OT: Wild Weather

Jim Thompson · Jan 7, 2005

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 14:41:01 -0500, Chuck Harris
<cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:

Mark Jones wrote:
What doesn't make sense is the last few thousand years of the graph. It
clearly should have started going into a colder period, but instead the
global temperature has stayed almost constant. So what we perceive as
being "no change" in global warming might actually be a "big deal."

Disclaimer: I'm no climatologist.

If you are going to blame humans, that glitch better have started in the
last 100-200 years. 800 years ago, humans were insignificant producers of
greenhouse gasses. We still are, but we are making much more now than we
were prior to the industrial revolution. The active volcanos are making
way more than we ever could.

-Chuck

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Spehro Pefhany · Jan 7, 2005

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 19:12:57 +0000, the renowned John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Mark Fergerson <nunya@biz.ness
wrote (in <WOADd.52045$Cl3.34912@fed1read03&gt about 'OT: Wild Weather',
on Fri, 7 Jan 2005:
A cabbie once told me of some passengers he had from India who wanted
to try "American Food". He pointed at a strip of restaurants; Italian,
Japanese, Mexican, and so on, and said "That's American food". Smart
Cabbie.

That's like British food: pizza, chicken rogan josh and prawn green
curry. With nasi goreng, of course.

You can't blame the Italians for fish & chip pizza. Nor credit the
Indians for cheese & chutney sandwiches.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Richard the Dreaded Liber · Jan 7, 2005

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 02:08:14 -0800, bill.sloman wrote:

Global warming means more water gets evaporated from the oceans, which
in turns leads to wilder weather.

There are more specific effects, and one possible result of global
warming would be for the Gulf Stream to turn off, which might leave
most of northern Europe covered with glaciers (as it was in the last
Ice Age).

Since the U.S.is the biggest single generator of greenhouse gases,...

Except for volcanoes, forests, and cows.

Cheers!
Rich

Ken Taylor · Jan 7, 2005

"Nico Coesel" <nico@puntnl.niks> wrote in message
news:41dee5c8.1580411121@news.planet.nl...

Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

See...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/Musings/Funnel.gif

I recently visited Auckland (New Zealand). Its now supposed to be
summer over there. I've had rain, hail, clouds and sunshine in one
day. According to a taxi driver its not uncommon to have all four
seasons in one day.

--
Geez, I'd settle for four seasons in a day! We're getting four seasons per

hour at present! It really sucks the big wiener down here at present. :-(

Ken
(Auckland, NZ)

Jim Thompson · Jan 7, 2005

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:35:17 -0500, Chuck Harris
<cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
strial revolution. The active volcanos are making
way more than we ever could.

-Chuck

Don't forget cow flatulence ;-)

...Jim Thompson

If you had ever stood behind a cow when it happened, you
never would ;-)

-Chuck

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

John Woodgate · Jan 7, 2005

I read in sci.electronics.design that bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote (in
<1105138720.118966.99520@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com&gt

about 'OT: Wild
Weather', on Fri, 7 Jan 2005:

John Woodgate wrote:
I read in sci.electronics.design that bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote (in
1105092913.800173.221300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com&gt about 'OT:
Wild
Weather', on Fri, 7 Jan 2005:

Jim would seem to be a few years behind the game. The present state
of
the debate is that it is generally accepted that global warming is
real.
The Greenland and Antarctic ice cores collected in recent years have

provided a pretty comprehensive and convincing picture of climate
flucuations over the past few hundred thousand years, and some
indications of the mechanisms involved.

snip

The cores show some very rapid changes in climate as well as very
much
slower ones. These need to be correlated with what is known about the
effects of continental drift. For example, the climate of the north
coast of India, while it was migrating north from near Madagascar,
was
very different from what it was when the north coast was not even a
memory, and certainly very different from what it is now.

I think you need to look at the time-scales involved. Continents drift
at less than 10cm per year, which is one kilometre in 100,000 years.

I did think about it. Of course, drift doesn't account for the most
rapid of the observed changes, but I didn't mean to imply that it did.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Mark Fergerson · Jan 7, 2005

John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Mark Fergerson <nunya@biz.ness
wrote (in <WOADd.52045$Cl3.34912@fed1read03&gt about 'OT: Wild Weather',
on Fri, 7 Jan 2005:

A cabbie once told me of some passengers he had from India who wanted
to try "American Food". He pointed at a strip of restaurants; Italian,
Japanese, Mexican, and so on, and said "That's American food". Smart
Cabbie.

That's like British food: pizza, chicken rogan josh and prawn green
curry. With nasi goreng, of course.

I thought British food was anything at all, boiled for
three or four hours. ;&gt

Mark L. Fergerson

Rich Grise · Jan 7, 2005

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 21:42:57 +0000, John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Rich Grise <richgrise@example.net
wrote (in <pan.2005.01.07.21.19.19.374711@example.net&gt about 'OT: Wild
Weather', on Fri, 7 Jan 2005:
The way I see it, there are global climactic changes,

We just had a climactic change to the coasts of the Indian Ocean.
Climatic changes tend to be slower.

D'oh! Got me!

Thanks,
Rich

Rich The Newsgropup Wacko · Jan 7, 2005

On Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:35:17 -0500, Chuck Harris wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
strial revolution. The active volcanos are making
way more than we ever could.

-Chuck

Don't forget cow flatulence ;-)

...Jim Thompson

If you had ever stood behind a cow when it happened, you
never would ;-)

"Mabel! Mabel! Our horse can talk!"
"Huh? You crazy!"
"No, come on out to the barn, I'll show you!"
They go to the barn.
Clem says, "Dobbin, how many oats did you eat today?"
The horse's tail comes up, and she says, "A FFfffeeeeeeeeeewwww"

;-)

Jim Thompson · Jan 6, 2005

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 20:24:46 -0500, Mark Jones <abuse@127.0.0.1>
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
See...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/Musings/Funnel.gif

...Jim Thompson

Snow in Arizona?

So, about that whole global warming thing...

Or maybe the "eurotrash" are enacting vengance against the entire
state of AZ for Jim's earlier comments?

ROTFL ;-)

The snow up north is not unusual... just the heavy rains/tornados down
in the Phoenix area... though we DO have an occasional _summer_
tornado... one in 1972 wiped out most of my neighborhood in North
Scottsdale... houses all around me went down... I just suffered
sand-blasted paint plus people's roofs in my swimming pool :-(

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Mark Jones · Jan 6, 2005

CWatters wrote:

bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:1105006094.341736.311730@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

Global warming means more water gets evaporated from the oceans, which
in turns leads to wilder weather.

The biggest concern at the moment seems to be a possible large and sudden
rise in sea level due to _melting_ at the poles. The resulting rise in sea
level could mean some prime real estate is under water within 80 years. Your
children better watch out where they buy a house or expect to see it's value
fall.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/03/020329072043.htm

Quote: The West Antarctic ice sheet is thought to be potentially unstable,
and if it collapsed sea levels around the world would rise almost 20 feet.
The melting of the larger and more stable East Antarctic ice sheet would
raise Earth's sea levels another 200 feet.

Think it won't happen?

In January 1995 around 2000 square kilometers of the Larsen Ice sheet broke
up....

http://nsidc.org/iceshelves/larsen1995/

"Two dramatic events occurred in the Larsen Ice Shelf in late January of
1995. A large iceberg (70 km by 25 km) calved from the shelf between Jason
Peninsula and Robertson Island (see map), and the northernmost part of the
shelf, north of Seal Nunataks, disintegrated. The large iceberg calving
event received the most notice in popular media coverage but such events are
part of the normal mass balance cycle for ice shelves. The northern
disintegration, on the other hand, occurred in an unprecedented manner, by
the sudden break-up of a region approximately 2000 km2 into many small
icebergs (typically 1 to 2 km or smaller). It is the more likely of the two
events to be related to climate change."

I saw a NOVA on PBS once about icebergs and the polar flows. Very
fascinating stuff. As the water at the poles is frozen out of the
ocean, large amounts of salt precipitate out. This salt flows down the
ocean floor along channels which have been worn away over the
millennia. This salt ends up at the equator, where centrifugal force
mixes the salt with the water again and it heads back to the poles.
Apparently this cycle takes a few thousand years.

With less ice at the poles, the ocean's salt flows will slow and its
salinity will drop. Who knows what that will do?

John Woodgate · Jan 7, 2005

I read in sci.electronics.design that bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote (in
<1105092913.800173.221300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com&gt

about 'OT: Wild
Weather', on Fri, 7 Jan 2005:

Jim would seem to be a few years behind the game. The present state of
the debate is that it is generally accepted that global warming is real.

Yes. Even the US government accepts it, but continues to oppose the
Kyoto agreement for reasons which DO bear examination. Kyoto is deeply
flawed and it implementation looks like being pretty ineffective for a
number of reasons. It was very much 'the best compromise', for
sufficiently bad values of 'best'. The EU 'carbon trading scheme', if
it's not made economically ineffective by setting permitted levels
(mass/year) of emission too high, may result in a global scheme that US
industry will find acceptable.

The Greenland and Antarctic ice cores collected in recent years have
provided a pretty comprehensive and convincing picture of climate
flucuations over the past few hundred thousand years, and some
indications of the mechanisms involved.

The cores show some very rapid changes in climate as well as very much
slower ones. These need to be correlated with what is known about the
effects of continental drift. For example, the climate of the north
coast of India, while it was migrating north from near Madagascar, was
very different from what it was when the north coast was not even a
memory, and certainly very different from what it is now.

The state of the weather in
Arizona over the last hundred years isn't all that relevant.

It's relevant, perhaps, but not a reliable indicator of any global
trend.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Jim Thompson · Jan 7, 2005

On Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:44:39 +0000, John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote (in
1105092913.800173.221300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com&gt about 'OT: Wild
Weather', on Fri, 7 Jan 2005:
[snip]

The state of the weather in
Arizona over the last hundred years isn't all that relevant.

It's relevant, perhaps, but not a reliable indicator of any global
trend.

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Mark Fergerson · Jan 7, 2005

Clarence_A wrote:

"Mark Fergerson" wrote
snip

Same storm that tore part of the roof off the Green
Gables restaurant at 3d avenue and Camelback

Hey, is that the SAME Green Gables Restaurant that used to be on
24th street and Thomas Road? They were one of the best in the
area!

Yeah, that was quite a storm to move the store four and
some change miles...

OK, maybe my memory's got a hole re: the name. But it was
_a_ restaurant at 3d and Camelback that lost part of its roof.

Restaurant quality in the PHX metro area is so damn
variable, what with chefs moving around, Official Dietary
Recommendations screwing with my carnivorous instincts, and
like that, not to mention the "infant mortality" in the
field. Durant's is still my steak benchmark, franchises like
Black Angus and Ruth Chris' notwithstanding. For Sonoran
(what most Anglos call "Mexican") I like La Tolteca or Dos
Molinos when I have time. Too bad Dos Amigos folded; best
chiles rellenos I've ever tasted. Still can't find decent
Chinese or Thai.

A cabbie once told me of some passengers he had from
India who wanted to try "American Food". He pointed at a
strip of restaurants; Italian, Japanese, Mexican, and so on,
and said "That's American food". Smart Cabbie.

Mark L. Fergerson

John Woodgate · Jan 7, 2005

I read in sci.electronics.design that Chuck Harris <cf-NO-SPAM-
harris@erols.com> wrote (in <l6WdnUD41LtTeEPcRVn-rQ@rcn.net&gt

about 'OT:
Wild Weather', on Fri, 7 Jan 2005:

If you are going to blame humans, that glitch better have started in the
last 100-200 years. 800 years ago, humans were insignificant producers
of
greenhouse gasses. We still are, but we are making much more now than
we
were prior to the industrial revolution. The active volcanos are making
way more than we ever could.

800 years ago, there were a lot more bison and other ruminants
contributing methane, which is a lot more effective as a greenhouse gas
than CO2.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

John Woodgate · Jan 7, 2005

I read in sci.electronics.design that Nico Coesel <nico@puntnl.niks>
wrote (in <41dee5c8.1580411121@news.planet.nl&gt

about 'OT: Wild
Weather', on Fri, 7 Jan 2005:

Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

See...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/Musings/Funnel.gif

I recently visited Auckland (New Zealand). Its now supposed to be
summer over there. I've had rain, hail, clouds and sunshine in one
day. According to a taxi driver its not uncommon to have all four
seasons in one day.

Auckland has a very unique(;-) climate. it's about the only

Mediterranean-hyperoceanic climate anywhere, except the Chilean coastal
strip around Valparaiso. But you can get the same rapid variation on the
south-east coast of England, especially towards the east. I've
experienced thick fog, snow, rain, hail and sunshine in one day on the
South Downs, a few miles inland from the Sussex coast.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

John Woodgate · Jan 7, 2005

I read in sci.electronics.design that Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlog
DOTyou.knowwhat> wrote (in <chstt0l0ue6aodga6atqvd8d6i669tnao6@4ax.com&gt

about 'OT: Wild Weather', on Fri, 7 Jan 2005:

You can't blame the Italians for fish & chip pizza. Nor credit the
Indians for cheese & chutney sandwiches.

I wouldn't dream of doing so.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

John Woodgate · Jan 7, 2005

I read in sci.electronics.design that Ken Taylor <ken@home.nz> wrote (in
<yBDDd.5774$mo2.396352@news.xtra.co.nz&gt

about 'OT: Wild Weather', on
Sat, 8 Jan 2005:

"Nico Coesel" <nico@puntnl.niks> wrote in message
news:41dee5c8.1580411121@news.planet.nl...
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

See...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/Musings/Funnel.gif

I recently visited Auckland (New Zealand). Its now supposed to be
summer over there. I've had rain, hail, clouds and sunshine in one
day. According to a taxi driver its not uncommon to have all four
seasons in one day.

--
Geez, I'd settle for four seasons in a day! We're getting four seasons per
hour at present! It really sucks the big wiener down here at present. :-(

Ken
(Auckland, NZ)

Same at this end. Luckily not here in the south, where it has recently

been unseasonably warm, but torrential rain and Force 10 winds (90 mph)
in middle and northern England, Wales and Scotland. Tomorrow, snow in
Scotland with the wind remaining extremely strong. Blizzards and severe
drifting.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

Jan 7, 2005

John Woodgate wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that bill.sloman@ieee.org wrote (in
1105092913.800173.221300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com&gt about 'OT:
Wild
Weather', on Fri, 7 Jan 2005:

Jim would seem to be a few years behind the game. The present state
of
the debate is that it is generally accepted that global warming is
real.
The Greenland and Antarctic ice cores collected in recent years have

provided a pretty comprehensive and convincing picture of climate
flucuations over the past few hundred thousand years, and some
indications of the mechanisms involved.

<snip>

The cores show some very rapid changes in climate as well as very
much
slower ones. These need to be correlated with what is known about the
effects of continental drift. For example, the climate of the north
coast of India, while it was migrating north from near Madagascar,
was
very different from what it was when the north coast was not even a
memory, and certainly very different from what it is now.

I think you need to look at the time-scales involved. Continents drift
at less than 10cm per year, which is one kilometre in 100,000 years.
-------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

John Woodgate · Jan 8, 2005

I read in sci.electronics.design that Mark Fergerson <nunya@biz.ness>
wrote (in <hTEDd.52068$Cl3.49016@fed1read03&gt

about 'OT: Wild Weather',
on Fri, 7 Jan 2005:

I thought British food was anything at all, boiled for three or four
hours. ;&gt

That can be still found if you want it, but it's rare now.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

OT: Wild Weather

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