Driver to drive?

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
Winston wrote:

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
Winston wrote:

Martin Riddle wrote:

(...)

Bad ground? Distributor to block, block to battery.

Plus ignition module to distributor and all those
nifty connectors.

--Winston

I've pulled all the ignition parts, cleaned and re-tightened the
connections in the process of replacing most of them. battery cables are
(relatively) new. But there may be a block ground I've overlooked.

Yayesss, could be.

Distributor would be a non-issue, as this doesn't use points (the mag
pickup is floating and shielded).

The pass transistor in the ignition module still needs
a solid ground, to work properly, yes?

--Winston

Right. But how is my cheap Sears timing light fixing that (only a connection
to coil secondary needed).
Intermittent problems are like that.
I sometimes assign causation to coincidence, too.

--Winston
 
On a sunny day (Tue, 14 Feb 2012 18:43:24 -0800) it happened "Paul Hovnanian
P.E." <paul@hovnanian.com> wrote in
<lO2dnafrEtJ_hqbSnZ2dnUVZ_oadnZ2d@posted.isomediainc>:

The pass transistor in the ignition module still needs
a solid ground, to work properly, yes?

--Winston

Right. But how is my cheap Sears timing light fixing that (only a connection
to coil secondary needed).
A fun answer would be:
"leave your timing light connected".

It could be flash-over inside the module, and the timing light
perhaps changes capacitance and so in a way secondary voltage peak.
Or maybe its loading does that.
Then one disconnected it may run for a while until a carbon path burns
and it fails again.
A couple of pF HV cap, could fix it (for a while?).
This module, inspect it for cracks, moisture will get in and cause failure.

Else call some car scrap yards ...
 
On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 21:16:20 -0800 FatBytestard
<PhatBytestard@somewheronyourharddrive.org> wrote in Message id:
<kerjj7t7vchfb9jear9usr0lrcn03g2u5r@4ax.com>:

On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:49:48 -0500, JW <none@dev.null> wrote:

On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 10:05:03 -0800 The_Giant_Rat_of_Sumatra
GeorgeTirebiter@drmemory.org> wrote in Message id:
b2bdj7pirt15mehhl045f9s6q0fl2rvibq@4ax.com>:

On Sat, 11 Feb 2012 09:47:14 -0800, "Wayne" <mygarbagecan@verizon.net
wrote:



"The_Giant_Rat_of_Sumatra" wrote in message
news:5grbj75pf3injgus8a30ck99id4rakgjgl@4ax.com...

On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 20:52:11 -0600, tom <news4792@taring.org> wrote:

On 2/10/2012 8:32 PM, Wayne wrote:

He really needs to create a new file from which to cut and paste. Like
most comedians', his jokes get stale after awhile.

-- <VWW, K6EVE
-
But you must admit that this normally quiet newsgroup finally has some
activity. Who knows, this could take on the characteristics of the GFW.
--Wayne W5GIE

"GFW=Great Fractal Wars"

Unfortunately the traffic has nothing to do with antennas.

Things dried up here around 6 months ago. I suspect the people with
brains and stories, and some of us remember who they are, are no longer
with us or finally bailed due to the noise.


I was playing with Moonrakers way back in the early seventies.
-
Moonrakers? LOL. Ok now we have you calibrated.

No, you do not. I was 12 years old, and the gear was my dad's.

Message-ID: <5grbj75pf3injgus8a30ck99id4rakgjgl@4ax.com
"I was playing with Moonrakers way back in the early seventies at 15 yo."

For fuck's sake, can't you at least keep your LIES straight, you utter
fucking imbecile?

I was 12 when he started buying the gear, and 15 when he bought the MR,
MR. JW IDIOT!
Tsk, Tsk. One lie on top of another... Do you have *any* redeeming
qualities whatsoever, you sad little man?
 
On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 06:34:43 -0500, JW <none@dev.null> wrote:

Tsk, Tsk. One lie on top of another... Do you have *any* redeeming
qualities whatsoever, you sad little man?
Go back to your left hand, dumbfuck.
 
Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Tue, 14 Feb 2012 18:43:24 -0800) it happened "Paul
Hovnanian P.E." <paul@hovnanian.com> wrote in
lO2dnafrEtJ_hqbSnZ2dnUVZ_oadnZ2d@posted.isomediainc>:

The pass transistor in the ignition module still needs
a solid ground, to work properly, yes?

--Winston

Right. But how is my cheap Sears timing light fixing that (only a
connection to coil secondary needed).

A fun answer would be:
"leave your timing light connected".
That might burn it up. In addition to keeping it intact for its intended use
as a tool, I need it to get this car started.

It could be flash-over inside the module, and the timing light
perhaps changes capacitance and so in a way secondary voltage peak.
Or maybe its loading does that.
Then one disconnected it may run for a while until a carbon path burns
and it fails again.
A couple of pF HV cap, could fix it (for a while?).
This module, inspect it for cracks, moisture will get in and cause
failure.
I didn't see any. But that doesn't mean they are not there.

The carbon tracks explanation might be the best I've heard yet. I can't
think of a component that would self heal.

Else call some car scrap yards ...
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Power is an aphrodisiac. 60 Hertz more so than 50.
 
Winston wrote:

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
[snip]
Right. But how is my cheap Sears timing light fixing that (only a
connection to coil secondary needed).

Intermittent problems are like that.
I sometimes assign causation to coincidence, too.
Its worked too many times (several dozen) for it to be a coincidence.

The ignition is dead and I can play with it for hours (cranking and fiddling
until I risk killing a deep discharge battery). But the timing light
will 'fix' the ignition within a second or two. Every time. That's what
makes this interesting.

I know what part has to go, so this thread isn't so much about the repair as
it is about the diagnostic.

In that sense, I'm sort of like Dr. House. The patient is dead. I still want
to know why. And I've got a shitty personality, too. ;-)


--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Our bombs are smarter than the average high school student.
At least they can find Kuwait. - A. Whitney Brown
 
On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 10:31:29 -0800, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
<paul@hovnanian.com> wrote:

Winston wrote:

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:

[snip]

Right. But how is my cheap Sears timing light fixing that (only a
connection to coil secondary needed).

Intermittent problems are like that.
I sometimes assign causation to coincidence, too.

Its worked too many times (several dozen) for it to be a coincidence.

The ignition is dead and I can play with it for hours (cranking and fiddling
until I risk killing a deep discharge battery). But the timing light
will 'fix' the ignition within a second or two. Every time. That's what
makes this interesting.

I know what part has to go, so this thread isn't so much about the repair as
it is about the diagnostic.

In that sense, I'm sort of like Dr. House. The patient is dead. I still want
to know why. And I've got a shitty personality, too. ;-)
Is the timing light the clamp-on-spark-wire type? If so, maybe your
first bet is to replace the spark wires ??:)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
Winston wrote:

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
Winston wrote:

Martin Riddle wrote:
(...)

Bad ground? Distributor to block, block to battery.
Plus ignition module to distributor and all those
nifty connectors.

--Winston
I've pulled all the ignition parts, cleaned and re-tightened the
connections in the process of replacing most of them. battery cables are
(relatively) new. But there may be a block ground I've overlooked.
Yayesss, could be.

Distributor would be a non-issue, as this doesn't use points (the mag
pickup is floating and shielded).

The pass transistor in the ignition module still needs
a solid ground, to work properly, yes?

--Winston

Right. But how is my cheap Sears timing light fixing that (only a connection
to coil secondary needed).
It dumps some coil energy and provides a capacitance. Might seem small,
but transformed to the coil primary that can be quite a lot. Did you try
hanging a cap across the primary?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:

<snip>

Its worked too many times (several dozen) for it to be a coincidence.

The ignition is dead and I can play with it for hours (cranking and fiddling
until I risk killing a deep discharge battery). But the timing light
will 'fix' the ignition within a second or two. Every time. That's what
makes this interesting.
The timing light acts sort of like a zener, right? No current
until some particular voltage level is reached. Maybe that's a
clue.

Ed
 
Joerg wrote:

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
Winston wrote:

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
Winston wrote:

Martin Riddle wrote:
(...)

Bad ground? Distributor to block, block to battery.
Plus ignition module to distributor and all those
nifty connectors.

--Winston
I've pulled all the ignition parts, cleaned and re-tightened the
connections in the process of replacing most of them. battery cables
are (relatively) new. But there may be a block ground I've overlooked.
Yayesss, could be.

Distributor would be a non-issue, as this doesn't use points (the mag
pickup is floating and shielded).

The pass transistor in the ignition module still needs
a solid ground, to work properly, yes?

--Winston

Right. But how is my cheap Sears timing light fixing that (only a
connection to coil secondary needed).


It dumps some coil energy and provides a capacitance. Might seem small,
but transformed to the coil primary that can be quite a lot. Did you try
hanging a cap across the primary?
Its on my things to try list. The truck is parked right now. I'm digging
through my junk box for an old points condenser (its been years since I've
had a vehicle with points).

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Klein bottle for rent -- inquire within
 
I don't know what's involved as far as where the module is located
physically or electrically in your particular vehicle model.

I realize that you stated the coil still has 12V, but that may be that's not
what's being interrupted.
You didn't specifically state that you observe this problem in your garage
or driveway, or when actually driving the vehicle, or both.

When I encounter a problem which acts just like turning the key off, I
examine the key switch very closely, and if I can't actually confirm that
the key switch is not the problem (bypass and test driving or thorough
testing on the bench), I'll replace it.
I would highly suspect the switch in a 30 year old vehicle.

Of course, many yards/meters of old wiring and moisture compromised
connector terminals are always worth consideration.

I'm supposing that the timing light used is not an inductive type. The air
gap between the rotor tip and the cap electrodes is intended to increase the
intensity of the spark at the spark plugs, so adding an old style timing
light (springy end poked into the coil output well) in series with the coil
HT wire could be having a similar effect, maybe.
I'd definitely want a suppressive wire core HT lead there, not the
impregnated synthetic strand type of HT lead.

The module could very likely be developing a intermittent fault, but I would
expect an internal component fault/breakdown problem to be sensitive to
different environmental/ambient temperatures, so you might try placing it in
a freezer, and also a hot box heated with a heat gun or similar method.

Trigger coils located in distributors generally stop working altogether when
they develop an open circuit fault, IME.. but a possibility exists for
intermittent OC faults in the trigger coil leads and associated
connections/wiring.

Building a reliable ignition module (capacitor discharge possibly) can be a
serious undertaking considering the extreme enviroment in an engine
compartment.
I believe ignition module makers utilize a superior grade of components to
be used in these sorts of products, not just ordinary catalog parts, IMO.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <paul@hovnanian.com> wrote in message
news:doCdnSgw_clnJ6TSnZ2dnUVZ_tSdnZ2d@posted.isomediainc...
I have an old Toyota FJ40 (1979) with 'transistorized' ignition. A
reluctance pickup wheel in the distributor and solid state module to
switch
the coil in place of the old points.

Its starting to get a bit flakey. From time to time (and more frequently
now) the ignition just cuts out. Just like turning the key off. But it
still has +12V to the coil. After starting the replace parts until its
fixed method, I'm down to the solid state module now.

But, and here's the puzzle, one of my diagnostics for spark/no spark has
been to throw an old timing light on to the coil output. Oddly enough,
that
fixes the problem within a few seconds. The engine fires up and runs fine
for a few days. Otherwise, its crank, wiggle wires, poke around with a
voltmeter to no effect.

At first, I figured that too large spark plug gaps were causing the coil
secondary (and primary) currents to decay too slowly and that this was
screwing up the module's operation (bad flyback diode perhaps?). The
addition of the timing light was like putting a gas discharge surge
arrester in the circuit, clamping the primary voltage quickly. But this
failure continues after having changed plugs, cables, cap, and rotor. New
coil too. So everything should be within spec. And when it runs, it runs
beautifully.

I'm pretty sure its the solid state module that's got to go*. It's the
only
old part left. But I'd like to understand the cause behind the failure
while I fix it. And this is an interesting puzzle. BTW, the module is
potted, so I'm can only guess about its innards.

Any thoughts?

*A replacement is $350. I'm pondering building a DIY unit from scratch.
With
a few test points brought out as well. I've found a few DIY projects on
line (including one with the obligatory uC).

--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:paul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
The blinking cursor writes; and having writ, blinks on.
 
Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
Joerg wrote:

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
Winston wrote:

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:
Winston wrote:

Martin Riddle wrote:
(...)

Bad ground? Distributor to block, block to battery.
Plus ignition module to distributor and all those
nifty connectors.

--Winston
I've pulled all the ignition parts, cleaned and re-tightened the
connections in the process of replacing most of them. battery cables
are (relatively) new. But there may be a block ground I've overlooked.
Yayesss, could be.

Distributor would be a non-issue, as this doesn't use points (the mag
pickup is floating and shielded).

The pass transistor in the ignition module still needs
a solid ground, to work properly, yes?

--Winston
Right. But how is my cheap Sears timing light fixing that (only a
connection to coil secondary needed).

It dumps some coil energy and provides a capacitance. Might seem small,
but transformed to the coil primary that can be quite a lot. Did you try
hanging a cap across the primary?

Its on my things to try list. The truck is parked right now. I'm digging
through my junk box for an old points condenser (its been years since I've
had a vehicle with points).
Same here, last time I had one was in the mid 80's and it was in Europe.
I don't remember exactly but something in the 0.22uF or 0.33uF range and
1000V, I think. Maybe even a 600V type for a quick test. Sometimes you
find those in EMC filters, a X-caps.

Old ones from the junk box could have gone bad over the many decades
they sat in there. At least I'd measure it.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
"ehsjr" <ehsjr@nospamverizon.net> wrote in message
news:jhhgi6$416$1@news.eternal-september.org...
Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:

snip



Its worked too many times (several dozen) for it to be a coincidence.

The ignition is dead and I can play with it for hours (cranking and
fiddling
until I risk killing a deep discharge battery). But the timing light
will 'fix' the ignition within a second or two. Every time. That's what
makes this interesting.
Paul,

1) is the timing light the passive kind, i.e. it is just a neon bulb?

2) do you connect the timing light in series or in parallel with the
secondary?

If you connect it in series, then I have info for you...

I have seen this happen several times, if there is a fouled plug with
leakage, it can cause that cylinder to mis fire because the spark never
jumps. I discovered one day by accident, pulling the wires one by one to
see which plug was fouled. If you pull the wire off a bit but leave it
close to the plug so that a spark jumps from the wire to the tip of the
plug, it can make even a fouled plug fire. I had a fouled plug and if I
held the end of the wire near the plug, the engine would smooth out I think
the theory is that the leakage causes so much damping to the sec that the
voltage can never build enough to jump the gap. But if you then insert a
gap, the secondary can now build up energy and once it jumps the new gap, it
will jump the other gap as well. If you are having all the plugs mis fire,
then you may have leakage in the distributor to ground and putting this gap
in series with the secondary works as described above. You may have an arc
track to ground someplace. Did you try a new dist cap and coil?

Mark
 
On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 08:07:05 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

Here's another interesting relationship: the more politically powerful
a person is, the more likely that they are sociopaths.

Profound observation.

May I add?:

The more "god-fearing" a person, the greater likelihood of a
sociopath.

You have that entirely backwards. Read this:

http://tinyurl.com/829rwty


Totally irrelevant.

?-)
 
On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 21:37:35 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

Larkin's narcissism is such that he thinks he can rescue even such as
NymNoNuts.

?-)

It never hurts to experiment.

Criminy, over 100 failed tries and still you persist? That is not
experimenting, that is arrogance and narcissism of high purity.

?-)

Get a job.
I have one, it pays about US$100,000 per year, doing electrical
engineering. That is why i can't spend all my time on Usenet like you.

?-)
 
On 13 Feb 2012 16:02:53 GMT, John Doe <jdoe@usenetlove.invalid> wrote:

I am impressed by how a person's big ego can prevent him (or her)
from showing appreciation for a good idea.

An intelligent person who might not be able to develop a better
method, but who can at least recognize one when they see it
(someone who is not inhibited by his own big ego), might notice
the benefit of using a method that does not require tools or ties.

Take a wire of whatever sort
We saw your technique about twenty times now. If any here thought it was
all that you would have been welcomed better. If that is all you have to
offer, leave sed, you have nothing for us here.

?-/
 
On Feb 13, 7:37 pm, "Paul Hovnanian P.E." <p...@hovnanian.com> wrote:
I have an old Toyota FJ40 (1979) with 'transistorized' ignition. A
reluctance pickup wheel in the distributor and solid state module to switch
the coil in place of the old points.

Its starting to get a bit flakey. From time to time (and more frequently
now) the ignition just cuts out. Just like turning the key off. But it
still has +12V to the coil. After starting the replace parts until its
fixed method, I'm down to the solid state module now.

But, and here's the puzzle, one of my diagnostics for spark/no spark has
been to throw an old timing light on to the coil output. Oddly enough, that
fixes the problem within a few seconds. The engine fires up and runs fine
for a few days. Otherwise, its crank, wiggle wires, poke around with a
voltmeter to no effect.

At first, I figured that too large spark plug gaps were causing the coil
secondary (and primary) currents to decay too slowly and that this was
screwing up the module's operation (bad flyback diode perhaps?). The
addition of the timing light was like putting a gas discharge surge
arrester in the circuit, clamping the primary voltage quickly. But this
failure continues after having changed plugs, cables, cap, and rotor. New
coil too. So everything should be within spec. And when it runs, it runs
beautifully.

I'm pretty sure its the solid state module that's got to go*. It's the only
old part left. But I'd like to understand the cause behind the failure
while I fix it. And this is an interesting puzzle. BTW, the module is
potted, so I'm can only guess about its innards.

Any thoughts?

*A replacement is $350. I'm pondering building a DIY unit from scratch. With
a few test points brought out as well. I've found a few DIY projects on
line (including one with the obligatory uC).

--
Paul Hovnanian     mailto:p...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
The blinking cursor writes; and having writ, blinks on.
Can you leave the timing light in place permanently?
 
On 2012-02-14, Paul Hovnanian P.E. <paul@hovnanian.com> wrote:

At first, I figured that too large spark plug gaps were causing the coil
secondary (and primary) currents to decay too slowly and that this was
screwing up the module's operation (bad flyback diode perhaps?). The
addition of the timing light was like putting a gas discharge surge
arrester in the circuit, clamping the primary voltage quickly. But this
failure continues after having changed plugs, cables, cap, and rotor. New
coil too. So everything should be within spec. And when it runs, it runs
beautifully.
Someone else said the timing light is acting as a spark gap giving a
pulse that overcomes or blows out a conductive path across the plug,
sounds like a good explanation to me.

Switching to hotter plugs should push that problem into the future a bit.
I don't know if a stuck thermostat can cause plugs run too cool and foul,
I'm guessing not, so it's probably piston rings, thicker oil might
help.

--
⚂⚃ 100% natural

--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to news@netfront.net ---
 
On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 05:11:06 -0800 FatBytestard
<PhatBytestard@somewheronyourharddrive.org> wrote in Message id:
<smbnj7lrdcjjmai7c6vjv33bcgb8u7ms91@4ax.com>:

On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 06:34:43 -0500, JW <none@dev.null> wrote:

Tsk, Tsk. One lie on top of another... Do you have *any* redeeming
qualities whatsoever, you sad little man?

Go back to your left hand, dumbfuck.
Stop parroting things that you were told the last time you were
pivot man at a circle jerk.
 
On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 06:35:30 -0500, JW <none@dev.null> wrote:

On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 05:11:06 -0800 FatBytestard
PhatBytestard@somewheronyourharddrive.org> wrote in Message id:
smbnj7lrdcjjmai7c6vjv33bcgb8u7ms91@4ax.com>:

On Wed, 15 Feb 2012 06:34:43 -0500, JW <none@dev.null> wrote:

Tsk, Tsk. One lie on top of another... Do you have *any* redeeming
qualities whatsoever, you sad little man?

Go back to your left hand, dumbfuck.

Stop parroting things that you were told the last time you were
pivot man at a circle jerk.
A party you are more familiar with than I, since this is the first I've
heard of such a thing.

You seem intimate with such gatherings, however, since you are the one
in command of the jargon.

You lose. Again. Your norm. FOAD, you retarded twit.
 

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