guarantee it, there is
no way it can be done. Power assumed always becomes power wielded, and
look at how politicians beat us over the head with this tool. The fear
they put into people's minds over it is frightening.

Social Security, as it presently exists, is a pathetic excuse for a
retirement plan.

Absolutely. Asking the US federal government to manage our retirement is
beyond pathetic, its just stupid, brain dead, and we ought to be ashamed
of ourselves. On top of everything else, its immoral, and totally
unconstitutional. There is no logical reason for it to exist, and if we
were starting over again, as intelligent people, the idea of such a ponzie
scheme would not even ever come up.

It cannot be fixed. Its time to get rid of it. Just a look at the old pie
chart of federal expenditures will show that without social security, we
would get rid of a ton of federal chains wrapped around our knecks, and
free ourselves to determine our own futures. Hell, throw in getting rid of
the IRS, and 75% of the government would disappear. Sounds like a good
idea to me. Without all those freebies, even the Mexicans would think
twice before bothering to come here and screw up our country. Yet another
side benefit to getting rid if SS altogether.

I have been paying into that pyramid scheme forever, and it will give me
back nothing in return. My parents paid until they were 58, retired early,
and are still alive nearly thirty years later, globbing off of you and me,
and my children and yours, free medical, free everything. Its bullshit,
and it really upsets me to even think about how stupid we are to put up
with it.

It is also a detriment to a free society to hold out a cheap carrot like
that, and make people think that once they get to a certain age, they can
just quit being productive, sit on their ass, and do nothing, while
milking everyone else for their sustenance and care.

Freedom ain't free. Some would fail to take care of their future, but you
know what? Ain't nothing in the contract between the states that says once
we get to be about 65, that we don't have to worry about anything, we can
all have scooters, and free hips, and all expenses paid for the rest of
our lives, while the others in America do the work for us. Its a
ridiculous concept, and I assume its obvious that I don't support it at
all.... Being out of work for the last little while, I sure wish I could
have some of that money that they stole from me, right now, when I need it
most.

JB

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Thu, 07 Apr 2005 10:42:19 -0600, learning@learning.com wrote:

In <5coa511isl9kia2tjijpe9er9prosm0kfk@4ax.com>, on 04/07/05
at 09:42 AM, Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> said:

One big snag in your reasoning seems to be an assumption that company
pensions will actually have value.

The "snag" you refer to is the inbred assumption by Americans that their
retirement is an entitlement, and that they don't have to work for
themselves.

MOST people in the US work for EMPLOYERS. Except for early in my
life, I've worked for myself, but that's unusual in this country.

I think a _mandatory_ percentage of your income going into some kind of
retirement plan is wise, otherwise most people won't save anything until
they're suddenly _there_.

I think that is socialism, and it has contributed to the decline of
freedom in this country. The attitude that "someone, anyone, owes me" is
disgraceful.

Excuse me? If you pay in all your working life don't you expect
something in return?

Too many people put in, and die before they get any benefit,

That's the statistics of insurance.

and WAY too many people glob on, and take out WAY more than they ever put
in.

Excuse me? Do the math. Almost exactly $ 2,000,000 of my income (I
was at max level most of my life) has been taxed for Social Security
and Medicare. Total contributions out of my pocket and from employer
(keep in mind the "employer" was me most of the time) was $ 210,876

I will receive ~ $ 1876 / month when I retire. I will have to live
until age 75 TO BREAK EVEN... WHAT AN INVESTMENT.

Why is this tolerated? Because "that's the way we have always done it"
I really object vehemently to the federal government holding my hand, and
forcing me to live the way they demand, and taking my money, knowing full
well I will never get a penny of it back.

Oh? You get it back... just not with any decent return.

Everyone should stand or fall of
their own free will.

Wait until it is you ;-)

How this is managed, enforced and "guaranteed" remains to be seen.

Unless you allow a superior being to enforce and guarantee it, there is
no way it can be done. Power assumed always becomes power wielded, and
look at how politicians beat us over the head with this tool. The fear
they put into people's minds over it is frightening.

Social Security, as it presently exists, is a pathetic excuse for a
retirement plan.

Absolutely. Asking the US federal government to manage our retirement is
beyond pathetic, its just stupid, brain dead, and we ought to be ashamed
of ourselves. On top of everything else, its immoral, and totally
unconstitutional. There is no logical reason for it to exist, and if we
were starting over again, as intelligent people, the idea of such a ponzie
scheme would not even ever come up.

It cannot be fixed. Its time to get rid of it. Just a look at the old pie
chart of federal expenditures will show that without social security, we
would get rid of a ton of federal chains wrapped around our knecks,

"knecks" ?

and
free ourselves to determine our own futures. Hell, throw in getting rid of
the IRS, and 75% of the government would disappear.

Wow! I didn't realize you were such a dreamer. Flat tax or a
consumption tax will never happen, because the IRS is our largest
welfare program. Put all those people out of work and we'd have a
civil war on our hands.

Sounds like a good
idea to me. Without all those freebies, even the Mexicans would think
twice before bothering to come here and screw up our country. Yet another
side benefit to getting rid if SS altogether.

I'm for setting up shooting galleries along the border ;-)

I have been paying into that pyramid scheme forever, and it will give me
back nothing in return. My parents paid until they were 58, retired early,
and are still alive nearly thirty years later, globbing off of you and me,
and my children and yours, free medical, free everything. Its bullshit,
and it really upsets me to even think about how stupid we are to put up
with it.

Wait until you get there ;-)

It is also a detriment to a free society to hold out a cheap carrot like
that, and make people think that once they get to a certain age, they can
just quit being productive, sit on their ass, and do nothing, while
milking everyone else for their sustenance and care.

Freedom ain't free. Some would fail to take care of their future, but you
know what? Ain't nothing in the contract between the states that says once
we get to be about 65, that we don't have to worry about anything, we can
all have scooters, and free hips, and all expenses paid for the rest of
our lives, while the others in America do the work for us. Its a
ridiculous concept, and I assume its obvious that I don't support it at
all.... Being out of work for the last little while, I sure wish I could
have some of that money that they stole from me, right now, when I need it
most.

JB

I've paid a SINFUL amount into income taxes and SS (probably more
annually in taxes than you gross). Now I'm taking at least a modicum
back.

Until February I was paying $560/month for health insurance with a $5K
deductible, then 80/20... in other words, I was uninsured except for
deadly occurrences.

Now, Medicare, with Part B and supplemental type F, costs me
~$223/month, and I actually can get medical treatment... and no
skimping... got a CT scan of my sinuses the other day, at NO cost ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.