CFL Burns Home Down

[Terry Given]

Eeyore wrote:

Phil Allison wrote:


"Eeysore"

Phil Allison wrote:

It's written on the box ...

** Sometimes there is some tiny print saying " not suitable for
immers" -
or sometimes a weird symbol is used.

Mostly there is no advice about timer switches, movement detector
switches or the like - which can be just as bad.

However - there never any WARNING of there being a FIRE hazard !!!

Plus, once the CFL lamp is separated from the packaging, most have no
usage advice at all.

There is a legal issue here, not simply a technical one.

In truth I don't really disagree with you.

What you are saying is that nitwits should be able to use them without
thinking twice in any fitting. That would be ideal.. It may take a few years

more

though. In the meantime can't they read the damn instructions ?

** Stop thinking like a pedantic engineer and start believing in the dictum
of Murphy - ie, if it can go wrong it will.


I'm well aware of Murphy.



The "instructions" on CFL packaging, such as they exist, are UTTERLY
AMBIGUOUS and therefore TOTALLY USELESS in preventing accidents.


Not in my experience in the UK. Maybe we have better packaging ?

heres a question: have you ever removed a lightbulb from one fitting,
and placed it in another?

CFLs are a * CONSUMER * item sold as a general purpose replacement for the
humble light bulb - the use of which is familiar to everyone.


Yes, I see exactly where you're coming from. The consumer has a reasonable right
to expect equivalent performance. Up til recently the CFL was a product for
'nerds' if you like. Now it needs to be made universal.



It a particular type of CFL cannot be SAFELY installed by a child ( or
vision impaired or non-literate person) in any light socket in the house -
forget performance or life span - then it SHOULD NOT BE ON SALE !!!

Making their use compulsory in every home and lamp socket without compulsory
safety regulations in place is COMPLETE INSANITY.


I agree with you more than you might imagine.



In Australia, we can thank the Global Warming freakoids, the Green Nazis
and the dopey Federal government for this.


Little doubt about that.

Graham

Phil is quite right. these should be able to be plugged by any person
into any fitting without any risk of fire. lots of people *cant* read.
ESL for a start, the truly illiterate etc. And I bet illiterate people
have lightbulbs too.

it is quite remarkable that dimmer operation and the resultant fire
safety issue is *not* covered by relevant standards. I suspect the
standards will eventually catch up though.


Cheers
Terry

 

[Phil Allison]

"Terry Given"

Phil is quite right. these should be able to be plugged by any person into
any fitting without any risk of fire. lots of people *cant* read. ESL for
a start, the truly illiterate etc. And I bet illiterate people have
lightbulbs too.

it is quite remarkable that dimmer operation and the resultant fire safety
issue is *not* covered by relevant standards. I suspect the standards will
eventually catch up though.

** Sure - but only when one of the arrogant pricks who invent them loses
HIS house or HIS kid in a CFL triggered fire.

Strange fact:

In Australia - all lampholders, fluoro ballasts and starters ARE on the
" prescribed items " list and MUST be agency approved.

But CFLs are not.



...... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Terry Given"

Phil is quite right. these should be able to be plugged by any person into
any fitting without any risk of fire. lots of people *cant* read. ESL for
a start, the truly illiterate etc.

** ESL = Eye Sight Limited ??




...... Phil

 

[Eeyore]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Eeysore"
Phil Allison wrote

** Never heard of CRT monitors or TV sets burning home down ??

Actually I haven't. As in NEVER. But this is the UK ! The home of BS. (
British Standards). And the fused plug !

** Well you have now.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/2008/07/17/faulty-tv-set-led-to-fatal-coventry-fire-92746-21356939/
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/insurance/household-insurance/article.html?in_article_id=404453&in_page_id=34

http://exactproductsinc.com/WordPress/?p=942

It is one of the common causes of house fires, since the plastic cases of
most TVs and PC monitors are highly flammable PLUS give off toxic fumes
when burnt.

Hence the dead toddler in the first story.

Sorry, did you dig up these stories from the 70s

** Read the damn dates on the stories

- you congenital, monumental bloody ASS !!

July, 2008 October, 2005 August, 2008 !!!!

It's a FLAMMABLE PLASTIC FIRE !!

Only takes ONE HOT RESISTOR to initiate !!!

For god's sake man - get real.

Hmmmm, a Chinese product with no testing and a falsely applied CE mark perhaps ? Sadly I KNOW that this does sometimes happen.
You've seen examples of similar yourself like the non-isolating isolating transformer.

Unscrupulous people can abuse the self-declaration aspect of CE.

The only way I can see to fix this would be to have guys monitoring imports on a random basis.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Eeysore"
Phil Allison wrote:
"ian field"

What happens if the incandescent bulb burns out?

You can significantly increase the bulb life expectancy by fitting a
surge inrush limiting NTC thermistor salvaged from a scrap SMPSU,

** Bollocks.

Predictable Allison response.

** Yep - a perfectly correct one.

Unlike your mindless, asinine piles of pommy drivel.

NTC thermistors DO help bulb life,

** But not *significantly* !!

As was * required * by the context and the post I replied to.

In theatres and the like where bulbs are hugely expensive, they don't turm them
off fully at the dimmer pack, leaving a quiesecent current, so the initial
'shock' of coming on full is less.

I have no data as to how NTC thermistors improve bulb life but am aware that it
does help if only a bit. And as the Tesco ads say, "every little bit helps" ! An
NTC from an old PC SMPS is unlikely to have the ideal rating however since it's
designed most likely for a larger load.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Terry Given wrote:

Phil is quite right. these should be able to be plugged by any person
into any fitting without any risk of fire. lots of people *cant* read.
ESL for a start, the truly illiterate etc. And I bet illiterate people
have lightbulbs too.

it is quite remarkable that dimmer operation and the resultant fire
safety issue is *not* covered by relevant standards. I suspect the
standards will eventually catch up though.

I find this a tricky one to form a strong opinion on. Early adopters of CFL like
myself KNEW you couldn't dim them.

Now they're being sold alongside the frozen foods in supermarkets, sometimes for less
than an incandescent, you're reaching a different 'audience'.

I'd have though a prominent "not suitable for dimmers" on the pack ought to fix it
except for the totally insane.

Besides that, they shouldn't catch fire anyway if conforming to IEC standards. That
why I buy Philips and Osram CFLs mostly.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Terry Given"

Phil is quite right. these should be able to be plugged by any person into
any fitting without any risk of fire. lots of people *cant* read. ESL for
a start, the truly illiterate etc. And I bet illiterate people have
lightbulbs too.

it is quite remarkable that dimmer operation and the resultant fire safety
issue is *not* covered by relevant standards. I suspect the standards will
eventually catch up though.

** Sure - but only when one of the arrogant pricks who invent them loses
HIS house or HIS kid in a CFL triggered fire.

Strange fact:

In Australia - all lampholders, fluoro ballasts and starters ARE on the
" prescribed items " list and MUST be agency approved.

But CFLs are not.

That is very odd given the el-cheapo Chinese ones around.

Graham

 

[Mik DaDik]

Phil is quite right. these should be able to be plugged by any person into
any fitting without any risk of fire. lots of people *cant* read. ESL for
a start, the truly illiterate etc.


** ESL = Eye Sight Limited ??

English as Second Language... I think is what he meant

Mik

 

[Eeyore]

Mik DaDik wrote:

Phil is quite right. these should be able to be plugged by any person into
any fitting without any risk of fire. lots of people *cant* read. ESL for
a start, the truly illiterate etc.


** ESL = Eye Sight Limited ??

English as Second Language... I think is what he meant

A similar one is EFL (English as a foreign language - a BIG growth area).

Graham

 

[Phil Allison]

"Eeysore"
Phil Allison wrote

** Never heard of CRT monitors or TV sets burning home down ??

Actually I haven't. As in NEVER. But this is the UK ! The home of
BS. (
British Standards). And the fused plug !

** Well you have now.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/2008/07/17/faulty-tv-set-led-to-fatal-coventry-fire-92746-21356939/
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/insurance/household-insurance/article.html?in_article_id=404453&in_page_id=34

http://exactproductsinc.com/WordPress/?p=942

It is one of the common causes of house fires, since the plastic cases
of
most TVs and PC monitors are highly flammable PLUS give off toxic
fumes
when burnt.

Hence the dead toddler in the first story.

Sorry, did you dig up these stories from the 70s

** Read the damn dates on the stories

- you congenital, monumental bloody ASS !!

July, 2008 October, 2005 August, 2008 !!!!

It's a FLAMMABLE PLASTIC FIRE !!

Only takes ONE HOT RESISTOR to initiate !!!

For god's sake man - get real.

Hmmmm, a Chinese product with no testing and a falsely applied CE mark
perhaps ?

** You are 100% WRONG yet again - dickhead.

There is simply NO prohibition on the use of flammable plastic cases for
TV sets and the like.

TV set fires and consequent house fire have been happening since the first
plastic case sets come on the market.



...... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Eeyore"

Phil Allison wrote:
"Terry Given"

Phil is quite right. these should be able to be plugged by any person
into
any fitting without any risk of fire. lots of people *cant* read. ESL
for
a start, the truly illiterate etc. And I bet illiterate people have
lightbulbs too.

it is quite remarkable that dimmer operation and the resultant fire
safety
issue is *not* covered by relevant standards. I suspect the standards
will
eventually catch up though.

** Sure - but only when one of the arrogant pricks who invent them
loses
HIS house or HIS kid in a CFL triggered fire.

Strange fact:

In Australia - all lampholders, fluoro ballasts and starters ARE on
the
" prescribed items " list and MUST be agency approved.

But CFLs are not.

That is very odd given the el-cheapo Chinese ones around.

** It is not odd at all - as a CFL is considered to be simply a "lamp".



....... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Eeyore">
Terry Given wrote:

Phil is quite right. these should be able to be plugged by any person
into any fitting without any risk of fire. lots of people *cant* read.
ESL for a start, the truly illiterate etc. And I bet illiterate people
have lightbulbs too.

it is quite remarkable that dimmer operation and the resultant fire
safety issue is *not* covered by relevant standards. I suspect the
standards will eventually catch up though.

I find this a tricky one to form a strong opinion on. Early adopters of
CFL like
myself KNEW you couldn't dim them.

Now they're being sold alongside the frozen foods in supermarkets,
sometimes for less
than an incandescent, you're reaching a different 'audience'.

I'd have though a prominent "not suitable for dimmers" on the pack ought
to fix it
except for the totally insane.

** But then you ARE totally insane.

Cos those words are merely usage advice - not a safety warning at all !!

No printed warning could ever be adequate to cover the risk of house fire
and toxic fumes that goes with CFLs that are not dimmer safe.



...... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Eeysore"

Phil Allison wrote

** Never heard of CRT monitors or TV sets burning home down ??

Actually I haven't. As in NEVER. But this is the UK ! The home of
BS. (
British Standards). And the fused plug !

** Well you have now.

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/2008/07/17/faulty-tv-set-led-to-fatal-coventry-fire-92746-21356939/

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/insurance/household-insurance/article.html?in_article_id=404453&in_page_id=34

http://exactproductsinc.com/WordPress/?p=942

It is one of the common causes of house fires, since the plastic cases
of
most TVs and PC monitors are highly flammable PLUS give off toxic
fumes
when burnt.

Hence the dead toddler in the first story.

Sorry, did you dig up these stories from the 70s

** Read the damn dates on the stories

- you congenital, monumental bloody ASS !!

July, 2008 October, 2005 August, 2008 !!!!

It's a FLAMMABLE PLASTIC FIRE !!

Only takes ONE HOT RESISTOR to initiate !!!

For god's sake man - get real.

Ok, reading the report,

** There are THREE reports - you ASS !!


the fire was described as 'small'. That might meet IEC regs conceivably as
long as it was

self-extinguishing.

** But it was not and the toxic fumes killed a child - despite the mother
being home at the time and acting promptly.

The other 2 reports are of EXTENSIVE fire damage to homes caused by a TV
set fire.

What killed the child was *smoke* and I know of no regulations anywhere
covering that for electrical appliances.

** It was toxic smoke too - you ASS.

That is what most plastics generate when they burn !!!



...... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Eeysore"

Phil Allison wrote:
"ian field"

What happens if the incandescent bulb burns out?

You can significantly increase the bulb life expectancy by
fitting a
surge inrush limiting NTC thermistor salvaged from a scrap SMPSU,

** Bollocks.

Predictable Allison response.

** Yep - a perfectly correct one.

Unlike your mindless, asinine piles of pommy drivel.

NTC thermistors DO help bulb life,

** But not *significantly* !!

As was * required * by the context and the post I replied to.



I have no data as to how NTC thermistors improve bulb life

** Then you have no idea that they do - you ASS.

but am aware that it does help if only a bit.

** Then you were 100% wrong to contradict my post.

Only dimming ( ie reducing the voltage to) an incandescent lamp will extend
its life significantly.


...... Phil

 

[Eeyore]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Eeysore"
Phil Allison wrote

** Never heard of CRT monitors or TV sets burning home down ??

Actually I haven't. As in NEVER. But this is the UK ! The home of
BS. ( British Standards). And the fused plug !

** Well you have now.
http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/2008/07/17/faulty-tv-set-led-to-fatal-coventry-fire-92746-21356939/
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/insurance/household-insurance/article.html?in_article_id=404453&in_page_id=34

http://exactproductsinc.com/WordPress/?p=942

It is one of the common causes of house fires, since the plastic cases
of
most TVs and PC monitors are highly flammable PLUS give off toxic
fumes
when burnt.

Hence the dead toddler in the first story.

Sorry, did you dig up these stories from the 70s

** Read the damn dates on the stories

- you congenital, monumental bloody ASS !!

July, 2008 October, 2005 August, 2008 !!!!

It's a FLAMMABLE PLASTIC FIRE !!

Only takes ONE HOT RESISTOR to initiate !!!

For god's sake man - get real.

Hmmmm, a Chinese product with no testing and a falsely applied CE mark
perhaps ?

** You are 100% WRONG yet again - dickhead.

There is simply NO prohibition on the use of flammable plastic cases for
TV sets and the like.

TV set fires and consequent house fire have been happening since the first
plastic case sets come on the market.

BSEN 60065 does in fact establish maximum temps for all case and internal materials I can think of with the specific intention of
fire prevention along with user burns.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Eeyore"
Phil Allison wrote:
"Terry Given"

Phil is quite right. these should be able to be plugged by any person
into any fitting without any risk of fire. lots of people *cant* read.
ESL
for a start, the truly illiterate etc. And I bet illiterate people have

lightbulbs too.

it is quite remarkable that dimmer operation and the resultant fire
safety issue is *not* covered by relevant standards. I suspect the
standards
will eventually catch up though.

** Sure - but only when one of the arrogant pricks who invent them
loses HIS house or HIS kid in a CFL triggered fire.

Strange fact:

In Australia - all lampholders, fluoro ballasts and starters ARE on
the " prescribed items " list and MUST be agency approved.

But CFLs are not.

That is very odd given the el-cheapo Chinese ones around.

** It is not odd at all - as a CFL is considered to be simply a "lamp".

Whereas it is in fact an 'apparatus'.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Eeyore"
Terry Given wrote:

Phil is quite right. these should be able to be plugged by any person
into any fitting without any risk of fire. lots of people *cant* read.
ESL for a start, the truly illiterate etc. And I bet illiterate people
have lightbulbs too.

it is quite remarkable that dimmer operation and the resultant fire
safety issue is *not* covered by relevant standards. I suspect the
standards will eventually catch up though.

I find this a tricky one to form a strong opinion on. Early adopters of
CFL like myself KNEW you couldn't dim them.

Now they're being sold alongside the frozen foods in supermarkets,
sometimes for less than an incandescent, you're reaching a different
'audience'.

I'd have though a prominent "not suitable for dimmers" on the pack ought
to fix it except for the totally insane.

** But then you ARE totally insane.

Cos those words are merely usage advice - not a safety warning at all !!

No printed warning

So how would you do it ?

could ever be adequate to cover the risk of house fire
and toxic fumes that goes with CFLs that are not dimmer safe.

Fire and smoke risk come from non-adherence to standards.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Eeysore"
Phil Allison wrote:
"ian field"

What happens if the incandescent bulb burns out?

You can significantly increase the bulb life expectancy by
fitting a
surge inrush limiting NTC thermistor salvaged from a scrap SMPSU,

** Bollocks.

Predictable Allison response.

** Yep - a perfectly correct one.

Unlike your mindless, asinine piles of pommy drivel.

NTC thermistors DO help bulb life,

** But not *significantly* !!

As was * required * by the context and the post I replied to.

I have no data as to how NTC thermistors improve bulb life

** Then you have no idea that they do - you ASS.

It's *obvious* how they do.

but am aware that it does help if only a bit.

** Then you were 100% wrong to contradict my post.

Only dimming ( ie reducing the voltage to) an incandescent lamp will extend
its life significantly.

Which is what I said but you seem to have deleted. Along with the bit about PC
PSU NTCs being inappropriately sized to be very effective.

Graham

 

[Phil Allison]

"Eeyore"

** You are 100% WRONG yet again - dickhead.

There is simply NO prohibition on the use of flammable plastic cases
for
TV sets and the like.

TV set fires and consequent house fire have been happening since the
first
plastic case sets come on the market.

BSEN 60065 does in fact establish maximum temps for all case and internal
materials I can think of with the specific intention of fire prevention
along with user burns.

** You are 100% WRONG yet again - dickhead.

There is simply NO prohibition on the use of flammable plastic cases for
TV sets and the like.

TV set fires and consequent house fires have been happening since the first
plastic case sets come on the market.


Go look up " ABS " - you dumb, incredibly lazy ASS.

Highly flammable, gives off * hydrogen cyanide* gas when burnt.

Aka " Zyklon B " something the Nazis used to great effect in WW2.



...... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Eeysore"

Phil Allison wrote:
"ian field"

What happens if the incandescent bulb burns out?

You can significantly increase the bulb life expectancy by
fitting a
surge inrush limiting NTC thermistor salvaged from a scrap
SMPSU,

** Bollocks.

Predictable Allison response.

** Yep - a perfectly correct one.

Unlike your mindless, asinine piles of pommy drivel.

NTC thermistors DO help bulb life,

** But not *significantly* !!

As was * required * by the context and the post I replied to.

I have no data as to how NTC thermistors improve bulb life

** Then you have no idea that they do - you ASS.

It's *obvious* how they do.

** What a unmitigated LIAR you are Stevenson.

but am aware that it does help if only a bit.

** Then you were 100% wrong to contradict my post.

Only dimming ( ie reducing the voltage to) an incandescent lamp will
extend
its life significantly.

Which is what I said...

** Another blatant lie.

You posted no such thing.


....... Phil