CFL Burns Home Down

[Phil Allison]

** See news story:

http://www.times-news.com/local/local_story_121093606.html

This USA home owner did not do anything silly or wrong here.

There is simply NO SAFETY warning, anywhere AT ALL to suggest a CFL
might burn your home to the ground - maybe several years after you install
it.

The lack of compulsory fire safety standards for CFL is an outrage - as is
their inherent incompatibility with so many fittings and housings.

Homes in Australia will be burnt down too when these POS become compulsory.

Fatalities are certain.

Don't expect any Green Nazis to give a damn.



..... Phil

 

[David L. Jones]

On Aug 22, 12:05 pm, "Phil Allison" <philalli...@tpg.com.au> wrote:

** See news story:

http://www.times-news.com/local/local_story_121093606.html

This USA home owner did not do anything silly or wrong here.

There is simply NO SAFETY warning, anywhere AT ALL to suggest a CFL
might burn your home to the ground - maybe several years after you install
it.

The lack of compulsory fire safety standards for CFL is an outrage - as is
their inherent incompatibility with so many fittings and housings.

Homes in Australia will be burnt down too when these POS become compulsory.

Fatalities are certain.

Don't expect any Green Nazis to give a damn.

.... Phil

As an aside...
I've just swapped several lights in my living room from Oyster/CFL to
the flush mount Envirolux Prima 22W and 33W T5 circular fluro lights.
Very very nice indeed. Run much cooler and give a much more even light
than the old CFL. I'd expect a longer life too.

Dave.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Mik DaDik"

Phil Allison wrote:
** See news story:

http://www.times-news.com/local/local_story_121093606.html

This USA home owner did not do anything silly or wrong here.


Yes we need to be aware about this...

My missus put one in my daughters room (fitted with a dimmer) after the
bulb stopped working.. Of course it didnt work so she told me.. I said
`You cant plug the CFL bulbs into a socket connected to a dimmer switch'.

As I walked into my daughter's room to replace the CFL there was a very
loud exploding noise, which scared the crap out of me, as my wife had left
the switch turned on.. a fair thing to do, one assumes its not working why
worry..

The CFL did not catch fire or even show signs of damage (strange
considering the noise it made when it blew).

** That bang would be an electro or maybe film cap exploding.

Now to me it was well known not to use a CFL in a dimmer socket but I was
not prepared for the near catastrophic result of doing so I always thought
they just wont work.

** Some do absolutely nothing - which is excellent.

However, others flicker and carry on until you set the dimmer knob for max
and then they *seem* OK - but are actually operating in a state of serve
component overstress.

See:

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/incandescent.htm#dim

So beware...we may have lost a house or worse our daughter because of this
simple oversight

** Once out and away from the pack, it is hard or even impossible to tell
if a CFL is rated as being dimmer/triac switch compatible or not.

They ALL should be dimmer *safe* at least, by law !!!

Plus fire and poisonous smoke safe too - by making the base from
non-flammable ceramic and having no ventilation holes.



...... Phil

 

[Terry Given]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Mik DaDik"

Phil Allison wrote:

** See news story:

http://www.times-news.com/local/local_story_121093606.html

This USA home owner did not do anything silly or wrong here.


Yes we need to be aware about this...

My missus put one in my daughters room (fitted with a dimmer) after the
bulb stopped working.. Of course it didnt work so she told me.. I said
`You cant plug the CFL bulbs into a socket connected to a dimmer switch'.

As I walked into my daughter's room to replace the CFL there was a very
loud exploding noise, which scared the crap out of me, as my wife had left
the switch turned on.. a fair thing to do, one assumes its not working why
worry..

The CFL did not catch fire or even show signs of damage (strange
considering the noise it made when it blew).



** That bang would be an electro or maybe film cap exploding.

if the CFL has an LC filter (and lots do) then it wont be damped at all
(Fc is usually well below 150kHz so the resonant spike wont show up in
conducted (or radiated) emissions testing.

the high dV/dt of a dimmer makes the LC filter overshoot, and the output
voltage will head in the general direction of 2xVin. the little electros
get pushed hard anyway, and are invariably of dubious quality. mind you
even good electros go bad when you apply about 2x Vrated.

Now to me it was well known not to use a CFL in a dimmer socket but I was
not prepared for the near catastrophic result of doing so I always thought
they just wont work.


** Some do absolutely nothing - which is excellent.

However, others flicker and carry on until you set the dimmer knob for max
and then they *seem* OK - but are actually operating in a state of serve
component overstress.

See:

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/incandescent.htm#dim



So beware...we may have lost a house or worse our daughter because of this
simple oversight


** Once out and away from the pack, it is hard or even impossible to tell
if a CFL is rated as being dimmer/triac switch compatible or not.

They ALL should be dimmer *safe* at least, by law !!!

Plus fire and poisonous smoke safe too - by making the base from
non-flammable ceramic and having no ventilation holes.



..... Phil

Hear Hear.

Cheers
Terry

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 16:31:58 +1000, Mik DaDik <monkeymik@yahoo.com>
put finger to keyboard and composed:

My missus put one in my daughters room (fitted with a dimmer) after the
bulb stopped working.. Of course it didnt work so she told me.. I said
`You cant plug the CFL bulbs into a socket connected to a dimmer switch'.

As I walked into my daughter's room to replace the CFL there was a very
loud exploding noise, which scared the crap out of me, as my wife had
left the switch turned on.. a fair thing to do, one assumes its not
working why worry..

The CFL did not catch fire or even show signs of damage (strange
considering the noise it made when it blew).

Now to me it was well known not to use a CFL in a dimmer socket but I
was not prepared for the near catastrophic result of doing so I always
thought they just wont work.

So beware...we may have lost a house or worse our daughter because of
this simple oversight

Mik

My brother installed a CFL in a 3-stage dimmed touch lamp and
[fortunately ?] short circuited the triac in the dimmer.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Phil Allison]

"ian field"

All the CFLs I've had apart were fitted with a thermal fuse or a fusible
resistor on the AC side of the bridge rectifier, over the years I've had a
few fail - which they usually do quietly and without incident.

** When used with a dimmer set to max or some triac switches - the
fusible resistor that runs red hot and can start a fire. See pic of glowing
thermal fuse:

http://sound.westhost.com/articles/incandescent.htm#norm

The situation may be very different in the US because they only have half
the voltage to play with, maybe they use a voltage doubling rectifier with
2 electro's but whatever they do the design must be different in some way.

** Not really:

http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/cflamp2.pdf

Using a switching inverter means the rectified AC supply voltage is non
critical.



....... Phil

 

[Lord Garth]

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
news:jqiua4l74mdccf9malh7v0t4oh0t32v186@4ax.com...

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 16:31:58 +1000, Mik DaDik <monkeymik@yahoo.com
put finger to keyboard and composed:

My missus put one in my daughters room (fitted with a dimmer) after the
bulb stopped working.. Of course it didnt work so she told me.. I said
`You cant plug the CFL bulbs into a socket connected to a dimmer switch'.

As I walked into my daughter's room to replace the CFL there was a very
loud exploding noise, which scared the crap out of me, as my wife had
left the switch turned on.. a fair thing to do, one assumes its not
working why worry..

The CFL did not catch fire or even show signs of damage (strange
considering the noise it made when it blew).

Now to me it was well known not to use a CFL in a dimmer socket but I
was not prepared for the near catastrophic result of doing so I always
thought they just wont work.

So beware...we may have lost a house or worse our daughter because of
this simple oversight

Mik

My brother installed a CFL in a 3-stage dimmed touch lamp and
[fortunately ?] short circuited the triac in the dimmer.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

I run a CFL on my X10 switches all the time....the proviso is that I
always have at least one standard incandescent bulb in parallel with
the CFL. I'm on my second CFL now...I'll see if my date stamp is
still visible.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:54:22 -0500, "Lord Garth" <lgarth@tantalus.net>
put finger to keyboard and composed:

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
news:jqiua4l74mdccf9malh7v0t4oh0t32v186@4ax.com...

My brother installed a CFL in a 3-stage dimmed touch lamp and
[fortunately ?] short circuited the triac in the dimmer.

- Franc Zabkar

I run a CFL on my X10 switches all the time....the proviso is that I
always have at least one standard incandescent bulb in parallel with
the CFL. I'm on my second CFL now...I'll see if my date stamp is
still visible.

What happens if the incandescent bulb burns out?

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Franc Zabkar"
"Lord Garth"

I run a CFL on my X10 switches all the time....the proviso is that I
always have at least one standard incandescent bulb in parallel with
the CFL. I'm on my second CFL now...I'll see if my date stamp is
still visible.

What happens if the incandescent bulb burns out?

** It's obvious, the CFLs all catch on fire and burn the house down.



.... Phil

 

[ian field]

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
news:60bva4hjbhefnup317gkfvp3ab3agpaoso@4ax.com...

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:54:22 -0500, "Lord Garth" <lgarth@tantalus.net
put finger to keyboard and composed:

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
news:jqiua4l74mdccf9malh7v0t4oh0t32v186@4ax.com...

My brother installed a CFL in a 3-stage dimmed touch lamp and
[fortunately ?] short circuited the triac in the dimmer.

- Franc Zabkar

I run a CFL on my X10 switches all the time....the proviso is that I
always have at least one standard incandescent bulb in parallel with
the CFL. I'm on my second CFL now...I'll see if my date stamp is
still visible.

What happens if the incandescent bulb burns out?

You can significantly increase the bulb life expectancy by fitting a surge
inrush limiting NTC thermistor salvaged from a scrap SMPSU, they're very
small and fit easily in the switch mounting box even with the extra bulk on
the back of a dimmer switch.

Its a bit extreme but you could always fit a 3-way lamp cluster and have 2
incandescent bulbs in parallel with each CFL - but the low efficiency would
sort of defeat the object a bit!

 

[Lord Garth]

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
news:60bva4hjbhefnup317gkfvp3ab3agpaoso@4ax.com...

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 21:54:22 -0500, "Lord Garth" <lgarth@tantalus.net
put finger to keyboard and composed:

"Franc Zabkar" <fzabkar@iinternode.on.net> wrote in message
news:jqiua4l74mdccf9malh7v0t4oh0t32v186@4ax.com...

My brother installed a CFL in a 3-stage dimmed touch lamp and
[fortunately ?] short circuited the triac in the dimmer.

- Franc Zabkar

I run a CFL on my X10 switches all the time....the proviso is that I
always have at least one standard incandescent bulb in parallel with
the CFL. I'm on my second CFL now...I'll see if my date stamp is
still visible.

What happens if the incandescent bulb burns out?

Point taken Franc but it hasn't burned out in over 7 years so far.
The bulb could be replaced with a resistor but the bulb was more
easily installed.

 

[Eeyore]

Phil Allison wrote:

** See news story:

http://www.times-news.com/local/local_story_121093606.html

This USA home owner did not do anything silly or wrong here.

There is simply NO SAFETY warning, anywhere AT ALL to suggest a CFL
might burn your home to the ground - maybe several years after you install
it.

The lack of compulsory fire safety standards for CFL is an outrage - as is
their inherent incompatibility with so many fittings and housings.

It would be covered in the USA by UL standards.

If cheapskate importers choose to sell unapproved CFLs then THEY should pay the
bill. And be prosecuted and if necessary placed in insolvency and completely
shut down.

OTOF the twit who buys a CFL without a valid safety mark can expect what he
gets.

Increasingly. and especially in the EU, IEC standards for electrical safety
should make such problems extinct.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Mik DaDik wrote:

Phil Allison wrote:
** See news story:

http://www.times-news.com/local/local_story_121093606.html

This USA home owner did not do anything silly or wrong here.


Hi Phil, ALL,

Yes we need to be aware about this...

My missus put one in my daughters room (fitted with a dimmer) after the
bulb stopped working.. Of course it didnt work so she told me.. I said
`You cant plug the CFL bulbs into a socket connected to a dimmer switch'.

As I walked into my daughter's room to replace the CFL there was a very
loud exploding noise, which scared the crap out of me, as my wife had
left the switch turned on.. a fair thing to do, one assumes its not
working why worry..

The CFL did not catch fire or even show signs of damage (strange
considering the noise it made when it blew).

That's because it was designed to modern safety standards.

Now to me it was well known not to use a CFL in a dimmer socket but I
was not prepared for the near catastrophic result of doing so I always
thought they just wont work.

So beware...we may have lost a house or worse our daughter because of
this simple oversight

Just how stupid are you ?

It's written on the box if it's suitable for use with dimmers or not. Some
are but they cost more.

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Phil Allison wrote:

"ian field"

All the CFLs I've had apart were fitted with a thermal fuse or a fusible
resistor on the AC side of the bridge rectifier, over the years I've had a
few fail - which they usually do quietly and without incident.

** When used with a dimmer set to max or some triac switches - the
fusible resistor that runs red hot and can start a fire. See pic of glowing
thermal fuse:

They are not DESIGNED to be used with dimmers.

Why are you excusing the fuckwits who don't bother to read the instructions ?

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Franc Zabkar wrote:

My brother installed a CFL in a 3-stage dimmed touch lamp and
[fortunately ?] short circuited the triac in the dimmer.

Did he have truly no idea CFLs aren't (usually) dimmable ?

Graham

 

[Eeyore]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Franc Zabkar"
"Lord Garth"

I run a CFL on my X10 switches all the time....the proviso is that I
always have at least one standard incandescent bulb in parallel with
the CFL. I'm on my second CFL now...I'll see if my date stamp is
still visible.

What happens if the incandescent bulb burns out?

** It's obvious, the CFLs all catch on fire and burn the house down.

Never heard of CE, UL, CUL/CSA, C Tick or CCC ?

Graham

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 23:35:24 +0100, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> put finger to keyboard and
composed:

Franc Zabkar wrote:

My brother installed a CFL in a 3-stage dimmed touch lamp and
[fortunately ?] short circuited the triac in the dimmer.

Did he have truly no idea CFLs aren't (usually) dimmable ?

Graham

You can be intelligent *and* ignorant at the same time. A lot of
people don't understand the problem. It requires a public education
campaign by the same authorities that mandated CFLs, or at least a
*prominent* warning on the box, or on the lamp itself. And even if
there was a warning on the box, how many people would expect to have
to read instructions on how to use a planet-saving light bulb?

In any case I believe CFLs should be able to tolerate misuse, even if
they fail gracefully as a consequence.

A final thought. I wonder how CFLs cope with brown outs? That's
something that is out of our control.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Sat, 23 Aug 2008 11:08:18 +1200, Terry Given <my_name@ieee.org> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

if the CFL has an LC filter (and lots do) then it wont be damped at all
(Fc is usually well below 150kHz so the resonant spike wont show up in
conducted (or radiated) emissions testing.

the high dV/dt of a dimmer makes the LC filter overshoot, and the output
voltage will head in the general direction of 2xVin. the little electros
get pushed hard anyway, and are invariably of dubious quality. mind you
even good electros go bad when you apply about 2x Vrated.

This person has reverse engineered a lot of failed CFLs:
http://www.pavouk.org/hw/lamp/en_index.html

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Eeysore"

Phil Allison wrote:
"ian field"

All the CFLs I've had apart were fitted with a thermal fuse or a
fusible
resistor on the AC side of the bridge rectifier, over the years I've
had a
few fail - which they usually do quietly and without incident.

** When used with a dimmer set to max or some triac switches - the
fusible resistor that runs red hot and can start a fire. See pic of
glowing
thermal fuse:

They are not DESIGNED to be used with dimmers.

Why are you excusing the fuckwits who don't bother to read the
instructions ?

** Try reading the thread - it is about fire hazard.

Not one word exists from makers about this risk in their "instructions".




....... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Eeysore" <

Phil Allison wrote:

"Franc Zabkar"
"Lord Garth"

I run a CFL on my X10 switches all the time....the proviso is that I
always have at least one standard incandescent bulb in parallel with
the CFL. I'm on my second CFL now...I'll see if my date stamp is
still visible.

What happens if the incandescent bulb burns out?

** It's obvious, the CFLs all catch on fire and burn the house down.

Never heard of CE, UL, CUL/CSA, C Tick or CCC ?

** Never heard of CRT monitors or TV sets burning home down ??

Agency approval has no effect on the fire hazard issue.



...... Phil