OT: Why there are no new jobs

[Tom Miller]

"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:iZadna2WAKarSpDLnZ2dnUU7-X-dnZ2d@supernews.com...

On 10/01/2015 08:39 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 5:05:47 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com
wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 2:23:19 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 12:57:40 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com
wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 12:13:10 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 10/01/2015 12:05 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 08:05:20 -0700, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-09-30 12:26 PM, John Larkin wrote:

The best tax is sales tax. If you want a Porsche or a 4K teevee,
buy
it and pay the tax.


And then when you sell the Porsche the next guy must pay sales tax
again. A double-dipping grab at its finest.

There is an argument that used stuff should not be taxed. That lets
poor people buy used things cheaper.


The rich folks would buy the Porsche in Oregon, pay no tax and
"officially" keep it there for a while.

I was thinking about a national sales tax to replace the income tax,
and especially replace multiple business taxes. Imports now have a
huge advantage over USA products, and a sales tax on both would
equalize things and create US jobs.

But politicians don't use logic, or work for the greater good, so it
won't happen.

The main problem is the double taxation of accumulated assets due to
the
change. It wouldn't be such a problem with houses, say, since
everybody's income would effectively go up to match the tax. Normal
IRAs and 401(k)s would be okay too, since they're pre-tax. With
after-tax financial assets (including Roth IRAs) it would be a real
blow. It would also hurt LLCs as well (such as mine), since I can
expense everything I buy for the business.

The Fair Tax is a proposal for a nat'l sales tax like John's, that
would replace
all other federal taxes (corporate, SS, Medicare, personal income,
etc.). The FT
has a 'prebate' provision that sends every citizen a fixed
check--everyone gets
the same, regardless of how rich or poor--for the tax on their basic
living
expense, then taxes all sales of NEW goods (not used) at XX%, XX ~=22.
That's
a simple way of capturing XX percent of GDP to fund the federal
government, with
a minimum of hassles.

It sounds OK.. but I see a lot of details that are tricky.
Do I pay tax when I buy a new home?

Yes.

(but not a used house?) Correct. It was already taxed.

What makes a house used? (Say I build my own home and then
sell it.. in ten years, in one year, in one week?)

Dunno. Would have to set by reasonable rules.

If I have a plumber come in and do some work, I pay no tax.(?)

Taxed, I think.

What about if I hire someone to make furniture for me?
I use it for one year and then sell it. tax or no tax?

Taxed, IIRC.

And then the whole business/ OEM thing. As a business
I buy some stuff to put in a product. Do I pay tax on the stuff?

No. Only retail sales. Businesses wouldn't pay taxes at all.

Woah, The plumber pays tax, (which he passes along to me.)
But if a Businesses has a plumber come in it's tax free?

OK, where do I sign up to become my own businesses?
(I'm thinking my shower is my most important...
businesses aid... (no doubt) and it's got a leak.)

You can try deducting that as a business expense today, if you're brave.

Of course, if the IRS finds out, they'll crucify you. Keeping a
squeaky-clean separation between business and personal expenses helps a
lot with sleeping soundly. I wouldn't expect that to be very different
under an all-sales-tax system.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

Be careful taking a business deduction for a home office. You lose the
capital gains tax exclusion for the last sale of your house.

 

[krw]

On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 15:46:33 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

On 2015-09-30 7:24 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 09:37:27 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2015-09-28 5:57 PM, krw wrote:
On Mon, 28 Sep 2015 14:12:57 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2015-09-26 4:00 PM, krw wrote:
On Sat, 26 Sep 2015 08:17:08 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2015-09-24 10:00 PM, rickman wrote:
On 9/24/2015 8:23 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-09-24 1:37 PM, rickman wrote:


[...]

... Seems like plenty of folks are trying to get into the
US to have those. H-1B visas ring a bell? Obviously we still have a
very competitive market for Engineering.


Sure. Engineering jobs are plentiful here. I want to partially retire
and my clients don't let me.

H-1B is abused. People often come in because making $35k/year is still
better than making $15k where they came from. This abuse is trivially
easy to stop and I have explained numerous times how. Sad to say but it
seems the only other person that seems to understand how or is willing
to even say it is ... Donald Trump :-(

My employer hires boatloads of H1B[*] programmers. I don't think
they're underpaid. The salaries range from $75K to somewhere around
$125K. Without H1Bs, all of the jobs would likely be somewhere else,
though they've started moving some of that work off-shore anyway (for
tax reasons, I'm sure).


Then you employer adheres to the letter of the law. That's what H1B is
supposed to do, bring in talent where we can't find suitable US engineers.

When I said "all of the jobs", I meant mine too. There likely
wouldn't be any presence in the US.


Exactly. If one would curb H-1B and thereby companies would be forced to
leave some employees overseas then they will eventually move the whole
operations overseas. Because it would make sense, not so much
financially but to facilitate collaboration.

This is something leftists will likely never understand. I have been
part of a few location decisions and it is mindboggling how fast and how
final that process is.


[*] All H1B job postings have to be displayed on company boards, along
with descriptions and salaries. These listings have from one to over
a hundred positions each, so there are a *lot* of jobs involved. The
number is sorta amazing since there are only 65K H1Bs allowed.


We had our ads everywhere, with the IEEE jobs board being one of the
most likely sources of good candidates. To our surprise we even found a
good analog guy though that (but needed more than one). Problem is, in
consequence another company lost a good analog guy because of us hiring
him away. So not importing one didn't help our country.

Our HR people are constantly complaining that they can't find the
right people. Obviously they're not willing to pay enough but you're
right, that would just shuffle the deck, from a national standpoint.
It wouldn't hurt the profession, though.


Above you wrote "The salaries range from $75K to somewhere around
$125K". $125k is a princely salary for an engineer, at least outside
Silicon Valley. If that doesn't attract talent then chances are there
aren't enough people available. Plus that salary level indicates a trend
towards a zero-sum game where, inside one country, Peter begins to rob
Paul and vice versa. That is not good for an economy.

The Brat is working on her MBA at Berkeley. She reports that there is
a lot of discussion of offshoring, with the emphasis that it often
doesn't work very well.

I've seen high-tech companies move manufacturing and engineering
offshore with pretty disastrous results. ...


With engineering I have often seen poor result when companies offshore.
I just went through a case with a vendor and it cost us more than two
months of schedule slip.

We're doing OK. We *are* the off-shoring. ;-)

... I guess it does make sense
for Apple to use Chinese child labor at 17 cents an hour to make $600
iPhones.


Production will always be offshored. The more unions strangle employers
here in the US the more jobs will leave. It is foolish to stick the head
into the sand about it like some do. It's a fact and I have seen it
first hand many times. Like one of my older designs that is still in
production, initially produced in Southern California and when that
gradually turn socialist it went to Guangdong. Those jobs will never
come back.

Our production was moved to Mexico in '08. It certainly hasn't all
been roses but better than China.

 

[krw]

On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 08:05:20 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com>
wrote:

On 2015-09-30 12:26 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 10:18:08 -0700, Joerg <news@analogconsultants.com
wrote:

On 2015-09-29 7:45 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Wednesday, 30 September 2015 00:46:52 UTC+10, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-09-28 6:31 PM, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Tuesday, 29 September 2015 07:42:09 UTC+10, Joerg wrote:

[...]

Scandinavia is a different story where people can get taxed out
of their homes like it used to be in California until the
taxpayers revolted.

Not a story I've heard, but I'm not in the market for right-wing
anti-socialist propaganda. You really need to post a link to an
example of this terrifying behaviour.

That has nothing to do with propaganda. It is based on personal
friends whom I trust and who aren't very political.

In Scandinavia or California? ...


Both. But in California the voters revolted and got it stopped. I also
met people in other states such as New York (no ten horses will get me
to live there).

Prop 13 is weird and wonderful. I pay 1/4 the property tax of my
neighbor, who has basically the identical house, but he just bought
it.


Property taxes are un-American. IMHO they should at least be based on
square footage and acreage (not on sales price) _and_ capped at 2%
yearly increase max or inflation, whichever is lower. Then it's fair to
everyone including the person who has to move.

Aren't they? Here, the sales price defines the assessed valuation for
the first year (a sale *defines* the value). After that it's scaled
to "equivalent sales", so my taxes have about doubled because I bought
at the bottom and basically stole the house (from FNMA ;-).

The odd thing is that when values go down, so does the government's
income. Vermont was similar, though they had a town-wide assessment
(at least) every ten years, but the tax rates weren't constant, rather
the rate was set every year as the town budget divided by the value of
all of the taxable property.

The best tax is sales tax. If you want a Porsche or a 4K teevee, buy
it and pay the tax.


And then when you sell the Porsche the next guy must pay sales tax
again. A double-dipping grab at its finest.

The "Fair Tax" doesn't tax the second transfer.

The rich folks would buy the Porsche in Oregon, pay no tax and
"officially" keep it there for a while.

They would have to declare Oregon residency, then would probably get
gigged for out-of-state income tax.

 

[krw]

On Thu, 1 Oct 2015 11:23:05 -0700 (PDT), George Herold
<gherold@teachspin.com> wrote:

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 12:57:40 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 12:13:10 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 10/01/2015 12:05 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 08:05:20 -0700, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-09-30 12:26 PM, John Larkin wrote:

The best tax is sales tax. If you want a Porsche or a 4K teevee, buy
it and pay the tax.


And then when you sell the Porsche the next guy must pay sales tax
again. A double-dipping grab at its finest.

There is an argument that used stuff should not be taxed. That lets
poor people buy used things cheaper.


The rich folks would buy the Porsche in Oregon, pay no tax and
"officially" keep it there for a while.

I was thinking about a national sales tax to replace the income tax,
and especially replace multiple business taxes. Imports now have a
huge advantage over USA products, and a sales tax on both would
equalize things and create US jobs.

But politicians don't use logic, or work for the greater good, so it
won't happen.

The main problem is the double taxation of accumulated assets due to the
change. It wouldn't be such a problem with houses, say, since
everybody's income would effectively go up to match the tax. Normal
IRAs and 401(k)s would be okay too, since they're pre-tax. With
after-tax financial assets (including Roth IRAs) it would be a real
blow. It would also hurt LLCs as well (such as mine), since I can
expense everything I buy for the business.

The Fair Tax is a proposal for a nat'l sales tax like John's, that would replace
all other federal taxes (corporate, SS, Medicare, personal income, etc.). The FT
has a 'prebate' provision that sends every citizen a fixed check--everyone gets
the same, regardless of how rich or poor--for the tax on their basic living
expense, then taxes all sales of NEW goods (not used) at XX%, XX ~=22. That's
a simple way of capturing XX percent of GDP to fund the federal government, with
a minimum of hassles.

It sounds OK.. but I see a lot of details that are tricky.
Do I pay tax when I buy a new home? (but not a used house?)
What makes a house used? (Say I build my own home and then
sell it.. in ten years, in one year, in one week?)

Did you occupy it? If so, you pay the tax. If not (you're only
the builder), then the next guy pays. Somebody's gotta pay. ;-)

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Friday, 2 October 2015 13:03:18 UTC+10, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 8:40:05 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 5:05:47 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 2:23:19 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 12:57:40 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 12:13:10 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 10/01/2015 12:05 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 08:05:20 -0700, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-09-30 12:26 PM, John Larkin wrote:

The best tax is sales tax. If you want a Porsche or a 4K teevee, buy
it and pay the tax.


And then when you sell the Porsche the next guy must pay sales tax
again. A double-dipping grab at its finest.

There is an argument that used stuff should not be taxed. That lets
poor people buy used things cheaper.


The rich folks would buy the Porsche in Oregon, pay no tax and
"officially" keep it there for a while.

I was thinking about a national sales tax to replace the income tax,
and especially replace multiple business taxes. Imports now have a
huge advantage over USA products, and a sales tax on both would
equalize things and create US jobs.

But politicians don't use logic, or work for the greater good, so it
won't happen.

The main problem is the double taxation of accumulated assets due to the
change. It wouldn't be such a problem with houses, say, since
everybody's income would effectively go up to match the tax. Normal
IRAs and 401(k)s would be okay too, since they're pre-tax. With
after-tax financial assets (including Roth IRAs) it would be a real
blow. It would also hurt LLCs as well (such as mine), since I can
expense everything I buy for the business.

The Fair Tax is a proposal for a nat'l sales tax like John's, that would replace
all other federal taxes (corporate, SS, Medicare, personal income, etc.). The FT
has a 'prebate' provision that sends every citizen a fixed check--everyone gets
the same, regardless of how rich or poor--for the tax on their basic living
expense, then taxes all sales of NEW goods (not used) at XX%, XX ~=22. That's
a simple way of capturing XX percent of GDP to fund the federal government, with
a minimum of hassles.

It sounds OK.. but I see a lot of details that are tricky.
Do I pay tax when I buy a new home?

Yes.

(but not a used house?) Correct. It was already taxed.

What makes a house used? (Say I build my own home and then
sell it.. in ten years, in one year, in one week?)

Dunno. Would have to set by reasonable rules.

If I have a plumber come in and do some work, I pay no tax.(?)

Taxed, I think.

What about if I hire someone to make furniture for me?
I use it for one year and then sell it. tax or no tax?

Taxed, IIRC.

And then the whole business/ OEM thing. As a business
I buy some stuff to put in a product. Do I pay tax on the stuff?

No. Only retail sales. Businesses wouldn't pay taxes at all.

Woah, The plumber pays tax, (which he passes along to me.)

No, you pay the tax. The plumber collects it.

But if a Businesses has a plumber come in it's tax free?

I'm not sure--it has been a while, and I prefer a flat tax anyhow. That's
politically simple, 80% as good, and reasonably feasible.

There's a Fair Tax website though, and lots of people who are very
enthusiastic about it.

OK, where do I sign up to become my own businesses?
(I'm thinking my shower is my most important...
businesses aid... (no doubt) and it's got a leak.)

George H.
(you skipped the VAT question... that seems
even more complicated... the final seller
pays all the tax?)

VAT tax is paid by everyone in the supply chain every time they "add value."
Sounds like an ideal mess to me, an optimal method of discouraging
adding value.

It works fine in practice. The "added value" is just the difference between what you pay and what you charge. In certain circumstances you can get money back from the VAT administration - the NSW branch of the IEEE did it reliably.

It's paperwork, but reputedly simpler than what it replaced.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Friday, 2 October 2015 13:16:58 UTC+10, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 9:13:36 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 5:05:47 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 2:23:19 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 12:57:40 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo..com wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 12:13:10 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 10/01/2015 12:05 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 08:05:20 -0700, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-09-30 12:26 PM, John Larkin wrote:

The best tax is sales tax. If you want a Porsche or a 4K teevee, buy
it and pay the tax.


And then when you sell the Porsche the next guy must pay sales tax
again. A double-dipping grab at its finest.

There is an argument that used stuff should not be taxed. That lets
poor people buy used things cheaper.


The rich folks would buy the Porsche in Oregon, pay no tax and
"officially" keep it there for a while.

I was thinking about a national sales tax to replace the income tax,
and especially replace multiple business taxes. Imports now have a
huge advantage over USA products, and a sales tax on both would
equalize things and create US jobs.

But politicians don't use logic, or work for the greater good, so it
won't happen.

The main problem is the double taxation of accumulated assets due to the
change. It wouldn't be such a problem with houses, say, since
everybody's income would effectively go up to match the tax. Normal
IRAs and 401(k)s would be okay too, since they're pre-tax. With
after-tax financial assets (including Roth IRAs) it would be a real
blow. It would also hurt LLCs as well (such as mine), since I can
expense everything I buy for the business.

The Fair Tax is a proposal for a nat'l sales tax like John's, that would replace
all other federal taxes (corporate, SS, Medicare, personal income, etc.). The FT
has a 'prebate' provision that sends every citizen a fixed check--everyone gets
the same, regardless of how rich or poor--for the tax on their basic living
expense, then taxes all sales of NEW goods (not used) at XX%, XX ~=22. That's
a simple way of capturing XX percent of GDP to fund the federal government, with
a minimum of hassles.

It sounds OK.. but I see a lot of details that are tricky.
Do I pay tax when I buy a new home?

Yes.

(but not a used house?) Correct. It was already taxed.

What makes a house used? (Say I build my own home and then
sell it.. in ten years, in one year, in one week?)

Dunno. Would have to set by reasonable rules.

If I have a plumber come in and do some work, I pay no tax.(?)

Taxed, I think.

What about if I hire someone to make furniture for me?
I use it for one year and then sell it. tax or no tax?

Taxed, IIRC.

And then the whole business/ OEM thing. As a business
I buy some stuff to put in a product. Do I pay tax on the stuff?

No. Only retail sales. Businesses wouldn't pay taxes at all.

Then I sell it. How much tax... do we get the whole VAT type
thing in Europe?

What about taxes on assets, stocks, bonds, companies, rental property?

No tax, IIRC, except rentals, where I'm not sure.

It seems to me I can spin all sorts of "deals" where by I add value
but pay no tax. I just fear that those with lots of money
will be able to "game" the system, where us poor slobs in the
middle class carry the load.

Mind you I have no problem changing our current tax structure.

(First thing (as I've said before) is get rid of the payroll tax that
employer's pay on the behave of their employee's... Everyone* gets a
~7% raise and then see's their SS, medicare etc taxes go up by 7%....
But at least they see the money on their W2.)

I like that a lot. I like for things to be honest, out in the open.
Currently they're not.
(How about disclosure of all campaign contributions?)

I do not like the Fair Tax for two reasons, first, because I don't like the idea
of every single American coming to expect a regular check from the government
(for the "prebate"). I think that's bad psychology.

Huh, I'm not getting any checks? Are you?

It's part of the Fair Tax. They call it the "Prebate." I explained the
workings briefly above.

"a 'prebate' provision that sends every citizen a fixed check--everyone gets
the same, regardless of how rich or poor--for the tax on their basic living
expense,"

Second, it's unlikely to happen because the 16th has to be repealed first, and
there's an enormous danger that doesn't happen and we wind up with just a new
tax.

An easy compromise that's doable would be a flat income tax with no
fancy gimmicks (ideally not even the popular deductions--they're all handouts
for special interests, even us). Or, if need be, two tiers based on income
and one fixed large deduction. Even that's a lot better.

Defining what is and is not "income" is about the same as
sales... Capital gains, interest, dividends.
I don't think there are easy answers.

We already have those definitions. Most of the complication in the tax code
comes from special deductions, and multiple rates for various things.

Companies shouldn't be taxed at all--it's an unnecessary burden, and an
inefficient way to collect monies ultimately paid by the customer. It's also
dishonest, a way of hiding a tax from the consumer that he nonetheless pays.

Taxing companies does capture tax on business that eventually goes outside the country. Granting the ingenuity with which international companies manage their tax affairs, this isn't working quite as well as it might. I can't say I ever understood a Double Dutch Irish Sandwich, but it came up in a newspaper article on the subject.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_Irish_arrangement

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

On Thursday, September 24, 2015 at 3:52:44 PM UTC-4, Robert Baer wrote:
[...]

That's the offer Amerika gives its entrepreneurs. And the idiots in
Washington wonder why there are no new jobs...

Latest jobs report:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_ECONOMY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-02-08-33-31

WASHINGTON (AP) -- U.S. hiring slowed sharply in September, and job gains for July and August were lower than previously thought, a sour note for a labor market that had been steadily improving.

The Labor Department says employers added just 142,000 jobs in September, depressed by job cuts by manufacturers and oil drillers. The unemployment rate remained 5.1 percent, but only because more Americans stopped looking for work and were no longer counted as unemployed.

All told, the proportion of Americans who either have a job or are looking for one fell to a 38-year low.
__________

James Arthur

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Friday, 2 October 2015 23:00:20 UTC+10, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Thursday, September 24, 2015 at 3:52:44 PM UTC-4, Robert Baer wrote:
[...]

That's the offer Amerika gives its entrepreneurs. And the idiots in
Washington wonder why there are no new jobs...

Latest jobs report:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_ECONOMY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-02-08-33-31

WASHINGTON (AP) -- U.S. hiring slowed sharply in September, and job gains for July and August were lower than previously thought, a sour note for a labor market that had been steadily improving.

The Labor Department says employers added just 142,000 jobs in September, depressed by job cuts by manufacturers and oil drillers. The unemployment rate remained 5.1 percent, but only because more Americans stopped looking for work and were no longer counted as unemployed.

All told, the proportion of Americans who either have a job or are looking for one fell to a 38-year low.

Of course, even Americans are living longer these days, and spending more time on getting higher education than they did 38 years ago, so it probably doesn't mean that Obama is a total disaster, though James Arthur would like us to see it that way.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 10/02/2015 12:24 AM, Tom Miller wrote:

"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:iZadna2WAKarSpDLnZ2dnUU7-X-dnZ2d@supernews.com...
On 10/01/2015 08:39 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 5:05:47 PM UTC-4,
dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 2:23:19 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 12:57:40 PM UTC-4,
dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 12:13:10 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 10/01/2015 12:05 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 08:05:20 -0700, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-09-30 12:26 PM, John Larkin wrote:

The best tax is sales tax. If you want a Porsche or a 4K
teevee, buy
it and pay the tax.


And then when you sell the Porsche the next guy must pay sales tax
again. A double-dipping grab at its finest.

There is an argument that used stuff should not be taxed. That lets
poor people buy used things cheaper.


The rich folks would buy the Porsche in Oregon, pay no tax and
"officially" keep it there for a while.

I was thinking about a national sales tax to replace the income
tax,
and especially replace multiple business taxes. Imports now have a
huge advantage over USA products, and a sales tax on both would
equalize things and create US jobs.

But politicians don't use logic, or work for the greater good,
so it
won't happen.

The main problem is the double taxation of accumulated assets due
to the
change. It wouldn't be such a problem with houses, say, since
everybody's income would effectively go up to match the tax. Normal
IRAs and 401(k)s would be okay too, since they're pre-tax. With
after-tax financial assets (including Roth IRAs) it would be a real
blow. It would also hurt LLCs as well (such as mine), since I can
expense everything I buy for the business.

The Fair Tax is a proposal for a nat'l sales tax like John's, that
would replace
all other federal taxes (corporate, SS, Medicare, personal income,
etc.). The FT
has a 'prebate' provision that sends every citizen a fixed
check--everyone gets
the same, regardless of how rich or poor--for the tax on their
basic living
expense, then taxes all sales of NEW goods (not used) at XX%, XX
~=22. That's
a simple way of capturing XX percent of GDP to fund the federal
government, with
a minimum of hassles.

It sounds OK.. but I see a lot of details that are tricky.
Do I pay tax when I buy a new home?

Yes.

(but not a used house?) Correct. It was already taxed.

What makes a house used? (Say I build my own home and then
sell it.. in ten years, in one year, in one week?)

Dunno. Would have to set by reasonable rules.

If I have a plumber come in and do some work, I pay no tax.(?)

Taxed, I think.

What about if I hire someone to make furniture for me?
I use it for one year and then sell it. tax or no tax?

Taxed, IIRC.

And then the whole business/ OEM thing. As a business
I buy some stuff to put in a product. Do I pay tax on the stuff?

No. Only retail sales. Businesses wouldn't pay taxes at all.

Woah, The plumber pays tax, (which he passes along to me.)
But if a Businesses has a plumber come in it's tax free?

OK, where do I sign up to become my own businesses?
(I'm thinking my shower is my most important...
businesses aid... (no doubt) and it's got a leak.)

You can try deducting that as a business expense today, if you're brave.

Of course, if the IRS finds out, they'll crucify you. Keeping a
squeaky-clean separation between business and personal expenses helps
a lot with sleeping soundly. I wouldn't expect that to be very
different under an all-sales-tax system.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


Be careful taking a business deduction for a home office. You lose the
capital gains tax exclusion for the last sale of your house.

It's also a great way to get audited. Putting anything much on Schedule
C is a bad idea. It only costs $1k or so to start an LLC (including
paying people to do the required advertising). My tax guy charges about
$1500 per year, and does all my books, which is cheeep.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

 

On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 4:20:08 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 2 Oct 2015 06:00:09 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com
wrote:

On Thursday, September 24, 2015 at 3:52:44 PM UTC-4, Robert Baer wrote:
[...]

That's the offer Amerika gives its entrepreneurs. And the idiots in
Washington wonder why there are no new jobs...

Latest jobs report:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_ECONOMY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-02-08-33-31

WASHINGTON (AP) -- U.S. hiring slowed sharply in September, and job gains for July and August were lower than previously thought, a sour note for a labor market that had been steadily improving.

The Labor Department says employers added just 142,000 jobs in September, depressed by job cuts by manufacturers and oil drillers. The unemployment rate remained 5.1 percent, but only because more Americans stopped looking for work and were no longer counted as unemployed.

All told, the proportion of Americans who either have a job or are looking for one fell to a 38-year low.
__________


The unemployment rate is meaningless. What matters is the fraction of
the population that works. Even better, exclude government workers.

Useful output = z*(workers) - 8z*(gov't workers)

Probably too generous--regulators can do a lot of harm. One spiteful
egg-headed regulator, for example(*), created Obamacare's 'can't keep
your plan' regs.

(*) Jeanne Lambrew, PhD

Cheers,
James

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

Den lřrdag den 3. oktober 2015 kl. 00.58.48 UTC+2 skrev P E Schoen:

"John Larkin" wrote in message
news:0r1u0b1vp8nuvu30tqrrkgbilomsk5u6qo@4ax.com...

I don't blame any company for using foreign labor to save money. I blame
US government policy for making US labor so expensive.

US labor is expensive because of the high cost of living and the need for
people to pay for their own health insurance and retirement. Of course, the
cost of living is also inflated because of overvalued housing and individual
expectations of material measures of prosperity.

Our society is also burdened with "hidden" costs of crime, which drives up
insurance rates, and the "war on drugs", which requires huge expenditures on
law enforcement and incarceration, with no effective rehabilitation, which
makes the prisons essentially schools that teach criminals to become better
at lawless activities, and more violent.

Paul

but it keeps that police,prisons,police gear manufacturer, etc. in jobs

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=China&country2=United+States

-Lasse

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 2 Oct 2015 06:00:09 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com
wrote:

On Thursday, September 24, 2015 at 3:52:44 PM UTC-4, Robert Baer wrote:
[...]

That's the offer Amerika gives its entrepreneurs. And the idiots in
Washington wonder why there are no new jobs...

Latest jobs report:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_ECONOMY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-02-08-33-31

WASHINGTON (AP) -- U.S. hiring slowed sharply in September, and job gains for July and August were lower than previously thought, a sour note for a labor market that had been steadily improving.

The Labor Department says employers added just 142,000 jobs in September, depressed by job cuts by manufacturers and oil drillers. The unemployment rate remained 5.1 percent, but only because more Americans stopped looking for work and were no longer counted as unemployed.

All told, the proportion of Americans who either have a job or are looking for one fell to a 38-year low.
__________

James Arthur

The unemployment rate is meaningless. What matters is the fraction of
the population that works. Even better, exclude government workers.

 

[krw]

On Fri, 02 Oct 2015 13:20:00 -0700, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 2 Oct 2015 06:00:09 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com
wrote:

On Thursday, September 24, 2015 at 3:52:44 PM UTC-4, Robert Baer wrote:
[...]

That's the offer Amerika gives its entrepreneurs. And the idiots in
Washington wonder why there are no new jobs...

Latest jobs report:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_ECONOMY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-02-08-33-31

WASHINGTON (AP) -- U.S. hiring slowed sharply in September, and job gains for July and August were lower than previously thought, a sour note for a labor market that had been steadily improving.

The Labor Department says employers added just 142,000 jobs in September, depressed by job cuts by manufacturers and oil drillers. The unemployment rate remained 5.1 percent, but only because more Americans stopped looking for work and were no longer counted as unemployed.

All told, the proportion of Americans who either have a job or are looking for one fell to a 38-year low.
__________

James Arthur

The unemployment rate is meaningless. What matters is the fraction of
the population that works. Even better, exclude government workers.

But the Slowmans of the world will tell you that it's good that there
is more leisure time and even better that there are so many government
workers to provide them all the services they're entitled to.
Remember, Slowman is really good at it.

 

[krw]

On Fri, 2 Oct 2015 00:24:57 -0400, "Tom Miller"
<tmiller11147@verizon.net> wrote:

"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:iZadna2WAKarSpDLnZ2dnUU7-X-dnZ2d@supernews.com...
On 10/01/2015 08:39 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 5:05:47 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com
wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 2:23:19 PM UTC-4, George Herold wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 12:57:40 PM UTC-4, dagmarg...@yahoo.com
wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 12:13:10 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 10/01/2015 12:05 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 08:05:20 -0700, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-09-30 12:26 PM, John Larkin wrote:

The best tax is sales tax. If you want a Porsche or a 4K teevee,
buy
it and pay the tax.


And then when you sell the Porsche the next guy must pay sales tax
again. A double-dipping grab at its finest.

There is an argument that used stuff should not be taxed. That lets
poor people buy used things cheaper.


The rich folks would buy the Porsche in Oregon, pay no tax and
"officially" keep it there for a while.

I was thinking about a national sales tax to replace the income tax,
and especially replace multiple business taxes. Imports now have a
huge advantage over USA products, and a sales tax on both would
equalize things and create US jobs.

But politicians don't use logic, or work for the greater good, so it
won't happen.

The main problem is the double taxation of accumulated assets due to
the
change. It wouldn't be such a problem with houses, say, since
everybody's income would effectively go up to match the tax. Normal
IRAs and 401(k)s would be okay too, since they're pre-tax. With
after-tax financial assets (including Roth IRAs) it would be a real
blow. It would also hurt LLCs as well (such as mine), since I can
expense everything I buy for the business.

The Fair Tax is a proposal for a nat'l sales tax like John's, that
would replace
all other federal taxes (corporate, SS, Medicare, personal income,
etc.). The FT
has a 'prebate' provision that sends every citizen a fixed
check--everyone gets
the same, regardless of how rich or poor--for the tax on their basic
living
expense, then taxes all sales of NEW goods (not used) at XX%, XX ~=22.
That's
a simple way of capturing XX percent of GDP to fund the federal
government, with
a minimum of hassles.

It sounds OK.. but I see a lot of details that are tricky.
Do I pay tax when I buy a new home?

Yes.

(but not a used house?) Correct. It was already taxed.

What makes a house used? (Say I build my own home and then
sell it.. in ten years, in one year, in one week?)

Dunno. Would have to set by reasonable rules.

If I have a plumber come in and do some work, I pay no tax.(?)

Taxed, I think.

What about if I hire someone to make furniture for me?
I use it for one year and then sell it. tax or no tax?

Taxed, IIRC.

And then the whole business/ OEM thing. As a business
I buy some stuff to put in a product. Do I pay tax on the stuff?

No. Only retail sales. Businesses wouldn't pay taxes at all.

Woah, The plumber pays tax, (which he passes along to me.)
But if a Businesses has a plumber come in it's tax free?

OK, where do I sign up to become my own businesses?
(I'm thinking my shower is my most important...
businesses aid... (no doubt) and it's got a leak.)

You can try deducting that as a business expense today, if you're brave.

Of course, if the IRS finds out, they'll crucify you. Keeping a
squeaky-clean separation between business and personal expenses helps a
lot with sleeping soundly. I wouldn't expect that to be very different
under an all-sales-tax system.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

Be careful taking a business deduction for a home office. You lose the
capital gains tax exclusion for the last sale of your house.

Not true at all. You might have to recapture some or all of any write
downs on the house but any expenses are fine. In any case, you don't
lose the exclusion at all and it doesn't affect the portion of the
house not claimed as office space.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Saturday, 3 October 2015 07:37:01 UTC+10, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Friday, October 2, 2015 at 4:20:08 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 2 Oct 2015 06:00:09 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com
wrote:

On Thursday, September 24, 2015 at 3:52:44 PM UTC-4, Robert Baer wrote:
[...]

That's the offer Amerika gives its entrepreneurs. And the idiots in
Washington wonder why there are no new jobs...

Latest jobs report:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_ECONOMY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-02-08-33-31

WASHINGTON (AP) -- U.S. hiring slowed sharply in September, and job gains for July and August were lower than previously thought, a sour note for a labor market that had been steadily improving.

The Labor Department says employers added just 142,000 jobs in September, depressed by job cuts by manufacturers and oil drillers. The unemployment rate remained 5.1 percent, but only because more Americans stopped looking for work and were no longer counted as unemployed.

All told, the proportion of Americans who either have a job or are looking for one fell to a 38-year low.
__________


The unemployment rate is meaningless. What matters is the fraction of
the population that works. Even better, exclude government workers.

Useful output = z*(workers) - 8z*(gov't workers)

Probably too generous--regulators can do a lot of harm. One spiteful
egg-headed regulator, for example(*), created Obamacare's 'can't keep
your plan' regs.

(*) Jeanne Lambrew, PhD

Rubbish. Where did the "8" come from?

And the "spiteful can't keep your plan" regulation was that you can't keep it if it doesn't offer all the services that the new act required.

That may be bureaucratic, but it isn't spiteful.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[M Philbrook]

In article <vnkr0blcr79idom65ttgbibjo5cac93u83@4ax.com>, DLU1
@DecadentLinuxUser.org says...

On Thu, 1 Oct 2015 17:20:11 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com Gave
us:


We were discussing the Fair Tax proposal, not current taxation.

Cheers,
James Arthur

Connecticut has no sales tax and they do fine.

Since when?

Last time I looked, we have both Sales and Income tax?
Are we talking about the same place?

Jamie

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Saturday, 3 October 2015 07:58:05 UTC+10, krw wrote:

On Fri, 02 Oct 2015 13:20:00 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Fri, 2 Oct 2015 06:00:09 -0700 (PDT), dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com
wrote:

On Thursday, September 24, 2015 at 3:52:44 PM UTC-4, Robert Baer wrote:
[...]

That's the offer Amerika gives its entrepreneurs. And the idiots in
Washington wonder why there are no new jobs...

Latest jobs report:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_ECONOMY?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-10-02-08-33-31

WASHINGTON (AP) -- U.S. hiring slowed sharply in September, and job gains for July and August were lower than previously thought, a sour note for a labor market that had been steadily improving.

The Labor Department says employers added just 142,000 jobs in September, depressed by job cuts by manufacturers and oil drillers. The unemployment rate remained 5.1 percent, but only because more Americans stopped looking for work and were no longer counted as unemployed.

All told, the proportion of Americans who either have a job or are looking for one fell to a 38-year low.

The unemployment rate is meaningless. What matters is the fraction of
the population that works. Even better, exclude government workers.

But the Slomans of the world will tell you that it's good that there
is more leisure time and even better that there are so many government
workers to provide them all the services they're entitled to.
Remember, Sloman is really good at it.

Krw busy inventing things that he thinks I'd tell you. He's even more out of touch with reality than Jim Thompson, and even more convinced that whatever rubbish he believes is the last word on any subject.

I don't happen to think that having people unemployed is any kind of good thing. There's loads of statistical evidence that the unemployed almost always want work, and try to find it. I'm certainly still responding to job ads, though it's almost certainly a total waste of time.

And what krw and James Arthur don't ever seem to notice is the military is one of the larger pools of government workers, and almost all they ever produce is destruction. They may be incidentally productive from time to time - as in the US Army Engineers - but it's not why they are there.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[M Philbrook]

In article <86412a68-a4e0-4b8e-829c-11fa26bbf0bf@googlegroups.com>,
langwadt@fonz.dk says...

Den fredag den 2. oktober 2015 kl. 02.49.15 UTC+2 skrev DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno:
On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 17:12:18 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> Gave us:

Not much more than it costs to make in China. Pick-and-place machines
cost about the same either place, and there can't be many minutes of
hand labor in the final assembly. Maybe a few dollars cost difference.

The boards are pick and place, but the integration of them into the
case is the hand assembly part. The boards, all the little connectors,
the screen, the battery, the screen protector, the manual, the bag all
the other items like the charger and cord.... all those elements are
hand operations, and they also get tested.

They would cost a lot more made here than over there.

someone did the analysis and there is roughly $7 worth of labor in an
iphone, even if a US worker need 5x that it wouldn't make a huge different
on a $600+ phone

The problem is that all the parts are in China

-Lasse

That and a lot of greed.

Jamie

 

[rickman]

On 10/1/2015 3:54 PM, Joerg wrote:

On 2015-10-01 9:57 AM, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
On Thursday, October 1, 2015 at 12:13:10 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 10/01/2015 12:05 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 08:05:20 -0700, Joerg wrote:
On 2015-09-30 12:26 PM, John Larkin wrote:

The best tax is sales tax. If you want a Porsche or a 4K teevee, buy
it and pay the tax.


And then when you sell the Porsche the next guy must pay sales tax
again. A double-dipping grab at its finest.

There is an argument that used stuff should not be taxed. That lets
poor people buy used things cheaper.


The rich folks would buy the Porsche in Oregon, pay no tax and
"officially" keep it there for a while.

I was thinking about a national sales tax to replace the income tax,
and especially replace multiple business taxes. Imports now have a
huge advantage over USA products, and a sales tax on both would
equalize things and create US jobs.

But politicians don't use logic, or work for the greater good, so it
won't happen.

The main problem is the double taxation of accumulated assets due to the
change. It wouldn't be such a problem with houses, say, since
everybody's income would effectively go up to match the tax. Normal
IRAs and 401(k)s would be okay too, since they're pre-tax. With
after-tax financial assets (including Roth IRAs) it would be a real
blow. It would also hurt LLCs as well (such as mine), since I can
expense everything I buy for the business.

The Fair Tax is a proposal for a nat'l sales tax like John's, that
would replace
all other federal taxes (corporate, SS, Medicare, personal income,
etc.). The FT
has a 'prebate' provision that sends every citizen a fixed
check--everyone gets
the same, regardless of how rich or poor--for the tax on their basic
living
expense, then taxes all sales of NEW goods (not used) at XX%, XX
~=22. That's
a simple way of capturing XX percent of GDP to fund the federal
government, with
a minimum of hassles.

It has the (transitional) problem you mentioned of taxing post-tax
assets like
Roth IRAs, which I brought up in person with one of the plan's authors.
His reply was that they expected politicians to work those things out.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Nobody in their right might would ever believe that to be possible anymore.

The real issue with a 22% Federal sales tax is that it is too high for
people to not try to avoid it. As you mention below, people will be
working the system or working around the system.

... My
suggestion was a tax-free debit card you could use, equal to your Roth
IRA
assets.


And all your other savings, real estate assets, et cetera. It would
literally mean that frugal people would never pay tax anymore until
their dying day, and then some.

This wouldn't apply to "savings". It applies to savings that had
already been subject to income tax. But that would only be the part
invested in a Roth IRA, or the basis of real estate (which is already
deducted when capital gain tax is figured).

The bigger problem is that progressives want a national sales tax as
an *extra*
tax to increase the burden of government, and to keep the existing
mess too.
Preventing that requires repealing the 16th Amendment, no small task.


Here's hoping that all this ends in 2016.

Which progressives "want" a national sales tax? I've never heard anyone
credible promote it and this is one of the very few times I've heard
anyone mention it.

--

Rick

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 20:41:47 -0400, DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUno
<DLU1@DecadentLinuxUser.org> wrote:

On Thu, 01 Oct 2015 17:12:18 -0700, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> Gave us:

Fracking in the USA has driven down the world price of crude to $40 a
barrel. We'd be exporting crude oil if it wasn't illegal.

You missed the point.

Had we been using our own oil since the sixties, the price would be
enormous right now.

Probably not. We'd drill more and use less.