Driving Too Slow...

R

Rick C

Guest
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 3:57:27 AM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 20/01/22 02:07, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 5:06:26 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:

The *big* problem in the UK is that there are plenty of non working
chargers shown as working on the various apps! Many tales of woe even in
the south where they are relatively plentiful. Up north you are stuffed.

The supercharging hubs they have built are unable to get supply so are
nothing more than useless boondoggles. This one near me is useless:

https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/19839979.yorks-flagship-electric-vehicle-charging-hub-still-not-open/

It\'s a joke. Opening was cancelled yet again. No electricity!
(which is a bit of a serious problem for a charging station)

The article talks about \"legal agreements\" rather than actual access to the
grid. You make it sound as if they simply don\'t have a grid for them to
connect to. Do you have more details on just what the issue is?
I don\'t have knowledge of this particular case, but \"legal agreement\"
could mean anything. A couple of options are:
- insufficient local capacity in the network to charge 30 cars
at full rate
- arguments about who pays for a network upgrade to allow that
- rights of way problems for upgrading
- etc

Ok, but you are just making this up as you go. No basis for any of it.


It wouldn\'t surprise me if it had been constructed where space
is available, and guessing there weren\'t other problems.

What surprises you if of little relevance.

--

Rick C.

+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
R

Rick C

Guest
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 3:59:11 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
On 20/01/2022 02:07, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 5:06:26 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:

The *big* problem in the UK is that there are plenty of non working
chargers shown as working on the various apps! Many tales of woe even in
the south where they are relatively plentiful. Up north you are stuffed.

The supercharging hubs they have built are unable to get supply so are
nothing more than useless boondoggles. This one near me is useless:

https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/19839979.yorks-flagship-electric-vehicle-charging-hub-still-not-open/

It\'s a joke. Opening was cancelled yet again. No electricity!
(which is a bit of a serious problem for a charging station)

The article talks about \"legal agreements\" rather than actual access to the grid. You make it sound as if they simply don\'t have a grid for them to connect to. Do you have more details on just what the issue is?
Who pays for connecting it up and the supply tariffs when they do.

Why are you asking me???


I\'ve seen no small number of Tesla Superchargers held up after all the work is done because new requirements were added by the inspectors. In one case that had dragged on for months the last issue pointed out after everything else had been failed and fixed... one at a time... was about stickers that explained the emergency disconnect was on a different level of the parking deck.

Basically in London and the SE there is enough physical infrastructure
for EVs to make sense (but almost zero electricity generating capacity).

In the North I would have to drive around 50 miles (a long way in the
UK) to my nearest public supercharger. The physically nearest private
one is about 5 miles away at a very high end country house hotel. Snag
is they expect you to dine there and stay the night to have use of it.

Rural mains is nowhere near the capacity needed to handle everyone with
a nightly 7kW load. Several larger farms and businesses around me have
their own diesel generator kit because the local network cannot supply
all of the electricity they need to operate at some times of year.

There are a lot of people who want to be experts on why EVs are not possible in their area. I think the UK may be a place where this is partly true, just not for the reasons you seem to think. In many ways the UK seems like a third world country with a power grid that is more fragile than what we have in Puerto Rico. But mostly this is not relevant. Here are some facts..

The \"grid\" doesn\'t need to support a \"nightly 7 kW load\" for every EV. In the US, drivers average 30 miles a day. I think the UK is about the same. That is a grand total of less than 8 kWh or less than a single space heater for around 6 hours (in the US they are 1.44 kW). In the US you could charge this on a 120V outlet. No, if every home in the US added this nightly load, it would have zero impact on the grid other than to help amortize the fixed costs of maintaining the \"grid\" lowering everyone\'s bills a bit. I don\'t think I\'ve heard as much resistance to EVs from anywhere as I do from the UK. Instead of spouting absurd numbers, why don\'t people in the UK *think* about the issue instead of blabbing how hard it will be to use EVs or to power them from renewable sources? Is the UK as resistant to every technological advance?

--

Rick C.

+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
A

Arnie Dwyer (ex Jan Frank)

Guest
Martin Brown <\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

Basically in London and the SE there is enough physical infrastructure
for EVs to make sense (but almost zero electricity generating capacity).

In the North I would have to drive around 50 miles (a long way in the
UK) to my nearest public supercharger. The physically nearest private
one is about 5 miles away at a very high end country house hotel. Snag
is they expect you to dine there and stay the night to have use of it.

Rural mains is nowhere near the capacity needed to handle everyone with
a nightly 7kW load. Several larger farms and businesses around me have
their own diesel generator kit because the local network cannot supply
all of the electricity they need to operate at some times of year.

So you have to continue using ICE? How are you going to sustain population
growth, let alone meet your global warming commitments?

Quote:

\"The government has a commitment to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by the
United Kingdom by 50% on 1990 levels by 2025 and to net zero by 2050. In
May 2019, Parliament declared a \'climate change emergency\', however this
does not legally compel the government to act.\"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_in_the_United_Kingdom

Sounds like someone needs to start looking at Molten Salt Reactors. These
run at atmospheric pressure and don\'t need the huge containment vessels of
conventional nuclear reactors, so they are much faster and cheaper to build
and operate:

Thorium Lifters Could Power Civilization for BILLIONS of Years!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=74iiaXIVtZI

Molten-Salt Reactor Choices - Kirk Sorensen of Flibe Energy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz49CB8XGQo
 
J

John Larkin

Guest
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\"
<fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

It\'s much worse on a long mountain uphill in a blizzard. You can\'t
even afford to run the heater.

It doesn\'t matter because you won\'t have any type of car when they
finally ban ICE with no intention of building the 200GW of generator
capacity needed to replace them with EV\'s. Hopefully they\'ll establish a
bus route up that mountain.

Once the power grids start to collapse, and people can\'t charge their
Teslas or heat their homes in the winter (which is happening already)
there will be an anti-renewable political reaction.

Of course, experts tell us we\'ll all be dead in nine years.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon
 
J

Jim Jackson

Guest
On 2022-01-20, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
Of course, experts tell us we\'ll all be dead in nine years.

I\'ve missed that one. Which experts and references please?
 
L

Lasse Langwadt Christensen

Guest
torsdag den 20. januar 2022 kl. 19.38.44 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\"
fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

It\'s much worse on a long mountain uphill in a blizzard. You can\'t
even afford to run the heater.

It doesn\'t matter because you won\'t have any type of car when they
finally ban ICE with no intention of building the 200GW of generator
capacity needed to replace them with EV\'s. Hopefully they\'ll establish a
bus route up that mountain.
Once the power grids start to collapse, and people can\'t charge their
Teslas or heat their homes in the winter (which is happening already)
there will be an anti-renewable political reaction.

kinda started already, on one hand people complaint politician don\'t take
global warming serious and are not ambitious enough pushing for green energy
and at the same time people complain that the politicians don\'t reduce the tax
on energy now that energy has had a large increase in price
 
R

Rick C

Guest
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 3:03:14 PM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
On 20/01/2022 11:41, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 3:59:11 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
On 20/01/2022 02:07, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 5:06:26 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:

The *big* problem in the UK is that there are plenty of non working
chargers shown as working on the various apps! Many tales of woe even in
the south where they are relatively plentiful. Up north you are stuffed.

The supercharging hubs they have built are unable to get supply so are
nothing more than useless boondoggles. This one near me is useless:

https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/19839979.yorks-flagship-electric-vehicle-charging-hub-still-not-open/

It\'s a joke. Opening was cancelled yet again. No electricity!
(which is a bit of a serious problem for a charging station)

The article talks about \"legal agreements\" rather than actual access to the grid. You make it sound as if they simply don\'t have a grid for them to connect to. Do you have more details on just what the issue is?
Who pays for connecting it up and the supply tariffs when they do.

Why are you asking me???
That is the answer to the question of \"why they are still not
operational?\". They cannot agree commercial contract terms between the
energy supplier and the owner of the site with the chargers on!

I\'m sorry, you are just being silly about all this. \"Tariffs\" and the rest of the contracts were signed before any construction was begun. Why do you make up such things rather than just saying you don\'t know any more details?


UK electricity supply is a mess with zillions of electricity \"suppliers\"
who do nothing but bill consumers. They are going bust at the moment
left, right and centre since they have no generation capacity and by a
peculiar price cap law are forced to sell electricity at a lower price
than they are paying for it. I know this sounds like something from
\"Alice in Wonderland\" but I assure you it is true. More than 30 UK
\"electricity suppliers\" have gone bust in the last 3 months.

I don\'t really care. Nothing to do with me or EVs.


It is complete madness - they are merely clueless book keepers not
electricity suppliers. Electricity generation is a separate business.
I\'ve seen no small number of Tesla Superchargers held up after all the work is done because new requirements were added by the inspectors. In one case that had dragged on for months the last issue pointed out after everything else had been failed and fixed... one at a time... was about stickers that explained the emergency disconnect was on a different level of the parking deck.

Basically in London and the SE there is enough physical infrastructure
for EVs to make sense (but almost zero electricity generating capacity).

In the North I would have to drive around 50 miles (a long way in the
UK) to my nearest public supercharger. The physically nearest private
one is about 5 miles away at a very high end country house hotel. Snag
is they expect you to dine there and stay the night to have use of it.

Rural mains is nowhere near the capacity needed to handle everyone with
a nightly 7kW load. Several larger farms and businesses around me have
their own diesel generator kit because the local network cannot supply
all of the electricity they need to operate at some times of year.

There are a lot of people who want to be experts on why EVs are not possible in their area. I think the UK may be a place where this is partly true, just not for the reasons you seem to think. In many ways the UK seems like a third world country with a power grid that is more fragile than what we have in Puerto Rico. But mostly this is not relevant. Here are some facts..

The \"grid\" doesn\'t need to support a \"nightly 7 kW load\" for every EV. In the US, drivers average 30 miles a day. I think the UK is about the same.. That is a grand total of less than 8 kWh or less than a single space heater for around 6 hours (in the US they are 1.44 kW). In the US you could charge this on a 120V outlet. No, if every home in the US added this nightly load, it would have zero impact on the grid other than to help amortize the fixed costs of maintaining the \"grid\" lowering everyone\'s bills a bit. I don\'t think I\'ve heard as much resistance to EVs from anywhere as I do from the UK. Instead of spouting absurd numbers, why don\'t people in the UK *think* about the issue instead of blabbing how hard it will be to use EVs or to power them from renewable sources? Is the UK as resistant to every technological advance?
UK can barely make enough electricity to stay warm at this time of year.

Yeah, I\'ve heard. I made the mistake of getting into a discussion about EVs in a UK ham radio group. There were those who thought EVs are impossible in the UK for many, many reasons including the impossibility of finding a way to charge in the sense of \"where do you put all the outlets\"? They sent me pictures of cars parked half on sidewalks as the norm making curb side charging impractical as if that was very commonplace. Then of course some calculated every kW EVs would need as adding to the peak use times all the while acknowledging there are many who, for better rates, heat bricks off peak for heating, all the while claiming this was terrible for some reason. It was hugely emotional and many were clearly angry that a Yank was telling them it was possible. Ok, so I agree, the UK is so backward that EVs are not practical.


We are pretty much reliant on French nuclear generation and continental
interconnectors if it is a grey windless day. Too bad if it is cold in
France at the same time - they will serve their own needs first.

I thought the cross channel electric connections were rather limited.


Successive governments have prevaricated on new nuclear and now the shit
is about to hit the fan. I have to agree that the UK infrastructure is
at near third world levels with the recent large scale outage in the
North of England as classic demonstration of just how low we have sunk.

I\'ve read quite a bit about UK nuclear construction, 1 very overrun project coming to fruition soon (for varying values of \"soon\") and talk of allowing construction overruns to be passed onto the consumer for future projects (no incentive to control overruns then). I prefer the US approach, let them either succeed or fail on their own. If nuclear can\'t compete, why subsidize it? It\'s not a nascent industry, just a money sink.


Today\'s news is they have just refused planning permission for another
badly needed interconnector. You couldn\'t make it up!

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/kwarteng-turns-down-aquind-channel-energy-cable-at-centre-of-donor-row-jtbn3xtmv

Paywall...


They have been paying large users to shutdown heavily energy intensive
production during winter months for a few years now. The rot really set
in when Centrica closed the gas storage buffer in Yorkshire in 2017

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/20/uk-gas-storage-prices-rough-british-gas-centrica

That leaves UK electricity generation after the dash for gas incredibly
exposed to the spot market price for natural gas (now extortionate).

So storage at night and usage during the day is needed, eh? How much is the current bill for shutting plants? Maybe batteries would be profitable? Or instead of paying them to shut down, maybe change the billing to an increasing kWh rate with higher usage. In my home county the power company gave an aluminum refinery a break on electric prices (it\'s done by electrolysis, so some electron per atom of aluminum). Some years later the company was looking at a rate hike when the power company ended their price break. The company left for Canada I believe, much better energy costs there. I say good riddance. They used to emit fluorine which would kill dairy cows when they ate the grass.

--

Rick C.

++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
R

Rick C

Guest
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 3:09:12 PM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
torsdag den 20. januar 2022 kl. 19.38.44 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\"
fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

It\'s much worse on a long mountain uphill in a blizzard. You can\'t
even afford to run the heater.

It doesn\'t matter because you won\'t have any type of car when they
finally ban ICE with no intention of building the 200GW of generator
capacity needed to replace them with EV\'s. Hopefully they\'ll establish a
bus route up that mountain.
Once the power grids start to collapse, and people can\'t charge their
Teslas or heat their homes in the winter (which is happening already)
there will be an anti-renewable political reaction.
kinda started already, on one hand people complaint politician don\'t take
global warming serious and are not ambitious enough pushing for green energy
and at the same time people complain that the politicians don\'t reduce the tax
on energy now that energy has had a large increase in price

Probably not the same people. What energy prices have increased? Seems to me pretty much all fuels and energies have been stable for some time now, no? Maybe that\'s just the US?

--

Rick C.

+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
M

Martin Brown

Guest
On 21/01/2022 05:38, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 3:03:14 PM UTC-5, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 20/01/2022 11:41, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 3:59:11 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 20/01/2022 02:07, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 5:06:26 AM UTC-5, Martin
Brown wrote:

The *big* problem in the UK is that there are plenty of non
working chargers shown as working on the various apps! Many
tales of woe even in the south where they are relatively
plentiful. Up north you are stuffed.

The supercharging hubs they have built are unable to get
supply so are nothing more than useless boondoggles. This
one near me is useless:

https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/19839979.yorks-flagship-electric-vehicle-charging-hub-still-not-open/



It\'s a joke. Opening was cancelled yet again. No electricity!
(which is a bit of a serious problem for a charging
station)

The article talks about \"legal agreements\" rather than actual
access to the grid. You make it sound as if they simply don\'t
have a grid for them to connect to. Do you have more details
on just what the issue is?
Who pays for connecting it up and the supply tariffs when they
do.

Why are you asking me???

That is the answer to the question of \"why they are still not
operational?\". They cannot agree commercial contract terms between
the energy supplier and the owner of the site with the chargers
on!

I\'m sorry, you are just being silly about all this. \"Tariffs\" and
the rest of the contracts were signed before any construction was
begun. Why do you make up such things rather than just saying you
don\'t know any more details?

I\'m sorry, you are just being silly about all this. \"Tariffs\" and
the rest of the contracts were signed before any construction was
begun. Why do you make up such things?

Why don\'t you read the articles I linked to.

This one from an earlier cancellation of opening last September spells
it out in the first paragraph!

https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/19555455.vehicle-charging-hub-york-still-shut---no-power/

First three sentences quoted verbatim below in case it is paywalled from
outside the UK:

\"A FLAGSHIP charging centre for electric vehicles - originally due to
open on York’s outskirts in July - is still fenced off and closed
following delays in connecting it to the electricity grid.

Council officials said yesterday that they were still finalising
commercial and contractual arrangements before the York HyperHub at
Monks Cross could open later this year.

The complex, situated at the entrance to the Monks Cross Park&Ride car
park, will be one of the largest charging hubs in Northern England and
will aim to act as a demonstration of best practice for the design of EV
charging facilities.\"

I find the last paragraph particularly ironic. It still *isn\'t* open and
had another high profile *not*opening date pass very recently.

UK electricity supply is a mess with zillions of electricity
\"suppliers\" who do nothing but bill consumers. They are going bust
at the moment left, right and centre since they have no generation
capacity and by a peculiar price cap law are forced to sell
electricity at a lower price than they are paying for it. I know
this sounds like something from \"Alice in Wonderland\" but I assure
you it is true. More than 30 UK \"electricity suppliers\" have gone
bust in the last 3 months.

I don\'t really care. Nothing to do with me or EVs.

It has everything to do with EVs. If there isn\'t enough electricity to
go around then there is no prospect of running all these EVs.

UK can barely make enough electricity to stay warm at this time of
year.

Yeah, I\'ve heard. I made the mistake of getting into a discussion
about EVs in a UK ham radio group. There were those who thought EVs
are impossible in the UK for many, many reasons including the
impossibility of finding a way to charge in the sense of \"where do
you put all the outlets\"? They sent me pictures of cars parked half
on sidewalks as the norm making curb side charging impractical as if
that was very commonplace.

It is commonplace in most of the larger cities with terraced housing.
Suburban streets with wider pavements (sidewalks) have been converted to
carparking. Remember that a lot of UK housing was built long before
owning a car was something the ordinary person could ever hope to do.

Many smaller houses come with nowhere to park a car. Mid size houses
don\'t come with enough space to park the number of cars a family might
own. Paving over the entire front garden for parking is common. This
causes interesting problems of flash flooding from runoff. We don\'t have
separate fresh water storm drains so it makes sewage plants overflow.

I hesitate to put a figure on it but perhaps as high as 25% terraced
housing in many inner cities. Where I live there is a lot of space.

Have you ever been to the UK? It is quite a crowded little island.

Then of course some calculated every kW
EVs would need as adding to the peak use times all the while
acknowledging there are many who, for better rates, heat bricks off
peak for heating, all the while claiming this was terrible for some
reason. It was hugely emotional and many were clearly angry that a
Yank was telling them it was possible. Ok, so I agree, the UK is so
backward that EVs are not practical.

UK electricity distribution is so backwards and now becoming unreliable
due to them cutting back on maintenance and overheads (ie staff who
actually know what they are doing). How else do you explain the recent
nearly two week outage in parts of Northern England after storm Arwen
(which really wasn\'t all that extreme). The network infrastructure has
been allowed to decay by penny pinching bean counters in London.

After our local 2 day outage we have been around and found several
electricity poles on the edge of failing. They are either visibly loose
in the ground, rotten or thinned down at shoulder height by beast
rubbing against them so that a once 10\" diameter pole is under 4\".

We are pretty much reliant on French nuclear generation and
continental interconnectors if it is a grey windless day. Too bad
if it is cold in France at the same time - they will serve their
own needs first.

I thought the cross channel electric connections were rather
limited.

They are relatively limited. More so at the moment one is down!
But they are essential to UK supply integrity now.

Successive governments have prevaricated on new nuclear and now the
shit is about to hit the fan. I have to agree that the UK
infrastructure is at near third world levels with the recent large
scale outage in the North of England as classic demonstration of
just how low we have sunk.

I\'ve read quite a bit about UK nuclear construction, 1 very overrun
project coming to fruition soon (for varying values of \"soon\") and
talk of allowing construction overruns to be passed onto the consumer
for future projects (no incentive to control overruns then). I
prefer the US approach, let them either succeed or fail on their own.
If nuclear can\'t compete, why subsidize it? It\'s not a nascent
industry, just a money sink.

It is low carbon electricity if you can make it work.
They have been paying large users to shutdown heavily energy
intensive production during winter months for a few years now. The
rot really set in when Centrica closed the gas storage buffer in
Yorkshire in 2017

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/20/uk-gas-storage-prices-rough-british-gas-centrica



That leaves UK electricity generation after the dash for gas incredibly
exposed to the spot market price for natural gas (now
extortionate).

So storage at night and usage during the day is needed, eh? How much
is the current bill for shutting plants? Maybe batteries would be
profitable? Or instead of paying them to shut down, maybe change the
billing to an increasing kWh rate with higher usage. In my home

There is a pumped storage plant in Wales - one of the biggest in the
world but it is still miniscule compared to total UK power usage.

Australia has a battery farm somewhere that buffers peak load and is
profitable. The only one I know of in the UK is a toy near Oxford.

https://www.energy-storage.news/huge-achievement-as-50mw-battery-system-is-first-to-export-to-uk-grid-from-tertiary-connection/

county the power company gave an aluminum refinery a break on
electric prices (it\'s done by electrolysis, so some electron per atom
of aluminum). Some years later the company was looking at a rate
hike when the power company ended their price break. The company
left for Canada I believe, much better energy costs there. I say

UK has chloralkaline and aluminium (not sure if it is still there) as
the consumers of last resort. The former can absorb vast amounts of
power and isn\'t too upset if they get none at all. Makes them very
favourable as a load balancing tool for the national grid. I think they
get exceptionally good rates for accepting a very intermittent supply.

We used to have a steel industry but there is almost nothing left.

good riddance. They used to emit fluorine which would kill dairy
cows when they ate the grass.

Shouldn\'t they have been scrubbing their exhaust gasses through lime?
CaF2 is about the most insoluble thing known.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
 
M

Martin Brown

Guest
On 21/01/2022 05:40, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 3:09:12 PM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
torsdag den 20. januar 2022 kl. 19.38.44 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\"
fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

It\'s much worse on a long mountain uphill in a blizzard. You can\'t
even afford to run the heater.

It doesn\'t matter because you won\'t have any type of car when they
finally ban ICE with no intention of building the 200GW of generator
capacity needed to replace them with EV\'s. Hopefully they\'ll establish a
bus route up that mountain.
Once the power grids start to collapse, and people can\'t charge their
Teslas or heat their homes in the winter (which is happening already)
there will be an anti-renewable political reaction.
kinda started already, on one hand people complaint politician don\'t take
global warming serious and are not ambitious enough pushing for green energy
and at the same time people complain that the politicians don\'t reduce the tax
on energy now that energy has had a large increase in price

Probably not the same people. What energy prices have increased?

Natural gas prices have gone through the roof!
Nearly an order of magnitude higher prices on the spot market.
That is what is driving all the UK energy box shifters into bankruptcy.

> Seems to me pretty much all fuels and energies have been stable for some time now, no? Maybe that\'s just the US?

This graph from a US source says otherwise:

https://www.eia.gov/naturalgas/weekly/

Natural gas prices have spiked this winter at between 7-10x what they
were earlier last year and show every sign of going higher as users
compete for the relatively small amounts available to buy for import.

It could get a hell of a lot worse if Russia invades Ukraine and the
West imposes trade sanctions. Then in a tit-for-tat measure Russia cuts
off supply to the European gas pipeline(s). Mid-winter is not a good
time to be without gas. So far the price is just incredibly high.

So high in fact that some major UK industries shut down production
completely which then caused a nationwide shortage of CO2. They had to
be bribed by the government to restart fertiliser production and have
been charging a massive premium off their customers ever since.

https://www.ft.com/content/991db1b7-ab0e-49fb-999c-3bf5bef2a93a

UK electricity production would fail within a week under that scenario.
Most other European countries have larger natural gas buffer stocks.
(a month or more)

--
Regards,
Martin Brown
 
R

Ralph Mowery

Guest
In article <8bb80dc1-dffe-44fe-9232-e211996c5e31n@googlegroups.com>,
gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com says...
So storage at night and usage during the day is needed, eh? How much is the current bill for shutting plants? Maybe batteries would be profitable? Or instead of paying them to shut down, maybe change the billing to an increasing kWh rate with higher usage. In my home county the power company gave an aluminum refinery a break
on electric prices (it\'s done by electrolysis, so some electron per atom of aluminum). Some years later the company was looking at a rate hike when the power company ended their price break. The company left for Canada I believe, much better energy costs there. I say good riddance. They used to emit fluorine which would kill
dairy cows when they ate the grass.

In my county in NC there was an aluminum plant that generated its own
power. After about 30 years they shut down the smelting operation and
started selling the power to the grid.
 
S

server

Guest
On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 12:09:07 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

torsdag den 20. januar 2022 kl. 19.38.44 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\"
fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

It\'s much worse on a long mountain uphill in a blizzard. You can\'t
even afford to run the heater.

It doesn\'t matter because you won\'t have any type of car when they
finally ban ICE with no intention of building the 200GW of generator
capacity needed to replace them with EV\'s. Hopefully they\'ll establish a
bus route up that mountain.
Once the power grids start to collapse, and people can\'t charge their
Teslas or heat their homes in the winter (which is happening already)
there will be an anti-renewable political reaction.

kinda started already, on one hand people complaint politician don\'t take
global warming serious and are not ambitious enough pushing for green energy
and at the same time people complain that the politicians don\'t reduce the tax
on energy now that energy has had a large increase in price

On some days, California pays Arizona to take our excess solar power.
On other days, we buy their coal-generated power.



--

I yam what I yam - Popeye
 
J

John Larkin

Guest
On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 19:29:58 -0000 (UTC), Jim Jackson
<jj@franjam.org.uk> wrote:

On 2022-01-20, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

Of course, experts tell us we\'ll all be dead in nine years.

I\'ve missed that one. Which experts and references please?

https://news.yahoo.com/leonardo-dicaprio-puts-nine-ticking-184911367.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJVqMhL5Spg2rXfNM-OJb6H2Ioh6lUxQfzhtrW4YEqiUP1wCkBlQ_qUVET3Nc1VIekV64L1eHcfN3NOh1qu5yfKCXMg6Noigr8DijOTil-ud7PmzQRXm1wKqKxSn8HeuStxEQRDA2XLPO6QG2ZD35RiKxzxWldQFqKA60ulX0yfu

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon
 
C

Cydrome Leader

Guest
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\"
fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

It\'s much worse on a long mountain uphill in a blizzard. You can\'t
even afford to run the heater.

It doesn\'t matter because you won\'t have any type of car when they
finally ban ICE with no intention of building the 200GW of generator
capacity needed to replace them with EV\'s. Hopefully they\'ll establish a
bus route up that mountain.

Once the power grids start to collapse, and people can\'t charge their
Teslas or heat their homes in the winter (which is happening already)
there will be an anti-renewable political reaction.

Of course, experts tell us we\'ll all be dead in nine years.

I had to reming some folks that were excited about electric only homes that
have no gas (some sort of commiefornia and NYC movement) that their
electric probably comes from gas and and mayber 18% coal, but with needing
least 20% more than they\'d need for on-site heating need due to transmission
losses.

It was crickets after that.
 
W

wmartin

Guest
On 1/21/22 07:18, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 20 Jan 2022 12:09:07 -0800 (PST), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

torsdag den 20. januar 2022 kl. 19.38.44 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\"
fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

It\'s much worse on a long mountain uphill in a blizzard. You can\'t
even afford to run the heater.

It doesn\'t matter because you won\'t have any type of car when they
finally ban ICE with no intention of building the 200GW of generator
capacity needed to replace them with EV\'s. Hopefully they\'ll establish a
bus route up that mountain.
Once the power grids start to collapse, and people can\'t charge their
Teslas or heat their homes in the winter (which is happening already)
there will be an anti-renewable political reaction.

kinda started already, on one hand people complaint politician don\'t take
global warming serious and are not ambitious enough pushing for green energy
and at the same time people complain that the politicians don\'t reduce the tax
on energy now that energy has had a large increase in price


On some days, California pays Arizona to take our excess solar power.
On other days, we buy their coal-generated power.
Yeah, great business intellects run this state!
 
J

John Larkin

Guest
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
<presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\"
fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

It\'s much worse on a long mountain uphill in a blizzard. You can\'t
even afford to run the heater.

It doesn\'t matter because you won\'t have any type of car when they
finally ban ICE with no intention of building the 200GW of generator
capacity needed to replace them with EV\'s. Hopefully they\'ll establish a
bus route up that mountain.

Once the power grids start to collapse, and people can\'t charge their
Teslas or heat their homes in the winter (which is happening already)
there will be an anti-renewable political reaction.

Of course, experts tell us we\'ll all be dead in nine years.

I had to reming some folks that were excited about electric only homes that
have no gas (some sort of commiefornia and NYC movement) that their
electric probably comes from gas and and mayber 18% coal, but with needing
least 20% more than they\'d need for on-site heating need due to transmission
losses.

It was crickets after that.

Resistive electric heating would be terrible. A heat pump is better.

Thermodynamically, a 1000c or whatever gas flame is inefficiently
coupled to heat house air to 25c. An ideal steam generator and an
ideal heat pump would be far more efficient use of gas.

I don\'t know about the real life numbers.

Instead of solar panels, we could have gas fired steam engines, where
the discharge heat warms our domestic air and hot water, and we get
free electricity from the otherwise wasted delta-t. That works when
the sun is down.

I considered adding a heat exchanger from our heater flue gas to the
water heater inlet, but the payoff is small for the effort. In our
climate, we don\'t run the heater a lot.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon
 
R

Rick C

Guest
On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 6:24:41 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
On 21/01/2022 05:38, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 3:03:14 PM UTC-5, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 20/01/2022 11:41, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 3:59:11 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown
wrote:
On 20/01/2022 02:07, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 5:06:26 AM UTC-5, Martin
Brown wrote:

The *big* problem in the UK is that there are plenty of non
working chargers shown as working on the various apps! Many
tales of woe even in the south where they are relatively
plentiful. Up north you are stuffed.

The supercharging hubs they have built are unable to get
supply so are nothing more than useless boondoggles. This
one near me is useless:

https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/19839979.yorks-flagship-electric-vehicle-charging-hub-still-not-open/



It\'s a joke. Opening was cancelled yet again. No electricity!
(which is a bit of a serious problem for a charging
station)

The article talks about \"legal agreements\" rather than actual
access to the grid. You make it sound as if they simply don\'t
have a grid for them to connect to. Do you have more details
on just what the issue is?
Who pays for connecting it up and the supply tariffs when they
do.

Why are you asking me???

That is the answer to the question of \"why they are still not
operational?\". They cannot agree commercial contract terms between
the energy supplier and the owner of the site with the chargers
on!

I\'m sorry, you are just being silly about all this. \"Tariffs\" and
the rest of the contracts were signed before any construction was
begun. Why do you make up such things rather than just saying you
don\'t know any more details?


I\'m sorry, you are just being silly about all this. \"Tariffs\" and
the rest of the contracts were signed before any construction was
begun. Why do you make up such things?

Why don\'t you read the articles I linked to.

This one from an earlier cancellation of opening last September spells
it out in the first paragraph!

https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/19555455.vehicle-charging-hub-york-still-shut---no-power/

First three sentences quoted verbatim below in case it is paywalled from
outside the UK:

\"A FLAGSHIP charging centre for electric vehicles - originally due to
open on York’s outskirts in July - is still fenced off and closed
following delays in connecting it to the electricity grid.

Council officials said yesterday that they were still finalising
commercial and contractual arrangements before the York HyperHub at
Monks Cross could open later this year.

The complex, situated at the entrance to the Monks Cross Park&Ride car
park, will be one of the largest charging hubs in Northern England and
will aim to act as a demonstration of best practice for the design of EV
charging facilities.\"

I find the last paragraph particularly ironic. It still *isn\'t* open and
had another high profile *not*opening date pass very recently.

Where does that say anything about \"tariffs\"???

Do you read what you write???

They don\'t actually \"spell out\" anything. \"were still finalizing commercial and contractual arrangements\" is as close as they come. That could mean anything.

In the US local utility rates are regulated by local boards, usually at the state level. Generation is a competitive matter with the freedom to buy from whom you want. I don\'t know exactly how they do things in the UK, but if they didn\'t have electrical supply lined up prior to constructing the facility, that is simply incompetent program management.

If you read back though this discussion you have made unsupported statements several times and never followed through on demonstrating they are true. Now you cite an article that says what I said it said, they are finalizing \"legal agreements\", which you somehow interpret is setting tariffs, otherwise known as rates. This started with you claiming chargers were \"unable to get supply\". That\'s not the same thing as they were too incompetent to line up the electrical source before they started construction.


UK electricity supply is a mess with zillions of electricity
\"suppliers\" who do nothing but bill consumers. They are going bust
at the moment left, right and centre since they have no generation
capacity and by a peculiar price cap law are forced to sell
electricity at a lower price than they are paying for it. I know
this sounds like something from \"Alice in Wonderland\" but I assure
you it is true. More than 30 UK \"electricity suppliers\" have gone
bust in the last 3 months.

I don\'t really care. Nothing to do with me or EVs.
It has everything to do with EVs. If there isn\'t enough electricity to
go around then there is no prospect of running all these EVs.

LOL!!! All this time and you have learned NOTHING about EVs. Or maybe you are just a troll. Here, one more time I will explain it to you like you are a 10 year old.

You can charge an EV from the same outlet you run your kettle on. Yup, I believe that is 3 kW which would allow you to add 120 miles in a 10 hour overnight charge which would come from excess capacity. I believe it would be no problem at all to add a higher current outlet if this doesn\'t suit you, but the average daily drive is only 30 miles. I expect a 120 mile overnight charge would suit the 99.9th percentile with no added generation, transmission or distribution.


UK can barely make enough electricity to stay warm at this time of
year.

Yeah, I\'ve heard. I made the mistake of getting into a discussion
about EVs in a UK ham radio group. There were those who thought EVs
are impossible in the UK for many, many reasons including the
impossibility of finding a way to charge in the sense of \"where do
you put all the outlets\"? They sent me pictures of cars parked half
on sidewalks as the norm making curb side charging impractical as if
that was very commonplace.
It is commonplace in most of the larger cities with terraced housing.
Suburban streets with wider pavements (sidewalks) have been converted to
carparking. Remember that a lot of UK housing was built long before
owning a car was something the ordinary person could ever hope to do.

Many smaller houses come with nowhere to park a car. Mid size houses
don\'t come with enough space to park the number of cars a family might
own. Paving over the entire front garden for parking is common. This
causes interesting problems of flash flooding from runoff. We don\'t have
separate fresh water storm drains so it makes sewage plants overflow.

I hesitate to put a figure on it but perhaps as high as 25% terraced
housing in many inner cities. Where I live there is a lot of space.

Ok, then no EVs for you. You can be the last customer of OPEC.


Have you ever been to the UK? It is quite a crowded little island.
Then of course some calculated every kW
EVs would need as adding to the peak use times all the while
acknowledging there are many who, for better rates, heat bricks off
peak for heating, all the while claiming this was terrible for some
reason. It was hugely emotional and many were clearly angry that a
Yank was telling them it was possible. Ok, so I agree, the UK is so
backward that EVs are not practical.
UK electricity distribution is so backwards and now becoming unreliable
due to them cutting back on maintenance and overheads (ie staff who
actually know what they are doing). How else do you explain the recent
nearly two week outage in parts of Northern England after storm Arwen
(which really wasn\'t all that extreme). The network infrastructure has
been allowed to decay by penny pinching bean counters in London.

Yeah, I heard no shortage of stories about degrading cables with aluminum sheathing and many other problems.


After our local 2 day outage we have been around and found several
electricity poles on the edge of failing. They are either visibly loose
in the ground, rotten or thinned down at shoulder height by beast
rubbing against them so that a once 10\" diameter pole is under 4\".

Yeah, it\'s pretty clear that the UK would totally fail if they had to fight the Battle of Brittan again.


We are pretty much reliant on French nuclear generation and
continental interconnectors if it is a grey windless day. Too bad
if it is cold in France at the same time - they will serve their
own needs first.

I thought the cross channel electric connections were rather
limited.
They are relatively limited. More so at the moment one is down!
But they are essential to UK supply integrity now.

The UK seems hell bent on nuclear even though the current project is years late and billions over budget. I guess that\'s what you get when you turn to the French for technology. Maybe you should check in with the Chinese? Maybe they can help you?


Successive governments have prevaricated on new nuclear and now the
shit is about to hit the fan. I have to agree that the UK
infrastructure is at near third world levels with the recent large
scale outage in the North of England as classic demonstration of
just how low we have sunk.

I\'ve read quite a bit about UK nuclear construction, 1 very overrun
project coming to fruition soon (for varying values of \"soon\") and
talk of allowing construction overruns to be passed onto the consumer
for future projects (no incentive to control overruns then). I
prefer the US approach, let them either succeed or fail on their own.
If nuclear can\'t compete, why subsidize it? It\'s not a nascent
industry, just a money sink.
It is low carbon electricity if you can make it work.

Hmmm... Yes, but that\'s the sticky wicket, innit? Can you tell I watch too much British TV? Doc Martin lately.


They have been paying large users to shutdown heavily energy
intensive production during winter months for a few years now. The
rot really set in when Centrica closed the gas storage buffer in
Yorkshire in 2017

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/20/uk-gas-storage-prices-rough-british-gas-centrica



That leaves UK electricity generation after the dash for gas incredibly
exposed to the spot market price for natural gas (now
extortionate).

So storage at night and usage during the day is needed, eh? How much
is the current bill for shutting plants? Maybe batteries would be
profitable? Or instead of paying them to shut down, maybe change the
billing to an increasing kWh rate with higher usage. In my home
There is a pumped storage plant in Wales - one of the biggest in the
world but it is still miniscule compared to total UK power usage.

It doesn\'t have to compare to the total generation or usage, just the amount you are saving by shutting down factories. Do you not understand what I\'m saying? If you don\'t have enough, you need to build more. If you can add storage at a cost that is less than paying people to shut down, that saves money. Isn\'t that a very simple concept?


Australia has a battery farm somewhere that buffers peak load and is
profitable. The only one I know of in the UK is a toy near Oxford.

https://www.energy-storage.news/huge-achievement-as-50mw-battery-system-is-first-to-export-to-uk-grid-from-tertiary-connection/

The one in Australia has worked very well and I believe it was enlarged. I think other companies have also built them, but it\'s been a while, I maybe confusing this with other countries or even other continents.


county the power company gave an aluminum refinery a break on
electric prices (it\'s done by electrolysis, so some electron per atom
of aluminum). Some years later the company was looking at a rate
hike when the power company ended their price break. The company
left for Canada I believe, much better energy costs there. I say
UK has chloralkaline and aluminium (not sure if it is still there) as
the consumers of last resort. The former can absorb vast amounts of
power and isn\'t too upset if they get none at all. Makes them very
favourable as a load balancing tool for the national grid. I think they
get exceptionally good rates for accepting a very intermittent supply.

We used to have a steel industry but there is almost nothing left.
good riddance. They used to emit fluorine which would kill dairy
cows when they ate the grass.
Shouldn\'t they have been scrubbing their exhaust gasses through lime?
CaF2 is about the most insoluble thing known.

We have an expression the US, \"stuff happens\".

--

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
T

Tom Del Rosso

Guest
John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\"
fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

It\'s much worse on a long mountain uphill in a blizzard. You can\'t
even afford to run the heater.

It doesn\'t matter because you won\'t have any type of car when they
finally ban ICE with no intention of building the 200GW of
generator capacity needed to replace them with EV\'s. Hopefully
they\'ll establish a bus route up that mountain.

Once the power grids start to collapse, and people can\'t charge
their Teslas or heat their homes in the winter (which is happening
already) there will be an anti-renewable political reaction.

Of course, experts tell us we\'ll all be dead in nine years.

I had to reming some folks that were excited about electric only
homes that have no gas (some sort of commiefornia and NYC movement)
that their electric probably comes from gas and and mayber 18% coal,
but with needing least 20% more than they\'d need for on-site heating
need due to transmission losses.

It was crickets after that.


Resistive electric heating would be terrible. A heat pump is better.

Thermodynamically, a 1000c or whatever gas flame is inefficiently
coupled to heat house air to 25c. An ideal steam generator and an
ideal heat pump would be far more efficient use of gas.

I don\'t know about the real life numbers.

Instead of solar panels, we could have gas fired steam engines, where
the discharge heat warms our domestic air and hot water, and we get
free electricity from the otherwise wasted delta-t. That works when
the sun is down.

I considered adding a heat exchanger from our heater flue gas to the
water heater inlet, but the payoff is small for the effort. In our
climate, we don\'t run the heater a lot.

The reason you see steam rising from manholes, and sometimes cracks in
the sidewalk, in Manhattan, is the island\'s central steam heat.
Manhattan uses so much electricity that it needs several power plants
around the perimeter of the island, which used to be oil fired but I
think they\'re all gas now. The steam exits the turbines and is piped
through the streets to heat buildings, clean dishes in retaurants, and I
hear cheese makers use it somehow. I have no idea what they bill for it.

--
Defund the Thought Police
 
A

Anthony William Sloman

Guest
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 9:17:38 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\" <fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

<snip>

> >> Once the power grids start to collapse, and people can\'t charge their Teslas or heat their homes in the winter (which is happening already) there will be an anti-renewable political reaction.

There might be an anti-in competence political reaction. There\'s no reason why renewable resources couldn\'t be exploited to generate all the power that he grid might be expected to need. You might need a fairly extensive grid with a lot of grid storage (batteries, pumped hydro and the like) to cope with the intermittent nature of most renewable resources

> >> Of course, experts tell us we\'ll all be dead in nine years.

They don\'t, unless he means the kind of \"expert\" invented by climate change denial propagandists.

I had to remind some folks that were excited about electric only homes that
have no gas (some sort of commiefornia and NYC movement) that their
electric probably comes from gas and and maybe 18% coal, but with needing
least 20% more than they\'d need for on-site heating need due to transmission
losses.

That is currently true, to some extent. It\'s unlike to remain true. Recently South Australia ran for a week on renewable sources only - which is to say that renewable source supplied about 104% of the electricity used. Some of it got exported to adjacent states, and some of the time power was imported from place that generated it by burning gas. South Australia famously bought a Tesla grid battery a few years ago

https://hornsdalepowerreserve.com.au/

and they have bought another one since then.

They are also buying a grid-scale vanadium flow battery (which ought to be a better technology, but isn\'t yet produced in volume - unlike Tesla\'s car batteries).

https://arena.gov.au/news/first-grid-scale-flow-battery-to-be-built-in-south-australia/

> >It was crickets after that.

They knew that they were being lectured at by an ignorant halfwit?

Resistive electric heating would be terrible. A heat pump is better.

Thermodynamically, a 1000c or whatever gas flame is inefficiently
coupled to heat house air to 25c. An ideal steam generator and an
ideal heat pump would be far more efficient use of gas.

I don\'t know about the real life numbers.

Instead of solar panels, we could have gas fired steam engines, where
the discharge heat warms our domestic air and hot water, and we get
free electricity from the otherwise wasted delta-t. That works when
the sun is down.

It\'s called district heating, and is popular in Europe. It only works for the area close to the power station. In Nijmegen they coupled the garbage incinerator into that network.

I considered adding a heat exchanger from our heater flue gas to the
water heater inlet, but the payoff is small for the effort. In our
climate, we don\'t run the heater a lot.

Our central heating system in the Netherlands was gas-fired and produced both our hot water and the hot water that got circulated through our central heating radiators. The gas-fired boiler had a remarkably efficient heat exchange to get the heat from the gas it burned into the hot water that got circulated.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
R

Rick C

Guest
On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 6:47:21 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:
On 21/01/2022 05:40, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 3:09:12 PM UTC-5, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
torsdag den 20. januar 2022 kl. 19.38.44 UTC+1 skrev John Larkin:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\"
fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

It\'s much worse on a long mountain uphill in a blizzard. You can\'t
even afford to run the heater.

It doesn\'t matter because you won\'t have any type of car when they
finally ban ICE with no intention of building the 200GW of generator
capacity needed to replace them with EV\'s. Hopefully they\'ll establish a
bus route up that mountain.
Once the power grids start to collapse, and people can\'t charge their
Teslas or heat their homes in the winter (which is happening already)
there will be an anti-renewable political reaction.
kinda started already, on one hand people complaint politician don\'t take
global warming serious and are not ambitious enough pushing for green energy
and at the same time people complain that the politicians don\'t reduce the tax
on energy now that energy has had a large increase in price

Probably not the same people. What energy prices have increased?
Natural gas prices have gone through the roof!
Nearly an order of magnitude higher prices on the spot market.
That is what is driving all the UK energy box shifters into bankruptcy.
Seems to me pretty much all fuels and energies have been stable for some time now, no? Maybe that\'s just the US?
This graph from a US source says otherwise:

https://www.eia.gov/naturalgas/weekly/

I guess you are not familiar with pricing. \"Spot\" prices are always the highest prices you can find. If you look at electrical prices you will find the utilities pay *huge* prices at peak times. This means nothing on my bill because it is already factored into the price of electricity. I think you don\'t pay spot market prices either. Your claim about a ten fold increase in spot market prices means nothing other than what is reflected in your energy rates. You know better, but you do tend to be a Henny Penny alarmist at times.


Natural gas prices have spiked this winter at between 7-10x what they
were earlier last year and show every sign of going higher as users
compete for the relatively small amounts available to buy for import.

I guess this is another way the UK is a third world country, not able to foresee their future and manage their way around problems. I thought Brittan had a tonne of wells in the North Sea pumping natural gas through the island? I guess the North sea isn\'t big enough.


It could get a hell of a lot worse if Russia invades Ukraine and the
West imposes trade sanctions. Then in a tit-for-tat measure Russia cuts
off supply to the European gas pipeline(s). Mid-winter is not a good
time to be without gas. So far the price is just incredibly high.

Ah, yes. The spot market responds severely to such issues. Temporary though until the issues are resolved.


So high in fact that some major UK industries shut down production
completely which then caused a nationwide shortage of CO2. They had to
be bribed by the government to restart fertiliser production and have
been charging a massive premium off their customers ever since.

https://www.ft.com/content/991db1b7-ab0e-49fb-999c-3bf5bef2a93a

Can\'t get past the pay wall. But I think this is a joke, right? CO2 production???

The very idea of a government \"bribing\" a company to produce material, when they can gouge on price, is insane. What sort of asylum is the UK again? Try that over here and we can use a law to require a company to operate. Why is there only one company? Why can\'t CO2 be imported? How about getting it from the air? It\'s presently 400 ppm and rising.


UK electricity production would fail within a week under that scenario.
Most other European countries have larger natural gas buffer stocks.
(a month or more)

I think it is time for everyone to leave the UK and have the last person turn out the lights.

--

Rick C.

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