Battery charge tests - running a battery to 0 frequently - checking re-charge times...

B

Bob F

Guest
On 5/10/2022 1:58 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-05-10 21:18, nospam wrote:
In article <70qqki-02f.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Fast charging a lead acid battery means supplying it with a high
voltage, maybe 20 or 30 volts, much more than what the battery can
absorb. If the car is not disconnected, that voltage reaches
the car
itself.

I\'ve never heard of high-voltage charging of lead-acid
batteries, at
least not beyond 2.5 volts per cell (14.8V for a six cell car
battery).

I have.

where have you heard that?

citations required.


I saw it personally.

that\'s not a citation, nor did you see that.

Cite me. I saw it. I am the source.

that\'s not how citations work. you can\'t cite yourself.

I am a witness.


what you describe is not how lead acid batteries are charged.

take a photo of the charger and/or find one or more links describing it.

Nope. It was over a decade ago.

Take my word for it, then you waste your time and find the information.
I did that research at the time.
What you get is my recollection.

You will not find current information because it is an incorrect and
dangerous thing to do; in fact, it destroyed part of the electronics of
my car. But I did not know what they were doing at the time or I would
have stopped them. I could have sued them.

So, what you seem to be saying is that you managed to find some clown
with bad theory and a huge power supply that you then let destroy the
electronics on your car.

Quite a reference!

It\'s a good thing nobody else fell for this scam.
 
C

Carlos E.R.

Guest
On 2022-05-11 02:11, Lewis wrote:
In message <nq8rki-p6s.ln1@Telcontar.valinor> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
On 2022-05-10 23:24, sms wrote:
On 5/10/2022 1:58 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

snip

You will not find current information because it is an incorrect and
dangerous thing to do; in fact, it destroyed part of the electronics
of my car. But I did not know what they were doing at the time or I
would have stopped them. I could have sued them.

I don\'t know where that repair shop would have found such a battery
charger unless they were using a 24V charger on a 12V battery.

Nope. Just 12 volt battery, huge garage charger with a setting on
\"boost\" or \"super boost\" mode.

That is AMPS that are boosted, you numpty moron, not volts.

Plonk


--
Cheers, Carlos.
 
C

Carlos E.R.

Guest
On 2022-05-11 02:49, sms wrote:
On 5/10/2022 4:24 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-05-10 23:24, sms wrote:
On 5/10/2022 1:58 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

snip

You will not find current information because it is an incorrect and
dangerous thing to do; in fact, it destroyed part of the electronics
of my car. But I did not know what they were doing at the time or I
would have stopped them. I could have sued them.

I don\'t know where that repair shop would have found such a battery
charger unless they were using a 24V charger on a 12V battery.

Nope. Just 12 volt battery, huge garage charger with a setting on
\"boost\" or \"super boost\" mode.

Something like this, but I don\'t see documentation on the site:

https://suministrosorozco.com/epages/2efc024d-9b23-4ccc-92e1-bcfa345cea70.sf/es_ES/?ObjectPath=/Shops/2efc024d-9b23-4ccc-92e1-bcfa345cea70/Products/A807546


Ah, your confusion is that \"Boost\" doesn\'t increase the voltage being
used, it increases the current to a level great enough to start the
vehicle even when there is a dead battery loading down the electrical
system. See <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DM34RLH>. At 250 amps you can
pretty much start any vehicle, even one where the vehicle\'s battery has
close to zero internal resistance.

No.

This is charging the battery, not starting the car. When the battery is
sufficiently charged, the battery is connected back to the car, and you
try to start it.

Second.

To increase the amps going to the battery, you have to increase the
voltage given by the charger. There is no other way. Of course, the
transformer and rectifier must be able to maintain the voltage at the
current that results.


Stop going round what I said. It is exactly what I said, a lead-acid
charger that provides a *brutal voltage* to the battery to charge it
very fast.

Maybe you don\'t use this method over in your country. Maybe they decided
it is not worth it, because it destroys batteries and cars if misused.
Even if not.




--
Cheers, Carlos.
 
S

sms

Guest
On 5/11/2022 2:50 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-05-11 02:49, sms wrote:
On 5/10/2022 4:24 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2022-05-10 23:24, sms wrote:
On 5/10/2022 1:58 PM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

snip

You will not find current information because it is an incorrect
and dangerous thing to do; in fact, it destroyed part of the
electronics of my car. But I did not know what they were doing at
the time or I would have stopped them. I could have sued them.

I don\'t know where that repair shop would have found such a battery
charger unless they were using a 24V charger on a 12V battery.

Nope. Just 12 volt battery, huge garage charger with a setting on
\"boost\" or \"super boost\" mode.

Something like this, but I don\'t see documentation on the site:

https://suministrosorozco.com/epages/2efc024d-9b23-4ccc-92e1-bcfa345cea70.sf/es_ES/?ObjectPath=/Shops/2efc024d-9b23-4ccc-92e1-bcfa345cea70/Products/A807546



Ah, your confusion is that \"Boost\" doesn\'t increase the voltage being
used, it increases the current to a level great enough to start the
vehicle even when there is a dead battery loading down the electrical
system. See <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DM34RLH>. At 250 amps you
can pretty much start any vehicle, even one where the vehicle\'s
battery has close to zero internal resistance.

No.

This is charging the battery, not starting the car. When the battery is
sufficiently charged, the battery is connected back to the car, and you
try to start it.

Second.

To increase the amps going to the battery, you have to increase the
voltage given by the charger. There is no other way. Of course, the
transformer and rectifier must be able to maintain the voltage at the
current that results.

That is untrue. If anything increasing the voltage decreases the
current. But the reality is that the voltage on battery chargers is
regulated so it does not exceed the maximum safe voltage. For charging
lead-acid batteries you\'d be hard-pressed to find any high-current
charger that goes over 15 volts for a 12 volt battery. The \"boost\"
setting increases the current so the car can be started from the
charger, which isn\'t possible from a charger that is supplying only 2
amps or 10 amps (the two common settings on small chargers).

Stop going round what I said. It is exactly what I said, a lead-acid
charger that provides a *brutal voltage* to the battery to charge it
very fast.

Sorry, but what you have stated makes no sense, including your belief
that the only way to increase the current to the battery can only be
achieved by increasing the voltage. Constant voltage/constant current
(CVCC) is the best way to charge lead-acid batteries, CV is the
second-best way.

Maybe you don\'t use this method over in your country. Maybe they decided
it is not worth it, because it destroys batteries and cars if misused.
Even if not.

It is not used in any country.
 
N

nospam

Guest
In article <nfdski-qv7.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

Ah, your confusion is that \"Boost\" doesn\'t increase the voltage being
used, it increases the current to a level great enough to start the
vehicle even when there is a dead battery loading down the electrical
system. See <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07DM34RLH>. At 250 amps you can
pretty much start any vehicle, even one where the vehicle\'s battery has
close to zero internal resistance.

No.

yes.

the above description is correct.

This is charging the battery, not starting the car. When the battery is
sufficiently charged, the battery is connected back to the car, and you
try to start it.

some people do disconnect the battery, usually because it\'s easier to
charge it indoors where there are mains outlets, however, that\'s
optional and has nothing to do with what you describe.

> Second.

there is no first, let alone second. stop digging.

To increase the amps going to the battery, you have to increase the
voltage given by the charger. There is no other way. Of course, the
transformer and rectifier must be able to maintain the voltage at the
current that results.

nope. that is completely wrong.

Stop going round what I said. It is exactly what I said, a lead-acid
charger that provides a *brutal voltage* to the battery to charge it
very fast.

so fast that the battery is destroyed in the process, possibly more if
it explodes.

Maybe you don\'t use this method over in your country. Maybe they decided
it is not worth it, because it destroys batteries and cars if misused.
Even if not.

lead acid batteries do not care what country they\'re in.

charging is based on electrical theory, not geography.
 
N

nospam

Guest
In article <t5gm6v$pr6$1@dont-email.me>, sms
<scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

To increase the amps going to the battery, you have to increase the
voltage given by the charger. There is no other way. Of course, the
transformer and rectifier must be able to maintain the voltage at the
current that results.

That is untrue.

yep, it\'s completely wrong.

If anything increasing the voltage decreases the
current. But the reality is that the voltage on battery chargers is
regulated so it does not exceed the maximum safe voltage.

that is not the reality.

lead acid battery chargers regulate the *current*, at least for the
initial bulk charge phase.

For charging
lead-acid batteries you\'d be hard-pressed to find any high-current
charger that goes over 15 volts for a 12 volt battery.

actually, it\'s very common to go above 15v as part of a restoration
cycle (see link below).

The \"boost\"
setting increases the current so the car can be started from the
charger, which isn\'t possible from a charger that is supplying only 2
amps or 10 amps (the two common settings on small chargers).

small chargers are generally 1-4 amps. the smallest ones are 1/2a for
trickle/maintenance charging.

Stop going round what I said. It is exactly what I said, a lead-acid
charger that provides a *brutal voltage* to the battery to charge it
very fast.

Sorry, but what you have stated makes no sense, including your belief
that the only way to increase the current to the battery can only be
achieved by increasing the voltage. Constant voltage/constant current
(CVCC) is the best way to charge lead-acid batteries, CV is the
second-best way.

the best way is multistage, initially constant current (bulk), followed
by constant voltage (absorption), and finally with a trickle charge to
keep it topped off (float).

one example:
<https://www.motorcycle.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/022514-CTEK-
battery-charger-3-chart-633x360.jpg>

Maybe you don\'t use this method over in your country. Maybe they decided
it is not worth it, because it destroys batteries and cars if misused.
Even if not.

It is not used in any country.

correct.
 
O

ohg...@gmail.com

Guest
On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 11:54:11 AM UTC-4, sms wrote:
But the reality is that the voltage on battery chargers is
regulated so it does not exceed the maximum safe voltage.

Most of those old-school big honking garage chargers are not regulated at all. Just a big honking multi-tap transformer and a big honking rectifier on a big honking heat sink.

Small consumer chargers and float chargers can be regulated.
 
J

Jeff Liebermann

Guest
On Wed, 11 May 2022 11:50:15 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

It is exactly what I said, a lead-acid
charger that provides a *brutal voltage* to the battery to charge it
very fast.

Nope. Applying momentary high voltage to a lead-acid battery is one
way to break up the layer of lead sulfide that has coated the plates
because the battery sat around too long in a discharged state.
Momentarily \"zapping\" the battery does a tolerable job of breaking off
the lead sulfide. However, if donw too much or too often, such as
trying to charge the battery at excessive voltages and currents, the
lead sulfide will fall to the bottom of the plate frame and eventually
produce a short between plates.

High voltage or current charging can also cause problems is the 6
cells of the typical lead acid battery are not equalized. Presumably,
if such a \"brutal\" overcharge is necessary, it\'s a fair assumption
that at least one of the cells is at a very low voltage point and
possibly shorted. I\'ve managed to boil off the electrolyte and
produce hydrogen gas doing that when I was young and stupid.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 
J

Jeff Liebermann

Guest
On Wed, 11 May 2022 17:38:16 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
(...)

A bit more.

Most of todays \"lead acid\" batteries are really lead calcium
batteries. They\'re mostly the same but with some subtle differences:
\"Difference Between Lead Acid and Calcium Batteries\"
<https://www.differencebetween.com/difference-between-lead-acid-and-calcium-batteries/>

There are also differences between \"gel cells\" and AGM batteries. Most
of today VRLA batteries are AGM batteries:
\"What is the Difference Between AGM and GEL Batteries\"
<https://www.differencebetween.com/what-is-the-difference-between-agm-and-gel-batteries/>

When following advice on charging and discharging a battery, make sure
that the advice applies to the specific type of battery, and not
something else.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 
S

sms

Guest
On 5/11/2022 5:38 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 11 May 2022 11:50:15 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

It is exactly what I said, a lead-acid
charger that provides a *brutal voltage* to the battery to charge it
very fast.

Nope. Applying momentary high voltage to a lead-acid battery is one
way to break up the layer of lead sulfide that has coated the plates
because the battery sat around too long in a discharged state.
Momentarily \"zapping\" the battery does a tolerable job of breaking off
the lead sulfide. However, if donw too much or too often, such as
trying to charge the battery at excessive voltages and currents, the
lead sulfide will fall to the bottom of the plate frame and eventually
produce a short between plates.

That\'s the theory anyway.

There are a bunch of chargers out there that will zap the battery with
high-voltage/low-current pulses in an effort remove some sulfation.
There\'s little evidence that this does much of anything.

I experimented with this with an AGM battery out of my vehicle that was
not holding a charge. I repeatedly measured the capacity using a 25A
load to discharge the battery, then charged it using the \"reconditioning
feature.\" The RC (Reserve Capacity) went from 30 minutes to 54 minutes
(after many cycles), but that’s still less than half of the 118 minutes
or so RC for a new D23 battery. Also, it’s possible that just the
repeated deep-discharge/recharge cycles would have achieved the same
increase in reserve capacity without the pulse mode being activated. See
<https://i.imgur.com/rRV4lH8.jpg> for the setup.

Since it was an AGM battery, and sealed, I could not open it up to do
this procedure
<https://www.advrider.com/f/threads/lead-acid-battery-reconditioning-with-epsom-salt.1199266/#post-31331059>
which, as the text states: \"With the plates \"de-sulfated\" to some
degree, they will re-acquire some percentage of their lost storage
capacity. It\'s not a total cure-all, but it can indeed give some life
extension to old lead acid batteries.\" If you recall \"VX-6\" sold by
places like JC Whitney, it was just magnesium sulfate, but the procedure
described in the link would have better success than just adding
magnesium sulfate. It\'s a lot of work, and you also need to buy some
battery electrolyte to do the procedure properly.
 
J

Jeff Liebermann

Guest
On Thu, 12 May 2022 07:45:47 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com>
wrote:

On 5/11/2022 5:38 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 11 May 2022 11:50:15 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

It is exactly what I said, a lead-acid
charger that provides a *brutal voltage* to the battery to charge it
very fast.

Nope. Applying momentary high voltage to a lead-acid battery is one
way to break up the layer of lead sulfide that has coated the plates
because the battery sat around too long in a discharged state.
Momentarily \"zapping\" the battery does a tolerable job of breaking off
the lead sulfide. However, if donw too much or too often, such as
trying to charge the battery at excessive voltages and currents, the
lead sulfide will fall to the bottom of the plate frame and eventually
produce a short between plates.

That\'s the theory anyway.

I didn\'t mention anything about whether \"zapping\" worked. I was just
trying to distinguish between *MOMENTARY* zapping and applying a
*brutal voltage* to the battery. Momentary might work, but continuous
overcharging is guaranteed to do something disgusting. In my case, I
have two white formica covered lab benches, both of which have tan
colored acid burns from where the blew the side out of the battery and
hot acid leaked out.

There are a bunch of chargers out there that will zap the battery with
high-voltage/low-current pulses in an effort remove some sulfation.
There\'s little evidence that this does much of anything.

I experimented with this with an AGM battery out of my vehicle that was
not holding a charge. I repeatedly measured the capacity using a 25A
load to discharge the battery, then charged it using the \"reconditioning
feature.\" The RC (Reserve Capacity) went from 30 minutes to 54 minutes
(after many cycles), but that’s still less than half of the 118 minutes
or so RC for a new D23 battery. Also, it’s possible that just the
repeated deep-discharge/recharge cycles would have achieved the same
increase in reserve capacity without the pulse mode being activated. See
https://i.imgur.com/rRV4lH8.jpg> for the setup.

Since it was an AGM battery, and sealed, I could not open it up to do
this procedure
https://www.advrider.com/f/threads/lead-acid-battery-reconditioning-with-epsom-salt.1199266/#post-31331059
which, as the text states: \"With the plates \"de-sulfated\" to some
degree, they will re-acquire some percentage of their lost storage
capacity. It\'s not a total cure-all, but it can indeed give some life
extension to old lead acid batteries.\" If you recall \"VX-6\" sold by
places like JC Whitney, it was just magnesium sulfate, but the procedure
described in the link would have better success than just adding
magnesium sulfate. It\'s a lot of work, and you also need to buy some
battery electrolyte to do the procedure properly.

Here\'s a guaranteed to work method of raising a battery from the dead:
\"Brilliant technique of lead acid battery restoration\"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNGg0P7B5fI> (11:22)
\"Amazing Restoration Technique of an Old Lead Acid Battery\"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I0IAwOIwXo> (10:49)
\"Dead Old Battery Restoration - How To Repair Battery\"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gka20Vwp9rk> (19:15)
\"Amazing Technique of Making Lead Acid Battery Plates & Restoring a
Dead Battery\"
<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdMWBv8kAo0> (14:34)
The last URL has some contact info:
<https://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Home-Improvement/Mughal-Battery-Service-903845953074983/>


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 
O

ohg...@gmail.com

Guest
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 11:46:03 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Here\'s a guaranteed to work method of raising a battery from the dead:
\"Brilliant technique of lead acid battery restoration\"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNGg0P7B5fI> (11:22)
\"Amazing Restoration Technique of an Old Lead Acid Battery\"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I0IAwOIwXo> (10:49)
\"Dead Old Battery Restoration - How To Repair Battery\"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gka20Vwp9rk> (19:15)
\"Amazing Technique of Making Lead Acid Battery Plates & Restoring a
Dead Battery\"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdMWBv8kAo0> (14:34)
The last URL has some contact info:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Home-Improvement/Mughal-Battery-Service-903845953074983/
--
Jeff Liebermann je...@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Those vids are great. Proves the old adage that where there\'s a will there\'s a way.
 
J

Jeff Liebermann

Guest
On Fri, 13 May 2022 07:20:19 -0700 (PDT), \"ohg...@gmail.com\"
<ohger1s@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 11:46:03 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Here\'s a guaranteed to work method of raising a battery from the dead:
\"Brilliant technique of lead acid battery restoration\"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNGg0P7B5fI> (11:22)
\"Amazing Restoration Technique of an Old Lead Acid Battery\"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9I0IAwOIwXo> (10:49)
\"Dead Old Battery Restoration - How To Repair Battery\"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gka20Vwp9rk> (19:15)
\"Amazing Technique of Making Lead Acid Battery Plates & Restoring a
Dead Battery\"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdMWBv8kAo0> (14:34)
The last URL has some contact info:
https://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Home-Improvement/Mughal-Battery-Service-903845953074983/

Those vids are great. Proves the old adage that where there\'s a will there\'s a way.

Thanks. I listed only a small number of those claiming to repair,
restore, rejuvenate or resurrect batteries. Seems to be a popular
occupation in 3rd world countries. Most of the videos seems to be
from Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka and the USA. More:
<https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dead+battery+repair+restore>

What most videos don\'t show are any clues as to:
1. How to dispose of the old sulfuric acid.
2. How do deal with the lead sulfide residue, old separators, lead
oxide slag, etc.
3. Testing the seals. Hot melt glue isn\'t very strong and will
eventually leak.
4. Shock mounting the internal cells so that the vehicle vibration
doesn\'t shake the cells excessively.
5. Safety equipment and procedures.

When I was young and stupid, I rebuilt a few batteries in a similar
manner. Some worked for a few months. One exploded from a hydrogen
explosion. Most of them leaked electrolyte because I was using tar as
a sealant. I recommend that everyone interested try rebuilding one
battery. That\'s one and no more. I suspect that the effort necessary
to do it correctly, and the generally mediocre results, will
discourage any further attempts.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 
O

ohg...@gmail.com

Guest
On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 10:50:15 AM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

3. Testing the seals. Hot melt glue isn\'t very strong and will
eventually leak.

I have zero experience with hot melt glue on batteries, and my comment isn\'t about using hot glue in this way, but my experience with hot glue is that most of the time, hot glue failure is due to improper heating. What I do is to preheat the surface to which the glue is to be applied with a heat gun (assuming the material can handle the heat). It takes much longer for the glue to set, but I\'ve found the glue is *much* stronger and its adhesion far better when it it\'s allowed to get to a much thinner liquid than the thicker goop which is what generally comes out of a cheap or hobby type hot glue gun. Even if the glue gun does a good job getting the glue hot enough, too often the surface to be bonded acts like a heatsink and cools the glue before the pieces can be assembled. Preheating the surface really helps to get the glue thin.
 
C

Carlos E.R.

Guest
On 2022-05-12 02:38, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 11 May 2022 11:50:15 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

It is exactly what I said, a lead-acid
charger that provides a *brutal voltage* to the battery to charge it
very fast.

Nope. Applying momentary high voltage to a lead-acid battery is one
way to break up the layer of lead sulfide that has coated the plates
because the battery sat around too long in a discharged state.
Momentarily \"zapping\" the battery does a tolerable job of breaking off
the lead sulfide. However, if donw too much or too often, such as
trying to charge the battery at excessive voltages and currents, the
lead sulfide will fall to the bottom of the plate frame and eventually
produce a short between plates.

Well, it was not \"momentary\", the thing was connected for something like
a quarter an hour.

I\'m sure that the charger had a rate limiter, though.

The problem was that the \"mechanic\" was not sufficiently familiar with
the thing. She should have called one of the proper mechanics instead of
trying to do it herself, but being close to closing hour they were
probably leaving the premises at that time. I was there to pay and
collect the car after routine servicing at the end of their day.

They would have known that to use the fast charging mode the battery has
to be removed from the car, or the high voltage applied destroys the
electronics - which did happen, but months later. An slow fault. And
long after that I chanced to read documentation for a similar charger,
and indeed they said this.


High voltage or current charging can also cause problems is the 6
cells of the typical lead acid battery are not equalized. Presumably,
if such a \"brutal\" overcharge is necessary, it\'s a fair assumption
that at least one of the cells is at a very low voltage point and
possibly shorted. I\'ve managed to boil off the electrolyte and
produce hydrogen gas doing that when I was young and stupid.

If that were the case, they would have noticed the situation earlier and
installed a new battery on the spot. I was having the car serviced for
\"everything\" that the book said had to be done periodically. Apparently
they \"tested\" the battery, and they discharged it too much. Bad on them,
too.

The idea of this quick charge was so that I could leave and get a new
battery promptly - which I did. Just not from them.

--
Cheers, Carlos.
 
J

Jeff Liebermann

Guest
On Sat, 14 May 2022 15:59:28 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-05-12 02:38, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Wed, 11 May 2022 11:50:15 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

It is exactly what I said, a lead-acid
charger that provides a *brutal voltage* to the battery to charge it
very fast.

Nope. Applying momentary high voltage to a lead-acid battery is one
way to break up the layer of lead sulfide that has coated the plates
because the battery sat around too long in a discharged state.
Momentarily \"zapping\" the battery does a tolerable job of breaking off
the lead sulfide. However, if donw too much or too often, such as
trying to charge the battery at excessive voltages and currents, the
lead sulfide will fall to the bottom of the plate frame and eventually
produce a short between plates.

Well, it was not \"momentary\", the thing was connected for something like
a quarter an hour.

I\'m sure that the charger had a rate limiter, though.

Well, you know the approximate voltage. Instead of about 14V, the
charger was delivering about 20V. You also know the current that was
being drawn, which should appear on the ammeter on the charger. My
guess would be 10 to 30 amps. Total power would be in the range of
200 to 600 watts. Now, where did this power go? It wasn\'t dissipated
inside the charger in some kind of rate limiter (also known as a
regulator) because it was measured outside the charger with the
battery attached. Therefore, the battery had to deal with 200 to 600
watts, which is could only convert to heat. I\'ll call it 400 watt
hours to make the arithmetic easier. The battery was charged for 1/4
of an hour, so that\'s 100 watt-hours or 0.36MJ (Mega-Joules). That\'s
about what it takes to boil a liter of water.

The problem was that the \"mechanic\" was not sufficiently familiar with
the thing.

If she used an automotive battery charger that was similar to the
monster charger I used when working at an auto dealer, it has two
general settings. The lowest charge rates are properly regulated and
the charger will do its best not to blow anything up. The other is
the \"start\" position, where the regulator is bypassed, and the full DC
power available is applied to the battery. This is used to start a
car when there is no spare starter battery available. The switch is
spring loaded to underscore that it should be used momentarily, not
continuously.

Some examples. Sorry about the focus problem:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/index.html#img=dead-battery-chargers.jpg>
If you look at the labels, these will show 10/2/55 maps. The 55 is
the \"start\" position. Incidentally, all these died when left to
charge batteries at a radio site. The regulator failed by shorting,
causing the battery to boil off the electrolyte. I took the photo
just before hauling all of them to the dump for recycling as eWaste.

She should have called one of the proper mechanics instead of
trying to do it herself, but being close to closing hour they were
probably leaving the premises at that time. I was there to pay and
collect the car after routine servicing at the end of their day.

Well. Haste usually creates waste. So, what are you going to do to
prevent something similar from happening again? I suggest beginning
with understanding how batteries and chargers operate.

They would have known that to use the fast charging mode the battery has
to be removed from the car, or the high voltage applied destroys the
electronics - which did happen, but months later. An slow fault. And
long after that I chanced to read documentation for a similar charger,
and indeed they said this.

Good point. 20V on the electrical system of a car is not a good idea.
I think 15.5V is the official maximum, but I suspect they\'re designed
to handle momentary overloads.

High voltage or current charging can also cause problems is the 6
cells of the typical lead acid battery are not equalized. Presumably,
if such a \"brutal\" overcharge is necessary, it\'s a fair assumption
that at least one of the cells is at a very low voltage point and
possibly shorted. I\'ve managed to boil off the electrolyte and
produce hydrogen gas doing that when I was young and stupid.

If that were the case, they would have noticed the situation earlier and
installed a new battery on the spot. I was having the car serviced for
\"everything\" that the book said had to be done periodically. Apparently
they \"tested\" the battery, and they discharged it too much. Bad on them,
too.

Older automobile electrical system testers used a carbon pile load.
Basically, a big resistor. Modern testers use an active load. Both
get rather hot when testing a battery. They usually include a spring
loaded \"test\" switch to prevent leaving it on and setting fire to the
tester. A good battery will usually survive, while the shop burns to
the ground. Notice the spring return toggle switch:
<https://www.amazon.com/OTC-3180-Battery-Load-Tester/dp/B000F5HU6C/>

The idea of this quick charge was so that I could leave and get a new
battery promptly - which I did. Just not from them.

Sigh. Notice that the name of my domain is, LearnByDestroying.com.
One doesn\'t really understand how things work until after they\'ve
destroyed and fixed it.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 
N

nospam

Guest
In article <3rjv7htsgmnt4dp2jboaqkqhr2saoj7ue9@4ax.com>, Jeff
Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

Older automobile electrical system testers used a carbon pile load.
Basically, a big resistor.

they did, except that those are now obsolete.

Modern testers use an active load. Both
get rather hot when testing a battery.

nope. modern testers do not get warm, let alone hot.

they perform an instantaneous check which measures cold cranking amps
(cca), internal resistance, health (soh), state of charge (soc) and
more.

<https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71mjeZjNQMS._AC_SL1500_.jpg>
<https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71w0q0qP13L._AC_SL1200_.jpg>
<https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/618nFOfH+7L._AC_SL1000_.jpg>

They usually include a spring
loaded \"test\" switch to prevent leaving it on and setting fire to the
tester. A good battery will usually survive, while the shop burns to
the ground. Notice the spring return toggle switch:
https://www.amazon.com/OTC-3180-Battery-Load-Tester/dp/B000F5HU6C/

old school.

The idea of this quick charge was so that I could leave and get a new
battery promptly - which I did. Just not from them.

Sigh. Notice that the name of my domain is, LearnByDestroying.com.
One doesn\'t really understand how things work until after they\'ve
destroyed and fixed it.

there\'s no need to destroy things to learn, although it\'s easy to
destroy stuff without learning anything.
 
N

nospam

Guest
In article <07p4li-60g.ln1@Telcontar.valinor>, Carlos E.R.
<robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

It is exactly what I said, a lead-acid
charger that provides a *brutal voltage* to the battery to charge it
very fast.

Nope. Applying momentary high voltage to a lead-acid battery is one
way to break up the layer of lead sulfide that has coated the plates
because the battery sat around too long in a discharged state.
Momentarily \"zapping\" the battery does a tolerable job of breaking off
the lead sulfide. However, if donw too much or too often, such as
trying to charge the battery at excessive voltages and currents, the
lead sulfide will fall to the bottom of the plate frame and eventually
produce a short between plates.

Well, it was not \"momentary\", the thing was connected for something like
a quarter an hour.

then it wasn\'t \'brutal voltage\'. if it was, the battery would have been
destroyed long before that.

as you\'ve been told by numerous people, a fast charger is high
*current*, not high voltage, and stops when the voltage reaches a
threshold, about 14.4v, depending on which type of battery it is
(flooded, agm, gel, etc.).

> I\'m sure that the charger had a rate limiter, though.

it did, to limit the *current*.

The problem was that the \"mechanic\" was not sufficiently familiar with
the thing. She should have called one of the proper mechanics instead of
trying to do it herself, but being close to closing hour they were
probably leaving the premises at that time. I was there to pay and
collect the car after routine servicing at the end of their day.

that describes negligence, which means you have/had the makings of a
lawsuit.

They would have known that to use the fast charging mode the battery has
to be removed from the car,

the battery does not need to be removed for fast charging, although it
can be if its more convenient to do so, such as a lack of mains outlets
near the vehicle (e.g., street parking).

or the high voltage applied destroys the
electronics - which did happen, but months later.

if the failure occurred months later, then it wasn\'t anything they did.

damage due to high voltage would have been immediate, certainly not
\'months later\'.

it sounds like there were other electrical issues in the vehicle, which
would have happened anyway.

An slow fault. And
long after that I chanced to read documentation for a similar charger,
and indeed they said this.

if it\'s the charger you previously linked, that was high *current*.

we\'re still waiting for *any* link to a 12v car battery charger that
supplies 20-30 volts or documentation of why that would be beneficial
and not destroy anything.

High voltage or current charging can also cause problems is the 6
cells of the typical lead acid battery are not equalized. Presumably,
if such a \"brutal\" overcharge is necessary, it\'s a fair assumption
that at least one of the cells is at a very low voltage point and
possibly shorted. I\'ve managed to boil off the electrolyte and
produce hydrogen gas doing that when I was young and stupid.

If that were the case, they would have noticed the situation earlier and
installed a new battery on the spot. I was having the car serviced for
\"everything\" that the book said had to be done periodically. Apparently
they \"tested\" the battery, and they discharged it too much. Bad on them,
too.

unless you saw what tests they did and what the results were, there\'s
no way to be sure whether the battery was weak (likely), electrical
issues in the vehicle (also likely, given your description of a delayed
failure) or if they were lying (possible, but nowhere near as common as
people think).

The idea of this quick charge was so that I could leave and get a new
battery promptly - which I did. Just not from them.

quick charge is high *current*.

it is *not* high voltage.
 
J

Jeff Liebermann

Guest
On Sat, 14 May 2022 13:01:08 -0400, nospam <nospam@nospam.invalid>
wrote:

In article <3rjv7htsgmnt4dp2jboaqkqhr2saoj7ue9@4ax.com>, Jeff
Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

Older automobile electrical system testers used a carbon pile load.
Basically, a big resistor.

they did, except that those are now obsolete.

The mechanic who works on my 2001 Subaru has one with a carbon pile
load. I know because I\'ve repaired it a few times. Several of the
auto shops that I frequent also have ancient chargers. Sorry to
report, but the old stuff doesn\'t just disappear.

Modern testers use an active load. Both
get rather hot when testing a battery.

nope. modern testers do not get warm, let alone hot.

they perform an instantaneous check which measures cold cranking amps
(cca), internal resistance, health (soh), state of charge (soc) and
more.

https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71mjeZjNQMS._AC_SL1500_.jpg
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71w0q0qP13L._AC_SL1200_.jpg
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/618nFOfH+7L._AC_SL1000_.jpg

Yep. I totally forgot about ESR battery testers. I use an ESR meter
to testing batteries. However, it was made for testing capacitors,
not batteries. Thanks for the correction.

I also have a battery discharge tester:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/LiPo/Ultrafire%2018650%20test.jpg>
The graphs it produces are far better than anything produced on a
typical ESR tester. For example:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/battery-tests/18650.jpg>
I don\'t have the optional large heat sink and load necessary to test
automobile batteries. However, it does well for testing and matching
LiIon cells:
<http://www.westmountainradio.com/cba.php>

They usually include a spring
loaded \"test\" switch to prevent leaving it on and setting fire to the
tester. A good battery will usually survive, while the shop burns to
the ground. Notice the spring return toggle switch:
https://www.amazon.com/OTC-3180-Battery-Load-Tester/dp/B000F5HU6C/

old school.

Guilty as charged. I\'m 74 years old and officially retired. I borrow
one of these when I need one.
<https://www.harborfreight.com/100a-612v-battery-load-tester-61747.html>

Incidentally, someone possibly in this newsgroup, mentioned that none
of my test equipment was newer than about 1985. That\'s really old
school:
<http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/home/test-equip-mess.jpg>
I wouldn\'t mind having the latest and greatest, but if the old stuff
works, it\'s good enough.

there\'s no need to destroy things to learn, although it\'s easy to
destroy stuff without learning anything.

True. However, the cost of destroying something tends to reinforce
the learning experience. Incidentally, the slogan came from my
college days, where the school motto was \"Learn by Doing\".


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 
N

nospam

Guest
In article <ccrv7h5m15mnvvroctm4upfslbao81i2ba@4ax.com>, Jeff
Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:

Older automobile electrical system testers used a carbon pile load.
Basically, a big resistor.

they did, except that those are now obsolete.

The mechanic who works on my 2001 Subaru has one with a carbon pile
load. I know because I\'ve repaired it a few times. Several of the
auto shops that I frequent also have ancient chargers. Sorry to
report, but the old stuff doesn\'t just disappear.

they might not disappear, but it does mean that those mechanics do not
have modern tools. there\'s also old-school think that\'s resistant (no
pun intended) to change.
 

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