Low Cost VOIP Providers

[rickman]

With many things you can find good, low cost sources. But with some
things you have to choose... "good, fast, cheap - pick two" is common.

I've been Googling for VOIP providers and none of them seem to fair very
well unless they are a bit pricey with plans that remind me of cell
phones with limited minutes. There seem to be a few low cost providers
but they tend to get poor reviews on voice quality or dropped calls or
even completing calls. I've even read about one provider that only
requires a modest yearly payment, but makes it so hard to do that some
give up and subscribe all over again.

I don't get it. This is not new technology. Has anyone found a decent
VOIP provider? I'd like to use my existing phone number (seems not all
will let you transfer a number) and port the device with me when I
travel. Ideally it would support E911 and allow me to easily update the
info when I travel.

Otherwise I just need for it to replace my land line and not cost any
more. I'm only paying $15 a month to Verizon for that, and of course I
have to spit each time I write the check... I'm not a fan.

What are you using?

--

Rick

 

[dcaster@krl.org]

On Wednesday, August 14, 2013 4:46:06 AM UTC-4, rickman wrote:

I've been Googling for VOIP providers and none of them seem to fair very

well

What are you using?

Rick

I am using Pioneer long distance service. Not voip ,but long distance at 3 cents a minute. http://www.pioneertelephone.com/

Dan

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 04:46:06 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

With many things you can find good, low cost sources. But with some
things you have to choose... "good, fast, cheap - pick two" is common.

<http://www.future-nine.com/plans.html>
I'm on the cheapest plan at $75/year. I've been a customer for about
4 years. I've also setup accounts for several of my customers. A few
problems occasionally, but nothing catastrophic or chronic. If you
need tech support and hand holding, forget it and find another VoIP
provider.

I suggest that you check your internet connection for jitter before
attempting VoIP. Run the test several times at various times of the
day:
<http://myspeed.visualware.com/indexvoip.php>
Use G.711 (uncompressed). Due to their method of rate limiting,
Comcast cable internet can be particularly bad and erratic for VoIP.
Also, please make sure that you have QoS configured in your router so
that SIP packets get priority (or just reserve some bandwidth for
SIP).


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 04:46:06 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

With many things you can find good, low cost sources. But with some
things you have to choose... "good, fast, cheap - pick two" is common.

I've been Googling for VOIP providers and none of them seem to fair very
well unless they are a bit pricey with plans that remind me of cell
phones with limited minutes. There seem to be a few low cost providers
but they tend to get poor reviews on voice quality or dropped calls or
even completing calls. I've even read about one provider that only
requires a modest yearly payment, but makes it so hard to do that some
give up and subscribe all over again.

I don't get it. This is not new technology. Has anyone found a decent
VOIP provider? I'd like to use my existing phone number (seems not all
will let you transfer a number) and port the device with me when I
travel. Ideally it would support E911 and allow me to easily update the
info when I travel.

Otherwise I just need for it to replace my land line and not cost any
more. I'm only paying $15 a month to Verizon for that, and of course I
have to spit each time I write the check... I'm not a fan.

What are you using?

First of May I changed from Centurylink (nee Qwest) to Ooma. I went
Premier, so I'm effectively $12.28/month (each line, I have two,
prepaid rate).

Nice features, including a personalized reject list, since the Federal
DoNotCall is a farce.

Internet down? Automatically forwards to my cellphone.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson | mens |
| Analog Innovations | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| San Tan Valley, AZ 85142 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[John S]

On 8/14/2013 11:10 AM, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 04:46:06 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

With many things you can find good, low cost sources. But with some
things you have to choose... "good, fast, cheap - pick two" is common.

I've been Googling for VOIP providers and none of them seem to fair very
well unless they are a bit pricey with plans that remind me of cell
phones with limited minutes. There seem to be a few low cost providers
but they tend to get poor reviews on voice quality or dropped calls or
even completing calls. I've even read about one provider that only
requires a modest yearly payment, but makes it so hard to do that some
give up and subscribe all over again.

I don't get it. This is not new technology. Has anyone found a decent
VOIP provider? I'd like to use my existing phone number (seems not all
will let you transfer a number) and port the device with me when I
travel. Ideally it would support E911 and allow me to easily update the
info when I travel.

Otherwise I just need for it to replace my land line and not cost any
more. I'm only paying $15 a month to Verizon for that, and of course I
have to spit each time I write the check... I'm not a fan.

What are you using?

First of May I changed from Centurylink (nee Qwest) to Ooma. I went
Premier, so I'm effectively $12.28/month (each line, I have two,
prepaid rate).

Nice features, including a personalized reject list, since the Federal
DoNotCall is a farce.

And a joke. I stopped reporting the calls because it does no good. Now I
look at the CID and, if it looks unfamiliar, I simply answer and hang up
immediately to stop the annoying ringing.

Internet down? Automatically forwards to my cellphone.

...Jim Thompson

 

[rickman]

On 8/14/2013 12:00 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Wed, 14 Aug 2013 04:46:06 -0400, rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

With many things you can find good, low cost sources. But with some
things you have to choose... "good, fast, cheap - pick two" is common.

http://www.future-nine.com/plans.html
I'm on the cheapest plan at $75/year. I've been a customer for about
4 years. I've also setup accounts for several of my customers. A few
problems occasionally, but nothing catastrophic or chronic. If you
need tech support and hand holding, forget it and find another VoIP
provider.

I suggest that you check your internet connection for jitter before
attempting VoIP. Run the test several times at various times of the
day:
http://myspeed.visualware.com/indexvoip.php
Use G.711 (uncompressed). Due to their method of rate limiting,
Comcast cable internet can be particularly bad and erratic for VoIP.
Also, please make sure that you have QoS configured in your router so
that SIP packets get priority (or just reserve some bandwidth for
SIP).

A friend brings her phone with her when she visits and it works ok
through my router and service. She has Comcast at home and it works ok
there too except that it drops once a day at about some given time. Her
VPN also drops at the same time. I think she said she got one or two
drops on my system too, but I don't recall for sure.

So I think the connection is ok for VOIP. I just need to find a decent
plan.

What is SIP? I see this listed at the future-nine site, "Free outgoing
SIP calls". But the lowest plan charges per minute. So what is an SIP
call? I looked it up and I don't get why they are free. Are they
computer to computer and don't go through the PSTN network?

Their prices seem good but their site is not very clear. For example
most plans charge a monthly fee. The "Pay as you go" plan has no
monthly fee and charges per minute. But they charge monthly for a US
phone number... what? Doesn't having a phone imply that you have a
number? How is that different from charging a monthly fee?

Oh, I just read the "learn about us" page and see they now have E911
service... as of 2009! But no mention of this on the main page.

Still, if you say they work well I'll consider them. I just wish they
made their plans a bit more clear.

--

Rick

 

[miso]

I wouldn't blow off Jeff's comment about using that visualware test.
Many ISPs provide jittery data. I'm on Megapath (a VOIP provider though
I don't have their service and they have their detractors). I get jitter
in the 200us to 500us range. I could do broadcast grade VOIP if I wanted
to. A cable modem will be in the 30ms to 50ms range. Comcast does
special routing for their own VOIP service. It is not the same as using
their data.

SIP has a wiki:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Session_Initiation_Protocol

Most modern businesses use SIP and a linux box to act as the PBX. Or use
something like Ringcentral. If we are talking about a home user, I don't
see SIP being all that handy. There are all sorts of phone plans for
home use, or just use a cellphone. For a SOHO, I would say the goal is
to get one phase of AT$T out of your life.

SIP phones? Well, they talk SIP. Hook 'em up to a network and beat your
brain trying to set up Asterik. SIP phones are old hat enough that they
show up in Silicon Valley surplus stores.

 

[miso]

And a joke. I stopped reporting the calls because it does no good. Now I
look at the CID and, if it looks unfamiliar, I simply answer and hang up
immediately to stop the annoying ringing.

All those annoying call hide behind a CLEC. But so do a lot of legit
businesses. I wouldn't hang up on them immediately unless you are
forcing them to go to voicemail. Rachel from Credit Card Services
doesn't like voicemail.

 

[Don Y]

Hi John,

On 8/14/2013 9:24 AM, John S wrote:

Nice features, including a personalized reject list, since the Federal
DoNotCall is a farce.

And a joke. I stopped reporting the calls because it does no good. Now I
look at the CID and, if it looks unfamiliar, I simply answer and hang up
immediately to stop the annoying ringing.

Black lists (and white lists) are essentially ineffective.
E.g., it's relatively easy to spoof a CID so a telemarketer
could call with a different CID each day, etc. (i.e., black
list will never be up-to-date -- unless you simply want to
exclude your next-door neighbor! :-/ )

Similarly, friends/colleagues/clients/family could call
from a "foreign" (unrecognized) CID and fail to satisfy
white list criteria.

I.e., you need an authentication mechanism that isn't tied to
CID. And, that doesn't require *you* to constantly update
"tables".

I've been piecing together strategies I have used over the years
in the design of the telecom system, here.

Incoming calls go to the phone system -- not the "phones". I.e.,
the phone system decides when to *ring* a phone (because that
event is a disturbance and one that no one on the outside should
be able to initiate!).

Robocalls are handled by requiring interaction: "Press one to
be connected to the answering machine" tick tick tick tick...
drop line, unconditionally. (of course, the next caller might
be told to press *7*!)

Folks who *should* be able to get through can authenticate
themselves to the system (TT/speak an identifying token)
and the system can handle their calls as appropriate for
the person involved, time of day, whether or not the called
party is home/available, etc.

I.e., the phone system has to act like a "secretary" -- *screening*
your calls on your behalf and disposing/routing them as required
("Oh, hi, Betty. He's left a message explicitly for *you*: he's
reserved a table at Flanagan's for 7:30 this evening...")

I haven't yet found a dual FXS/FXO on which to implement this,
though. I had originally hoped for a free-standing box (e.g.,
dual PSTN on one side, ethernet on the other -- plus a pair
of handset "feedthroughs" to handle outages) like I've done
for the DTV interface to the network, but the latency across
it is unacceptable (with DTV, the latency is all "one way"
so falls out of the equation!)

 

[John S]

On 8/14/2013 1:05 PM, miso wrote:

And a joke. I stopped reporting the calls because it does no good. Now I
look at the CID and, if it looks unfamiliar, I simply answer and hang up
immediately to stop the annoying ringing.


All those annoying call hide behind a CLEC. But so do a lot of legit
businesses. I wouldn't hang up on them immediately unless you are
forcing them to go to voicemail. Rachel from Credit Card Services
doesn't like voicemail.

So, you know her, too. After two or three times of encountering my
process, she never called back.

That's why I provide my cell number to important contacts. If I somehow
make a mistake and dump them on my business phone, then they can contact
me anyway.

 

[rickman]

On 8/14/2013 2:01 PM, miso wrote:

I wouldn't blow off Jeff's comment about using that visualware test.
Many ISPs provide jittery data. I'm on Megapath (a VOIP provider though
I don't have their service and they have their detractors). I get jitter
in the 200us to 500us range. I could do broadcast grade VOIP if I wanted
to. A cable modem will be in the 30ms to 50ms range. Comcast does
special routing for their own VOIP service. It is not the same as using
their data.

I didn't blow it off, I can't run it. It requires Java and I've removed
Java from my browser. Be that a good thing or a bad thing, it is done
and I'm not putting it back until I hear the all clear.

SIP has a wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Session_Initiation_Protocol

This doesn't tell me anything that I need to know to understand the
usage of "SIP call" in the context it was used.

Most modern businesses use SIP and a linux box to act as the PBX. Or use
something like Ringcentral. If we are talking about a home user, I don't
see SIP being all that handy. There are all sorts of phone plans for
home use, or just use a cellphone. For a SOHO, I would say the goal is
to get one phase of AT$T out of your life.

SIP phones? Well, they talk SIP. Hook 'em up to a network and beat your
brain trying to set up Asterik. SIP phones are old hat enough that they
show up in Silicon Valley surplus stores.

Great, all I need now is to understand what is meant by "SIP calls".

--

Rick

 

[Don Y]

Hi,

On 8/14/2013 12:18 PM, rickman wrote:

On 8/14/2013 2:01 PM, miso wrote:

SIP has a wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Session_Initiation_Protocol

This doesn't tell me anything that I need to know to understand the
usage of "SIP call" in the context it was used.

Most modern businesses use SIP and a linux box to act as the PBX. Or use
something like Ringcentral. If we are talking about a home user, I don't
see SIP being all that handy. There are all sorts of phone plans for
home use, or just use a cellphone. For a SOHO, I would say the goal is
to get one phase of AT$T out of your life.

SIP phones? Well, they talk SIP. Hook 'em up to a network and beat your
brain trying to set up Asterik. SIP phones are old hat enough that they
show up in Silicon Valley surplus stores.

Great, all I need now is to understand what is meant by "SIP calls".

SIP is "Yet Another Protocol". One designed to implement the sorts
of features that you would encounter in a "high end PBX" -- but,
operating over IP networks (instead of hard-wired copper to the
PBX!). Contrast this with Skype's protocol...

It lets you initiate calls, receive calls, "transfer" calls, etc.
(calls can be all sorts of multimedia, not just "voice").

Just like having a HTTP-capable browser allows you to view
web pages, a SIP-enabled IP phone lets you participate in
voice comms over IP. E.g., you could have a gopher-enabled
client to access similar types of information "on the 'net"
but it wouldn't be able to access information served in HTTP
format! (similarly, an HTTP-enabled client/browser wouldn't be
able to access gopher services -- if any are still running! :> )

All you need to know is whether or not the handset you are using
to make your calls (or the ATA, etc. acting on your behalf)
supports SIP.

 

[David Platt]

I don't get it. This is not new technology. Has anyone found a decent
VOIP provider? I'd like to use my existing phone number (seems not all
will let you transfer a number) and port the device with me when I
travel. Ideally it would support E911 and allow me to easily update the
info when I travel.

I've been using two, for various purposes. I have an "outbound only,
pay by-the-minute as you go" account with Future Nine which we use for
most of our non-local calling (US and international). Outbound rates
in the US are on the order of a penny a minute. I can hit this one
via my Asterisk server (e.g. from home or when roving with my iPad),
and one of my devices has a second set of credentials which can access
and use it directly if I don't want to route the call through my home
system.

A couple of years ago I switched my wife's low-usage business number
over from a landline, to a VoIP DID from Vitelity. Porting the number
was straightforward. I chose the "flat fee per month for the DID,
plus cost-per-minute as actually used", prepaid. We pay (I think)
$1.50/month for the line, $1.50 for a local directory listing, and 1.2
cents per minute for inbound calls. She gets so few/short calls that
I'm not sure they've ever bothered to bill us for the minutes used

Both of these services have worked well... not perfectly, but quite
well. Probably better audio quality and reliability than most
cellphone connections.

I've seen recommendations for CallCentric but haven't dealt with them
myself.

As I understand it, land-line and cellphone and VoIP providers are all
required by the FCC to allow you to port *out* most phone numbers to
another carrier. They are not required to let you port *in* a number
from another carrier. Some may refuse to do so entirely; others will
accept port-in if your number is in a rate center they already
service, but may not accept a port-in for a number located outside of
their primary service areas.

Some VoIP providers accept only fixed termination points (i.e. you
need to have a fixed, static IP address) to terminate your DID.
Others use a standard SIP credential system, so your phone "registers"
with their server when it comes on-line. It's usually possible to
have two or more devices/endpoints register on a single account,
although in some cases only one of them will "ring" on inbound calls.
Depends on the provider.

I haven't seen any providers whose E911 provisioning will
*automatically* update when your endpoint moves around. Some
(e.g. Vitelity) let you update the E911 info yourself through a user
portal or control panel.

Some VoIP providers push (or insist upon) "package" plans... e.g. a
single DID, with a fairly large bundle of inbound and outbound
minutes. They sometimes include unlimited "free" minutes for calls
made to other subscribers on their own network. These plans sometimes
aren't a lot cheaper than a landline.

Most of them also support unbundled service offerings, where you pay
separately for a DID, minutes in, minutes out, E911, and directory
listing. These plans may be a much better deal if you have light
usage on your line.

Hope this helps!

 

[hamilton]

With the NSA keep tabs on all calls, (not listening of course) they
already know where the SCAMmers(tm) are calling from.

If the NSA want to get everyone on their side, let the NSA send a few
drones over those locations.

Maybe take out a few.

The message would be LOUD and clear.

h

 

[David Platt]

In article <kugeh2$iqf$1@dont-email.me>, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

What is SIP? I see this listed at the future-nine site, "Free outgoing
SIP calls". But the lowest plan charges per minute. So what is an SIP
call? I looked it up and I don't get why they are free. Are they
computer to computer and don't go through the PSTN network?

SIP is "Session Initiation Protocol". It's the commonest way for
setting up and managing a VoIP call.

SIP uses a generalized "localpart@domainname" addressing system. If
you're using a VoIP provider to reach phones on the PSTN, you would
typically being contacting your VoIP provider and sending something
like "12135551212@sip.myprovider.com" as the recipient ID. Your
provider would route the call to a PSTN switching interchange "near"
this 213-555-xxxx exchange, and then terminate the call onto the PSTN.

You can also use SIP to make calls which go nowhere near the PSTN.
If, for example, you were to make a call addressed to
"dave@my.home.domain.com" (or whatever my Asterisk server's hostname
is) the call would end up being routed to my Asterisk server over the
Internet, and then to one of my SIP softphones (e.g. here at work),
and would never go over the PSTN.

You can make such "direct" SIP calls without having a VoIP provider at
all, in a strictly peer-to-peer fashion... you just need to know the
right address. Such calls can be made "for free" (i.e. they're just
data on your broadband connection).

Their prices seem good but their site is not very clear. For example
most plans charge a monthly fee. The "Pay as you go" plan has no
monthly fee and charges per minute. But they charge monthly for a US
phone number... what? Doesn't having a phone imply that you have a
number? How is that different from charging a monthly fee?

Nope. It's entirely possible for you to *make* calls over SIP, which
are then terminated to the PSTN, without having a DID (phone number)
to which calls can be made.

The same is true in reverse. You can sign up for a DID, and for
inbound-call service (i.e. PSTN -> DID -> SIP -> your device), without
having the authority to make any *outbound* calls at all.

You'll pay monthly (usually) for having an inbound DID number, for
E911 service, and for a directory listing. You may pay a flat fee per
month, or per-minute, or both, for actual calls made and/or received.

This separation of "inbound call" and "outbound call" service is a bit
different than landline-phone users are used to thinking of. It's a
bit more complex but can have benefits.

Depending on rates and costs, you may want to have DID inbound
service from one company, and outbound-call service from one or more
other companies (better rates and coverage). One down-side to doing
this, is that you usually won't be able to persuade your "outbound
call" provider to place your "inbound DID" phone number in the
outbound calls' CallerID headers. If I call somebody using my Future
Nine account (outbound-only) the receipient sees a generic number
located somewhere in the midwest, not any of my own numbers.

 

[David Platt]

In article <kugb0l$t9m$1@dont-email.me>, John S <Sophi.2@invalid.org> wrote:

Nice features, including a personalized reject list, since the Federal
DoNotCall is a farce.

And a joke. I stopped reporting the calls because it does no good. Now I
look at the CID and, if it looks unfamiliar, I simply answer and hang up
immediately to stop the annoying ringing.

I terminate my wife's VoIP line to our Asterisk server, and I've
written up some custom call-processing logic to help deter "sales
slime" (her term).

Numbers which have been entered into a blacklist are dropped
immediately... Asterisk never answers them, but rejects them with a
"Congestion" condition. This results in a fast-busy at the far end,
and makes the number look as if it is not in service.

Originating numbers on a whitelist ring her phone immediately.

Originating numbers in our local area codes ring her phone
immediately.

All other numbers are answered, a voice message "Please wait to be
connected" is played, they hear music-on-hold for 10-15 seconds, and
(if they haven't given up) the phone rings.

For any call which actually rings her phone, the number is recorded.
If we hear the call (they all go to her answering machine) and it's
clearly a sales call, we can pick up the phone, dial 666, listen to
the number, and then hit 6 to add it to the blacklist. Further calls
from that number are dumped immediately, as above.

It's not a perfect system but has cut down the number of annoying
calls on that line by about 95%.

 

[Don Y]

Hi David,

On 8/14/2013 1:01 PM, David Platt wrote:

I haven't seen any providers whose E911 provisioning will
*automatically* update when your endpoint moves around. Some
(e.g. Vitelity) let you update the E911 info yourself through a user
portal or control panel.

Some VoIP providers push (or insist upon) "package" plans... e.g. a
single DID, with a fairly large bundle of inbound and outbound
minutes. They sometimes include unlimited "free" minutes for calls
made to other subscribers on their own network. These plans sometimes
aren't a lot cheaper than a landline.

Another of the key (critical?) differences between VoIP and
conventional land line is the "availability" of the service.
E.g., land lines are regulated, by statute. VoIP, AFAICT,
are "regulated" by the market -- if enough people are
disappointed with the price/performance, the provider goes
out of business. (Ditto cell carriers)

I want to have a VERY high expectation of being able to
contact 911, medical services, police, fire, etc. -- regardless
of whether or not my internet connection *and* VoIP provider
BOTH happen to be "up" at the time. E.g., I can recall
exactly *once* (in my lifetime) when I picked up a phone
and was unable to make a phone call -- and that was due to a
lightning strike taking out one of the handsets on *my* end
of the line!

OTOH, I've already experienced one extended "storm related" outage
with my current ISP...

YMMV, of course

 

[miso]

On 8/14/2013 12:11 PM, John S wrote:

On 8/14/2013 1:05 PM, miso wrote:

And a joke. I stopped reporting the calls because it does no good. Now I
look at the CID and, if it looks unfamiliar, I simply answer and hang up
immediately to stop the annoying ringing.


All those annoying call hide behind a CLEC. But so do a lot of legit
businesses. I wouldn't hang up on them immediately unless you are
forcing them to go to voicemail. Rachel from Credit Card Services
doesn't like voicemail.


So, you know her, too. After two or three times of encountering my
process, she never called back.

That's why I provide my cell number to important contacts. If I somehow
make a mistake and dump them on my business phone, then they can contact
me anyway.

Rachel has a consistent number, so she is in my contacts book. When her
name shows up on the phone, I know not to answer. But I don't make it a
point to dump all unknown callers.

I renamed Rachel to Fucking Spammer in the contacts. I hope she doesn't
mind.

 

[miso]

OTOH, I've already experienced one extended "storm related" outage
with my current ISP...

YMMV, of course

That is the problem with internet based anything. Few ISPs take service
seriously. My CPA lost her internet recently for about a day and a half.
She still has a POTS, but these tax people live off the IRS website, so
that really messed her up.

You need a modem that doesn't need booting, a router that doesn't need
booting, etc. If the power goes out, everything needs to start up after
a power outage. Say what you want about the phone company of yesteryear,
they do understand reliability.

I would tolerate devices that boot themselves, i.e. short outages. These
peddlers need to just accept that all software is buggy and incorporate
an analog watchdog scheme that will reboot the system independent of
software.

In analog we trust! Actually you can do digital watchdogs too, but the
watchdog has to be running code independent of the main cpu.

 

[Don Y]

Hi,

On 8/14/2013 2:06 PM, miso wrote:

OTOH, I've already experienced one extended "storm related" outage
with my current ISP...

YMMV, of course

That is the problem with internet based anything. Few ISPs take service
seriously. My CPA lost her internet recently for about a day and a half.
She still has a POTS, but these tax people live off the IRS website, so
that really messed her up.

You need a modem that doesn't need booting, a router that doesn't need
booting, etc. If the power goes out, everything needs to start up after
a power outage. Say what you want about the phone company of yesteryear,
they do understand reliability.

They *invested* in quality because it was *their* equipment (even
the handsets in your residence). E.g., the B in BORSCHT really
*is* a "battery"! (or, it *was* the last time I was in a CO)

I would tolerate devices that boot themselves, i.e. short outages. These
peddlers need to just accept that all software is buggy and incorporate

------------------------------------^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

an analog watchdog scheme that will reboot the system independent of
software.

The problem with software is people EXPECT "all software (to be)
buggy". When was the last time you returned a software product
(or software *based* product) due to buggy software? Chances
are, you grumbled and "lived with it".

Or, worse yet, blindly embraced (software) "upgrades" that effectively
*add* new sets of bugs (they call them "new features") instead of just
concentrating on fixing the existing "old" bugs.

E.g., I recently started "upgrading" my Windows (2KS) machines to
XP (scheduled for EOL in a few months!) I.e., I don't need any of
the "new features" (bugs) that a new VERSION of the OS brings with
it. Rather, let them fix as many bugs as they plan on fixing; then,
I will learn to live with those (for *another* 10 years -- just like
W2KS)

This is much easier to do in the FOSS world -- with *certain* products.
You can latch onto *a* release and just track changes to that release
without jumping to the *next* release each time someone wants to
stir the pot. (And, when support ends, you can support it yourself!)

In analog we trust! Actually you can do digital watchdogs too, but the
watchdog has to be running code independent of the main cpu.

Power supplies are crap. Yet, they are "analog" devices. And,
most are actually *designed* with very little margin. "Designed
to fail" (eventually). Someone made a cost/benefit tradeoff and
decided to trim the margin/derating that they applied to the
design.

The same thing happens in software -- except the tradeoff isn't
as explicit. It boils down to trading "test/validation efforts"
against the probability of customers stumbling on a particular
"bug" and abandoning the product/product line/manufacturer.

You can come up with a reasonably thorough characterization for
a resistor, capacitor, active, etc. Getting the same for a piece
of software (esp COTS software) is much more "expensive". So,
folks roll the dice and hope they can move on to another product
before their sins catch up to them!

Until people start *expecting* and *demanding* more from the
products for which they trade their dollars, those products
have little incentive to improve!