magnetic field

[E. Rosten]

Repeating Rifle wrote:

in article 4157DE09.1070909@my.sig, E. Rosten at look@my.sig wrote on
9/27/04 2:31 AM:


Shear stress can always be seperated out: you can represent any
combination of shear and tensile stress as pure tensile stress (google
for Mohr's Circle).

The Mohr's Circle operation is just a graphical way of diagonalizing the
stress matrix (well, it only works in 2D where the tensor is of rank 2).


Mohr's circle is a tensor on the cheap.

More like symmetric eigen decomposition done graphically. It just
happens that the matrix it operates on is a 2D stress tensor. But you
can still diagonalize it (ie represent shear as tension only).

In a sense, it was developed for
engineers who were not formally trained in tensors or their matrix
representations. The days when that was necessary, I hope, are over.

Your hopes may be elevated, sadly. Though I'm not sure.

Another crutch for tensors was developed under the name of *dyadics*.

They also are for rank 2 tensors aren't they?

-Ed

--
(You can't go wrong with psycho-rats.) (er258)(@)(eng.cam)(.ac.uk)

/d{def}def/f{/Times findfont s scalefont setfont}d/s{10}d/r{roll}d f 5/m
{moveto}d -1 r 230 350 m 0 1 179{1 index show 88 rotate 4 mul 0 rmoveto}
for /s 15 d f pop 240 420 m 0 1 3 { 4 2 1 r sub -1 r show } for showpage

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

"Kevin Kilzer" <kkilzer.remove.this@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:drvel0p49rt7vhp64ieosgsarumo7ghsc8@4ax.com

contribution was to show that a magnetic field is created as an
electric field changes, and an electric field is created as a magnetic
field changes.

Isn't it assymetrical, with a constant current producing a constant
magnetic field?

 

[Repeating Rifle]

in article p_c6d.642262$Gx4.586918@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net, Tom
Del Rosso at ng01@att.net.invalid wrote on 9/28/04 5:41 AM:

"Kevin Kilzer" <kkilzer.remove.this@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:drvel0p49rt7vhp64ieosgsarumo7ghsc8@4ax.com

contribution was to show that a magnetic field is created as an
electric field changes, and an electric field is created as a magnetic
field changes.

Isn't it assymetrical, with a constant current producing a constant
magnetic field?


It is only assymmetrical because there are no magnetic charges. Magnetic

charge does not appear Maxwell's equations. The symmetries or lack of them
show up more strongly in the four-vector relativistic formulations.

Bill

 

[E. Rosten]

Repeating Rifle wrote:

It is only assymmetrical because there are no magnetic charges. Magnetic
charge does not appear Maxwell's equations. The symmetries or lack of them
show up more strongly in the four-vector relativistic formulations.

IIRC, magnetic charges (known also as magnetic monopoles) are
theoretically possible (according to some physicists). This leads to the
very minor addition to Maxwell's Equations that

div B = m

which is analogous to

div D = rho


However, magnetic monopoles are thought to exist at such high energies
that can never be observed.

-Ed




--
(You can't go wrong with psycho-rats.) (er258)(@)(eng.cam)(.ac.uk)

/d{def}def/f{/Times findfont s scalefont setfont}d/s{10}d/r{roll}d f 5/m
{moveto}d -1 r 230 350 m 0 1 179{1 index show 88 rotate 4 mul 0 rmoveto}
for /s 15 d f pop 240 420 m 0 1 3 { 4 2 1 r sub -1 r show } for showpage

 

[Perion]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:4157853f$0$20129$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

I'm not disagreeing with Kevin, but there is a simple thought experiment
that shows how careful one must be about taking a theory, such as that
of James Clerk Maxwell, and attempting to use it as anything more than a
description.

Take two electrons, separated in space, stationary relative to some
observer. There's an electric field, obviously, but no magnetic field.
Now take another observer moving perpendicularly to the line joining the
electrons. This observe sees the electrons in motion. Electrons in
motion are an electric current, and an electric current produces a
magnetic field, so for that observer there is a magnetic field present.

So one observer finds a magnetic field present where another observer
finds none. The notion that a magnetic field has a concrete existence is
clearly problematic. This paradox doesn't appear in the theory itself,
because it simply tells you what will happen (or more exactly, what your
measurements will show). It doesn't say anything about what is "really"
there.
And so with any motion related phenomena. Person A is on a flatbed rail car.

Just as the train passes a road crossing A tosses a tennis ball straight up to a
height h and catches it as it comes back down. Person A calculates the distance
the ball has traveled as 2h. Person B is stopped at the crossing watching the
train go by and sees the ball as moving through a parabolic arc. He calculates
that the ball has moved a distance through space equal to the length of the
parabola, greater than 2h. The two observers arrive at completely different
values and describe completely different trajectory geometries. So, how far did
the ball REALLY move through space and what was its ACTUAL trajectory? What was
the ball's ACTUAL kinetic energy in the direction of the train's motion? A says
zero, B says it's half the mass of the ball times the velocity of the train
squared. Either the ball has energy or doesn't - who's right. The problem is
that even notions as simple as "trajectory" or "kinetic energy" aren't entities
in themselves but arise as part of a relationship between the motion of observer
with observed.

Perion

 

[Checkmate]

On Mon, 27 Sep 2004 17:01:03 -0500, No Spam put forth the notion that...

Repeating Rifle wrote:
in article cj8eqs$9kd$0@pita.alt.net, Checkmate at LunaticFringe@The.Edge
wrote on 9/27/04 12:15 AM:


I think Heisenberg first developed that theory, but I'm not certain.


Planck introduce the concept of a quantum of energy in order to explain the
spectral distribution of black body radiation. Einstein and others were able
to extend the concept to explain specific heat and photoemission. Bohr first
applied it to atomic physics. Heisenberg developed the first modern theory
of quantum mechanics. Shrödinger formulated a wave equation that was much
more familiar to physicists of the day. The big surprise was that the
Schrödinger formulation gave identical results to that of Heisenberg's in
spite of appearing to be very different. The Schrödinger formulation was
much easier for making calculations while the Heisenberg formulation was
better suited to understanding essence of what quantum physics was all
about.

Bill

And I thought Checkmate was being funny. ;-)

That was the idea, anyway... tough crowd.

--
Checkmate
Copyright Š 2004
all rights reserved

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

"Repeating Rifle" <salmonegg@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:BD7ED1F2.24867%salmonegg@sbcglobal.net

It is only assymmetrical because there are no magnetic charges.
Magnetic charge does not appear Maxwell's equations. The symmetries
or lack of them show up more strongly in the four-vector relativistic
formulations.

Kevin said, "a magnetic field is created as an electric field changes,
and an electric field is created as a magnetic field changes".

I thought a magnetic field is proportional to the current, not the
change in current. Whereas an induced current is proportional to the
rate of change of magnetic field. That's the assymetry I refered to,
but I'm seeking clarification. Am I wrong or are we both right?

 

[Sir Charles W. Shults III]

In a nutshell, a magnetic field is a virtual photon field where all
their spins are aligned. It is impressed on the vacuum and the photons
aren't really there at all (just like electrical charge is the emission and
absorption of virtual photons). Think of it as a spin field impressed on
the vacuum that makes any virtual photons that appear be aligned in a
specific way.

Cheers!

Sir Charles W. Shults III, K. B. B.
Xenotech Research
321-206-1840

 

[Sylvia Else]

Tom Del Rosso wrote:

"Repeating Rifle" <salmonegg@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:BD7ED1F2.24867%salmonegg@sbcglobal.net

It is only assymmetrical because there are no magnetic charges.
Magnetic charge does not appear Maxwell's equations. The symmetries
or lack of them show up more strongly in the four-vector relativistic
formulations.


Kevin said, "a magnetic field is created as an electric field changes,
and an electric field is created as a magnetic field changes".

I thought a magnetic field is proportional to the current, not the
change in current. Whereas an induced current is proportional to the
rate of change of magnetic field. That's the assymetry I refered to,
but I'm seeking clarification. Am I wrong or are we both right?

If you think about it, you'll see that a constant current is equivalent
to a constant RATE OF CHANGE of charge at two places.

Sylvia.

 

[operator jay]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:4157853f$0$20129$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

I'm not disagreeing with Kevin, but there is a simple thought experiment
that shows how careful one must be about taking a theory, such as that
of James Clerk Maxwell, and attempting to use it as anything more than a
description.

Take two electrons, separated in space, stationary relative to some
observer. There's an electric field, obviously, but no magnetic field.
Now take another observer moving perpendicularly to the line joining the
electrons. This observe sees the electrons in motion. Electrons in
motion are an electric current, and an electric current produces a
magnetic field, so for that observer there is a magnetic field present.

So one observer finds a magnetic field present where another observer
finds none. The notion that a magnetic field has a concrete existence is
clearly problematic. This paradox doesn't appear in the theory itself,
because it simply tells you what will happen (or more exactly, what your
measurements will show). It doesn't say anything about what is "really"
there.

Sylvia.

I was told that Einstein showed that there is not actually any magnetic
field and that what we see happen in motors etc. can be explained by
relativistic effects. Maybe this is related to this thought experiment? I
didn't get any further explanation, and I never did look into it any. Hang
on...




[from a google on:
einstein "no magnetic field"

http://www.analogzone.com/col_1028b.htm

Nobody Loves A Transformer, Part 2: Wire Again
by Brian McGinty


....it took Albert Einstein to figure them out. Stationary electrons don't
have a magnetic field. A single electron moving through empty space doesn't
have a magnetic field. Two electrons moving together, still no magnetic
field.

When electrons move relative to each other - towards each other, away from
each other, past each other - a magnetic field appears out of nowhere. In
fact, Einstein discovered the magnetic field is just the electric field as
viewed through changing frames of reference. Considered by many to be quite
a sharp guy, ...




j

 

[Sylvia Else]

operator jay wrote:

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:4157853f$0$20129$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

I'm not disagreeing with Kevin, but there is a simple thought experiment
that shows how careful one must be about taking a theory, such as that
of James Clerk Maxwell, and attempting to use it as anything more than a
description.

Take two electrons, separated in space, stationary relative to some
observer. There's an electric field, obviously, but no magnetic field.
Now take another observer moving perpendicularly to the line joining the
electrons. This observe sees the electrons in motion. Electrons in
motion are an electric current, and an electric current produces a
magnetic field, so for that observer there is a magnetic field present.

So one observer finds a magnetic field present where another observer
finds none. The notion that a magnetic field has a concrete existence is
clearly problematic. This paradox doesn't appear in the theory itself,
because it simply tells you what will happen (or more exactly, what your
measurements will show). It doesn't say anything about what is "really"
there.

Sylvia.



I was told that Einstein showed that there is not actually any magnetic
field and that what we see happen in motors etc. can be explained by
relativistic effects. Maybe this is related to this thought experiment?

For sure, since it is exactly that relativistic model that prompted my
use of the idea in the thought experiment.

However, I wouldn't want anyone to get that idea that the field, and
resulting forces, are in some way produced by a relativistic "effect". I
make again my point that the theories only describe - they don't
explain - and they certainly don't produce effects.

Sylvia.

 

[Repeating Rifle]

in article vLOdnVlOc7ZOKMTcRVn-sw@comcast.com, Perion at
RazroRog@hotmail.com wrote on 9/28/04 12:04 PM:

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:4157853f$0$20129$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

I'm not disagreeing with Kevin, but there is a simple thought experiment
that shows how careful one must be about taking a theory, such as that
of James Clerk Maxwell, and attempting to use it as anything more than a
description.

Take two electrons, separated in space, stationary relative to some
observer. There's an electric field, obviously, but no magnetic field.
Now take another observer moving perpendicularly to the line joining the
electrons. This observe sees the electrons in motion. Electrons in
motion are an electric current, and an electric current produces a
magnetic field, so for that observer there is a magnetic field present.

So one observer finds a magnetic field present where another observer
finds none. The notion that a magnetic field has a concrete existence is
clearly problematic. This paradox doesn't appear in the theory itself,
because it simply tells you what will happen (or more exactly, what your
measurements will show). It doesn't say anything about what is "really"
there.
And so with any motion related phenomena. Person A is on a flatbed rail car.
Just as the train passes a road crossing A tosses a tennis ball straight up to
a
height h and catches it as it comes back down. Person A calculates the
distance
the ball has traveled as 2h. Person B is stopped at the crossing watching the
train go by and sees the ball as moving through a parabolic arc. He
calculates
that the ball has moved a distance through space equal to the length of the
parabola, greater than 2h. The two observers arrive at completely different
values and describe completely different trajectory geometries. So, how far
did
the ball REALLY move through space and what was its ACTUAL trajectory? What
was
the ball's ACTUAL kinetic energy in the direction of the train's motion? A
says
zero, B says it's half the mass of the ball times the velocity of the train
squared. Either the ball has energy or doesn't - who's right. The problem is
that even notions as simple as "trajectory" or "kinetic energy" aren't
entities
in themselves but arise as part of a relationship between the motion of
observer
with observed.

Perion


Both are observing the same invariant phenomenon. Both descriptions are

correct. The Lorentz transformation can be derived by modifying Newtonian
theory the make both descriptions correct.

Bill

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"Ryan Wheeler" <mojo@nospam_netscape.com> wrote in message
news:_7L5d.147268$Q7D.76117@twister01.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com...

Ken wrote:

Hi,

I would like to know what is a magnetic field. I mean what is it
composed of.
I searched google , asked people around me , no one seems to know.
Obviously everyone knows where how, but not what.
I thought it was electrons, but that cant be.

thank you

ken

look at this one http://www.who.int/peh-emf/en/

What I see at that URL is basically no information at all about magnetic
fields.

> search word in google is: emf

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"Don Kelly" <dhky@peeshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:wcL5d.120446$%S.61848@pd7tw2no...

"Ken" <lera@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:yLH5d.2351$MD5.146609@news20.bellglobal.com...
Hi,

I would like to know what is a magnetic field. I mean what is it
composed
of.
I searched google , asked people around me , no one seems to know.
Obviously everyone knows where how, but not what.
I thought it was electrons, but that cant be.

thank you

ken

A field is a region of influence- hence a magnetic field is a region
of
magnetic influence- i.e. there are effects due to the magnetism.
Beyond that
one gets into "what is magnetism"

A magnetic field is like porn, I can't describe it, but I know it when I
see it! ;-)

You think magnetic fields are bad! Try describing a gravitational
field! It's *everywhere!* And you can't get away from it!

--
Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer

 

[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"Sylvia Else" <sylvia@not.at.this.address> wrote in message
news:4157853f$0$20129$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

Kevin Kilzer wrote:

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 18:53:21 -0400, "Ken" <lera@sympatico.ca> wrote:


I would like to know what is a magnetic field. I mean what is it
composed
of.
I searched google , asked people around me , no one seems to know.
Obviously everyone knows where how, but not what.
I thought it was electrons, but that cant be.


Basically, both electric and magnetic fields store electromagnetic
enegy. Electric fields can be created by something as simple as a
battery, and magnetic fields come from magnets or from electrical
coils while a current flows. Why magnets make magnetic fields is a
question for quantum physics.

With respect to Sylvia, James Clerk Maxwell expressed a relationship
between electric and magnetic fields in the mid 1800's. Maxwell's
contribution was to show that a magnetic field is created as an
electric field changes, and an electric field is created as a
magnetic
field changes. The result is that if I switch an electric field off
and on, I get a magnetic field that swells and collapses with each
on-off transistion.

If I flip the swith fast enough at some frequency, I will find that
the magnetic field comes and goes with the same frequency. But,
since
a changing magnetic field will create its own electric field, the
effect moves out to this new field, which makes another magnetic
field, and so on, and that is radio.

Kevin


I'm not disagreeing with Kevin, but there is a simple thought
experiment
that shows how careful one must be about taking a theory, such as that
of James Clerk Maxwell, and attempting to use it as anything more than
a
description.

Take two electrons, separated in space, stationary relative to some
observer. There's an electric field, obviously, but no magnetic field.
Now take another observer moving perpendicularly to the line joining
the
electrons. This observe sees the electrons in motion. Electrons in
motion are an electric current, and an electric current produces a
magnetic field, so for that observer there is a magnetic field
present.

First off, electrons aren't 'stationary'. They're always moving. And
then you can't 'observe' them because the act of observing them disturbs
them. It's the old Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle.

If you ask me, we're getting into the "Blind Men and the Elephant"
territory.

So one observer finds a magnetic field present where another observer
finds none. The notion that a magnetic field has a concrete existence
is
clearly problematic. This paradox doesn't appear in the theory itself,
because it simply tells you what will happen (or more exactly, what
your
measurements will show). It doesn't say anything about what is
"really"
there.

Sylvia.

 

[matthew parker]

psi.test,rec.models.railroad,sci.electronics.misc,cmh.test,gnu.chesssc,ntu-kpi.rec.music

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[Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su]

"CWatters" <colin.watters@pandoraBOX.be> wrote in message
news:6uR5d.258559$Q34.13514848@phobos.telenet-ops.be...

"Ken" <lera@sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:yLH5d.2351$MD5.146609@news20.bellglobal.com...
Hi,

I would like to know what is a magnetic field. I mean what is it
composed of.

It isn't really composed of anything. It's a region in which a
magnetic
force can be detected. Ever seen a police car on the motorway?
Everyone
within 100 yards drives exactly at the speed limit. the police call
this a
bubble or zone of legality. The zone isn't composed of anythig but you
can
"feel the force".

I walked into Circuit City this afternoon and they were playing Star
Wars on the big screen TVs, so I stopped and watched it for a few
minutes. Luke was trying to resist Green Teeth's demand that he come
over to the Dark Side; and when he didn't, old Green Teeth started
zapping him with his hands. Old Darth finally couldn't take seeing his
son being killed, so he threw old Green Teeth over the rail into the
power reactor. And Darth ended up dying in Luke's arms.

Good special FX from Lucasfilm. I can't remember what year that was,
but it's been decades since I saw that movie. And then Han finds out
that Princes Leia is really Luke's sister, and they smooch and kiss, and
all the little gremlins cheer them on. And they blow up the Death Star,
and everyone lives happily everafter...

So what were we saying about Zone of Legality? Bubbles? Whatever
happened to Bubble Memory? There's some neat magnetic fields doing some
neat things. But that's now extinct.

 

[Dick Alvarez]

Kevin Kilzer <kkilzer.remove.this@mindspring.com> wrote
&lt;<a magnetic field is created as an electric field changes,
and an electric field is created as a magnetic field
changes".>&gt;

"Tom Del Rosso" &lt;ng01@att.net.invalid&gt; wrote &lt;&lt;I
thought a magnetic field is proportional to the current, not
the change in current. Whereas an induced current is
proportional to the rate of change of magnetic field.
That's the assymetry I refered to, but I'm seeking
clarification. Am I wrong or are we both right?&gt;&gt;

Both are right. The confusion arises because we are
talking about two different forms of electric "current".

One form of current is flow of charged particles (e.g.,
electrons) in a wire or other conducting medium, or even as
a beam of charged particles through a vacuum. A charged
particle flow, either steady or changing, creates a magnetic
field around the flow of charged particles.

The other form of current is more sneaky. It goes by the
name "displacement current". To illustrate, suppose that we
have two parallel plates, with a Voltage applied between
them. The applied Voltage causes an electric field between
the two plates. For example, if you put an electron in that
electric field, then the electron sees a force that tends to
move the electron toward the positive plate. If the applied
Voltage is steady, then the resulting steady electric field
does not create a magnetic field. Now suppose that the
Voltage, hence the electric field, between the two plates,
is changing. That *changing* electric field, very loosely
called "displacement current", creates a magnetic field
around the changing electric field. The magnetic field is
proportional to the rate of change of the electric field, as
Kevin Kilzer said above.

Summary: (1) A changing magnetic field creates an
electric field which is proportional to the rate of change
of the magnetic field. (2) An electric current, steady or
changing, consisting of a flow of charged particles like
electrons in a wire, creates a magnetic field which is
proportional to the electric current, whether the current is
changing or not. (3) A changing electric field creates a
magnetic field which is proportional to the rate of change
of the electric field.

The proportionality constants can get messy, and can
involve tensors, which probably you don't want to get into.
At radio frequencies, things also get more involved. At
velocities close to the speed of light, relativistic effects
enter the picture. But the above description is reasonably
good for ordinary situations.

The assymetry that you mentioned, arises because flowing
electrically charged particles are one form of electric
current; whereas magnetically charged particles (magnetic
monopoles) do not exist, at least not in our ordinary world,
so magnetic current does not exist.

We owe a lot of this to the great physicist James
Maxwell, of the middle-1800s. Among other things, he laid
the foundation of much of modern electronics.

Dick Alvarez
alvarez at alumni dot caltech dot edu

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 15:51:50 -0500, John Fields
&lt;jfields@austininstruments.com&gt; wrote:

On Sat, 02 Oct 2004 13:12:55 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com&gt; wrote:


Surgical "clamps" (hemostats??) are handy circuit tools also.

---
In addition to their primary function; roach clips...

Ah, Yes! ROTFLMAO!

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Tzortzakakis Dimitrios]

I can give you my point of view:scientists (and applied science) always
looks *the use* of certain inventions, and not in-depth-view of what
magnetic field is really.So, you have a rotating magnet inside a
stator:voila, an alternator. You have a stator that creates a rotating
magnetic field and inside it a "squirrel cage" rotor:voila, an asynchronous
rotor.Without both the inventions, todays world would not exist. Imagine a
refrigerator motor with brushes.Or a fan motor with them.Or generating
electricity only with DC.Actually, the equations of Maxwell, describe an
electromagnetic field, used to transmit TV and radio, and have nothing to do
with pure magnetism (even in the more complex form of the rotating magnetic
field).The magnetism...is something.

--
Dimitris Tzortzakakis,Iraklion Crete,Greece
major in electrical engineering
freelance electrician
dimtzort AT otenet DOT gr
Ď "Ken" &lt;lera@sympatico.ca&gt; Ýăńářĺ óôď ěŢíőěá
news:yLH5d.2351$MD5.146609@news20.bellglobal.com...

Hi,

I would like to know what is a magnetic field. I mean what is it composed
of.
I searched google , asked people around me , no one seems to know.
Obviously everyone knows where how, but not what.
I thought it was electrons, but that cant be.

thank you

ken