Super duper hype fast FET driver?

JW wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 13:02:26 -0700 Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote
in Message id: <9bfqulFgnsU1@mid.individual.net>:

Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Vladimir Vassilevsky wrote:

Joerg wrote:

[...abortion talks...]


IMHO they condoned murder, plain and simple. "Oh, you
in there, you may have a heartbeat but you are too small so we have
deemed you unworthy of being called a human being". It's sickening.
A person does not have a right for a body of another person. Mother
provides her body as a favor.

The mother made the choice of conceiving and with that come certain
obligations.
No. That was just carelessness.

How does that justify killing the unborn?

What if she was raped?
Click to expand...

That is one of those tough cases. Very rare but happens. If she is a
religious woman she'd probably carry it out and either raise it herself
or adopt it out. The unborn isn't guilty fot it. Rape also happens a lot
in "consentual" relationships, more than it seems.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 07:47:55 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:55:48 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:04:19 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:20:32 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
[...]

It's still better to not saturate them. Even a simple b-c schottky
makes a world of difference. I think I drove my test samples with
74ACxx logic, series resistor, || a few pF, Vdd=+5v.

74AC is too slow for my case. How did you keep it out of saturation? The
old Schottky Baker clamp usually doesn't work on those. A two-diode
Baker makes it all sluggish, too much total inductance in the drive.
A 74ACT octal buffer makes a damned fine high-speed output driver or
fet gate driver. Use 4 or better all 8 sections in parallel.

Can it rival the NL37 series? The advantage would be that those come in
octals. In the old days I have sometimes soldered several on top of each
other but only in experiments. I know that was naughty but it did drive
the big pulser (the super expensive lab grade driver box had croaked).
It was 74AC though.
They are almost as fast as NL37s, sub-ns, but have the advantage that
they are "ttl" compatible. If you power an NL from, say, 6.5 volts and
drive the input from 3.3 or even 5 volt logic, they can really get
hot.

Plus, you get 8 in a can.

Ok, that almost sounds like a deal. Being a bit slower can be made up by
more drive gusto. Eight means more amps than three. Just like the old
muscle car wisdom, cubic inches cannot be replaced by anthing, except by
more cubic-inches :)

Hey Joerg,

Can you apply steps to opposite sides of the capacitive load? +6 step
on one side, -6 on the other. Make those from a mess of ACTs or Tiny
Logic chips. Maybe a little inductive peaking to spice things up.

Double the voltage! Cheap!

I sure wish, but can't get at the other side of the capacitance. If
really, really needed and I can't make any filter-style peaker work well
enough I'd have to roach it all into a circuit with either boostrapped
of artificially split supplies, to squeeze out more amplitude. That will
be the ultimate layout challenge because it all must be very small. Now
if I could design this into an IC, well, then ...


OK, use a balun, bought or home-made, to convert the bridge drive to
single-ended.
Click to expand...
Tough in this case because the duty cycle is really odd. In the range of
0.1% or so. It can be done but it'll be a little more than a balun.
We'll see if the FET method works and if not, then it'll be more R&D.
Since the 7002 is very long in the tooth now maybe there are some newer
not so mainstream devices. A lot of semiconductor stuff is hidden from
the usual marketplaces. When I helped a client pick an IC design house
and toured around with their engineer I was surprised. Some of them
handed us a thick booklet with all the "semi-standard" parts they sell
where they own the IP. Really nifty switcher chips, RF chips and all that.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 07:14:58 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
On Aug 22, 9:46 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Aug 22, 8:16 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
We did recently breadboard and test using octal ACTs as output
drivers, and that's going into two products.
John
I did that waayyy back. It's pretty impressive. One of the last
bipolar variants (ABT?) (AS?) had a faster falling edge, but the pull
up was absolutely pitiful.
I think it was an ABT that we blew when we bootstrapped the ground of
one device onto the tied outputs of another ... *POP* ... and a stench
wafted through the lab.

I wonder if Joerg's whole ckt could be a bridged array of ACT244's,
driving the load?
Unfortunately not :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
Oh, just do that into a transformer then and you're done. 12v, hard,
fast, galvanically isolated, and cheap. A custom transformer would
allow voltage step-up, if you wanted.

One wee problem is that, while DC can be piped around it, transformers
with ratios other than 1:1, 1:4 and so on are very diffuclt to make
wideband.

A 2:1 transmission line transformer is fairly easy. Two hanks of
micro-coax on a toroid. Braids in parallel make the primary, inners in
series are the secondary. Risetime is still way below 1 ns.
Click to expand...
Every time I tried that I couldn't get a whole lot of BW out of it.


One other cute trick is a pulse inverter. One winding on a toroid, but
the inner and outer swap halfway through.
Click to expand...
Not sure how you meant that on a toroid but this may be suitable for a
double-hole core.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 09:11:03 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid>
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 07:47:55 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:55:48 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:04:19 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:20:32 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
[...]

It's still better to not saturate them. Even a simple b-c schottky
makes a world of difference. I think I drove my test samples with
74ACxx logic, series resistor, || a few pF, Vdd=+5v.

74AC is too slow for my case. How did you keep it out of saturation? The
old Schottky Baker clamp usually doesn't work on those. A two-diode
Baker makes it all sluggish, too much total inductance in the drive.
A 74ACT octal buffer makes a damned fine high-speed output driver or
fet gate driver. Use 4 or better all 8 sections in parallel.

Can it rival the NL37 series? The advantage would be that those come in
octals. In the old days I have sometimes soldered several on top of each
other but only in experiments. I know that was naughty but it did drive
the big pulser (the super expensive lab grade driver box had croaked).
It was 74AC though.
They are almost as fast as NL37s, sub-ns, but have the advantage that
they are "ttl" compatible. If you power an NL from, say, 6.5 volts and
drive the input from 3.3 or even 5 volt logic, they can really get
hot.

Plus, you get 8 in a can.

Ok, that almost sounds like a deal. Being a bit slower can be made up by
more drive gusto. Eight means more amps than three. Just like the old
muscle car wisdom, cubic inches cannot be replaced by anthing, except by
more cubic-inches :)

Hey Joerg,

Can you apply steps to opposite sides of the capacitive load? +6 step
on one side, -6 on the other. Make those from a mess of ACTs or Tiny
Logic chips. Maybe a little inductive peaking to spice things up.

Double the voltage! Cheap!

I sure wish, but can't get at the other side of the capacitance. If
really, really needed and I can't make any filter-style peaker work well
enough I'd have to roach it all into a circuit with either boostrapped
of artificially split supplies, to squeeze out more amplitude. That will
be the ultimate layout challenge because it all must be very small. Now
if I could design this into an IC, well, then ...


OK, use a balun, bought or home-made, to convert the bridge drive to
single-ended.


Tough in this case because the duty cycle is really odd. In the range of
0.1% or so. It can be done but it'll be a little more than a balun.
We'll see if the FET method works and if not, then it'll be more R&D.
Since the 7002 is very long in the tooth now maybe there are some newer
not so mainstream devices.
Click to expand...
We've tested a fair number of mosfets and the 7002 is about as fast as
they get. The real screamers are phemts, but are a couple of orders of
magnitude more expensive.

You need, like, an amp of drive, right?

John
 
John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 09:11:03 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 07:47:55 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:55:48 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:04:19 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:20:32 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
[...]

It's still better to not saturate them. Even a simple b-c schottky
makes a world of difference. I think I drove my test samples with
74ACxx logic, series resistor, || a few pF, Vdd=+5v.

74AC is too slow for my case. How did you keep it out of saturation? The
old Schottky Baker clamp usually doesn't work on those. A two-diode
Baker makes it all sluggish, too much total inductance in the drive.
A 74ACT octal buffer makes a damned fine high-speed output driver or
fet gate driver. Use 4 or better all 8 sections in parallel.

Can it rival the NL37 series? The advantage would be that those come in
octals. In the old days I have sometimes soldered several on top of each
other but only in experiments. I know that was naughty but it did drive
the big pulser (the super expensive lab grade driver box had croaked).
It was 74AC though.
They are almost as fast as NL37s, sub-ns, but have the advantage that
they are "ttl" compatible. If you power an NL from, say, 6.5 volts and
drive the input from 3.3 or even 5 volt logic, they can really get
hot.

Plus, you get 8 in a can.

Ok, that almost sounds like a deal. Being a bit slower can be made up by
more drive gusto. Eight means more amps than three. Just like the old
muscle car wisdom, cubic inches cannot be replaced by anthing, except by
more cubic-inches :)
Hey Joerg,

Can you apply steps to opposite sides of the capacitive load? +6 step
on one side, -6 on the other. Make those from a mess of ACTs or Tiny
Logic chips. Maybe a little inductive peaking to spice things up.

Double the voltage! Cheap!

I sure wish, but can't get at the other side of the capacitance. If
really, really needed and I can't make any filter-style peaker work well
enough I'd have to roach it all into a circuit with either boostrapped
of artificially split supplies, to squeeze out more amplitude. That will
be the ultimate layout challenge because it all must be very small. Now
if I could design this into an IC, well, then ...

OK, use a balun, bought or home-made, to convert the bridge drive to
single-ended.

Tough in this case because the duty cycle is really odd. In the range of
0.1% or so. It can be done but it'll be a little more than a balun.
We'll see if the FET method works and if not, then it'll be more R&D.
Since the 7002 is very long in the tooth now maybe there are some newer
not so mainstream devices.

We've tested a fair number of mosfets and the 7002 is about as fast as
they get. The real screamers are phemts, but are a couple of orders of
magnitude more expensive.
Click to expand...
A few bucks would be ok, tens of bucks not so much. That's the problem
with LDMOS, they only make big ones and then they cost a ton. PHEMTs are
all lower voltage AFAIK. Ideally I need a device that can take 15V or
more. There are some good BJTs, screaming fast ones like this at 10-15
cents:

http://www.nxp.com/documents/data_sheet/BFR520T.pdf

But the challenge is saturation and the fact that they can't hold a
switched node "resistively" to a reference voltage while not being
modulated.


You need, like, an amp of drive, right?
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's, like, one amp :)

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
Mark Robarts <mrstarbom@gmail.com> wrote:

Just as a matter of interest. That people didn't live much past 35 is a com=
mon misconception. The average life expectancy of 35 is a result of a very=
high infant mortality rate and does not mean that people did not live to b=
e 90 (or that people did not previously die slowly and painfully).
Click to expand...
Infant mortality usually is factored in in these kind of numbers. IIRC
they start counting if a child is older than 4 or 5.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
 
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 07:28:52 -0700, Joerg
<invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Jon Kirwan wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:02:05 -0700, Joerg
invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

snip
And that's exactly the problem. Dealers want to make money so they mix a
teaser drug into soft drugs and ... kaboom, brain's almost fried. This
is how a guy whom I knew died. Several others are permanently mentally
disabled, and very seriously.

But Joerg, that isn't the only side. There are so many
others, as well. Just to add some balance, I'll talk about a
few.

The near trillion dollar a year business bribes everyone in
our gov't systems. Corrupt police, corrupt judges, corrupt
politicians, and a great deal of violence as well because
there is no court system that can be used to adjudicate
disputes. (So folks take 'justice' into their own hands, as
there is no other option except walking away.)

The destruction caused to society is profound and spreads
across every part of it. Our own US gov't was involved in
transporting cocaine into the US under the Reagan/Bush
administration as part of a larger plan to circumvent the
Boland amendments. It was horrible what that did in our
society. (If you need some names to look up, check up on
Donald Gregg, the senior advisor to G Bush sr and a daily
advisor to him; and Felix Rodriguez who met regularly with
Donald ... as just a very tiny sampling.)

We _must_ be able to trust our police and judicial system, if
it is to function well for all of us. You don't mention any
of this. And it is a cost that is both personal to those who
are dealt injustices by it as well as general.

Trust, yes, but one must remain watchful. I had an experience a few days
ago that was disappointing. Called 911 because someone left two large
dogs in a small car in the full sun. When the driver didn't return after
10mins and the dogs started to obviously suffer I called. The deputy
came and qizzed me. How I could come to the conclusion that they suffer
and so on. WHAT?
Click to expand...
I mean in a general sense. What "makes a functioning gov't"
has a great deal to do with trust. We "trust" that when we
go to court, that we have at least _some_ chance of justice.
We don't expect perfection. We don't expect a great deal, in
fact... we know there are uncontrollable factors. But we
_choose_ to allow a legal system to prosecute the man who
raped our daughter, for example, rather than go over and take
matters into our own hands because .... although we don't
actually believe what we _want_ will be the result, we do
accept that we have to trust in a system that on balance is
better than the alternative -- complete anarchy.

This is what is so difficult to create in places like Iraq,
for example. You start with a situation where some groups do
not trust other groups, at all. The legal system, if run
mostly by one side, is not at all trusted by the other side.
So they don't go to court, because they have zero faith in
it. Not 100% faith -- no one asks for that or demands it.
But 0% faith. So, because there is no redress and no belief
in even the possibility of it, people instead are "forced" by
that belief to choose among what few alternatives they feel
exist -- generally speaking, violence and mayhem, or else
walking away with hatred in their hearts and no chance or
hope for redress. If it happens at all, it will take a long
time to build those bridges. There will need to be actual
evidence that groups in control make decisions that go
against their own groups' interests enough times and in
enough difficult situations that _evidence_ exists that there
is some chance for justice. Time. Time. And hopefully in
the interim, nothing that lights off another series of
violence.

Trust is rarely given away and usually only won slowly and
over time and given evidence during times where it is proven
out. It takes only a few minutes to destroy. One must
protect it like the flame of a candle in the wind, once you
have it.

We don't often, as US citizens born in a place that is often
so far from such places as Iraq, realize just how hard it was
to build up our legal system. And it didn't just start here,
either. And we don't realize what life might be like without
trusting it. At least a little bit.

For those born black, those older now at least, they do know
what I'm talking about because they DIDN'T trust the police
or the legal system to provide that measure of justice. It's
part of why the Black Panthers were started. (I know a
little something about this and specific events in Chicago
over the years, since my wife was an active part of this bit
of history when she was younger.) It's part of why they
would try and take themselves (unarmed, of course, but in a
special uniform that would be recognized) and cameras into
the streets when a policeman was seen in their neighborhoods.
Did you know that Leonard Bernstein (yes, the composer and
conductor guy) supported the actively?

Short story. My wife was all 'gung ho' about challenging the
"powers that be" at the time. Demonstrations of various
kinds -- for example, a "kiss in" in a public park where
girls would kiss girls, guys would kiss guys, because of the
laws against gays. And other issues of the day, of course.
One evening, she was out at night with two black friends and
the police drove over to "talk with them." My wife was
ignorant at the time of just what it means to not trust
police or legal systems. She lived with "white privilege"
but didn't realize it. So when the police came over to
hassle her friends, she had no idea just how fearful they
really were. They litterally groveled. And my wife was mad,
she was thinking "Come on! Don't act like a black toady!
Face them with pride!" She had no idea what it was like to
know that an aunt was dead because of facing down a policeman
without groveling. She had no idea what it was like to know
that not one, not two, but say five or six close relatives
were now dead and buried because of not groveling. She lived
with white privilege. A feeling of justice, knowing that in
some vague way the court systems and police would somehow in
the end not kill you or torture you. But blacks didn't know
that. In fact, they knew the opposite. It would be in all
their recent memories, some close family member who had died
for just being in the wrong place or acting with an
assumption that they had 'rights' -- that some police would
then make sure they realized they didn't actually have.

She grew to understand all this as those relationships grew
and she got to know a little bit better what it was like to
be black in that time and place. We are lucky today that
many black children may not actually know a close family
member killed in such ways and that this memory is now fading
.... though it isn't something to ignore as yet since there
remain many sources of racism in the US today and it remains
a presence in all their lives... the job situation is only
one earmark... the prison situation another... and so on. But
at least the sheer lethality of it has diminished.

Oregon's governor in 1926 was an active member of the KKK and
in 1926 the last known case of a black lynching took place in
Oregon, just to put a fine point on it. Even out here in the
west it's not that long ago and it was nothing here like it
was in the south east. Oregon didn't see a significant black
population until WW II, when they were brought in as laborers
to build ships in the docks here.

We whites live with a hidden sense of privilege and we aren't
really aware, so much, of how long we've had it "good" in
this country, how difficult it is to create a legal system
that is worthy of being trusted when there isn't one before,
and how little it takes to break that trust and crush it.

The weight of a trillion dollar business in the US, the
illicit drug industry here, weighs down hard on the legal
system. It buys police. It buys judges. I can tell you
specific cases, in Congressional Record by the way, where
entire barges of drugs would be brought into a dock at night,
cut up and taken to different storage facilities under the
watch of the police all along the way, cut up and sold in the
market and protected by a cadre of judges also bought and
paid for. I'm not talking about 5 or 6 people. I'm talking
about hundreds of police and hundreds of judges in this one
system that was discussed in open hearings. It was a
business machine that corrupted every thing around it. And
that corruption affected everyone.

A trillion dollars a year, Joerg. Imagine what that buys and
corrupts. Not to mention the fact that the US incarcerates a
higher percentage of its population than any other place:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate

The cost on society isn't just all the money. You have no
idea, it appears, just what these numbers mean... just how
deeply all this pervades everything here and all the lives of
us. Unlike some drugged out person you talk about, I'm
talking about this affecting the lives of all of us -- 100%
of us. Not one out of a million or one out of a hundred
thousand. Every single one of us is paying every single day.
And in many cases, we are talking about life and death and
the unjust taking of so many lives... and not just those
trillion dollars of direct purchases. The indirect costs are
immense and affect all of us every day.

Alcohol being illegal here in the US literally created the
Mafia in the US. Literally. And it killed lots and lots of
people. Ultimately, despite the benefits from having alcohol
illegal, people in the US finally had their belly-full of
murder and mayhem and corrupt police and corrupt judges and
changed the laws. And we live with the costs of alcoholism
because we aren't willing to return to the other condition,
which was worse.

What we haven't yet grappled with, what YOU haven't yet
grappled with, is that the drug war has similar costs and
creates similar "businesses" like the Mafia and funds them
fully. Just as with alcohol, there will be costs of
legalization. But the vast and powerful funding of illicit
drugs in the US is killing tens of thousands of people in
Mexico, killing people in the US, too. And it is a continual
corrupting influence on ALL OF OUR GOV'T systems. ALL of
them. If infects everything. And it leads to huge costs of
incarceration and the highest rates of it in the world.

I know you don't like high taxes. One good way to help
reduce that burden is to stop this insane war. One in five
of every prisoner in a State system is there for drug use.
One half of all those in the federal system.... And for
example, in the first 5 years after the Anti_drug Abuse Act
was passed, from 1986 and 1991, just the incarceration of
black women alone, in state prisons for drug offenses only,
increased nearly 9-fold. These are just women, Joerg. Not
hardened murders like Felix Rodriguez who reported to Donald
Gregg, senior advisor to George Bush as VP back then.

This whole thing is insane. And if you care about where your
tax money goes, ... well, you'd want it changed. It's a
waste of money and resources, it corrupts everything it
touches and that includes our police and legal system, and
the costs are immense.

And just as you make this personal, by telling of a few
people you personally know.... I can make this just as
personal, too. Lives I've personally seen destroyed not by
drugs at all but crushed under the war machine that exists on
both sides now -- a well funded machine.

And there is more. My daughter suffers from grand mal
seizures. Just about had one today and I spent a large part
of it holding her and helping her get through the risk. We
have tried nearly every viable drug for controlling these
seizures over the last 14 years. Many of them have serious
side effects, such as significant enhancement of tooth and
gum decay, listlessness and lack of life during the day,
liver and kidney damage that can be measured by the year,
profound and difficult personality changes, and other medical
risks. Some years ago, our neurologist decided to have us
try marijuana under the OMMP program and we measured the
impact (we keep daily records.) It was promising. We went
off of it, while trying still other drugs for a few years
since. We've only just started returning to marijuana
perhaps 6 months ago under the OMMP program in Oregon, when
her seizures increased to a rate of one every 6-8 days. Over
the last six months, we've experienced three seizure events.
It was a sudden and dramatic reduction and we are as certain
as one can be under the circumstances.

I cannot tell you how important this is in our lives. It
affects everything about our ability to cope and deal with
her seizures. And her personality has bloomed, as well. She
is drawing pictures every day, attempting to talk more with
us, and able to cope much better with the sounds that she is
so sensitive to during each day (bird calls outside can drive
her nuts, but do so much less now, for example.)

Time will tell us more. We are doing this entirely under the
control of both our neurologist and our general practitioner
-- the first we've been working with since 2003 (8 years now)
and the 2nd has been her doctor for almost 20 years. They
know our situation as well as any professionals may. And
they were taking care of her and trying to help us for many
years before we decided to try this, so it's not only our own
judgments here. It's the opinion of well trained
professionals who have had long experience with our
particular case and know where we have been over the years.

You may not appreciate just what this means. Our daughter
broke six teeth in one event over the bathtub. Just one
event. There were many others where she broke more in
differing situations. She broke both her radius and ulna in
another seizure. Clean through. She trapped an electric
heater between her legs in another and in the few seconds it
took for one of us to run down the hallway to get to her
room, she suffered 3rd degree burns to her inner thighs. She
will eventually die in one of these.. perhaps by falling
through some plate glass.. perhaps by falling at the top of
some stairway in some random moment we aren't immediately
present and can grab her. Something will get her. And the
more frequent the seizures, the more potential for that event
happening sooner than later.

It makes a HUGE difference. And so far, it is the very best
impact we've seen on her seizures. Others may have other
experiences. But in her case, there is no longer much
question that we are unaware of anything close to as good.
And we've been through every appropriate drug on the list
(large chart, large list, some not appropriate, but all
appropriate ones tried by now.)

There _are_ medical uses. But we are at risk every single
day because the Fed's consider it a crime. We are at risk
every day because someone may decide to invade our home
because of the black market. We are at risk for no good
reason. Our doctors are monitoring our use, we keep daily
records, and our federal system refuses to lower the
classification so that properly compounded and controlled
quantities can be prepared and used under medical
supervision.

There are many sides. You don't have to believe or agree
with any one part of it, but I think you need to understand
that there is much damage done by an industry that is illegal
and due to the huge moneys involved extremely corrupting at a
variety of levels. (There is a set of Congressional
testimony available in the Congressional Record, if you like,
that would scare most people because of how pervasive and
sweeping these effects were found to be during the Kerry
'drug hearings' in the late 1980's.) And it is very personal
to me, as well, as it places my family at personal and
continual risk and prevents my doctors from doing their job
as they should be able to do it.

It means something to me. One day, some time back, my wife
and I got to do one of the few 'dates' (maybe two a year, if
we are lucky?) where we got to go together to the grocery
store for some shopping and holding hands together. My
oldest son stayed back to watch Athena. When we arrived back
home, gone no longer than an hour, Becky wouldn't get out of
the car. She just sat there. I said, "What's up?" She
said, "You go in, see if she is still alive, and let me
know."

That's what our life is like, Joerg. And we now have
something that materially impacts that in our lives. You
know me. I'm telling you. You need to understand the
difference this makes in OUR lives, as well. Perhaps you
need to hear a different story from someone else you know so
that you can balance this a little better?

It's not just a little bit personal, Joerg. Just so you
know.

Jon, I don't have anything against a (very carefully) prescribed medical
use.
Click to expand...
But it's NOT carefully prescribed. Sadly. Our stupid legal
system doesn't permit that. Instead, the stupid way our
system has to work right now is that a doctor "authorizes" me
to grow the stuff. I don't have the tools to verify what I'm
making, nor the training. I have no idea exactly what I'm
giving my daughter. Because it is illegal, still, for
doctors to prescribe it. It is a Schedule 1 drug:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Schedule_I_drugs_%28US%29

In order for it to be placed there, it must be the case that:

1. The drug or other substance has a high potential
for abuse.
2. The drug or other substance has no currently
accepted medical use in treatment in the United
States.
3. There is a lack of accepted safety for use of the
drug or other substance under medical supervision.

However, 2 is wrong in the case of marijuana. The word
"accepted" is twisted in its meaning, no viable research is
even permitted here, and the clause excludes any data
garnered elsewhere in the world. The whole system is closed
so that they can maintain the facade. Only one location in
the US is permitted to grow for research and no research
actually occurs -- there is a court case right now from a
large university suing the gov't so that they can gain access
for legitimate research purposes. And today, with more than
a dozen states with medical marijuana laws, there is hardly a
more important time than now for that research to take place.

My doctors cannot prescribe it. There is no legal source of
it where the quantities are analyzed and compounded
accurately and probably no illegal source, either. And the
laws don't put the medical professional at risk -- instead,
they just say the doctor can write a piece of paper that says
they believe it would be appropriate, if _I_ decide to act.
And then the State laws are arranged so that the State laws
can't incarcerate me if I am acting in accordance with State
laws in growing it.

But I've no idea what I'm giving her. I can't record the
chemical quantities. I can't document them. I don't know
what next week will be like vs this last week. And there is
no one I can go to to produce this information, to help my
doctors develop a track record of information that may help
others or help better guide the situation for my daughter.

We are operating in the dark, Joerg.

And it is disgusting.

And I am sure it is a very valuable medicine in your daughter's
case because only parents can really tell what works and what doesn't.
Click to expand...
I'm always conscious of the possibility of biases, known and
unknown, and I worry a lot about whether or not I'm trying to
convince myself of something. As parents, we really _are_
desperate. And it is easy to imagine something existing
where nothing really is there. Hope and despair can make you
do things, make you believe things. Which is why we keep
daily records. It's not just for her or her doctors. It's
for us, to observe ourselves. To watch and see what the
details _actually_ say, and not what our poor memories try
and tell us. We go back through the records periodically and
plot the events, etc. It helps us a lot.

I have to say I'm increasingly convinced in this case. So
far, anyway.

I just wish I knew what I was giving her. I don't. And my
doctors would _like_ to be able to prescribe dosages. But
they can't. And they can't even help me. To do that would
put them at risk. All they can do is say "okay" so that the
State of Oregon doesn't put me away for trying to help my
daughter suffer a little less.

This is a bastard of a legal system, Joerg. I hate what all
this has done and forced ME to do. Do you have any idea!?

You have stories of others. I have a personal story. One
that I live each and every single day. As I said, this is
personal to me, Joerg. Not vague. Not distant. Not someone
else's life. It's my every single day.

There are lots of other drugs that are regularly used as hallucinogens
illegally but have very legitimate med uses, such as Oxycontin. If a
medical doctor and not some self-declared "practitioner" prescribes it,
by all means. What I do not like and am squarely against is this: There
was a pot fest somewhere near here. TV came, interviews. "Oh, the fenced
in area is so people can get high" ... "But you need a medical
permission to get in there, right?" ... "Oh, yeah, if you don't have one
yet you go over there, talk to the people and then get it. Doesn't take
long". That makes me sick.
Click to expand...
I can't help the twisted, bizarre world that is created by
these insane laws. I know the pictures you are talking
about. But this system is insane, right now. One one side
we have a federal legal system that states that there is NO
MEDICAL USE of marijuana. Yet that is a lie. There is. And
there are a large and growing number of doctors who are
willing to stand in and monitor the situation and act as they
do with other legal drugs. But they aren't permitted to do
so, because it is insanely put on Schedule I.

Reschedule it. That would help me, immediately. I don't
care about the rest, really. But this placement on Schedule
I is a consdtant reminder and monument to the insanity of all
this. The stuff is fairly safe -- far, far safer than many
of the drugs (legal) that we gave our daughter before. In
some cases, we are asked to check her liver and kidneys every
3 months! Can you believe it?

As long as it remains on Schedule I, there is nothing my
doctors can do. It's that simple.

Now, in terms of my opinion? I'm not at all mad that some
folks are _using_ the silly laws in California to get high on
marijuana. Frankly, I think the stuff is about as safe, and
I'm speaking only about the chemistry here, as drugs get. I
don't much care if a few stoners use the laws and flaunt
their smoking. I don't care, actually. Because I don't
think they are hurting themselves. The stuff is safe. So,
so what? So they make you mad because they are getting what
they want and flaunting it under some policeman's nose. I'd
rather it were just legalized and then who would care? It
would be like me drinking a shot of scotch in front of you
(only less harmful, I suspect.) You wouldn't have a right to
care.

But while I politically believe it should be legalized, as a
matter of taking care of my daughter and performing my legal
guardianship responsibilities, I care most immediately about
rescheduling it so that our team of doctors can do their job.
Get that much done and some insanity disappears. I might
still be put at risk of someone invading my home and killing
us to gain access to legally prescribed medications, so long
as it remains an illicit drug. But at least rescheduling
means I can get proper compounds, my medical team can do a
proper job of adjusting dosages through experience, and the
quantites I have around here don't need to last a year at a
time. Which means LESS risk to my life, less need for hand
guns (if you saw an earlier post of mine, you know I carry
one) around here and less need of my regular training in
using them well and correctly.

Do you imagine I _like_ being in this position of being
prepared for an invasion and a shoot out? Or what risk that
places all of us at, should the police come here for entirely
different reasons (say, chasing some criminal through
backyards and coming to our property only to find plants
being grown and me carrying a weapon as a side arm?) I'm not
only at risk by criminals, but my own police may be
frightened into killing me on sight just to protect
themselves.

This is insane, Joerg. Insane. I just want my daughter to
suffer less. My medical team wants to help. The laws are
insane.

And _you_ are bothered by a few stoners sticking it up your
nose that they get to smoke some pot in front of you without
getting arrested?

Live my life for a few months. You'd change your priorities.

But what really made me sad was what I saw while living in the
Netherlands. You, promising people. Then one day I met them again and
their brain was fried, permanently. Some could only babble, some could
not talk at all anymore.
Click to expand...
That more likely was due to poisons because there is no
oversight of illegal drugs, no control over their
compounding, and it is easy to substitute poisons.

Jon
 
Jon Kirwan wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 07:28:52 -0700, Joerg
invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Jon Kirwan wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:02:05 -0700, Joerg
invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

snip
And that's exactly the problem. Dealers want to make money so they mix a
teaser drug into soft drugs and ... kaboom, brain's almost fried. This
is how a guy whom I knew died. Several others are permanently mentally
disabled, and very seriously.
But Joerg, that isn't the only side. There are so many
others, as well. Just to add some balance, I'll talk about a
few.

The near trillion dollar a year business bribes everyone in
our gov't systems. Corrupt police, corrupt judges, corrupt
politicians, and a great deal of violence as well because
there is no court system that can be used to adjudicate
disputes. (So folks take 'justice' into their own hands, as
there is no other option except walking away.)

The destruction caused to society is profound and spreads
across every part of it. Our own US gov't was involved in
transporting cocaine into the US under the Reagan/Bush
administration as part of a larger plan to circumvent the
Boland amendments. It was horrible what that did in our
society. (If you need some names to look up, check up on
Donald Gregg, the senior advisor to G Bush sr and a daily
advisor to him; and Felix Rodriguez who met regularly with
Donald ... as just a very tiny sampling.)

We _must_ be able to trust our police and judicial system, if
it is to function well for all of us. You don't mention any
of this. And it is a cost that is both personal to those who
are dealt injustices by it as well as general.
Trust, yes, but one must remain watchful. I had an experience a few days
ago that was disappointing. Called 911 because someone left two large
dogs in a small car in the full sun. When the driver didn't return after
10mins and the dogs started to obviously suffer I called. The deputy
came and qizzed me. How I could come to the conclusion that they suffer
and so on. WHAT?

I mean in a general sense. What "makes a functioning gov't"
has a great deal to do with trust. We "trust" that when we
go to court, that we have at least _some_ chance of justice.
We don't expect perfection. We don't expect a great deal, in
fact... we know there are uncontrollable factors. But we
_choose_ to allow a legal system to prosecute the man who
raped our daughter, for example, rather than go over and take
matters into our own hands because .... although we don't
actually believe what we _want_ will be the result, we do
accept that we have to trust in a system that on balance is
better than the alternative -- complete anarchy.
Click to expand...
I forgot to mention one "minor" detail. When I called 911 I got a
message that all operators are busy. Then it rang but plopped back to
the busy tape. Almost hung up until finally someone picked up. That
reminded me of a 911-recording from somewhere in the south-east, went
something like this: "Sir, I understand and we'll do our best but right
now all officers are busy" ... *POW* .. *POP* ... "Sir, what was that?"
.... "Well, now it's only one intruder instead of two" ... "We'll have
someone right there!"


This is what is so difficult to create in places like Iraq,
for example. You start with a situation where some groups do
not trust other groups, at all. The legal system, if run
mostly by one side, is not at all trusted by the other side.
So they don't go to court, because they have zero faith in
it. Not 100% faith -- no one asks for that or demands it.
But 0% faith. So, because there is no redress and no belief
in even the possibility of it, people instead are "forced" by
that belief to choose among what few alternatives they feel
exist -- generally speaking, violence and mayhem, or else
walking away with hatred in their hearts and no chance or
hope for redress. If it happens at all, it will take a long
time to build those bridges. There will need to be actual
evidence that groups in control make decisions that go
against their own groups' interests enough times and in
enough difficult situations that _evidence_ exists that there
is some chance for justice. Time. Time. And hopefully in
the interim, nothing that lights off another series of
violence.

Trust is rarely given away and usually only won slowly and
over time and given evidence during times where it is proven
out. It takes only a few minutes to destroy. One must
protect it like the flame of a candle in the wind, once you
have it.

We don't often, as US citizens born in a place that is often
so far from such places as Iraq, realize just how hard it was
to build up our legal system. And it didn't just start here,
either. And we don't realize what life might be like without
trusting it. At least a little bit.

For those born black, those older now at least, they do know
what I'm talking about because they DIDN'T trust the police
or the legal system to provide that measure of justice. It's
part of why the Black Panthers were started. (I know a
little something about this and specific events in Chicago
over the years, since my wife was an active part of this bit
of history when she was younger.) It's part of why they
would try and take themselves (unarmed, of course, but in a
special uniform that would be recognized) and cameras into
the streets when a policeman was seen in their neighborhoods.
Did you know that Leonard Bernstein (yes, the composer and
conductor guy) supported the actively?

Short story. My wife was all 'gung ho' about challenging the
"powers that be" at the time. Demonstrations of various
kinds -- for example, a "kiss in" in a public park where
girls would kiss girls, guys would kiss guys, because of the
laws against gays. And other issues of the day, of course.
One evening, she was out at night with two black friends and
the police drove over to "talk with them." My wife was
ignorant at the time of just what it means to not trust
police or legal systems. She lived with "white privilege"
but didn't realize it. So when the police came over to
hassle her friends, she had no idea just how fearful they
really were. They litterally groveled. And my wife was mad,
she was thinking "Come on! Don't act like a black toady!
Face them with pride!" She had no idea what it was like to
know that an aunt was dead because of facing down a policeman
without groveling. She had no idea what it was like to know
that not one, not two, but say five or six close relatives
were now dead and buried because of not groveling. She lived
with white privilege. A feeling of justice, knowing that in
some vague way the court systems and police would somehow in
the end not kill you or torture you. But blacks didn't know
that. In fact, they knew the opposite. It would be in all
their recent memories, some close family member who had died
for just being in the wrong place or acting with an
assumption that they had 'rights' -- that some police would
then make sure they realized they didn't actually have.

She grew to understand all this as those relationships grew
and she got to know a little bit better what it was like to
be black in that time and place. We are lucky today that
many black children may not actually know a close family
member killed in such ways and that this memory is now fading
... though it isn't something to ignore as yet since there
remain many sources of racism in the US today and it remains
a presence in all their lives... the job situation is only
one earmark... the prison situation another... and so on. But
at least the sheer lethality of it has diminished.

Oregon's governor in 1926 was an active member of the KKK and
in 1926 the last known case of a black lynching took place in
Oregon, just to put a fine point on it. Even out here in the
west it's not that long ago and it was nothing here like it
was in the south east. Oregon didn't see a significant black
population until WW II, when they were brought in as laborers
to build ships in the docks here.

We whites live with a hidden sense of privilege and we aren't
really aware, so much, of how long we've had it "good" in
this country, how difficult it is to create a legal system
that is worthy of being trusted when there isn't one before,
and how little it takes to break that trust and crush it.

The weight of a trillion dollar business in the US, the
illicit drug industry here, weighs down hard on the legal
system. It buys police. It buys judges. I can tell you
specific cases, in Congressional Record by the way, where
entire barges of drugs would be brought into a dock at night,
cut up and taken to different storage facilities under the
watch of the police all along the way, cut up and sold in the
market and protected by a cadre of judges also bought and
paid for. I'm not talking about 5 or 6 people. I'm talking
about hundreds of police and hundreds of judges in this one
system that was discussed in open hearings. It was a
business machine that corrupted every thing around it. And
that corruption affected everyone.
Click to expand...
That is scary. If it's in congressional records, why does no news media
outlet go after it?


A trillion dollars a year, Joerg. Imagine what that buys and
corrupts. Not to mention the fact that the US incarcerates a
higher percentage of its population than any other place:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_incarceration_rate
Click to expand...
I know. That has always saddend me, we lock up 10x the amount of people.
It's not normal. With the emphasis on locking up and not rehabilitation.
It seems that unions are driving this to a large extent. Means job
security and union dues. It becomes rather obvious when taking a look at
the "donor" list on scare propositions.


The cost on society isn't just all the money. You have no
idea, it appears, just what these numbers mean... just how
deeply all this pervades everything here and all the lives of
us. Unlike some drugged out person you talk about, I'm
talking about this affecting the lives of all of us -- 100%
of us. Not one out of a million or one out of a hundred
thousand. Every single one of us is paying every single day.
And in many cases, we are talking about life and death and
the unjust taking of so many lives... and not just those
trillion dollars of direct purchases. The indirect costs are
immense and affect all of us every day.

Alcohol being illegal here in the US literally created the
Mafia in the US. Literally. And it killed lots and lots of
people. Ultimately, despite the benefits from having alcohol
illegal, people in the US finally had their belly-full of
murder and mayhem and corrupt police and corrupt judges and
changed the laws. And we live with the costs of alcoholism
because we aren't willing to return to the other condition,
which was worse.

What we haven't yet grappled with, what YOU haven't yet
grappled with, is that the drug war has similar costs and
creates similar "businesses" like the Mafia and funds them
fully. Just as with alcohol, there will be costs of
legalization. But the vast and powerful funding of illicit
drugs in the US is killing tens of thousands of people in
Mexico, killing people in the US, too. And it is a continual
corrupting influence on ALL OF OUR GOV'T systems. ALL of
them. If infects everything. And it leads to huge costs of
incarceration and the highest rates of it in the world.
Click to expand...
There is a major difference here. Alcohol is a drug that mankind very
slowly got used to, starting thousands of years ago. In South America
the same is true for certains drugs, they have gradually learned how to
use them in moderation way before any European set foot onto that
continent. Europe and the US, not so at all. Drugs showed up on main
street with a bang, after WW-II. And that was immediately abused by
crooks. I believe that's what resulted in all the problems with it. Then
some countries such as the Netherlands tried to handle it in the most
liberal way possible. It was a disaster. Now they appear to (finally!)
learn that unfettered availability is not a good thing. It may be a bit
too late but I sure hope it isn't.


I know you don't like high taxes. One good way to help
reduce that burden is to stop this insane war. One in five
of every prisoner in a State system is there for drug use.
One half of all those in the federal system.... And for
example, in the first 5 years after the Anti_drug Abuse Act
was passed, from 1986 and 1991, just the incarceration of
black women alone, in state prisons for drug offenses only,
increased nearly 9-fold. These are just women, Joerg. ...
Click to expand...

I agree that it is wrong to incarcerate addicts. That will not help them
re-integrate. But to break that cycle one has to break another
stranglehold and Wisconsin has shown how difficult that can be. Just
look at how things such as the three-strikes law came about, who
bankrolled the campaigns, the scare ads on TV, and all that. That law
alone let CA's prison population balloon, big time.


... Not
hardened murders like Felix Rodriguez who reported to Donald
Gregg, senior advisor to George Bush as VP back then.

This whole thing is insane. And if you care about where your
tax money goes, ... well, you'd want it changed. It's a
waste of money and resources, it corrupts everything it
touches and that includes our police and legal system, and
the costs are immense.

And just as you make this personal, by telling of a few
people you personally know.... I can make this just as
personal, too. Lives I've personally seen destroyed not by
drugs at all but crushed under the war machine that exists on
both sides now -- a well funded machine.
Click to expand...
But it is easy to avoid the drug war machine crushing: Stay out of it. I
chose to do that way back when I was a kid, never touched that stuff.

[...]

Jon, I don't have anything against a (very carefully) prescribed medical
use.

But it's NOT carefully prescribed. Sadly. Our stupid legal
system doesn't permit that. Instead, the stupid way our
system has to work right now is that a doctor "authorizes" me
to grow the stuff. I don't have the tools to verify what I'm
making, nor the training. I have no idea exactly what I'm
giving my daughter. Because it is illegal, still, for
doctors to prescribe it. It is a Schedule 1 drug:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Schedule_I_drugs_%28US%29

In order for it to be placed there, it must be the case that:

1. The drug or other substance has a high potential
for abuse.
2. The drug or other substance has no currently
accepted medical use in treatment in the United
States.
3. There is a lack of accepted safety for use of the
drug or other substance under medical supervision.

However, 2 is wrong in the case of marijuana. The word
"accepted" is twisted in its meaning, no viable research is
even permitted here, and the clause excludes any data
garnered elsewhere in the world. The whole system is closed
so that they can maintain the facade. Only one location in
the US is permitted to grow for research and no research
actually occurs -- there is a court case right now from a
large university suing the gov't so that they can gain access
for legitimate research purposes. And today, with more than
a dozen states with medical marijuana laws, there is hardly a
more important time than now for that research to take place.

My doctors cannot prescribe it. There is no legal source of
it where the quantities are analyzed and compounded
accurately and probably no illegal source, either. And the
laws don't put the medical professional at risk -- instead,
they just say the doctor can write a piece of paper that says
they believe it would be appropriate, if _I_ decide to act.
And then the State laws are arranged so that the State laws
can't incarcerate me if I am acting in accordance with State
laws in growing it.

But I've no idea what I'm giving her. I can't record the
chemical quantities. I can't document them. I don't know
what next week will be like vs this last week. And there is
no one I can go to to produce this information, to help my
doctors develop a track record of information that may help
others or help better guide the situation for my daughter.

We are operating in the dark, Joerg.

And it is disgusting.
Click to expand...
Sure, per federal law it probably isn't legal. Oregon state laws is
different AFAIK. Why are there dispensary lists for Oregon if you can't
legally buy it there?


And I am sure it is a very valuable medicine in your daughter's
case because only parents can really tell what works and what doesn't.

I'm always conscious of the possibility of biases, known and
unknown, and I worry a lot about whether or not I'm trying to
convince myself of something. As parents, we really _are_
desperate. And it is easy to imagine something existing
where nothing really is there. Hope and despair can make you
do things, make you believe things. Which is why we keep
daily records. It's not just for her or her doctors. It's
for us, to observe ourselves. To watch and see what the
details _actually_ say, and not what our poor memories try
and tell us. We go back through the records periodically and
plot the events, etc. It helps us a lot.

I have to say I'm increasingly convinced in this case. So
far, anyway.

I just wish I knew what I was giving her. I don't. And my
doctors would _like_ to be able to prescribe dosages. But
they can't. And they can't even help me. To do that would
put them at risk. All they can do is say "okay" so that the
State of Oregon doesn't put me away for trying to help my
daughter suffer a little less.

This is a bastard of a legal system, Joerg. I hate what all
this has done and forced ME to do. Do you have any idea!?

You have stories of others. I have a personal story. One
that I live each and every single day. As I said, this is
personal to me, Joerg. Not vague. Not distant. Not someone
else's life. It's my every single day.
Click to expand...
Yes, very understandable. I think there can be a proper use of some
drugs but it would require not just state law but also a federal law
that allows it. As for personal stories the saddest one of mine ended in
1982. Because this person died, from drugs :-(


There are lots of other drugs that are regularly used as hallucinogens
illegally but have very legitimate med uses, such as Oxycontin. If a
medical doctor and not some self-declared "practitioner" prescribes it,
by all means. What I do not like and am squarely against is this: There
was a pot fest somewhere near here. TV came, interviews. "Oh, the fenced
in area is so people can get high" ... "But you need a medical
permission to get in there, right?" ... "Oh, yeah, if you don't have one
yet you go over there, talk to the people and then get it. Doesn't take
long". That makes me sick.

I can't help the twisted, bizarre world that is created by
these insane laws. I know the pictures you are talking
about. But this system is insane, right now. One one side
we have a federal legal system that states that there is NO
MEDICAL USE of marijuana. Yet that is a lie. There is. And
there are a large and growing number of doctors who are
willing to stand in and monitor the situation and act as they
do with other legal drugs. But they aren't permitted to do
so, because it is insanely put on Schedule I.

Reschedule it. That would help me, immediately. I don't
care about the rest, really. But this placement on Schedule
I is a consdtant reminder and monument to the insanity of all
this. The stuff is fairly safe -- far, far safer than many
of the drugs (legal) that we gave our daughter before. In
some cases, we are asked to check her liver and kidneys every
3 months! Can you believe it?

As long as it remains on Schedule I, there is nothing my
doctors can do. It's that simple.

Now, in terms of my opinion? I'm not at all mad that some
folks are _using_ the silly laws in California to get high on
marijuana. Frankly, I think the stuff is about as safe, and
I'm speaking only about the chemistry here, as drugs get. I
don't much care if a few stoners use the laws and flaunt
their smoking. I don't care, actually. Because I don't
think they are hurting themselves. The stuff is safe. So,
so what? So they make you mad because they are getting what
they want and flaunting it under some policeman's nose. I'd
rather it were just legalized and then who would care? It
would be like me drinking a shot of scotch in front of you
(only less harmful, I suspect.) You wouldn't have a right to
care.

But while I politically believe it should be legalized, as a
matter of taking care of my daughter and performing my legal
guardianship responsibilities, I care most immediately about
rescheduling it so that our team of doctors can do their job.
Get that much done and some insanity disappears. I might
still be put at risk of someone invading my home and killing
us to gain access to legally prescribed medications, so long
as it remains an illicit drug. But at least rescheduling
means I can get proper compounds, my medical team can do a
proper job of adjusting dosages through experience, and the
quantites I have around here don't need to last a year at a
time. Which means LESS risk to my life, less need for hand
guns (if you saw an earlier post of mine, you know I carry
one) around here and less need of my regular training in
using them well and correctly.

Do you imagine I _like_ being in this position of being
prepared for an invasion and a shoot out? Or what risk that
places all of us at, should the police come here for entirely
different reasons (say, chasing some criminal through
backyards and coming to our property only to find plants
being grown and me carrying a weapon as a side arm?) I'm not
only at risk by criminals, but my own police may be
frightened into killing me on sight just to protect
themselves.

This is insane, Joerg. Insane. I just want my daughter to
suffer less. My medical team wants to help. The laws are
insane.

And _you_ are bothered by a few stoners sticking it up your
nose that they get to smoke some pot in front of you without
getting arrested?
Click to expand...
I am bothered by two things:

a. By the people I have seen being wasted by drugs while linving in the
Netherlands. The ones that died weren't even the worst off, though their
siblings and parents sure were. The ones that only almost died grieve me
the most. Many of them had to essentially go on living almost as a
vegetable for another 40-50 years.

b. By interviews like the one I mentioned above. You haven't commented
on that but to me it's sickening that people can get a "permit" to use
drugs without any proper medical examination. When the interviewer asked
the guy what his medical condition was he kind of fumbled, then came up
with "headaches". Yeah. And then the camera swung to the "in crowd
behind the fence where an enormous plume of smoke orginated from. Many
were in some sort of a stupor already. _That_ needs to be not happening
anymore and folks who advocate medical use (which I don't question)
should direct some of their initiatives and energy to help fix that. It
creates the wrong image in lawmakers, in the public eye. It spoils the
chances for all true medical users.


Live my life for a few months. You'd change your priorities.

But what really made me sad was what I saw while living in the
Netherlands. You, promising people. Then one day I met them again and
their brain was fried, permanently. Some could only babble, some could
not talk at all anymore.

That more likely was due to poisons because there is no
oversight of illegal drugs, no control over their
compounding, and it is easy to substitute poisons.
Click to expand...
Either that or overdoses. But the fact is, I crossed the border every
day and on the other side of it you did not see those problems.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 18:28:35 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:55:48 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:04:19 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:20:32 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
[...]

It's still better to not saturate them. Even a simple b-c schottky
makes a world of difference. I think I drove my test samples with
74ACxx logic, series resistor, || a few pF, Vdd=+5v.

74AC is too slow for my case. How did you keep it out of saturation? The
old Schottky Baker clamp usually doesn't work on those. A two-diode
Baker makes it all sluggish, too much total inductance in the drive.
A 74ACT octal buffer makes a damned fine high-speed output driver or
fet gate driver. Use 4 or better all 8 sections in parallel.

Can it rival the NL37 series? The advantage would be that those come in
octals. In the old days I have sometimes soldered several on top of each
other but only in experiments. I know that was naughty but it did drive
the big pulser (the super expensive lab grade driver box had croaked).
It was 74AC though.

They are almost as fast as NL37s, sub-ns, but have the advantage that
they are "ttl" compatible. If you power an NL from, say, 6.5 volts and
drive the input from 3.3 or even 5 volt logic, they can really get
hot.

Plus, you get 8 in a can.


Ok, that almost sounds like a deal. Being a bit slower can be made up by
more drive gusto. Eight means more amps than three. Just like the old
muscle car wisdom, cubic inches cannot be replaced by anthing, except by
more cubic-inches :)

"Nothing displaces displacement"
Click to expand...
The classical muscle-car motto is, "there is no replacement for displacement."

or, as the bikers say,

"74 cubes is 74 cubes."


John
Click to expand...
 
On 23 Aug., 11:36, Jon Kirwan <j...@infinitefactors.org> wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:02:05 -0700, Joerg

inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
snip
And that's exactly the problem. Dealers want to make money so they mix a
teaser drug into soft drugs and ... kaboom, brain's almost fried. This
is how a guy whom I knew died. Several others are permanently mentally
disabled, and very seriously.

But Joerg, that isn't the only side.  There are so many
others, as well.  Just to add some balance, I'll talk about a
few.

The near trillion dollar a year business bribes everyone in
our gov't systems.  Corrupt police, corrupt judges, corrupt
politicians, and a great deal of violence as well because
there is no court system that can be used to adjudicate
disputes.  (So folks take 'justice' into their own hands, as
there is no other option except walking away.)
Click to expand...
and I'm sure some of that trillion is spend lobbying to keep drugs
illegal
if drugs weren't illegal the profit would plummet

I'm also sure the police and those who run prisons can see a lot of
their
jobs in part depends on drugs being illegal

snip
Click to expand...


-Lasse
 
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 14:15:49 -0700 (PDT), "langwadt@fonz.dk"
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

On 23 Aug., 11:36, Jon Kirwan <j...@infinitefactors.org> wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:02:05 -0700, Joerg

inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
snip
And that's exactly the problem. Dealers want to make money so they mix a
teaser drug into soft drugs and ... kaboom, brain's almost fried. This
is how a guy whom I knew died. Several others are permanently mentally
disabled, and very seriously.

But Joerg, that isn't the only side.  There are so many
others, as well.  Just to add some balance, I'll talk about a
few.

The near trillion dollar a year business bribes everyone in
our gov't systems.  Corrupt police, corrupt judges, corrupt
politicians, and a great deal of violence as well because
there is no court system that can be used to adjudicate
disputes.  (So folks take 'justice' into their own hands, as
there is no other option except walking away.)


and I'm sure some of that trillion is spend lobbying to keep drugs
illegal if drugs weren't illegal the profit would plummet
Click to expand...
I do believe that's the case. I've little doubt that keeping
drugs illegal is an explicit goal -- even of some
governments. The US gov't, in fact, shipped in cocaine as
part of a way of bypassing the Boland amendments (which
deeply restricted spending in Central America) by the Reagan
administration (I don't blame Reagan so much as Bush, for
this.) They sold advanced weapons to Iran (Iran-Contra),
pillaged the banking system (savings and loan disaster) by
changing the banking laws and then using that change to
automate off-shore "loans", and then covertly brought in
cocaine as a 3rd leg of their funding schemes.

Business does the same thing. To extract mineral resources,
you need labor. To get labor cheaply, you need a dictator
and an army and that requires weaponry and funds for that.
Taxes alone just can't really cut it, so an illicit drug
trade (with wealthier countries that can pony up the cash)
supplements taxation and other means to supplying the
weapons. The dictator then also either directly or
indirectly supports the drug trade, since that is in part
funding them.

It's a racket. The drug money funds the weapons, the weapons
hold up dictatorships and oppression needed for extraction of
resources -- a very profitable business model. People are
simply an expendable commodity in all this. And laws are
made severe so that prices are high and anyone who complains
gets locked up or marginalized.

I'm also sure the police and those who run prisons can see a lot of
their jobs in part depends on drugs being illegal
Click to expand...
And the easy part of their jobs, as well. A marijuana stoner
is probably the most peaceful and easily managed prisoner you
could find. They are easy to arrest, too. They are easy
targets.

What a racket. And people in the US are just sheep to be
periodically sheered for it.

Jon
 
Bill Sloman wrote:
On Aug 24, 12:41 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
BillSlomanwrote:
On Aug 23, 1:05 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
BillSlomanwrote:
On Aug 23, 5:58 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
langw...@fonz.dk wrote:
On 22 Aug., 20:07, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Nico Coesel wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
On 08/22/2011 11:08 AM, Nico Coesel wrote:
Phil Hobbs<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
On 08/22/2011 01:03 AM, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 08/22/11 06:45, Joerg wrote:
I won't judge anyone who does that, that's not up to me. Personally I
would not do it because it is squarely against biblical teaching, and I
try to live by that.
Would that be the biblical teaching in favor of genocide, or witch-burning?
What you think is Christian is predominantly the interpretation and
ideology
of your chosen cultural group, with some ideas drawn from another stone-age
group; neither of which is informed by rational inquiry or material
realities.
Far from it. Properly, the Church is organized so that no one is
without supervision, precisely because all of us, ministers and laity
Keep on dreaming. Over here in NL and in Belgium there is a big
scandal going on concerning pedophiles in the church. There are dozens
of victims!
And its not limited to NL and Belgium:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/HOUSE+OF+HORROR%3B+100+set+to+sue+over+...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/53545205/Torture-Assassinations-Vaccine-Tri...
Right now its dinner time over here but I suddenly lost my appetite!
I'd certainly have had to be asleep to miss it, especially since it came
out in 2002 in the US. Nor is it limited to the Church--schoolteachers,
for instance, have a far worse record, at least over here.
As a Dutchman, if you really want something to turn your stomach, try
investigating the origins of all those trafficked slave women in the red
light district of Amsterdam. IIRC about 4 out of 5 were trafficked from
Russia and eastern Europe, and they suffer rape and worse, continually,
until they're too sick or too worn out to be worth anything any more.
Well, if you want to see unhappy women you should go to the red-light
district. However, your information is a bit outdated. Many laws and
regulations have been put in effect to minimize the possibility of
human trafficking and enslavement. It is very difficult to get a
permit to open a sex-club (aka massage salon). Even the well known
Yab-Yum has been closed down by the local authorities because there
where rumours the owners had ties with the criminal circuit.
Outdated? From what I have heard they have discovered a new source of
"revenue" and are now taxing the redlight districts:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9KMSBS81&show_article=1
it's a job/business, why shouldn't they pay tax like everyone else?
So we look the other way when the question regarding the residency
permit comes up?
Being a "sex worker" is a legitimate job in the Netherlands, and
people coming from those eastern European countries that are now part
of the recently extended European Union don't need any kind of
residency permit anyway.
You still need the Vergunning to Verblijf, just like I did. That's what
a Dutch couple that was here three weeks ago told me. They know that for
a fact because one of them is from the EU but not a Dutch citizen.
I doubt if you'd need it now. My wife and I both needed them in 1993
because we are Australian citizens, but one of my wife's English
colleagues who moved to the Netherlands at the same time didn't have
to bother.
Then you may have been in the country illegally :)

If we were, the the guys at the police station didn't seem to realise
it.

snip - responded to that bit earlier
Yeah, let's leave it at that. To me abortion is killing a human being,
plain and simple. Nobody can tell me "the child would have no future",
because it would have.

This is a point of view, but not one that is shared by the majority.
Trying to enforce your point of view does more damage than that
majority is prepared to tolerate. ...
Click to expand...

Nope. It may be the majority in your area, never been to Australia. It
is most certainly not the majority in our area. And that is a good thing.


... Jon Kirwan has elaborated the same argument vis-a-vis banning drugs.
Click to expand...
I certainly understand his concerns. On the other hand I really don't
want to ever see all the drug-caused damage again that I saw in NL.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 
krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 17:21:25 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:


On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 17:10:08 -0500, "krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:


On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 13:36:40 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:


krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 10:09:16 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:


krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:

On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 09:54:50 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:


John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 21 Aug 2011 07:14:47 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:


Bill Sloman wrote:

On Aug 21, 12:13 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Sat, 20 Aug 2011 18:27:00 -0700 (PDT),BillSloman



bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:

On Aug 21, 9:52 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

BillSlomanwrote:

On Aug 21, 12:17 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

BillSlomanwrote:

On 20/08/2011 3:34 AM, Joerg wrote:

BillSlomanwrote:

On 20/08/2011 2:46 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

143 lines of pompous bilge, none on the subject of fet drivers.

John Larkin loves posting about fet drivers - he can make implausible
claims about how fast and cheap his are, and pose as the expert
electronic engineer that he wants to be accepted as.


John posts actual scope plots. So when he says that a transition happens
in under one nanosecond and proves it with a scope plot I don't know
what you mean by "implausible". Just because some people or datasheets
say it can't be done does not mean it can't be done. Also, he can show
the proof in revenue Dollars.

Now if someone had the opposite sex of the 2N7002 or a PNP with 15V+ and
no "saturation hold" that would be great. The BSS84 and it's siblings
ain't that hot.

Have you tried any pfets?


I did try the BSS84 a few years ago and the results were not enthusing.



I haven't played much with pfets as really fast switches. Right, a
complement to the 2N7002, push-pull against a 7002, with the same
12-cent gate drivers, would be interesting, and might solve your
problem. Just ignore the shoot-through maybe.

I'll put that on my slow-day experiment list. All I need now is a slow
day.

Why doesn't somebody make p-channel gaasfets? The world wonders.


A gold-doped BJT would be nice as well. However, I have not seen any
commercially successful gold or otherwise doped PNP transistors. And I
guess there ain't no market to write home about so I won't hold my breath.

Hell, just some cheap NPN arrays would be really nice. I can get cheap FET
arrays but not bipolar, anymore. ...

Voila:

http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ds/FF/FFB3904.pdf

At around 50c not very cheap. If it needs to be cheaper you've got to
shop in Asia.

$.50 wouldn't make me too happy (FETs arrays I'm using are $.10) but I could
make it work. HOWEVER, "NPN Multi-Chip General Purpose Amplifier" says it
all.


Well, you didn't say monolithic :)



http://www.kexin.com.cn/pdf/KC846S.pdf

No useful specs.


That is normal with many Asian suppliers, got to get used to it and test
a lot for yourself. You can sometimes obtain additional data from them
but sometimes you'd have to be married to the CEO's cousin's daughter or
something like that.

"Test a lot?" What does that tell me? It went against my grain to use a
green LED (GaN) at 3.3V. "Because one works..." Well, at least if the next
lot doesn't work we'll know.


http://www.rohm.com/products/discrete/transistor/complex/#03

"Very small package with two transistors."


All those aren't fast though.

Me? I don't need fast. ;-)


Lucky you :)

Almost all my stuff is RF nowadays.

We buy modules for all that stuff. I wouldn't attempt it with the shoestring
capital budget we're on (we're down a scope and it doesn't appear that they're
going to even replace it).

Makes no sense. Equipment is cheap, and people are expensive.


You can't lay off a scope. ;-)

No, but you can lay on one, especially when you fall asleep at the helm!.
Click to expand...

Jamie
 
On Aug 24, 12:41 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
BillSlomanwrote:
On Aug 23, 1:05 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
BillSlomanwrote:
On Aug 23, 5:58 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
langw...@fonz.dk wrote:
On 22 Aug., 20:07, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Nico Coesel wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
On 08/22/2011 11:08 AM, Nico Coesel wrote:
Phil Hobbs<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net>  wrote:
On 08/22/2011 01:03 AM, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 08/22/11 06:45, Joerg wrote:
I won't judge anyone who does that, that's not up to me. Personally I
would not do it because it is squarely against biblical teaching, and I
try to live by that.
Would that be the biblical teaching in favor of genocide, or witch-burning?
What you think is Christian is predominantly the interpretation and
ideology
of your chosen cultural group, with some ideas drawn from another stone-age
group; neither of which is informed by rational inquiry or material
realities.
Far from it.  Properly, the Church is organized so that no one is
without supervision, precisely because all of us, ministers and laity
Keep on dreaming. Over here in NL and in Belgium there is a big
scandal going on concerning pedophiles in the church. There are dozens
of victims!
And its not limited to NL and Belgium:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/HOUSE+OF+HORROR%3B+100+set+to+sue+over+...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/53545205/Torture-Assassinations-Vaccine-Tri...
Right now its dinner time over here but I suddenly lost my appetite!
I'd certainly have had to be asleep to miss it, especially since it came
out in 2002 in the US.  Nor is it limited to the Church--schoolteachers,
for instance, have a far worse record, at least over here.
As a Dutchman, if you really want something to turn your stomach, try
investigating the origins of all those trafficked slave women in the red
light district of Amsterdam.  IIRC about 4 out of 5 were trafficked from
Russia and eastern Europe, and they suffer rape and worse, continually,
until they're too sick or too worn out to be worth anything any more.
Well, if you want to see unhappy women you should go to the red-light
district. However, your information is a bit outdated. Many laws and
regulations have been put in effect to minimize the possibility of
human trafficking and enslavement. It is very difficult to get a
permit to open a sex-club (aka massage salon). Even the well known
Yab-Yum has been closed down by the local authorities because there
where rumours the owners had ties with the criminal circuit.
Outdated? From what I have heard they have discovered a new source of
"revenue" and are now taxing the redlight districts:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9KMSBS81&show_article=1
it's a job/business, why shouldn't they pay tax like everyone else?
So we look the other way when the question regarding the residency
permit comes up?
Being a "sex worker" is a legitimate job in the Netherlands, and
people coming from those eastern European countries that are now part
of the recently extended European Union don't need any kind of
residency permit anyway.
You still need the Vergunning to Verblijf, just like I did. That's what
a Dutch couple that was here three weeks ago told me. They know that for
a fact because one of them is from the EU but not a Dutch citizen.

I doubt if you'd need it now. My wife and I both needed them in 1993
because we are Australian citizens, but one of my wife's English
colleagues who moved to the Netherlands at the same time didn't have
to bother.

Then you may have been in the country illegally :)
Click to expand...
If we were, the the guys at the police station didn't seem to realise
it.

snip - responded to that bit earlier

Yeah, let's leave it at that. To me abortion is killing a human being,
plain and simple. Nobody can tell me "the child would have no future",
because it would have.
Click to expand...
This is a point of view, but not one that is shared by the majority.
Trying to enforce your point of view does more damage than that
majority is prepared to tolerate. Jon Kirwan has elaborated the same
argument vis-a-vis banning drugs.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
 
Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Jon Kirwan wrote:
On Tue, 23 Aug 2011 07:28:52 -0700, Joerg
invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Jon Kirwan wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:02:05 -0700, Joerg
invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

snip
And that's exactly the problem. Dealers want to make money so they mix a
teaser drug into soft drugs and ... kaboom, brain's almost fried. This
is how a guy whom I knew died. Several others are permanently mentally
disabled, and very seriously.
But Joerg, that isn't the only side. There are so many
others, as well. Just to add some balance, I'll talk about a
few.

_choose_ to allow a legal system to prosecute the man who
raped our daughter, for example, rather than go over and take
matters into our own hands because .... although we don't
actually believe what we _want_ will be the result, we do
accept that we have to trust in a system that on balance is
better than the alternative -- complete anarchy.


I forgot to mention one "minor" detail. When I called 911 I got a
message that all operators are busy. Then it rang but plopped back to
the busy tape. Almost hung up until finally someone picked up. That
reminded me of a 911-recording from somewhere in the south-east, went
something like this: "Sir, I understand and we'll do our best but right
now all officers are busy" ... *POW* .. *POP* ... "Sir, what was that?"
... "Well, now it's only one intruder instead of two" ... "We'll have
someone right there!"
Click to expand...
:) The first (and hopefully last time) I had to call the emergency
number they first had to put me through. WTF? Get an ambulance over
her now! No time for endless questions about what had happened.

And _you_ are bothered by a few stoners sticking it up your
nose that they get to smoke some pot in front of you without
getting arrested?


I am bothered by two things:

a. By the people I have seen being wasted by drugs while linving in the
Netherlands. The ones that died weren't even the worst off, though their
siblings and parents sure were. The ones that only almost died grieve me
the most. Many of them had to essentially go on living almost as a
vegetable for another 40-50 years.
Click to expand...
I'd still like to emphasize that for some odd reason you ended up in a
place with a lot of drug abuse. No offense taken but I really don't
recognize the NL in the picture you are painting. OTOH it might be
that more people where experimenting with chemical drugs in the early
80's than now.

To put things into a better perspective: Alcohol is a much bigger
problem than other drugs. It is easier to get rid of a heroin
addiction than an alcohol addiction. The reason it is less visible is
because alcoholic beverages can be bought everywhere and no-one will
ask questions.

And there are also costs involved:
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Forbes/The5MostExpensiveAddictions.aspx

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------
 
On Wed, 24 Aug 2011 01:18:22 GMT, nico@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel) wrote:

Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

[snip]

:) The first (and hopefully last time) I had to call the emergency
number they first had to put me through. WTF? Get an ambulance over
her now! No time for endless questions about what had happened.
Click to expand...
If you choose to live in Californica, you'll die in Californica due to its
leftist ineptness.

[snip]

When my wife fell last year and crushed some vertebrae, it was around 2
minutes until the fire truck arrived, every man certified as a paramedic, with
apologies that it would be a couple of minutes for the ambulance... "it's
coming from 2 miles away". By the time they had tied her onto a back-board
the ambulance was there.

And, even in the Q45, it was a chore for me to keep up on the trip to the
hospital ;-) And I got to choose the hospital.

...Jim Thompson

[On the Road, in New York]
--
| James E.Thompson, CTO | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | |
| Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat |
| E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
On 08/23/11 19:58, Bill Sloman wrote:
abortion was entirely illegal
when I was a university student, but easily available from properly
trained medical practitioners
Click to expand...
In the early 1970's Melbourne (perhaps when you were here?),
one of these started going by the pseudonym Dr. John Heath,
which is my father's name (and then, title). Dad is an
orthodontist... but we got a number of very mysterious phone
calls from people who wanted him, but wouldn't say why. We
almost had to revert to a silent number.

Clifford Heath.
 
On 08/23/11 00:18, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 08/22/2011 01:50 AM, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 08/22/11 15:24, Phil Hobbs wrote:
Far from true.
Whhooooosh. So far over your head, you've got no idea there's even a
place where such ideas could exist. BTDT.

BTW, I have nothing against any individual, and respect you and Joerg
more highly than almost anyone else here. Just don't get the impression
that means I think you're right :). I merely believe Jeremiah, that "The
human heart is more deceitful than all else". It's incredibly difficult
to clearly see and understand the things we can see or interact with
physically, and impossible for things we can't - about those we can only
have opinions. And luckily, that doesn't even matter much, and certainly
doesn't impede our ability to lead an ethical and productive life.
Knowledge of God is primarily knowledge by acquaintance,
Click to expand...
Yes, I've been down that psychic rabbit-hole too. Like anyone, I can set
up mental simulations of many people I've never even met, and with enough
time, become convinced they're real, as happened when I was converted.

Christianity considered as a philosophical system is entirely consistent
with honestly conducted science
Click to expand...
That's just not true. Science indicates there never was a time when the
world was good, when the lion lay down with the lamb, and there never
will (or should) be. It was simple and became complicated; that's
the arrow of time; it's not a description of a process of corruption,
which monotheists call sin. The idea of the fall is the most pernicious
evil ever to befall humankind, immensely damaging to societies and
individuals alike. The attempt to recreate or return to a situation that
never did and never can exist is a total waste of time and effort. We
must look forward to what can be, not backward.

Christianity moreover almost totally destroyed science, as known to the
Greeks and Romans, and it was left to the Muslims to preserve and extend
it. Seriously - Europe had even forgotten how to build arches! Europe
only rediscovered science in the 12th century or so, for example when
the great library of Toledo was opened and found to be full of books in
a Latin from which 50% of the words, and 95% of the concepts had been
lost. The universities were founded upon the attempt to re-learn the
knowledge of the ancients - and even that was only possible because
religious authority (and even royal authority) was beginning to be
questioned.

...I'm sorry about that. But unforgiveness like that will...
....
The way unforgiveness eats people up isn't theology, though, it's a
matter of common observation.
Click to expand...
The relevance? Oh, I see, your ideology doesn't allow you to conceive of
of a person who has lived inside the kind of loving Xian community you do,
and who has now left and is adamantly opposed to their conception of truth,
who is not also eaten up by guilt, loathing and spiteful thoughts - but is
instead happy, productive, well-adjusted, and leading a highly ethical
life. I suppose I should feel offended by your prejudice, but I've worn
those blinkers too. Now I just feel mellow about it. It was a happy time
with good sincere people, even though their lives were being sapped by
trying to re-create an unreality.

Sorry your barbs didn't stick. I've been where you are, spent years in many
different kinds of Christian communities and experienced all they had to
offer, and now I'm profoundly sure that you're wrong. I'm not bitter at
all, though I do think my time might have been better spent elsewhere.
It's not that I'm an atheist; I'm far from that confident. It's just that
the ideas of theism don't and cannot answer any question I care about.

Anyhow, this isn't really the place to continue this discussion. I also have
written more on the subject, elsewhere, though I don't publish much of it.
 
On 08/23/11 19:36, Jon Kirwan wrote:
The near trillion dollar a year business bribes everyone in
our gov't systems.
Click to expand...
Not to mention that it is currently providing the bullets and
explosives that are being used to blow up Americans and others
in Afghanistan. You're bleeding money out the front door paying
to send soldiers to the war, and out the back door paying the
Taliban to fight against you. No wonder the country's bankrupt...
 
On Aug 24, 12:31 pm, Clifford Heath <no.s...@please.net> wrote:
On 08/23/11 19:58,BillSlomanwrote:

abortion was entirely illegal
when I was a university student, but easily available from properly
trained medical practitioners

In the early 1970's Melbourne (perhaps when you were here?),
Click to expand...
I got on the plane to England on the 12th March 1971, and didn't get
back at all until some ten years later, and then only for for a couple
of weeks at a time every few years. I did write home every week, and
my parents replied equally regularly, but they didn't have much to say
about anything was going on in Melbourne that didn't directly affect
them.

<snip>

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen
 
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