Driving Too Slow...

R

Rick C

Guest
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 9:58:49 AM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 4:48:46 AM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 20/01/22 11:28, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 3:57:27 AM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 20/01/22 02:07, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 5:06:26 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:

The *big* problem in the UK is that there are plenty of non working
chargers shown as working on the various apps! Many tales of woe even in
the south where they are relatively plentiful. Up north you are stuffed.

The supercharging hubs they have built are unable to get supply so are
nothing more than useless boondoggles. This one near me is useless:

https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/19839979.yorks-flagship-electric-vehicle-charging-hub-still-not-open/

It\'s a joke. Opening was cancelled yet again. No electricity!
(which is a bit of a serious problem for a charging station)

The article talks about \"legal agreements\" rather than actual access to the
grid. You make it sound as if they simply don\'t have a grid for them to
connect to. Do you have more details on just what the issue is?
I don\'t have knowledge of this particular case, but \"legal agreement\"
could mean anything. A couple of options are:
- insufficient local capacity in the network to charge 30 cars
at full rate
- arguments about who pays for a network upgrade to allow that
- rights of way problems for upgrading
- etc

Ok, but you are just making this up as you go. No basis for any of it.

No more than you do.

At least _I_ clearly delineate the limits of my knowledge of
the specific facts.
Except you didn\'t. You talked about \"tariffs\" and other nonsense which you simply made up.

Stop the BS now!

Sorry, I meant Martin Brown mentioned \"tariffs\", but you also created pure speculation which is nonsense.
--

Rick C.

+--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
R

Rick C

Guest
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 5:38:03 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 6:41:48 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 1:01:18 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2022-01-21, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\" <fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
snip
You didn\'t factor in the transportation cost of the electricity. The losses are not large, but it starts eating into the CoP margin. The real issue is the cost of the installation. A heat pump requires backup heat for when it\'s not very effective such as low temps but also for removing ice from the coils. To do that they run it in air conditioner mode and run the backup heat to keep the house from cooling off.
Actually, they don\'t or at least they don\'t have to. In Australia most air-conditioning systems as touted as \"reverse cycle systems\". You can run the compressor in reverse so it while it can cool the house in summer, it can also be used to warm it in winter. This doesn\'t require any mechanical reconfiguration (or at least nothing that asks me to do more than select the right option on the controller). If you want to de-ice the coils you reverse-cycle it briefly. Cools the house a little in the process, but not for long enough for you to notice.

You must keep the heat low in Australia then. Deicing does very much blow cool air through the home unless you aren\'t using forced air heat. No one likes cold air from their heating system, so they use auxiliary heat (usually straight resistance heating) to prevent this. I suppose Australians are tougher material or just can\'t afford the heating coils.

--

Rick C.

+-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
S

server

Guest
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:48:30 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\"
<fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\"
fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

It\'s much worse on a long mountain uphill in a blizzard. You can\'t
even afford to run the heater.

It doesn\'t matter because you won\'t have any type of car when they
finally ban ICE with no intention of building the 200GW of
generator capacity needed to replace them with EV\'s. Hopefully
they\'ll establish a bus route up that mountain.

Once the power grids start to collapse, and people can\'t charge
their Teslas or heat their homes in the winter (which is happening
already) there will be an anti-renewable political reaction.

Of course, experts tell us we\'ll all be dead in nine years.

I had to reming some folks that were excited about electric only
homes that have no gas (some sort of commiefornia and NYC movement)
that their electric probably comes from gas and and mayber 18% coal,
but with needing least 20% more than they\'d need for on-site heating
need due to transmission losses.

It was crickets after that.


Resistive electric heating would be terrible. A heat pump is better.

Thermodynamically, a 1000c or whatever gas flame is inefficiently
coupled to heat house air to 25c. An ideal steam generator and an
ideal heat pump would be far more efficient use of gas.

I don\'t know about the real life numbers.

Instead of solar panels, we could have gas fired steam engines, where
the discharge heat warms our domestic air and hot water, and we get
free electricity from the otherwise wasted delta-t. That works when
the sun is down.

I considered adding a heat exchanger from our heater flue gas to the
water heater inlet, but the payoff is small for the effort. In our
climate, we don\'t run the heater a lot.

The reason you see steam rising from manholes, and sometimes cracks in
the sidewalk, in Manhattan, is the island\'s central steam heat.
Manhattan uses so much electricity that it needs several power plants
around the perimeter of the island, which used to be oil fired but I
think they\'re all gas now. The steam exits the turbines and is piped
through the streets to heat buildings, clean dishes in retaurants, and I
hear cheese makers use it somehow. I have no idea what they bill for it.

I did some work on Moscow\'s hot water system, measuring the thermal
energy in/out of a big site.

Moscow was interesting. Most apartment buildings were overheated and
unmeasured. When it got too hot, people would open their windows.



--

I yam what I yam - Popeye
 
T

Tom Gardner

Guest
On 22/01/22 15:01, Rick C wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 9:58:49 AM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 4:48:46 AM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 20/01/22 11:28, Rick C wrote:
On Thursday, January 20, 2022 at 3:57:27 AM UTC-5, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 20/01/22 02:07, Rick C wrote:
On Wednesday, January 19, 2022 at 5:06:26 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown wrote:

The *big* problem in the UK is that there are plenty of non working
chargers shown as working on the various apps! Many tales of woe even in
the south where they are relatively plentiful. Up north you are stuffed.

The supercharging hubs they have built are unable to get supply so are
nothing more than useless boondoggles. This one near me is useless:

https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/19839979.yorks-flagship-electric-vehicle-charging-hub-still-not-open/

It\'s a joke. Opening was cancelled yet again. No electricity!
(which is a bit of a serious problem for a charging station)

The article talks about \"legal agreements\" rather than actual access to the
grid. You make it sound as if they simply don\'t have a grid for them to
connect to. Do you have more details on just what the issue is?
I don\'t have knowledge of this particular case, but \"legal agreement\"
could mean anything. A couple of options are:
- insufficient local capacity in the network to charge 30 cars
at full rate
- arguments about who pays for a network upgrade to allow that
- rights of way problems for upgrading
- etc

Ok, but you are just making this up as you go. No basis for any of it.

No more than you do.

At least _I_ clearly delineate the limits of my knowledge of
the specific facts.
Except you didn\'t. You talked about \"tariffs\" and other nonsense which you simply made up.

Stop the BS now!

Sorry, I meant Martin Brown mentioned \"tariffs\", but you also created pure speculation which is nonsense.

And hence my statements are correct, and you read faster than you
are able to comprehend.
 
D

David Brown

Guest
On 22/01/2022 15:57, Rick C wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 4:36:03 AM UTC-5, Tom Gardner
wrote:
On 22/01/22 02:30, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 6:47:21 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown
wrote:
So high in fact that some major UK industries shut down
production completely which then caused a nationwide shortage
of CO2. They had to be bribed by the government to restart
fertiliser production and have been charging a massive premium
off their customers ever since.

https://www.ft.com/content/991db1b7-ab0e-49fb-999c-3bf5bef2a93a


Can\'t get past the pay wall. But I think this is a joke, right?
CO2 production???
No joke. Widely publicised. Wide gaps on supermarket shelves where
carbonated drinks should be displayed.

I don\'t think it quite reached the stage of screwing meat
production where CO2 is used to stun/kill the animals. Brexit and
\"reclaiming control of our borders was sufficient for that.

Why would it ever have any impact on anything? Is the UK incapable
of changing gears and buying CO2 from other countries? Maybe you
need a channel pipeline to transport it? LOL

The clown in charge in the UK has disconnected the country from the rest
of the world. Yes, it should surely be possible to import CO₂ from
other countries. But it would take them months to figure out the red
tape involved and who should pay which tolls, tariffs or taxes. No
European drivers will drive their trucks into the UK, and the UK doesn\'t
have enough drivers to spare. And European suppliers would mostly be
quite happy to let the UK suffer after the shitty way the UK government
has treated the rest of Europe.

The current government in the UK couldn\'t organise a piss-up in a
brewery, and seem determined to screw up the country as much as possible
while partying against the rules.
 
T

Tom Gardner

Guest
On 22/01/22 16:07, David Brown wrote:
The current government in the UK couldn\'t organise a piss-up in a
brewery, and seem determined to screw up the country as much as possible
while partying against the rules.

They can organise a piss up in Downing St, as their illegal
parties demonstrate :(
 
R

Rick C

Guest
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 11:07:14 AM UTC-5, David Brown wrote:
On 22/01/2022 15:57, Rick C wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 4:36:03 AM UTC-5, Tom Gardner
wrote:
On 22/01/22 02:30, Rick C wrote:
On Friday, January 21, 2022 at 6:47:21 AM UTC-5, Martin Brown
wrote:
So high in fact that some major UK industries shut down
production completely which then caused a nationwide shortage
of CO2. They had to be bribed by the government to restart
fertiliser production and have been charging a massive premium
off their customers ever since.

https://www.ft.com/content/991db1b7-ab0e-49fb-999c-3bf5bef2a93a


Can\'t get past the pay wall. But I think this is a joke, right?
CO2 production???
No joke. Widely publicised. Wide gaps on supermarket shelves where
carbonated drinks should be displayed.

I don\'t think it quite reached the stage of screwing meat
production where CO2 is used to stun/kill the animals. Brexit and
\"reclaiming control of our borders was sufficient for that.

Why would it ever have any impact on anything? Is the UK incapable
of changing gears and buying CO2 from other countries? Maybe you
need a channel pipeline to transport it? LOL

The clown in charge in the UK has disconnected the country from the rest
of the world. Yes, it should surely be possible to import CO₂ from
other countries. But it would take them months to figure out the red
tape involved and who should pay which tolls, tariffs or taxes. No
European drivers will drive their trucks into the UK, and the UK doesn\'t
have enough drivers to spare. And European suppliers would mostly be
quite happy to let the UK suffer after the shitty way the UK government
has treated the rest of Europe.

The current government in the UK couldn\'t organise a piss-up in a
brewery, and seem determined to screw up the country as much as possible
while partying against the rules.

Maybe we should lend them Trmp? Would that be an improvement? We certainly have no use for him, spare parts for an obsolete machine, eh?

--

Rick C.

+-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
A

Anthony William Sloman

Guest
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 2:06:19 AM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 5:38:03 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 6:41:48 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail..com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 1:01:18 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2022-01-21, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\" <fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
snip
You didn\'t factor in the transportation cost of the electricity. The losses are not large, but it starts eating into the CoP margin. The real issue is the cost of the installation. A heat pump requires backup heat for when it\'s not very effective such as low temps but also for removing ice from the coils. To do that they run it in air conditioner mode and run the backup heat to keep the house from cooling off.
Actually, they don\'t or at least they don\'t have to. In Australia most air-conditioning systems as touted as \"reverse cycle systems\". You can run the compressor in reverse so it while it can cool the house in summer, it can also be used to warm it in winter. This doesn\'t require any mechanical reconfiguration (or at least nothing that asks me to do more than select the right option on the controller). If you want to de-ice the coils you reverse-cycle it briefly. Cools the house a little in the process, but not for long enough for you to notice.

You must keep the heat low in Australia then. Deicing does very much blow cool air through the home unless you aren\'t using forced air heat.

You don\'t have to do it for long - just long enough to turn the bulky frost into water. If it then freezes to clear ice it doesn\'t insulate the outside heat exchange to any perceptible extent.

> No one likes cold air from their heating system,

They don\'t get enough of it to notice.

> so they use auxiliary heat (usually straight resistance heating) to prevent this. I suppose Australians are tougher material or just can\'t afford the heating coils.

I was making the point that heat pumps can work both ways. There are bits of Australia that get below freezing in winter, mostly skiing resorts, but I\'ve not lived there.

It has snowed three times in the town where I grew up - once in the eighteen years that I lived there and twice since then, and I did get to hear about it (though I was living in England when the second snow fall happened - an Australian post-doc I played hockey with told me about it).

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
R

Rick C

Guest
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 8:48:26 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 2:06:19 AM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 5:38:03 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 6:41:48 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 1:01:18 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2022-01-21, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <pres....@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\" <fizzbin....@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
snip
You didn\'t factor in the transportation cost of the electricity. The losses are not large, but it starts eating into the CoP margin. The real issue is the cost of the installation. A heat pump requires backup heat for when it\'s not very effective such as low temps but also for removing ice from the coils. To do that they run it in air conditioner mode and run the backup heat to keep the house from cooling off.
Actually, they don\'t or at least they don\'t have to. In Australia most air-conditioning systems as touted as \"reverse cycle systems\". You can run the compressor in reverse so it while it can cool the house in summer, it can also be used to warm it in winter. This doesn\'t require any mechanical reconfiguration (or at least nothing that asks me to do more than select the right option on the controller). If you want to de-ice the coils you reverse-cycle it briefly. Cools the house a little in the process, but not for long enough for you to notice.

You must keep the heat low in Australia then. Deicing does very much blow cool air through the home unless you aren\'t using forced air heat.
You don\'t have to do it for long - just long enough to turn the bulky frost into water. If it then freezes to clear ice it doesn\'t insulate the outside heat exchange to any perceptible extent.

You are being silly now. You don\'t remove the ice in a few seconds. It takes a bit of time. Even so, no one likes having cold air blown on them in the winter time. You are talking as if this has to do with bringing down the temperature of the house, it doesn\'t. It has to do with the furnace blowing cold air rather than hot air. Cold drafts are something you try to prevent in cold weather.


No one likes cold air from their heating system,
They don\'t get enough of it to notice.

In this country that is not the case. Maybe the temps never get cold enough downunder for this to matter. The original objection to heat pumps when they first started to be used much in the 70s or 80s was the fact that they don\'t blow warm air. An oil burner blows warm air that feels good. The heat pumps produced air that was barely above room temperature and felt cold because it was below body temp. They eventually reduced that so the air from the vents actually feel warm now. But when it first comes on it blows cold air until the system warms up. Better heat systems use a two speed fan that blows slowly at first to minimize this as well as continuing to blow after the pump is turned off to remove residual coil heat... without blowing air that feels cold.

Suggesting that no one cares about the cold air that is *actually* cold, below room temperature cold is pure BS. Why else would they go to so much trouble to prevent blowing room temperature air from a heat pump much less colder air?


so they use auxiliary heat (usually straight resistance heating) to prevent this. I suppose Australians are tougher material or just can\'t afford the heating coils.
I was making the point that heat pumps can work both ways. There are bits of Australia that get below freezing in winter, mostly skiing resorts, but I\'ve not lived there.

Doesn\'t matter if the outside temps are below freezing. The heat pump coils have to be well colder than the outside air to work. The worst case is in a light rain, just above freezing. You can get a large build up of ice before the defrost cycle kicks in which takes time to remove.


> It has snowed three times in the town where I grew up - once in the eighteen years that I lived there and twice since then, and I did get to hear about it (though I was living in England when the second snow fall happened - an Australian post-doc I played hockey with told me about it).

I\'m glad you got to see snow. It\'s nice as long as you can stay home and not drive to work. Ice is much worse, but they usually close businesses when that happens. My CM in NC was closed Friday because of it.

--

Rick C.

++-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
A

Anthony William Sloman

Guest
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 2:39:38 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 8:48:26 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 2:06:19 AM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 5:38:03 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 6:41:48 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 1:01:18 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2022-01-21, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\" <fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
snip
You didn\'t factor in the transportation cost of the electricity. The losses are not large, but it starts eating into the CoP margin. The real issue is the cost of the installation. A heat pump requires backup heat for when it\'s not very effective such as low temps but also for removing ice from the coils. To do that they run it in air conditioner mode and run the backup heat to keep the house from cooling off.
Actually, they don\'t or at least they don\'t have to. In Australia most air-conditioning systems as touted as \"reverse cycle systems\". You can run the compressor in reverse so it while it can cool the house in summer, it can also be used to warm it in winter. This doesn\'t require any mechanical reconfiguration (or at least nothing that asks me to do more than select the right option on the controller). If you want to de-ice the coils you reverse-cycle it briefly. Cools the house a little in the process, but not for long enough for you to notice.

You must keep the heat low in Australia then. Deicing does very much blow cool air through the home unless you aren\'t using forced air heat.
You don\'t have to do it for long - just long enough to turn the bulky frost into water. If it then freezes to clear ice it doesn\'t insulate the outside heat exchange to any perceptible extent.
You are being silly now. You don\'t remove the ice in a few seconds.

Clear ice isn\'t a problem - it\'s not a good insulator compared with the static boundary layer of air just above it. Fluffy frost is, because it reduces air circulation. There\'s not much water involved, so it doesn\'t take long to melt it down to liquid water which can run off.

> It takes a bit of time. Even so, no one likes having cold air blown on them in the winter time. You are talking as if this has to do with bringing down the temperature of the house, it doesn\'t. It has to do with the furnace blowing cold air rather than hot air.

Heat pumps aren\'t furnaces. You\'ve got to pump the gaseous working fluid out to the heat exchanger in the indoor room where it can condense and release heat into the room. If you don\'t want to use one of the room heat exchangers to boil off the refrigerant that has heated up the outside radiator, use one in a more isolated indoor space which you can let cool off a bit without worrying anybody, or maybe even a electric heater. Wittering on as if heat pumps work the same way as furnaces is a bit silly.

Cold drafts are something you try to prevent in cold weather.

No one likes cold air from their heating system,

They don\'t get enough of it to notice.
In this country that is not the case. Maybe the temps never get cold enough downunder for this to matter. The original objection to heat pumps when they first started to be used much in the 70s or 80s was the fact that they don\'t blow warm air. An oil burner blows warm air that feels good. The heat pumps produced air that was barely above room temperature and felt cold because it was below body temp.

Wanting a heat pump to work the same way as a furnace is pretty silly.

> They eventually reduced that so the air from the vents actually feels warm now. But when it first comes on it blows cold air until the system warms up.

Why would it need to blow air before the surface it was blowing the air over was condensing enough refrigerant to emit heat? That sounds like incompetent design (or somebody cheap-skating on temperature sensors).

> Better heat systems use a two speed fan that blows slowly at first to minimize this as well as continuing to blow after the pump is turned off to remove residual coil heat... without blowing air that feels cold.

Even better systems would have an infinitely variable fan speed. You do seem to be talking about the limitations of cheap/incompetent design rather than anything fundamental

> Suggesting that no one cares about the cold air that is *actually* cold, below room temperature cold is pure BS. Why else would they go to so much trouble to prevent blowing room temperature air from a heat pump much less colder air?

Because they hadn\'t thought about what they were doing ?

so they use auxiliary heat (usually straight resistance heating) to prevent this. I suppose Australians are tougher material or just can\'t afford the heating coils.

I was making the point that heat pumps can work both ways. There are bits of Australia that get below freezing in winter, mostly skiing resorts, but I\'ve not lived there.

Doesn\'t matter if the outside temps are below freezing. The heat pump coils have to be well colder than the outside air to work. The worst case is in a light rain, just above freezing. You can get a large build up of ice before the defrost cycle kicks in which takes time to remove.

You might, if your system had been designed by an idiot.

It has snowed three times in the town where I grew up - once in the eighteen years that I lived there and twice since then, and I did get to hear about it (though I was living in England when the second snow fall happened - an Australian post-doc I played hockey with told me about it).

I\'m glad you got to see snow. It\'s nice as long as you can stay home and not drive to work.

I lived in the Netherlands for nineteen years. We typically got a snow cover for a week or so at least once every winter. I lived in the UK for 22 years, where snow falls are rarer, and more disruptive when they do happen

> Ice is much worse, but they usually close businesses when that happens. My CM in NC was closed Friday because of it.

Snow cover has nasty habit of turning into sheet ice after people have driven across it. Main roads tend to be kept ice free, but it takes work and specialised equipment.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
C

Cydrome Leader

Guest
Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 1:34:12 PM UTC+11, Cydrome Leader wrote:
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\" <fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

snip
\'
Resistive electric heating would be terrible. A heat pump is better.
that\'s what the green retards all want. Resistive heating, or the fantasy of
heat pumps working anywhere in the US.

The retard here is Cydrome Leader, who seems to think that here is only one kind of heat pump.

With the right working fluid, and the right design, heat pumps can work
anywhere or at least anywhere where anybody lives.

Dear Dumbass, go ahead and name two brands of heatpumps that provide at least
100kBTU of heating capacity with outdoor temps of negative F. Be sure to hand
over the name of the authorized installers within say 25 miles of or zip code
60601. Thanks. I\'ll give them a call and get some quotes.


If they are working a across a large temperature difference, you don\'t as many watts of heat per watt of electrical input as you do with a smaller difference, and they aren\'t as attractive, but they still work.

Thermodynamically, a 1000c or whatever gas flame is inefficiently
coupled to heat house air to 25c. An ideal steam generator and an
ideal heat pump would be far more efficient use of gas.

It\'s perfectly coupled to transfer massive amounts of heat. You sure won\'t
be running any perfect steam boiler off 220F degree \"flames\".
I don\'t know about the real life numbers.

Instead of solar panels, we could have gas fired steam engines, where
the discharge heat warms our domestic air and hot water, and we get
free electricity from the otherwise wasted delta-t. That works when
the sun is down.

I hope you do realize modern gas fired furnaces are something like 95%
efficient. There is no \"waste\" heat to gather, and if you do gather it\'s
going to be of little use. The exhaust is so cool they run it though PVC
pipes which are too flimsy to even handle drinking water.

I considered adding a heat exchanger from our heater flue gas to the
water heater inlet, but the payoff is small for the effort. In our
climate, we don\'t run the heater a lot.

Bad idea, unless you want corrosion and CO in your living space.

The heat exchanger won\'t leak carbon monoxide. If you condense out water onto the flue gas side of you heat exchanger you do have to pick construction materials that won\'t corrode. With Cydrome Leader\'s design skills that might not happen, but it should,

Granted this site is suspiciously professional and vague, but it\'s from the
real emerson electric, so trusty as far as mega conglomerates with little
interest in consumers goes.

https://www.ac-heatingconnect.com/homeowners/hvac-midwest-whats-best-system-home/

so is why we don\'t use heatpumps in the midwest. They\'re useless is the
short story. Nothing produces massive amounts of cheap heat like burning gas
in a furnace. Even if you could partially augment your heating with a
heatpump, I doubt it would be cheaper than gas. Plus, furnaces are cheaper
to replace than central air systems, and a heatpump is basically central
air with some reversing valves to fail. Yeah, there are minisplit systems,
but those are janky to start with, even as a pure AC unit.

Or to put it more briefly, Cydrome Leader doesnm\'t know what he is talking about.

Start with my challenge #1 and we\'ll work from there.

If you have the bucks, geothermal heatpumps are fine. I\'ve seen a completely
decked out system of the sort, but it was built by retired engineer, clearly
as a \"project\" more than anything else. The up front costs must have been
immense with something like a mile of buried tubing outside, somewhere.

It\'s 22F outside here right now, so even if I had a heatpump, it would be
frozen over outside and the gas furnace would still be needed.

Why wound it be \"frozen over\"? If it\'s cooler than the outside air it might
pick up a layer of frost, but reversing the heat flow briefly to melt the
frost for long enough for it to drip off is trivial to implement. As usual
Cydrome Leader doesn\'t know enough about what he is talking about.

I\'d wager this old clown can\'t even describe the refrigeration cycle without
help from ask jeeves or a trip to the library.

They just don\'t make any sense here.

If you haven\'t got much sense to start with

Your geography and energy costs will vary. Energy here is cheap. We have all the electric and all the pipelines.

But not all that many super-insulated houses. Cydrome Leader isn\'t the only
local who hasn\'t got much sense.

Cleary the mold in your super-insulated house has rotted your brain.
 
C

Cydrome Leader

Guest
Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 6:41:48 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 1:01:18 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2022-01-21, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\" <fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

snip

You didn\'t factor in the transportation cost of the electricity. The losses are not large, but it starts eating into the CoP margin. The real issue is the cost of the installation. A heat pump requires backup heat for when it\'s not very effective such as low temps but also for removing ice from the coils. To do that they run it in air conditioner mode and run the backup heat to keep the house from cooling off.

Actually, they don\'t or at least they don\'t have to. In Australia most
air-conditioning systems as touted as \"reverse cycle systems\". You can run
the compressor in reverse so it while it can cool the house in summer, it

Oh really? How do they run the compressor in reverse? flip the leads? Let\'s
all take notes as the guru of heat pumps enlightens us once again.
 
C

Cydrome Leader

Guest
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:48:30 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\"
fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\"
fizzbintuesday@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

It\'s much worse on a long mountain uphill in a blizzard. You can\'t
even afford to run the heater.

It doesn\'t matter because you won\'t have any type of car when they
finally ban ICE with no intention of building the 200GW of
generator capacity needed to replace them with EV\'s. Hopefully
they\'ll establish a bus route up that mountain.

Once the power grids start to collapse, and people can\'t charge
their Teslas or heat their homes in the winter (which is happening
already) there will be an anti-renewable political reaction.

Of course, experts tell us we\'ll all be dead in nine years.

I had to reming some folks that were excited about electric only
homes that have no gas (some sort of commiefornia and NYC movement)
that their electric probably comes from gas and and mayber 18% coal,
but with needing least 20% more than they\'d need for on-site heating
need due to transmission losses.

It was crickets after that.


Resistive electric heating would be terrible. A heat pump is better.

Thermodynamically, a 1000c or whatever gas flame is inefficiently
coupled to heat house air to 25c. An ideal steam generator and an
ideal heat pump would be far more efficient use of gas.

I don\'t know about the real life numbers.

Instead of solar panels, we could have gas fired steam engines, where
the discharge heat warms our domestic air and hot water, and we get
free electricity from the otherwise wasted delta-t. That works when
the sun is down.

I considered adding a heat exchanger from our heater flue gas to the
water heater inlet, but the payoff is small for the effort. In our
climate, we don\'t run the heater a lot.

The reason you see steam rising from manholes, and sometimes cracks in
the sidewalk, in Manhattan, is the island\'s central steam heat.
Manhattan uses so much electricity that it needs several power plants
around the perimeter of the island, which used to be oil fired but I
think they\'re all gas now. The steam exits the turbines and is piped
through the streets to heat buildings, clean dishes in retaurants, and I
hear cheese makers use it somehow. I have no idea what they bill for it.

I did some work on Moscow\'s hot water system, measuring the thermal
energy in/out of a big site.

Moscow was interesting. Most apartment buildings were overheated and
unmeasured. When it got too hot, people would open their windows.

That\'s standard fare for any large steam heat setup- let everyone roast and
open the windows.

District heating is one this the commies have figured out. The mega heating
plants in large Polish cities are fascinating.

In Chicago there are still some interesting district heating and cooling
plants in downtown. The large schools and hospitals maintain their own and
some still do cogeneration as well. Once the operation is large enough there\'s
no reason to not extract ALL the energy in any form you can.

The difference between us and NYC is we have qualified engineers and
maintenance people. The norm of steam blowing out of parking cones bolted to
the streets in NYC is some third world nonsense only animals who can\'t figure
out how to use dumpsters tolerate or accept.
 
A

Anthony William Sloman

Guest
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 6:34:56 PM UTC+11, Cydrome Leader wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 19:48:30 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\"
fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\"
fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:

jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

It\'s much worse on a long mountain uphill in a blizzard. You can\'t
even afford to run the heater.

It doesn\'t matter because you won\'t have any type of car when they
finally ban ICE with no intention of building the 200GW of
generator capacity needed to replace them with EV\'s. Hopefully
they\'ll establish a bus route up that mountain.

Once the power grids start to collapse, and people can\'t charge
their Teslas or heat their homes in the winter (which is happening
already) there will be an anti-renewable political reaction.

Of course, experts tell us we\'ll all be dead in nine years.

I had to reming some folks that were excited about electric only
homes that have no gas (some sort of commiefornia and NYC movement)
that their electric probably comes from gas and and mayber 18% coal,
but with needing least 20% more than they\'d need for on-site heating
need due to transmission losses.

It was crickets after that.


Resistive electric heating would be terrible. A heat pump is better.

Thermodynamically, a 1000c or whatever gas flame is inefficiently
coupled to heat house air to 25c. An ideal steam generator and an
ideal heat pump would be far more efficient use of gas.

I don\'t know about the real life numbers.

Instead of solar panels, we could have gas fired steam engines, where
the discharge heat warms our domestic air and hot water, and we get
free electricity from the otherwise wasted delta-t. That works when
the sun is down.

I considered adding a heat exchanger from our heater flue gas to the
water heater inlet, but the payoff is small for the effort. In our
climate, we don\'t run the heater a lot.

The reason you see steam rising from manholes, and sometimes cracks in
the sidewalk, in Manhattan, is the island\'s central steam heat.
Manhattan uses so much electricity that it needs several power plants
around the perimeter of the island, which used to be oil fired but I
think they\'re all gas now. The steam exits the turbines and is piped
through the streets to heat buildings, clean dishes in retaurants, and I
hear cheese makers use it somehow. I have no idea what they bill for it..

I did some work on Moscow\'s hot water system, measuring the thermal
energy in/out of a big site.

Moscow was interesting. Most apartment buildings were overheated and
unmeasured. When it got too hot, people would open their windows.
That\'s standard fare for any large steam heat setup- let everyone roast and
open the windows.

It\'s a bit silly. Thermostatic radiator valves have been around since the 1980\'s at least - I had one in the mid-1980\'s from Honeywell that was electronic (battery operated) with an internal clock that could change the set point once or twice a day - so the bedroom was cool enough for sleeping at night, and not too chilly to get dressed in in the morning.

District heating is one this the commies have figured out. The mega heating
plants in large Polish cities are fascinating.

Not just the commies. The West Germans and the Dutch do it too

In Chicago there are still some interesting district heating and cooling
plants in downtown. The large schools and hospitals maintain their own and
some still do co-generation as well. Once the operation is large enough there\'s
no reason to not extract ALL the energy in any form you can.

The difference between us and NYC is we have qualified engineers and
maintenance people. The norm of steam blowing out of parking cones bolted to
the streets in NYC is some third world nonsense only animals who can\'t figure
out how to use dumpsters tolerate or accept.

There\'s probably not a shortage of qualified engineers or maintenance people in New York either. There may be a shortage of politicians willing to spend tax money on hiring them - the US isn\'t short of third world politicians, and Cydrome Leader sounds just like an example of the breed.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
A

Anthony William Sloman

Guest
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 6:20:38 PM UTC+11, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 6:41:48 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail..com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 1:01:18 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2022-01-21, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\" <fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

snip

You didn\'t factor in the transportation cost of the electricity. The losses are not large, but it starts eating into the CoP margin. The real issue is the cost of the installation. A heat pump requires backup heat for when it\'s not very effective such as low temps but also for removing ice from the coils. To do that they run it in air conditioner mode and run the backup heat to keep the house from cooling off.

Actually, they don\'t or at least they don\'t have to. In Australia most
air-conditioning systems as touted as \"reverse cycle systems\". You can run
the compressor in reverse so it while it can cool the house in summer, it.

Oh really? How do they run the compressor in reverse? flip the leads? Let\'s
all take notes as the guru of heat pumps enlightens us once again.

There are all sort of options. Using a pair of valves to flip the intakes and outlets would work. If the compressor is being spun by a synchronous motor you could use electronics to make it spin in the opposite direction. I haven\'t dismanted my Mitsubishi reverse cycle air-conditioner to find out how they do it - it would invalidate my guarantee if I did, and I don\'t really need to know. Cydrome Leader does - he\'s advanced enough fatuous misconceptions to make it clear that he hasn\'t got a clue.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
R

Rick C

Guest
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 1:42:21 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 2:39:38 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 8:48:26 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 2:06:19 AM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail..com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 5:38:03 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 6:41:48 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 1:01:18 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2022-01-21, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\" <fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
snip
You didn\'t factor in the transportation cost of the electricity.. The losses are not large, but it starts eating into the CoP margin. The real issue is the cost of the installation. A heat pump requires backup heat for when it\'s not very effective such as low temps but also for removing ice from the coils. To do that they run it in air conditioner mode and run the backup heat to keep the house from cooling off.
Actually, they don\'t or at least they don\'t have to. In Australia most air-conditioning systems as touted as \"reverse cycle systems\". You can run the compressor in reverse so it while it can cool the house in summer, it can also be used to warm it in winter. This doesn\'t require any mechanical reconfiguration (or at least nothing that asks me to do more than select the right option on the controller). If you want to de-ice the coils you reverse-cycle it briefly. Cools the house a little in the process, but not for long enough for you to notice.

You must keep the heat low in Australia then. Deicing does very much blow cool air through the home unless you aren\'t using forced air heat.
You don\'t have to do it for long - just long enough to turn the bulky frost into water. If it then freezes to clear ice it doesn\'t insulate the outside heat exchange to any perceptible extent.
You are being silly now. You don\'t remove the ice in a few seconds.
Clear ice isn\'t a problem - it\'s not a good insulator compared with the static boundary layer of air just above it. Fluffy frost is, because it reduces air circulation. There\'s not much water involved, so it doesn\'t take long to melt it down to liquid water which can run off.
It takes a bit of time. Even so, no one likes having cold air blown on them in the winter time. You are talking as if this has to do with bringing down the temperature of the house, it doesn\'t. It has to do with the furnace blowing cold air rather than hot air.
Heat pumps aren\'t furnaces. You\'ve got to pump the gaseous working fluid out to the heat exchanger in the indoor room where it can condense and release heat into the room. If you don\'t want to use one of the room heat exchangers to boil off the refrigerant that has heated up the outside radiator, use one in a more isolated indoor space which you can let cool off a bit without worrying anybody, or maybe even a electric heater. Wittering on as if heat pumps work the same way as furnaces is a bit silly.

You need to look up the definition of \"furnace\". A heat pump is a furnace. Either way, you are being silly about this, digging in your heels rather than discussing the issue. The point is a heat pump system is going to use the same air space for drawing heat for defrosting as it heats. Anything else would be prohibitively expensive to run the ductwork or dampers or other silly notions. Maybe they do such things downunder, but not in the civilized world. You mention electric heater... yes, that is what I said they do, they run the auxiliary heat (often electric resistance heating) to prevent blowing cold air on the occupants. I\'m glad you finally understand and can now stop wittering on.


Cold drafts are something you try to prevent in cold weather.

No one likes cold air from their heating system,

They don\'t get enough of it to notice.
In this country that is not the case. Maybe the temps never get cold enough downunder for this to matter. The original objection to heat pumps when they first started to be used much in the 70s or 80s was the fact that they don\'t blow warm air. An oil burner blows warm air that feels good. The heat pumps produced air that was barely above room temperature and felt cold because it was below body temp.
Wanting a heat pump to work the same way as a furnace is pretty silly.

They eventually reduced that so the air from the vents actually feels warm now. But when it first comes on it blows cold air until the system warms up.

Why would it need to blow air before the surface it was blowing the air over was condensing enough refrigerant to emit heat? That sounds like incompetent design (or somebody cheap-skating on temperature sensors).

Because they try to meet price points, yes, being cheap because people buy on price, not obscure technical details. Besides we are talking about defrosting where the coils start cold and get colder.


Better heat systems use a two speed fan that blows slowly at first to minimize this as well as continuing to blow after the pump is turned off to remove residual coil heat... without blowing air that feels cold.
Even better systems would have an infinitely variable fan speed. You do seem to be talking about the limitations of cheap/incompetent design rather than anything fundamental

Lol! You actually don\'t know much about this do you? This is not one of your millikelvin devices. They actually have to sell these systems. I am talking about what is used in homes, not research experiments.


Suggesting that no one cares about the cold air that is *actually* cold, below room temperature cold is pure BS. Why else would they go to so much trouble to prevent blowing room temperature air from a heat pump much less colder air?
Because they hadn\'t thought about what they were doing ?
so they use auxiliary heat (usually straight resistance heating) to prevent this. I suppose Australians are tougher material or just can\'t afford the heating coils.

I was making the point that heat pumps can work both ways. There are bits of Australia that get below freezing in winter, mostly skiing resorts, but I\'ve not lived there.

Doesn\'t matter if the outside temps are below freezing. The heat pump coils have to be well colder than the outside air to work. The worst case is in a light rain, just above freezing. You can get a large build up of ice before the defrost cycle kicks in which takes time to remove.
You might, if your system had been designed by an idiot.

Ok, you have stopped talking about the issues and now are insulting anyone and everyone involved without addressing any of the technical issues.

Sometimes I wonder if this is about mental decline as you age. You do seem to have a regular pattern of discussing facts, followed by entrenchment and restating the same facts (rather than a better discussion of new facts others have pointed out), followed by insults. What is going on that you can\'t just discuss the issues rationally rather than getting defensive and lashing out?

--

Rick C.

++-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
++-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
A

Anthony William Sloman

Guest
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 10:54:13 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 1:42:21 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 2:39:38 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 8:48:26 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 2:06:19 AM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 5:38:03 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 6:41:48 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del....@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 1:01:18 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2022-01-21, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\" <fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
snip
You didn\'t factor in the transportation cost of the electricity. The losses are not large, but it starts eating into the CoP margin. The real issue is the cost of the installation. A heat pump requires backup heat for when it\'s not very effective such as low temps but also for removing ice from the coils. To do that they run it in air conditioner mode and run the backup heat to keep the house from cooling off.
Actually, they don\'t or at least they don\'t have to. In Australia most air-conditioning systems as touted as \"reverse cycle systems\". You can run the compressor in reverse so it while it can cool the house in summer, it can also be used to warm it in winter. This doesn\'t require any mechanical reconfiguration (or at least nothing that asks me to do more than select the right option on the controller). If you want to de-ice the coils you reverse-cycle it briefly. Cools the house a little in the process, but not for long enough for you to notice.

You must keep the heat low in Australia then. Deicing does very much blow cool air through the home unless you aren\'t using forced air heat.
You don\'t have to do it for long - just long enough to turn the bulky frost into water. If it then freezes to clear ice it doesn\'t insulate the outside heat exchange to any perceptible extent.
You are being silly now. You don\'t remove the ice in a few seconds.

Clear ice isn\'t a problem - it\'s not a good insulator compared with the static boundary layer of air just above it. Fluffy frost is, because it reduces air circulation. There\'s not much water involved, so it doesn\'t take long to melt it down to liquid water which can run off.

It takes a bit of time. Even so, no one likes having cold air blown on them in the winter time. You are talking as if this has to do with bringing down the temperature of the house, it doesn\'t. It has to do with the furnace blowing cold air rather than hot air.

Heat pumps aren\'t furnaces. You\'ve got to pump the gaseous working fluid out to the heat exchanger in the indoor room where it can condense and release heat into the room. If you don\'t want to use one of the room heat exchangers to boil off the refrigerant that has heated up the outside radiator, use one in a more isolated indoor space which you can let cool off a bit without worrying anybody, or maybe even a electric heater. Wittering on as if heat pumps work the same way as furnaces is a bit silly.

You need to look up the definition of \"furnace\".

\"a container that is heated to a very high temperature, so that substances that are put inside it, such as metal, will melt or burn\"

Americans also use the term to cover \"an appliance fired by gas or oil in which air or water is heated to be circulated throughout a building in a heating system\"
which is a bit strange. You can talk about electric furnaces, but the core meaning is an enclosed area which gets hot.

A heat pump compresses a compressible (and eventually condensable) gas, but the heat transfer takes place where the working fluid condenses or evaporates, which isn\'t inside the compressor, which is the core of the heat pump, but no kind of furnace.

> A heat pump is a furnace.

You may like to think so, but you happen to be wrong.

> Either way, you are being silly about this, digging in your heels rather than discussing the issue. The point is a heat pump system is going to use the same air space for drawing heat for defrosting as it heats.

It doesn\'t have to. Our air-conditioning system has three different heat exchangers inside the apartment - one in the living room and the other two in the bedrooms, and one outside which acts as the heat sink or source. Which one might get cooled to warm up the outdoor heat exchanger would be a matter of choice.

> Anything else would be prohibitively expensive to run the ductwork or dampers or other silly notions.

All three indoor heat exchanges have their own pipework to the compressor and the outdoor heat exchanger, and separate controls that regulate (at least potentially) different temperatures for each target room . They wouldn\'t be any use if they didn\'t.

I don\'t know what kind of antiquate relic you think are talking about.

> Maybe they do such things down under, but not in the civilized world.

It\'s a Mitsubishi system, imported from Japan (which is sort of up over from us). I think you can get similar systems from Siemens, made in Germany. What you seem to be saying is that the US isn\'t part of the civilised world - which is easy enough to believe after Trump. After all, you don\'t even have universal health care.

> You mention electric heater... yes, that is what I said they do, they run the auxiliary heat (often electric resistance heating) to prevent blowing cold air on the occupants.

It\'s a clumsy option, and a bit wasteful. but it would work. It certainly isn\'t essential, which is what you seem to want to claim.

I\'m glad you finally understand and can now stop wittering on.

Cold drafts are something you try to prevent in cold weather.

No one likes cold air from their heating system,

They don\'t get enough of it to notice.

In this country that is not the case. Maybe the temps never get cold enough downunder for this to matter. The original objection to heat pumps when they first started to be used much in the 70s or 80s was the fact that they don\'t blow warm air. An oil burner blows warm air that feels good. The heat pumps produced air that was barely above room temperature and felt cold because it was below body temp.

Wanting a heat pump to work the same way as a furnace is pretty silly.

They eventually reduced that so the air from the vents actually feels warm now. But when it first comes on it blows cold air until the system warms up.

Why would it need to blow air before the surface it was blowing the air over was condensing enough refrigerant to emit heat? That sounds like incompetent design (or somebody cheap-skating on temperature sensors).

Because they try to meet price points, yes, being cheap because people buy on price, not obscure technical details. Besides we are talking about defrosting where the coils start cold and get colder.

People buy on performance as well as price. I saw one firm go to the wall in a few years because the boss was more interested in making his machine easier to sell than reliable in use. One of his engineers got a job someplace else and got the chance to put something together that worked just as well and kept on working, and ended up with 98% of the market (according to Mike Engelhardt of LTSpice fame, who\'d worked for him before he joined Linear Technology). I got stuck with developing something that was easier to sell because it worked better, and while we got the better performance, we didn\'t get it fast enough.

Better heat systems use a two speed fan that blows slowly at first to minimize this as well as continuing to blow after the pump is turned off to remove residual coil heat... without blowing air that feels cold.

Even better systems would have an infinitely variable fan speed. You do seem to be talking about the limitations of cheap/incompetent design rather than anything fundamental.

Lol! You actually don\'t know much about this do you? This is not one of your millikelvin devices. They actually have to sell these systems. I am talking about what is used in homes, not research experiments.

I\'m talking about the commercial system we got installed in our apartment a few years ago. There\'s nothing remotely researchy about it. And my milli-kevlin system was sold for doing routine lab-work, year in, year out. We swapped out the pumped coolant circulation for a heat pipe because the heat pipe kept on working for longer without needing any attention (as is mentioned in the paper).

Suggesting that no one cares about the cold air that is *actually* cold, below room temperature cold is pure BS. Why else would they go to so much trouble to prevent blowing room temperature air from a heat pump much less colder air?

Because they hadn\'t thought about what they were doing?

so they use auxiliary heat (usually straight resistance heating) to prevent this. I suppose Australians are tougher material or just can\'t afford the heating coils.

I was making the point that heat pumps can work both ways. There are bits of Australia that get below freezing in winter, mostly skiing resorts, but I\'ve not lived there.

Doesn\'t matter if the outside temps are below freezing. The heat pump coils have to be well colder than the outside air to work. The worst case is in a light rain, just above freezing. You can get a large build up of ice before the defrost cycle kicks in which takes time to remove.

You might, if your system had been designed by an idiot.

Ok, you have stopped talking about the issues and now are insulting anyone and everyone involved without addressing any of the technical issues.

You don\'t seem to understand how heat pumps work, or where the heat actually gets transferred. This does show up in what you post, and I am obliged to comment on it.

> Sometimes I wonder if this is about mental decline as you age.

This often comes up when somebody is failing to follow an argument. Flyguy seem to think that everybody except him is senile.

> You do seem to have a regular pattern of discussing facts, followed by entrenchment and restating the same facts (rather than a better discussion of new facts others have pointed out), followed by insults.

Where is the \"new fact\" that you pointed out? You seem fixed on confusing a heat pump with a burner ( or \"furnace\" in your slightly odd vocabulary), and seem unwilling to think about where the heat transfers actually take place in a heat-pump based system.

> What is going on that you can\'t just discuss the issues rationally rather than getting defensive and lashing out?

The problem is that you won\'t think about what\'s actually going on, and don\'t want to realise that your original take on the situation was a somewhat over-simplified.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
C

Cydrome Leader

Guest
Anthony William Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 6:20:38 PM UTC+11, Cydrome Leader wrote:
Anthony William Sloman <bill....@ieee.org> wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 6:41:48 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 1:01:18 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2022-01-21, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\" <fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

snip

You didn\'t factor in the transportation cost of the electricity. The losses are not large, but it starts eating into the CoP margin. The real issue is the cost of the installation. A heat pump requires backup heat for when it\'s not very effective such as low temps but also for removing ice from the coils. To do that they run it in air conditioner mode and run the backup heat to keep the house from cooling off.

Actually, they don\'t or at least they don\'t have to. In Australia most
air-conditioning systems as touted as \"reverse cycle systems\". You can run
the compressor in reverse so it while it can cool the house in summer, it.

Oh really? How do they run the compressor in reverse? flip the leads? Let\'s
all take notes as the guru of heat pumps enlightens us once again.

There are all sort of options. Using a pair of valves to flip the
intakes and outlets would work. If the compressor is being spun by a
synchronous motor you could use electronics to make it spin in the
opposite direction. I haven\'t dismanted my Mitsubishi reverse cycle
air-conditioner to find out how they do it - it would invalidate my
guarantee if I did, and I don\'t really need to know. Cydrome Leader does
- he\'s advanced enough fatuous misconceptions to make it clear that he
hasn\'t got a clue.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Well, the expert has spoken. There might be a synchronous motor in the
compressor and some magic electronics to spin it the other direction.

Ignore the reversing valve I mentioned originally, that must be one of my
misconceptions about parts extra parts to fail in the heating or cooling
months.
 
R

Rick C

Guest
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 9:14:31 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 10:54:13 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 1:42:21 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 2:39:38 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail..com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 8:48:26 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 2:06:19 AM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 5:38:03 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 6:41:48 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 1:01:18 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2022-01-21, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\" <fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
snip
You didn\'t factor in the transportation cost of the electricity. The losses are not large, but it starts eating into the CoP margin. The real issue is the cost of the installation. A heat pump requires backup heat for when it\'s not very effective such as low temps but also for removing ice from the coils. To do that they run it in air conditioner mode and run the backup heat to keep the house from cooling off.
Actually, they don\'t or at least they don\'t have to. In Australia most air-conditioning systems as touted as \"reverse cycle systems\". You can run the compressor in reverse so it while it can cool the house in summer, it can also be used to warm it in winter. This doesn\'t require any mechanical reconfiguration (or at least nothing that asks me to do more than select the right option on the controller). If you want to de-ice the coils you reverse-cycle it briefly. Cools the house a little in the process, but not for long enough for you to notice.

You must keep the heat low in Australia then. Deicing does very much blow cool air through the home unless you aren\'t using forced air heat.
You don\'t have to do it for long - just long enough to turn the bulky frost into water. If it then freezes to clear ice it doesn\'t insulate the outside heat exchange to any perceptible extent.
You are being silly now. You don\'t remove the ice in a few seconds.

Clear ice isn\'t a problem - it\'s not a good insulator compared with the static boundary layer of air just above it. Fluffy frost is, because it reduces air circulation. There\'s not much water involved, so it doesn\'t take long to melt it down to liquid water which can run off.

It takes a bit of time. Even so, no one likes having cold air blown on them in the winter time. You are talking as if this has to do with bringing down the temperature of the house, it doesn\'t. It has to do with the furnace blowing cold air rather than hot air.

Heat pumps aren\'t furnaces. You\'ve got to pump the gaseous working fluid out to the heat exchanger in the indoor room where it can condense and release heat into the room. If you don\'t want to use one of the room heat exchangers to boil off the refrigerant that has heated up the outside radiator, use one in a more isolated indoor space which you can let cool off a bit without worrying anybody, or maybe even a electric heater. Wittering on as if heat pumps work the same way as furnaces is a bit silly.

You need to look up the definition of \"furnace\".
\"a container that is heated to a very high temperature, so that substances that are put inside it, such as metal, will melt or burn\"

In case you aren\'t familiar with dictionaries, they often list more than one definition to cover all cases of usage.

\"a piece of equipment for heating a building\"

I could go on, but I\'m sure you know how to use the Internet thing even if only to support your view.


> Americans also use the term to cover \"an appliance fired by gas or oil in which air or water is heated to be circulated throughout a building in a heating system\"

Indeed, perhaps you are not aware I am in the US. So you acknowledge my use of the word, thank you.


which is a bit strange. You can talk about electric furnaces, but the core meaning is an enclosed area which gets hot.

A heat pump compresses a compressible (and eventually condensable) gas, but the heat transfer takes place where the working fluid condenses or evaporates, which isn\'t inside the compressor, which is the core of the heat pump, but no kind of furnace.

Dear god! You really would be hot and heavy in the Angels on the head of a pin argument! Anything to save face I suppose. No one is calling the compressor or the evaporator or any other part of the furnace, but rather the heating system as a whole is the furnace.


A heat pump is a furnace.
You may like to think so, but you happen to be wrong.

Except that you just acknowledged this is correct. Your quote, \"an appliance fired by gas or oil in which air or water is heated to be circulated throughout a building in a heating system\". We are talking about a furnace that heats air to be circulated throughout a building. Just to be pedantic since you are being absurd about this, \"in a heating system\" is poorly constructed but meant to modify \"is heated\" as in \"...is heated in a heating system...\". Perhaps that is where you get the mistaken idea that a heat pump is not referred to as a furnace when you can read in simple English, even simple enough for you to understand, the term furnace can be applied to any \"appliance\" that heats air or water to heat a home.


Either way, you are being silly about this, digging in your heels rather than discussing the issue. The point is a heat pump system is going to use the same air space for drawing heat for defrosting as it heats.
It doesn\'t have to. Our air-conditioning system has three different heat exchangers inside the apartment - one in the living room and the other two in the bedrooms, and one outside which acts as the heat sink or source. Which one might get cooled to warm up the outdoor heat exchanger would be a matter of choice.

You can babble about any fantasy system you wish, but which ever the system uses would cool the house. Which one have you selected?


Anything else would be prohibitively expensive to run the ductwork or dampers or other silly notions.
All three indoor heat exchanges have their own pipework to the compressor and the outdoor heat exchanger, and separate controls that regulate (at least potentially) different temperatures for each target room . They wouldn\'t be any use if they didn\'t.

So how does your system work to deice? Where does it get the heat?


> I don\'t know what kind of antiquate relic you think are talking about.

It\'s called forced air heating and cooling which is the less expensive than multiple heat exchangers. Since this is the dominant form of home heating for the last 60 years, that is the default. I installed a new heat pump some years ago for about $6,000. A friend who was selling a house built in \'45 or \'35, I forget which, had a steam heat system which had to be replaced. They installed a system like you describe for $17,000. Yeah, a huge difference. That was the second system, the first system never controlled the temperature correctly.

In Puerto Rico there are the units that look like window air conditioners, but typically mounted in the wall. However better homes have ductless \'mini-split\' as you have with an outside compressor (to reduce noise) and inside convectors. They typically have a 1 to 1 connection since the reason they are used is the simpler installation over a ducted system. A 1 to many installation would require long runs of the copper tubing.

https://lirp.cdn-website.com/06950d65/dms3rep/multi/opt/1329e7d8-7652-45cd-ad1e-929293040210-673w.jpg

This is the sort of mess you end up with in more dense apartments.


> > Maybe they do such things down under, but not in the civilized world.

I\'ll tell the people in the US what you think... not! No one cares... if this group is any example, no one in the world cares. You seem to come here for a perverse sense of pleasure from pointless arguments, like this one.


> It\'s a Mitsubishi system, imported from Japan (which is sort of up over from us). I think you can get similar systems from Siemens, made in Germany. What you seem to be saying is that the US isn\'t part of the civilised world - which is easy enough to believe after Trump. After all, you don\'t even have universal health care.

I\'m saying we use HVAC systems that are suitable for our needs and budgets, not systems to please arrogant idiots who think they know more than they do. Something you have in common with Larkin.


You mention electric heater... yes, that is what I said they do, they run the auxiliary heat (often electric resistance heating) to prevent blowing cold air on the occupants.
It\'s a clumsy option, and a bit wasteful. but it would work. It certainly isn\'t essential, which is what you seem to want to claim.

If you have no auxiliary heat, then I guess you give up the ghost when the temperature drops below your system\'s cut off temperature.


I\'m glad you finally understand and can now stop wittering on.

Cold drafts are something you try to prevent in cold weather.

No one likes cold air from their heating system,

They don\'t get enough of it to notice.

In this country that is not the case. Maybe the temps never get cold enough downunder for this to matter. The original objection to heat pumps when they first started to be used much in the 70s or 80s was the fact that they don\'t blow warm air. An oil burner blows warm air that feels good. The heat pumps produced air that was barely above room temperature and felt cold because it was below body temp.

Wanting a heat pump to work the same way as a furnace is pretty silly..

They eventually reduced that so the air from the vents actually feels warm now. But when it first comes on it blows cold air until the system warms up.

Why would it need to blow air before the surface it was blowing the air over was condensing enough refrigerant to emit heat? That sounds like incompetent design (or somebody cheap-skating on temperature sensors).

Because they try to meet price points, yes, being cheap because people buy on price, not obscure technical details. Besides we are talking about defrosting where the coils start cold and get colder.
People buy on performance as well as price. I saw one firm go to the wall in a few years because the boss was more interested in making his machine easier to sell than reliable in use. One of his engineers got a job someplace else and got the chance to put something together that worked just as well and kept on working, and ended up with 98% of the market (according to Mike Engelhardt of LTSpice fame, who\'d worked for him before he joined Linear Technology). I got stuck with developing something that was easier to sell because it worked better, and while we got the better performance, we didn\'t get it fast enough.

Yeah, reliable has nothing to do with what we have been discussing.


Better heat systems use a two speed fan that blows slowly at first to minimize this as well as continuing to blow after the pump is turned off to remove residual coil heat... without blowing air that feels cold.

Even better systems would have an infinitely variable fan speed. You do seem to be talking about the limitations of cheap/incompetent design rather than anything fundamental.

Lol! You actually don\'t know much about this do you? This is not one of your millikelvin devices. They actually have to sell these systems. I am talking about what is used in homes, not research experiments.
I\'m talking about the commercial system we got installed in our apartment a few years ago. There\'s nothing remotely researchy about it. And my milli-kevlin system was sold for doing routine lab-work, year in, year out. We swapped out the pumped coolant circulation for a heat pipe because the heat pipe kept on working for longer without needing any attention (as is mentioned in the paper).

You don\'t say what you paid for it. Most likely there was no way to install a central HVAC unit. If they aren\'t there you\'d have to install ducts which are not well suited to homes if they weren\'t designed in. So once you start with a split system, you are stuck with it.


Suggesting that no one cares about the cold air that is *actually* cold, below room temperature cold is pure BS. Why else would they go to so much trouble to prevent blowing room temperature air from a heat pump much less colder air?

Because they hadn\'t thought about what they were doing?

so they use auxiliary heat (usually straight resistance heating) to prevent this. I suppose Australians are tougher material or just can\'t afford the heating coils.

I was making the point that heat pumps can work both ways. There are bits of Australia that get below freezing in winter, mostly skiing resorts, but I\'ve not lived there.

Doesn\'t matter if the outside temps are below freezing. The heat pump coils have to be well colder than the outside air to work. The worst case is in a light rain, just above freezing. You can get a large build up of ice before the defrost cycle kicks in which takes time to remove.

You might, if your system had been designed by an idiot.

Ok, you have stopped talking about the issues and now are insulting anyone and everyone involved without addressing any of the technical issues.
You don\'t seem to understand how heat pumps work, or where the heat actually gets transferred. This does show up in what you post, and I am obliged to comment on it.

Yeah, you seem to think this, but you\'ve said nothing of value. You are entering your ad hominem zone, so it\'s probably time to give up trying to have a conversation with you.


Sometimes I wonder if this is about mental decline as you age.
This often comes up when somebody is failing to follow an argument. Flyguy seem to think that everybody except him is senile.

Well, in your case the comment is not from any particulars of this discussion, but observation of your debating technique and the choice and tenacity of your arguments. Perhaps you are worried about your cognitive decline, so rather than banging 18 year olds, you come here to duke it out with anyone and everyone as if that proves something other than the fact that you have a problem. Or maybe for you, this is like a kid pulling the wings off flies? I dunno. I\'m just pointing out your MO.


You do seem to have a regular pattern of discussing facts, followed by entrenchment and restating the same facts (rather than a better discussion of new facts others have pointed out), followed by insults.
Where is the \"new fact\" that you pointed out? You seem fixed on confusing a heat pump with a burner ( or \"furnace\" in your slightly odd vocabulary), and seem unwilling to think about where the heat transfers actually take place in a heat-pump based system.

See, this is a perfect example. In spite of ample evidence, you persist in thinking the use of the term furnace is not correct for heat pumps. Is that obsessive or compulsive? I tend to confuse the two.


What is going on that you can\'t just discuss the issues rationally rather than getting defensive and lashing out?
The problem is that you won\'t think about what\'s actually going on, and don\'t want to realise that your original take on the situation was a somewhat over-simplified.

There is a perfect example of what I am talking about that you replied to!!!

Whatever. I\'m not your therapist. Have a nice conversation with the keyboard. I won\'t bother reading this thread anymore. There\'s no one here left to talk to.

--

Rick C.

+++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
A

Anthony William Sloman

Guest
On Monday, January 24, 2022 at 5:00:35 AM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 9:14:31 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 10:54:13 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 1:42:21 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 2:39:38 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 8:48:26 PM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Sunday, January 23, 2022 at 2:06:19 AM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 5:38:03 AM UTC-5, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 6:41:48 PM UTC+11, gnuarm.del...@gmail.com wrote:
On Saturday, January 22, 2022 at 1:01:18 AM UTC-5, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2022-01-21, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Fri, 21 Jan 2022 20:46:49 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader <pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:
John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jan 2022 19:30:11 -0500, \"Tom Del Rosso\" <fizzbin...@that-google-mail-domain.com> wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

<snip>

It takes a bit of time. Even so, no one likes having cold air blown on them in the winter time. You are talking as if this has to do with bringing down the temperature of the house, it doesn\'t. It has to do with the furnace blowing cold air rather than hot air.

Heat pumps aren\'t furnaces. You\'ve got to pump the gaseous working fluid out to the heat exchanger in the indoor room where it can condense and release heat into the room. If you don\'t want to use one of the room heat exchangers to boil off the refrigerant that has heated up the outside radiator, use one in a more isolated indoor space which you can let cool off a bit without worrying anybody, or maybe even a electric heater. Wittering on as if heat pumps work the same way as furnaces is a bit silly.

You need to look up the definition of \"furnace\".

\"a container that is heated to a very high temperature, so that substances that are put inside it, such as metal, will melt or burn\"
In case you aren\'t familiar with dictionaries, they often list more than one definition to cover all cases of usage.

\"a piece of equipment for heating a building\"

I could go on, but I\'m sure you know how to use the Internet thing even if only to support your view.

Americans also use the term to cover \"an appliance fired by gas or oil in which air or water is heated to be circulated throughout a building in a heating system\"
Indeed, perhaps you are not aware I am in the US. So you acknowledge my use of the word, thank you.

So you claim that I can\'t use a dictionary, then immediately afterwards acknowledge that I have. This is a Flyguy-level performance.

which is a bit strange. You can talk about electric furnaces, but the core meaning is an enclosed area which gets hot.

A heat pump compresses a compressible (and eventually condensable) gas, but the heat transfer takes place where the working fluid condenses or evaporates, which isn\'t inside the compressor, which is the core of the heat pump, but no kind of furnace.

Dear god! You really would be hot and heavy in the Angels on the head of a pin argument! Anything to save face I suppose. No one is calling the compressor or the evaporator or any other part of the furnace, but rather the heating system as a whole is the furnace.

It isn\'t. If you track the meaning back to the source of the word, the furnace is the bit that gets hot in which the circulating fluid is heated up.

A heat pump is a furnace.

You may like to think so, but you happen to be wrong.
Except that you just acknowledged this is correct. Your quote, \"an appliance fired by gas or oil in which air or water is heated to be circulated throughout a building in a heating system\".

A heat pump based system isn\'t fired by oil or gas. Americans seem to use \"furnace\" where more sensible people would use \"burner\", but a heat pump doesn\'t \"burn\" anything and the heat is released (or absorbed) in the heat exchangers where the working fluid is evaporated or condensed, not in the compressor.

> We are talking about a furnace that heats air to be circulated throughout a building.

We aren\'t. Heat pump systems circulate their working fluid which isn\'t air - as either gas or liquid and the heat transfer happens when the fluid changes from gas to liquid or back again (which does happen in different places).

> Just to be pedantic since you are being absurd about this, \"in a heating system\" is poorly constructed but meant to modify \"is heated\" as in \"...is heated in a heating system...\". Perhaps that is where you get the mistaken idea that a heat pump is not referred to as a furnace when you can read in simple English, even simple enough for you to understand, the term furnace can be applied to any \"appliance\" that heats air or water to heat a home.

It can be - by people who aren\'t quite a literate as they ought to be.

Either way, you are being silly about this, digging in your heels rather than discussing the issue. The point is a heat pump system is going to use the same air space for drawing heat for defrosting as it heats.

It doesn\'t have to. Our air-conditioning system has three different heat exchangers inside the apartment - one in the living room and the other two in the bedrooms, and one outside which acts as the heat sink or source. Which one might get cooled to warm up the outdoor heat exchanger would be a matter of choice.

You can babble about any fantasy system you wish, but which ever the system uses would cool the house. Which one have you selected?

Our air-conditioning system heats and cools three individual rooms. A third heat exchanger out on the balcony cools or heats the rest of the universe with the heat we are sucking in or dumping.

Anything else would be prohibitively expensive to run the ductwork or dampers or other silly notions.

All three indoor heat exchanges have their own pipework to the compressor and the outdoor heat exchanger, and separate controls that regulate (at least potentially) different temperatures for each target room . They wouldn\'t be any use if they didn\'t.

So how does your system work to deice? Where does it get the heat?

It doesn\'t. There\'s no need to de-ice the outside heat exchanger in Sydney. If it had to it could get it from any one of the three room units.

I don\'t know what kind of antiquate relic you think are talking about.

It\'s called forced air heating and cooling which is the less expensive than multiple heat exchangers.

But less flexible. Our circulating water home heating in the UK and the Netherlands had (and has) thermostatic valves on each radiator so that we can set a different temperature for each room. We had a battery operated Honeywell thermostatic valve which could vary our bedroom temperature with time of day - colder when were trying to sleep and warmer when we were getting out of bed.

> Since this is the dominant form of home heating for the last 60 years, that is the default.

Not where I\'ve lived.

> I installed a new heat pump some years ago for about $6,000. A friend who was selling a house built in \'45 or \'35, I forget which, had a steam heat system which had to be replaced. They installed a system like you describe for $17,000. Yeah, a huge difference. That was the second system, the first system never controlled the temperature correctly.

People will pay more for a system that does what they want it to do.

> In Puerto Rico there are the units that look like window air conditioners, but typically mounted in the wall. However better homes have ductless \'mini-split\' as you have with an outside compressor (to reduce noise) and inside convectors. They typically have a 1 to 1 connection since the reason they are used is the simpler installation over a ducted system. A 1 to many installation would require long runs of the copper tubing.

Ours didn\'t.

https://lirp.cdn-website.com/06950d65/dms3rep/multi/opt/1329e7d8-7652-45cd-ad1e-929293040210-673w.jpg

This is the sort of mess you end up with in more dense apartments.

That why we\'ve got a single outside heat exchange, hidden behind the solid-walled bit of the balcony. If the neighbours can\'t see it they can\'t complain about the mess. We wouldn\'t have been aliowed to put it in if they could have.

Maybe they do such things down under, but not in the civilized world.

I\'ll tell the people in the US what you think... not! No one cares... if this group is any example, no one in the world cares. You seem to come here for a perverse sense of pleasure from pointless arguments, like this one.

It\'s a Mitsubishi system, imported from Japan (which is sort of up over from us). I think you can get similar systems from Siemens, made in Germany. What you seem to be saying is that the US isn\'t part of the civilised world - which is easy enough to believe after Trump. After all, you don\'t even have universal health care.

I\'m saying we use HVAC systems that are suitable for our needs and budgets, not systems to please arrogant idiots who think they know more than they do.

What we\'ve got is a perfectly ordinary system for Australia. We got quotes for much the same system from several different suppliers, and nobody acted as if we were being unusual or extravagant. You may be saying that the median American is actually poor than the median Australian, which is true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_wealth_per_adult

The median wealth per adult in Australia is $US 238,072, while it is $US 79,274. The mean wealth in the US at 505,421 is slightly higher than the mean wealth in Australia 477,306, but the US does go in for gross economic inequality

> Something you have in common with Larkin.

Not exactly. I do know quite a bit more than Larkin, and I do seem to know more than you do about this subject. As a candidate for the title of arrogant idiot I\'m not really in the hunt.

You mention electric heater... yes, that is what I said they do, they run the auxiliary heat (often electric resistance heating) to prevent blowing cold air on the occupants.

It\'s a clumsy option, and a bit wasteful. but it would work. It certainly isn\'t essential, which is what you seem to want to claim.

If you have no auxiliary heat, then I guess you give up the ghost when the temperature drops below your system\'s cut off temperature.

You really don\'t understand what heat pumps do, do you.

<snipped the rest which seems to contain even more personal abuse and even less content than your efforts above>

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 

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