Super duper hype fast FET driver?

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:08:54 -0500, "krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz"
<krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 18:02:24 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 07:14:42 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz wrote:


[...]

For SPI and particularly I2C, I'd really like to see both the analog and data
domains, particularly for triggering.

Well yeah, but sometimes if you want more and more features it gets more
expensive and then da boss says no. I'd rather have a simpler scope than
no scope at all. Some of the newer baseline models have a feature or an
option for purchase that adds 4-16 digital inputs for logic analysis. I
never felt the urge since I have a logic analyzer. That has a trigger
output for the scope but I haven't needed that in years.

I've found that if I buy a crappy tool, I'll always have a crappy tool. I
don't do that anymore. I even bought a Festool today. ;-) But I'm certainly
not buying the boss a scope.


Test drive one of those Taiwanese/Chinese scopes. You may be in for a
real surprise. The handbook of mine is rather skimpy, like with most
Asian electronics products. The first few weeks I discovered a new
feature almost daily. Especially in all those codes that it understands
for remote control.

I did. The techs in production have them. Eeek!

My Rigol is cool. It has variable digital lo/hi/bp filtering! And USB
and memory stick ports, which the low-end Tek scopes don't have, at 3x
the price.

John

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Aug 23, 5:18 am, dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Aug 20, 10:17 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

You seem to be rather desparate to get yet another AGW debate going,
aren't you? Forget it, since climategate nobody is interested much anymore.

Global warming?  You hadn't heard the news?  They finally figured that
out...

http://www.theonion.com/articles/scientists-trace-heat-wave-to-massiv...

That must have come as a revelation to James Arthur. Some of us had
got that news earlier - in Tasmania they taught it in primary school -
or did, back in the 1950s. Both my parents has science degrees, so
they had let me in on the secret a little before the teacher told us
the story in class.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 18:30:56 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com
wrote:

On Aug 22, 8:16 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

We did recently breadboard and test using octal ACTs as output
drivers, and that's going into two products.

John

I did that waayyy back. It's pretty impressive. One of the last
bipolar variants (ABT?) (AS?) had a faster falling edge, but the pull
up was absolutely pitiful.

I wonder if Joerg's whole ckt could be a bridged array of ACT244's,
driving the load?

That occurred to me, apparently some minutes after it occurred to you!

If he has access to both sides of his load, he can bridge-drive it
from some arbitrary number of octal buffers. That should be very
clean. And cheap; Joerg like cheap!

John

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 12:18:29 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com
wrote:

On Aug 20, 10:17 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

You seem to be rather desparate to get yet another AGW debate going,
aren't you? Forget it, since climategate nobody is interested much anymore.

Global warming? You hadn't heard the news? They finally figured that
out...

http://www.theonion.com/articles/scientists-trace-heat-wave-to-massive-star-at-cent,21088/

Hey, we saw that thing for a few minutes today! I think.

John

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:34:34 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com
wrote:

On Aug 22, 9:46 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Aug 22, 8:16 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

We did recently breadboard and test using octal ACTs as output
drivers, and that's going into two products.

John

I did that waayyy back.  It's pretty impressive.  One of the last
bipolar variants (ABT?) (AS?) had a faster falling edge, but the pull
up was absolutely pitiful.

I think it was an ABT that we blew when we bootstrapped the ground of
one device onto the tied outputs of another ... *POP* ... and a stench
wafted through the lab.

I wonder if Joerg's whole ckt could be a bridged array of ACT244's,
driving the load?

Unfortunately not :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Oh, just do that into a transformer then and you're done. 12v, hard,
fast, galvanically isolated, and cheap. A custom transformer would
allow voltage step-up, if you wanted.

1:1 transmission-line transformer. Easy. Zere are treeks to make ze
pulse tops really, really flat.

John

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:29:01 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com
wrote:

On Aug 22, 10:04 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:55:48 -0700, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid
wrote:



John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:04:19 -0700, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:20:32 -0700, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid
wrote:

dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote:
[...]

It's still better to not saturate them.  Even a simple b-c schottky
makes a world of difference.  I think I drove my test samples with
74ACxx logic, series resistor, || a few pF, Vdd=+5v.

74AC is too slow for my case. How did you keep it out of saturation? The
old Schottky Baker clamp usually doesn't work on those. A two-diode
Baker makes it all sluggish, too much total inductance in the drive.
A 74ACT octal buffer makes a damned fine high-speed output driver or
fet gate driver. Use 4 or better all 8 sections in parallel.

Can it rival the NL37 series? The advantage would be that those come in
octals. In the old days I have sometimes soldered several on top of each
other but only in experiments. I know that was naughty but it did drive
the big pulser (the super expensive lab grade driver box had croaked).
It was 74AC though.

They are almost as fast as NL37s, sub-ns, but have the advantage that
they are "ttl" compatible. If you power an NL from, say, 6.5 volts and
drive the input from 3.3 or even 5 volt logic, they can really get
hot.

Plus, you get 8 in a can.

Ok, that almost sounds like a deal. Being a bit slower can be made up by
more drive gusto. Eight means more amps than three. Just like the old
muscle car wisdom, cubic inches cannot be replaced by anthing, except by
more cubic-inches

Hey Joerg,

Can you apply steps to opposite sides of the capacitive load? +6 step
on one side, -6 on the other. Make those from a mess of ACTs or Tiny
Logic chips. Maybe a little inductive peaking to spice things up.

Double the voltage! Cheap!

John


Hey, that's what I said! 'ACT244, in array--if he can bridge 'em,
that'd be sweet.

--James

OK, OK, you beat me to that one. Just because you're three time zones
ahead.

John

 

On Aug 22, 8:39 pm, Bill Sloman <bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:

On Aug 23, 5:18 am, dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Aug 20, 10:17 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

You seem to be rather desparate to get yet another AGW debate going,
aren't you? Forget it, since climategate nobody is interested much anymore.

Global warming?  You hadn't heard the news?  They finally figured that
out...

http://www.theonion.com/articles/scientists-trace-heat-wave-to-massiv...

That must have come as a revelation to James Arthur. Some of us had
got that news earlier - in Tasmania they taught it in primary school -
or did, back in the 1950s.

Very nice. The rest of the world learned of it in 1610, from Galileo.

He lived to be 77, therefore they must've had a particularly excellent
socialized health care system, right?

--
Cheers,
James Arthur

 

On Aug 22, 10:04 pm, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:55:48 -0700, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid
wrote:



John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 17:04:19 -0700, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:20:32 -0700, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid
wrote:

dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote:
[...]

It's still better to not saturate them.  Even a simple b-c schottky
makes a world of difference.  I think I drove my test samples with
74ACxx logic, series resistor, || a few pF, Vdd=+5v.

74AC is too slow for my case. How did you keep it out of saturation? The
old Schottky Baker clamp usually doesn't work on those. A two-diode
Baker makes it all sluggish, too much total inductance in the drive..
A 74ACT octal buffer makes a damned fine high-speed output driver or
fet gate driver. Use 4 or better all 8 sections in parallel.

Can it rival the NL37 series? The advantage would be that those come in
octals. In the old days I have sometimes soldered several on top of each
other but only in experiments. I know that was naughty but it did drive
the big pulser (the super expensive lab grade driver box had croaked)..
It was 74AC though.

They are almost as fast as NL37s, sub-ns, but have the advantage that
they are "ttl" compatible. If you power an NL from, say, 6.5 volts and
drive the input from 3.3 or even 5 volt logic, they can really get
hot.

Plus, you get 8 in a can.

Ok, that almost sounds like a deal. Being a bit slower can be made up by
more drive gusto. Eight means more amps than three. Just like the old
muscle car wisdom, cubic inches cannot be replaced by anthing, except by
more cubic-inches

Hey Joerg,

Can you apply steps to opposite sides of the capacitive load? +6 step
on one side, -6 on the other. Make those from a mess of ACTs or Tiny
Logic chips. Maybe a little inductive peaking to spice things up.

Double the voltage! Cheap!

John

Hey, that's what I said! 'ACT244, in array--if he can bridge 'em,
that'd be sweet.

--James

 

On Aug 22, 9:46 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Aug 22, 8:16 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

We did recently breadboard and test using octal ACTs as output
drivers, and that's going into two products.

John

I did that waayyy back.  It's pretty impressive.  One of the last
bipolar variants (ABT?) (AS?) had a faster falling edge, but the pull
up was absolutely pitiful.

I think it was an ABT that we blew when we bootstrapped the ground of
one device onto the tied outputs of another ... *POP* ... and a stench
wafted through the lab.

I wonder if Joerg's whole ckt could be a bridged array of ACT244's,
driving the load?

Unfortunately not :-(

D a r n. That's too bad.

--James

 

On Aug 22, 9:46 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Aug 22, 8:16 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

We did recently breadboard and test using octal ACTs as output
drivers, and that's going into two products.

John

I did that waayyy back.  It's pretty impressive.  One of the last
bipolar variants (ABT?) (AS?) had a faster falling edge, but the pull
up was absolutely pitiful.

I think it was an ABT that we blew when we bootstrapped the ground of
one device onto the tied outputs of another ... *POP* ... and a stench
wafted through the lab.

I wonder if Joerg's whole ckt could be a bridged array of ACT244's,
driving the load?

Unfortunately not :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Oh, just do that into a transformer then and you're done. 12v, hard,
fast, galvanically isolated, and cheap. A custom transformer would
allow voltage step-up, if you wanted.

--
Cheers,
James Arthur

 

On Aug 22, 10:59 pm, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:34:34 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com
wrote:



On Aug 22, 9:46 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Aug 22, 8:16 pm, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

We did recently breadboard and test using octal ACTs as output
drivers, and that's going into two products.

John

I did that waayyy back.  It's pretty impressive.  One of the last
bipolar variants (ABT?) (AS?) had a faster falling edge, but the pull
up was absolutely pitiful.

I think it was an ABT that we blew when we bootstrapped the ground of
one device onto the tied outputs of another ... *POP* ... and a stench
wafted through the lab.

I wonder if Joerg's whole ckt could be a bridged array of ACT244's,
driving the load?

Unfortunately not :-(

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Oh, just do that into a transformer then and you're done.  12v, hard,
fast, galvanically isolated, and cheap.  A custom transformer would
allow voltage step-up, if you wanted.

1:1 transmission-line transformer. Easy. Zere are treeks to make ze
pulse tops really, really flat.

John

If he can do a 2:1 or 3:1 transformer then he might be able to drive
it all off one array, saving him the need for balanced anti-phase
drive signals for a bridge.

Slower dv/dt that way, so maybe use something faster than ACT...

--James

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Mon, 22 Aug 2011 14:15:24 -0500) it happened Vladimir
Vassilevsky <nospam@nowhere.com> wrote in
<isadnZ3uJe1bN8_TnZ2dnUVZ_q-dnZ2d@giganews.com>:

Although there is some truth in that,
we need to look a bit deeper.
What is at the basis of *all* religions?

Gregarious instinct.

Dunno that word.

Usually it is a person, say Buddha, Jesus, Krishna, Ram, Mohammed.
These people were real and were able to show their followers a divine experience in side of them.

The christianity as a concept is ~300 years older then Jesus. The
success of the christianity is mostly due to the efforts of Paul rather
then Jesus himself. Mohammed was an indoctrinational officer of the Abu
Bahr's army. Not sure about the others.

I am not talking about any worldly miracles like waking on water on winning wars or whatever.
I am merely talking about some process *inside a human being* that needs to be understood,
and when understood is the key to a life long happiness.

Human being is an animal. Understand this, quit thinking, quit talking
to yourself and quit pretending to be what you are not. That's the
whole secret )))

No, you are wrong. Sure, we are constructed like an animal, and behave like one,
but I am talking about [the capability] of understanding the self.
Something not pushed forward or emphasised usually.
Animals do not have, or practice, science either (leave out the ape using a stick etc).
But maybe even those apes sometimes wonder what it is all about.
But it is not about that, it is about *you* understanding how *you* operate,
and doing something with that understanding.

As society is set to look for happiness *outside* yourself, for example in western
society by acquiring more material wealth, objects, power, or whatever you
buy into that they makes you think will do it for you, the 'schizophrenia' is created.

Acquiring stuff -> endorphins -> happiness.

No, no way, you can be the richest man [or the most powerful man] in the world [1],
and be unhappy, and you can be the poorest have nothing and be in bliss.

[1] I wanted to say look at Obama, and then why not, he has become totally frustrated.

So, then you, as a logical person who can do math and reasoning, must see that "happiness"
is an internal process, not determined by *any* external process.
Not to be confused with comfort, which is external accommodation of you physical needs.
You can buy that, of fight for and win that [comfort], but even when you acquire it,
you may still be an emotional unhappy shipwreck.

We see from history that usually, after a such a person dies, politics
grabs the followers and changes a real experience into a religion, a set of rules
that then are supposed to bring you to that experience,
usually accompanied by some book, Koran, Bible, Gita, etc etc.
For Christianity this happened during the Roman empire, the believe in what Christ was showing was
replaced by a state religion, and that was used to control the people.

Why not. This is no better or worse then any other method.

It is worse, as it sort of is designed to keep people unhappy, so they will dance to the tune
of the 'religious leaders', while in a non-religious society at least there will be more tolerance
and openes to science (science is a thread to religions),
Look how women are oppressed by Islam, how little kids are abused by the Catholic church,
what they did to Galileo etc.
Religions want to keep the people stupid, because if they were to become learned,
then they would get rid of the religion and its leaders.

Crusades happened later, murder, inquisition.
Mass hysteria, total stupidity...

That always was and always is.
Nothing changed.

True

Absolutely nothing to do with a divine experience or understanding what was at the basis of it all.

Well if everybody will absorbe in nirvana then who will be cleaning the
shit?

OK, maybe you are stuck on the word 'divine experience',
lets just call it 'bliss', I work better when I am happy.
Clarity and love makes me more creative.

Nothing 'mild' really., and still today the pope plays his games, plays his masses.

The Pope is just a CEO of the Catholic Church, Inc.

Yep, and democratically chosen by it leaders... LOL.

and the real experience NOW in this life is replaced by a promise for after death,
after you are gone, have rotted away so to speak...

Life after death is another way for not paying the bills. The efficient
doctrine should produce the results now, here and for real.

True, but there is no doctrine for the human heart.
*You* have to understand *your* heart, that is all there is to it.

a:

So, to make a long story short, for the real truth look within, there is bliss there, or at least it can be.
It is simple, and there is something there that needs to be understood.

What point are you trying to make?

goto a

 

[Jon Kirwan]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 20:02:05 -0700, Joerg
<invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

snip
And that's exactly the problem. Dealers want to make money so they mix a
teaser drug into soft drugs and ... kaboom, brain's almost fried. This
is how a guy whom I knew died. Several others are permanently mentally
disabled, and very seriously.

But Joerg, that isn't the only side. There are so many
others, as well. Just to add some balance, I'll talk about a
few.

The near trillion dollar a year business bribes everyone in
our gov't systems. Corrupt police, corrupt judges, corrupt
politicians, and a great deal of violence as well because
there is no court system that can be used to adjudicate
disputes. (So folks take 'justice' into their own hands, as
there is no other option except walking away.)

The destruction caused to society is profound and spreads
across every part of it. Our own US gov't was involved in
transporting cocaine into the US under the Reagan/Bush
administration as part of a larger plan to circumvent the
Boland amendments. It was horrible what that did in our
society. (If you need some names to look up, check up on
Donald Gregg, the senior advisor to G Bush sr and a daily
advisor to him; and Felix Rodriguez who met regularly with
Donald ... as just a very tiny sampling.)

We _must_ be able to trust our police and judicial system, if
it is to function well for all of us. You don't mention any
of this. And it is a cost that is both personal to those who
are dealt injustices by it as well as general.

And there is more. My daughter suffers from grand mal
seizures. Just about had one today and I spent a large part
of it holding her and helping her get through the risk. We
have tried nearly every viable drug for controlling these
seizures over the last 14 years. Many of them have serious
side effects, such as significant enhancement of tooth and
gum decay, listlessness and lack of life during the day,
liver and kidney damage that can be measured by the year,
profound and difficult personality changes, and other medical
risks. Some years ago, our neurologist decided to have us
try marijuana under the OMMP program and we measured the
impact (we keep daily records.) It was promising. We went
off of it, while trying still other drugs for a few years
since. We've only just started returning to marijuana
perhaps 6 months ago under the OMMP program in Oregon, when
her seizures increased to a rate of one every 6-8 days. Over
the last six months, we've experienced three seizure events.
It was a sudden and dramatic reduction and we are as certain
as one can be under the circumstances.

I cannot tell you how important this is in our lives. It
affects everything about our ability to cope and deal with
her seizures. And her personality has bloomed, as well. She
is drawing pictures every day, attempting to talk more with
us, and able to cope much better with the sounds that she is
so sensitive to during each day (bird calls outside can drive
her nuts, but do so much less now, for example.)

Time will tell us more. We are doing this entirely under the
control of both our neurologist and our general practitioner
-- the first we've been working with since 2003 (8 years now)
and the 2nd has been her doctor for almost 20 years. They
know our situation as well as any professionals may. And
they were taking care of her and trying to help us for many
years before we decided to try this, so it's not only our own
judgments here. It's the opinion of well trained
professionals who have had long experience with our
particular case and know where we have been over the years.

You may not appreciate just what this means. Our daughter
broke six teeth in one event over the bathtub. Just one
event. There were many others where she broke more in
differing situations. She broke both her radius and ulna in
another seizure. Clean through. She trapped an electric
heater between her legs in another and in the few seconds it
took for one of us to run down the hallway to get to her
room, she suffered 3rd degree burns to her inner thighs. She
will eventually die in one of these.. perhaps by falling
through some plate glass.. perhaps by falling at the top of
some stairway in some random moment we aren't immediately
present and can grab her. Something will get her. And the
more frequent the seizures, the more potential for that event
happening sooner than later.

It makes a HUGE difference. And so far, it is the very best
impact we've seen on her seizures. Others may have other
experiences. But in her case, there is no longer much
question that we are unaware of anything close to as good.
And we've been through every appropriate drug on the list
(large chart, large list, some not appropriate, but all
appropriate ones tried by now.)

There _are_ medical uses. But we are at risk every single
day because the Fed's consider it a crime. We are at risk
every day because someone may decide to invade our home
because of the black market. We are at risk for no good
reason. Our doctors are monitoring our use, we keep daily
records, and our federal system refuses to lower the
classification so that properly compounded and controlled
quantities can be prepared and used under medical
supervision.

There are many sides. You don't have to believe or agree
with any one part of it, but I think you need to understand
that there is much damage done by an industry that is illegal
and due to the huge moneys involved extremely corrupting at a
variety of levels. (There is a set of Congressional
testimony available in the Congressional Record, if you like,
that would scare most people because of how pervasive and
sweeping these effects were found to be during the Kerry
'drug hearings' in the late 1980's.) And it is very personal
to me, as well, as it places my family at personal and
continual risk and prevents my doctors from doing their job
as they should be able to do it.

It means something to me. One day, some time back, my wife
and I got to do one of the few 'dates' (maybe two a year, if
we are lucky?) where we got to go together to the grocery
store for some shopping and holding hands together. My
oldest son stayed back to watch Athena. When we arrived back
home, gone no longer than an hour, Becky wouldn't get out of
the car. She just sat there. I said, "What's up?" She
said, "You go in, see if she is still alive, and let me
know."

That's what our life is like, Joerg. And we now have
something that materially impacts that in our lives. You
know me. I'm telling you. You need to understand the
difference this makes in OUR lives, as well. Perhaps you
need to hear a different story from someone else you know so
that you can balance this a little better?

It's not just a little bit personal, Joerg. Just so you
know.

Jon

 

[Mark Robarts]

Just as a matter of interest. That people didn't live much past 35 is a common misconception. The average life expectancy of 35 is a result of a very high infant mortality rate and does not mean that people did not live to be 90 (or that people did not previously die slowly and painfully).

 

[Nico Coesel]

Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Bill Sloman wrote:
On Aug 23, 7:06 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
langw...@fonz.dk wrote:
On 22 Aug., 21:58, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
langw...@fonz.dk wrote:

[...]

at least it is legal and regulated, so there's hope those who work
there
do it of their own free will
just like drugs prostitution won't go aways just because you ban it,
it
just means criminals will make money providing it, with no regulation
what so ever
Oh yeah, if we give up fighting it we just make it legal. Sorry, but you
will not convince me of that. I have lived in the Netherlands for about
6 years and seen the sad aftermath of that. Including some funerals.
do you think a ban would fix that?
Yes. I have lived in countries with bans and without. With bans there
were less people who fried their brains via drugs and less drug-related
funerals. I prefer that.

It's a popular delusion that bans work. But restrictive France has a
bigger problem with drugs than the not-all-that permissive
Netherlands.


What I have observed is different.

Then you must have been in de drugs-scene No-one I know directly
or indirectly has died because of drugs.

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Aug 23, 1:02 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

BillSlomanwrote:
On Aug 23, 7:06 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
langw...@fonz.dk wrote:
On 22 Aug., 21:58, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
langw...@fonz.dk wrote:

[...]



at least it is legal and regulated, so there's hope those who work
there
do it of their own free will
just like drugs prostitution won't go aways just because you ban it,
it
just means criminals will make money providing it, with no regulation
what so ever
Oh yeah, if we give up fighting it we just make it legal. Sorry, but you
will not convince me of that. I have lived in the Netherlands for about
6 years and seen the sad aftermath of that. Including some funerals.
do you think a ban would fix that?
Yes. I have lived in countries with bans and without. With bans there
were less people who fried their brains via drugs and less drug-related
funerals. I prefer that.

It's a popular delusion that bans work. But restrictive France has a
bigger problem with drugs than the not-all-that permissive
Netherlands.

What I have observed is different.

When were you in France?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Netherlands

Quote "The drug policy of the Netherlands is marked by its
distinguishing between so called "soft" and "hard drugs"."

And that's exactly the problem. Dealers want to make money so they mix a
teaser drug into soft drugs and ... kaboom, brain's almost fried. This
is how a guy whom I knew died. Several others are permanently mentally
disabled, and very seriously.

So legalise the supply of soft drugs, and get it out of the hands of
people who also want to supply hard drugs. Do you find teaser drugs in
your beer or - if you smoke - your tobacco?

Or - come to think of it - your chocolate, your coffee, your tea or
your ginger?

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Aug 23, 1:05 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

BillSlomanwrote:
On Aug 23, 5:58 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
langw...@fonz.dk wrote:
On 22 Aug., 20:07, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Nico Coesel wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
On 08/22/2011 11:08 AM, Nico Coesel wrote:
Phil Hobbs<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net>  wrote:
On 08/22/2011 01:03 AM, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 08/22/11 06:45, Joerg wrote:
I won't judge anyone who does that, that's not up to me. Personally I
would not do it because it is squarely against biblical teaching, and I
try to live by that.
Would that be the biblical teaching in favor of genocide, or witch-burning?
What you think is Christian is predominantly the interpretation and
ideology
of your chosen cultural group, with some ideas drawn from another stone-age
group; neither of which is informed by rational inquiry or material
realities.
Far from it.  Properly, the Church is organized so that no one is
without supervision, precisely because all of us, ministers and laity
Keep on dreaming. Over here in NL and in Belgium there is a big
scandal going on concerning pedophiles in the church. There are dozens
of victims!
And its not limited to NL and Belgium:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/HOUSE+OF+HORROR%3B+100+set+to+sue+over+...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/53545205/Torture-Assassinations-Vaccine-Tri...
Right now its dinner time over here but I suddenly lost my appetite!
I'd certainly have had to be asleep to miss it, especially since it came
out in 2002 in the US.  Nor is it limited to the Church--schoolteachers,
for instance, have a far worse record, at least over here.
As a Dutchman, if you really want something to turn your stomach, try
investigating the origins of all those trafficked slave women in the red
light district of Amsterdam.  IIRC about 4 out of 5 were trafficked from
Russia and eastern Europe, and they suffer rape and worse, continually,
until they're too sick or too worn out to be worth anything any more.
Well, if you want to see unhappy women you should go to the red-light
district. However, your information is a bit outdated. Many laws and
regulations have been put in effect to minimize the possibility of
human trafficking and enslavement. It is very difficult to get a
permit to open a sex-club (aka massage salon). Even the well known
Yab-Yum has been closed down by the local authorities because there
where rumours the owners had ties with the criminal circuit.
Outdated? From what I have heard they have discovered a new source of
"revenue" and are now taxing the redlight districts:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9KMSBS81&show_article=1
it's a job/business, why shouldn't they pay tax like everyone else?
So we look the other way when the question regarding the residency
permit comes up?

Being a "sex worker" is a legitimate job in the Netherlands, and
people coming from those eastern European countries that are now part
of the recently extended European Union don't need any kind of
residency permit anyway.

You still need the Vergunning to Verblijf, just like I did. That's what
a Dutch couple that was here three weeks ago told me. They know that for
a fact because one of them is from the EU but not a Dutch citizen.



at least it is legal and regulated, so there's hope those who work
there do it of their own free will
just like drugs prostitution won't go aways just because you ban it,
it just means criminals will make money providing it, with no
regulation what so ever.
Oh yeah, if we give up fighting it we just make it legal. Sorry, but you
will not convince me of that. I have lived in the Netherlands for about
6 years and seen the sad aftermath of that. Including some funerals.

Make it legal and regulate the hell out of it. The Dutch don't yet
inspect brothels as aggressively as they now inspect fire-works depots
and chemical plants ... the risk of spreading sexually transmitted
diseases worries the neighbours less than the risk of loud explosions
or clouds of poisonous gas.

Prostitution, drugs, alcohol, tobacco and abortion are all services/
products that get provided whether or not they are legally permitted.
Banning them is just political posturing.

Abortion is a service? You've got to be kidding. To me that's murder for
hire.

Perhaps. But your moral objections won't stop it happening.

Australia is 35% catholic - mostly due to substantial Irish
immigration in the 19th century - and abortion was entirely illegal
when I was a university student, but easily available from properly
trained medical practitioners, who really didn't want to have clean up
after an abortion carried out by a less skilled and careful back-
street abortionist, to whom the girsl would have turned if they
couldn't have found anything better.

Unfortunately, part of the mix that made this possible were some
significant bribes paid to senior police officers, and when this
became known, the whole thing became subject to police investigation.
One day, when I was having coffee with two female friends of mine -
nice girls, but not of romantic interest to me - I had to make myself
scarce when the some detectives came to interview one of them about a
visit she'd made to one of the suspect gynacologists.

Common sense finally prevailed a few years later. Those people with
moral objections to abortion were upset, but the rest of the
population took a more realistic view.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

 

[Nico Coesel]

Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

Bill Sloman wrote:

Prostitution, drugs, alcohol, tobacco and abortion are all services/
products that get provided whether or not they are legally permitted.
Banning them is just political posturing.


Abortion is a service? You've got to be kidding. To me that's murder for
hire.

Just out of personal interest: I guess you are against the death
penalty as well?

--
Failure does not prove something is impossible, failure simply
indicates you are not using the right tools...
nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
--------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Aug 23, 12:02 pm, dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Aug 22, 8:39 pm,BillSloman<bill.slo...@ieee.org> wrote:

On Aug 23, 5:18 am, dagmargoodb...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Aug 20, 10:17 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

You seem to be rather desparate to get yet another AGW debate going,
aren't you? Forget it, since climategate nobody is interested much anymore.

Global warming?  You hadn't heard the news?  They finally figured that
out...

http://www.theonion.com/articles/scientists-trace-heat-wave-to-massiv....

That must have come as a revelation to James Arthur. Some of us had
got that news earlier - in Tasmania they taught it in primary school -
or did, back in the 1950s.

Very nice.  The rest of the world learned of it in 1610, from Galileo.

Kepler deserves more credit but not until 1618, and it really took
Newton's 1687 publication of his Principia Mathematica to make a more
or less air-tight case. This doesn't do justice to Aristarchus of
Samos who had the basic idea in the 3rd century BC.

And since you weren't around in 1610, the question of when you
realised that the Sun was the earth's heat source remains moot. If you
had been taught it at primary school, the article in The Onion
shouldn't have come as a surprise to you, and you presumably wouldn't
have seen any point in drawing it to the attention of the rest of us.

He lived to be 77, therefore they must've had a particularly excellent
socialized health care system, right?

Galileo was a famous and much prized university professor with many
rich and powerful friends. He had access to the best medical care that
money could buy at that time. If you had read any of his biographies,
you'd be aware his old age was plagued by a number of medical problems
- medical science wasn't all that advanced at the time and the help
available wasn't particularly effective.

As has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread, the low average life
expectancy at birth for that period was dominated by the high death
rate in childhood. Once they'd survived the various childhood diseases
many people lived to a ripe old age. Newton died at 82, Kepler at 58
and Aristarchus seems to have made it to 80.

It might be an idea if you put in some time learning how to do joined
up logic.

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Aug 23, 1:05 pm, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

BillSlomanwrote:
On Aug 23, 5:58 am, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
langw...@fonz.dk wrote:
On 22 Aug., 20:07, Joerg <inva...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
Nico Coesel wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net> wrote:
On 08/22/2011 11:08 AM, Nico Coesel wrote:
Phil Hobbs<pcdhSpamMeSensel...@electrooptical.net>  wrote:
On 08/22/2011 01:03 AM, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 08/22/11 06:45, Joerg wrote:
I won't judge anyone who does that, that's not up to me. Personally I
would not do it because it is squarely against biblical teaching, and I
try to live by that.
Would that be the biblical teaching in favor of genocide, or witch-burning?
What you think is Christian is predominantly the interpretation and
ideology
of your chosen cultural group, with some ideas drawn from another stone-age
group; neither of which is informed by rational inquiry or material
realities.
Far from it.  Properly, the Church is organized so that no one is
without supervision, precisely because all of us, ministers and laity
Keep on dreaming. Over here in NL and in Belgium there is a big
scandal going on concerning pedophiles in the church. There are dozens
of victims!
And its not limited to NL and Belgium:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/HOUSE+OF+HORROR%3B+100+set+to+sue+over+...
http://www.scribd.com/doc/53545205/Torture-Assassinations-Vaccine-Tri...
Right now its dinner time over here but I suddenly lost my appetite!
I'd certainly have had to be asleep to miss it, especially since it came
out in 2002 in the US.  Nor is it limited to the Church--schoolteachers,
for instance, have a far worse record, at least over here.
As a Dutchman, if you really want something to turn your stomach, try
investigating the origins of all those trafficked slave women in the red
light district of Amsterdam.  IIRC about 4 out of 5 were trafficked from
Russia and eastern Europe, and they suffer rape and worse, continually,
until they're too sick or too worn out to be worth anything any more.
Well, if you want to see unhappy women you should go to the red-light
district. However, your information is a bit outdated. Many laws and
regulations have been put in effect to minimize the possibility of
human trafficking and enslavement. It is very difficult to get a
permit to open a sex-club (aka massage salon). Even the well known
Yab-Yum has been closed down by the local authorities because there
where rumours the owners had ties with the criminal circuit.
Outdated? From what I have heard they have discovered a new source of
"revenue" and are now taxing the redlight districts:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9KMSBS81&show_article=1
it's a job/business, why shouldn't they pay tax like everyone else?
So we look the other way when the question regarding the residency
permit comes up?

Being a "sex worker" is a legitimate job in the Netherlands, and
people coming from those eastern European countries that are now part
of the recently extended European Union don't need any kind of
residency permit anyway.

You still need the Vergunning to Verblijf, just like I did. That's what
a Dutch couple that was here three weeks ago told me. They know that for
a fact because one of them is from the EU but not a Dutch citizen.

I doubt if you'd need it now. My wife and I both needed them in 1993
because we are Australian citizens, but one of my wife's English
colleagues who moved to the Netherlands at the same time didn't have
to bother.

<snip - responded to that bit earlier>

--
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen