A Product Design Invitation

[Guy Macon]

I recently took over as the moderator of the misc.business.product-dev
newsgroup. It is my intention to make it into a good resource for all
aspects of product development.

I have set up moderation software and have gotten the group off to a
slow start by inviting my buddies over on comp.arch.embedded to
participate. I am now ready to invite more users.

Here is how the moderation works:

Crossposts to one other non-moderated newsgroup are allowed and welcome.
That way you can simply keep posting here as you usually do except for
crossposting to sci.electronics.design,misc.business.product-dev
instead of just posting to ,sci.electronics.design.

I will approve your first post (expect a delay until the next time
I log in as moderator - I do this several times per day) and will
add most posters to the whitelist so that all future posts from them
are autoapproved without delay.

All posts will be approved unless they are obviously spam, off-topic,
or trolling. If you read the read the thread in m.b.p-d, you will
only see posts that are not trolling, flaming, political/religious
posts, etc. I will *not* censor posts for content as long as they
have at least a marginal connection with product development.

Right now misc.business.product-dev is pretty much a dead group,
but I am hoping that I can revive it. I can't do it alone, so
I am asking for your help.

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:21:33 CST, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:17:47 CST, Guy Macon
_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote:




I recently took over as the moderator of the misc.business.product-dev
newsgroup. It is my intention to make it into a good resource for all
aspects of product development.

I have set up moderation software and have gotten the group off to a
slow start by inviting my buddies over on comp.arch.embedded to
participate. I am now ready to invite more users.

Here is how the moderation works:

Crossposts to one other non-moderated newsgroup are allowed and welcome.
That way you can simply keep posting here as you usually do except for
crossposting to sci.electronics.design,misc.business.product-dev
instead of just posting to ,sci.electronics.design.

I will approve your first post (expect a delay until the next time
I log in as moderator - I do this several times per day) and will
add most posters to the whitelist so that all future posts from them
are autoapproved without delay.

All posts will be approved unless they are obviously spam, off-topic,
or trolling. If you read the read the thread in m.b.p-d, you will
only see posts that are not trolling, flaming, political/religious
posts, etc. I will *not* censor posts for content as long as they
have at least a marginal connection with product development.

Right now misc.business.product-dev is pretty much a dead group,
but I am hoping that I can revive it. I can't do it alone, so
I am asking for your help.



Ah, a Guy-Macon-censored version of s.e.d.

John


======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
If the need is there, someone is going to meet it...

Since s.e.d. is unmoderated, why is there a moderator's comment in my
post? That implies that Guy can, in fact, edit my posts. Which clearly
sucks.

There's a reason that most moderated groups are wastelands.


John

 

[Bob Stephens]

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:15:43 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

Since s.e.d. is unmoderated, why is there a moderator's comment in my
post? That implies that Guy can, in fact, edit my posts. Which clearly
sucks.

Remember the character in "Mein Kampf" who got picked on when he was a kid
and grew up needing recognition and trying to tell everybody what to do?
*He's* that guy!


Bob

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:42:27 -0700, Bob Stephens <roberts@dcxchol.com>
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:15:43 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

Since s.e.d. is unmoderated, why is there a moderator's comment in my
post? That implies that Guy can, in fact, edit my posts. Which clearly
sucks.

Remember the character in "Mein Kampf" who got picked on when he was a kid
and grew up needing recognition and trying to tell everybody what to do?
*He's* that guy!


Bob

I'm thinking that Guy's original post had header fields that made my
newsreader (Agent) think that the post was in a moderated group, so it
sent an email to the self-appointed-moderator/little-old-lady, instead
to my news-server. Or something like that.

So if I just ignore Guy from now on (as lots of other people in both
groups will likely do) everything should be OK.

I hope he'll be happy in his snug new newsgroup.

I still don't understand the politics of moderation. Can somebody come
along and decide to moderate s.e.d.?

John

 

[Terry Pinnell]

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:42:27 -0700, Bob Stephens <roberts@dcxchol.com
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:15:43 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

Since s.e.d. is unmoderated, why is there a moderator's comment in my
post? That implies that Guy can, in fact, edit my posts. Which clearly
sucks.

Remember the character in "Mein Kampf" who got picked on when he was a kid
and grew up needing recognition and trying to tell everybody what to do?
*He's* that guy!


Bob

I'm thinking that Guy's original post had header fields that made my
newsreader (Agent) think that the post was in a moderated group, so it
sent an email to the self-appointed-moderator/little-old-lady, instead
to my news-server. Or something like that.

So if I just ignore Guy from now on (as lots of other people in both
groups will likely do) everything should be OK.

I hope he'll be happy in his snug new newsgroup.

I still don't understand the politics of moderation. Can somebody come
along and decide to moderate s.e.d.?

I hope not!

--
Terry Pinnell
Hobbyist, West Sussex, UK

 

[Mike Monett]

John Larkin wrote:

[...]

I still don't understand the politics of moderation. Can somebody come
along and decide to moderate s.e.d.?

John

No. You have to change the charter for the newsgroup and users have to
vote. Someone has to commit to be the moderator, but that responsibility
can be handed off to others. The necessary changes are handled by others
somewhere in the internet hierarchy.

We had a terrible problem in comp.lang.asm.x86 with what may have been a
small group of university students masquerading as an individual. It was
interesting at first, but he (it?) ended up causing havoc for years until
everyone was completely fed up.

When the vote was taken to change to a moderated newsgroup, my name was
first on the list. The resolution passed easily. I think Chuck Crayne is
the current moderator.

Mike Monett

 

[Mike Monett]

Mike Monett wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

[...]

I still don't understand the politics of moderation. Can somebody come
along and decide to moderate s.e.d.?

John

No. You have to change the charter for the newsgroup and users have to
vote.

Just for info, here's the RFD that made clax moderated:

http://groups.google.ca/group/comp.lang.asm.x86/msg/b643ae58c89f241c?dmode=source
Mike Monett

 

[Bob Monsen]

Guy Macon wrote:

I recently took over as the moderator of the misc.business.product-dev
newsgroup. It is my intention to make it into a good resource for all
aspects of product development.

I have set up moderation software and have gotten the group off to a
slow start by inviting my buddies over on comp.arch.embedded to
participate. I am now ready to invite more users.

Here is how the moderation works:

Crossposts to one other non-moderated newsgroup are allowed and welcome.
That way you can simply keep posting here as you usually do except for
crossposting to sci.electronics.design,misc.business.product-dev
instead of just posting to ,sci.electronics.design.

I will approve your first post (expect a delay until the next time
I log in as moderator - I do this several times per day) and will
add most posters to the whitelist so that all future posts from them
are autoapproved without delay.

All posts will be approved unless they are obviously spam, off-topic,
or trolling. If you read the read the thread in m.b.p-d, you will
only see posts that are not trolling, flaming, political/religious
posts, etc. I will *not* censor posts for content as long as they
have at least a marginal connection with product development.

Right now misc.business.product-dev is pretty much a dead group,
but I am hoping that I can revive it. I can't do it alone, so
I am asking for your help.

Here is a quote from the "Moderated Newsgroup FAQ":

An attempt to cross-post a message to more than one moderated group
will go to the moderation address for one group, in most cases,
the moderated group that appears first on the Newsgroups: line,
and will be handled further as that moderator chooses.

Thus, what Guy is suggesting allows him to edit or prohibit your
messages at his whim. If you are going to reply to a message that has
his new newsgroup as a target, you need to edit it out, like I've done.

*Never cross post to his newsgroup.* At best, it's an unnecessary delay;
at worst, it's a childish scheme for getting back at some of this enemies.

---
Regards,
Bob Monsen

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 16:14:08 -0700, Bob Monsen <rcsurname@comcast.net>
wrote:

Guy Macon wrote:
I recently took over as the moderator of the misc.business.product-dev
newsgroup. It is my intention to make it into a good resource for all
aspects of product development.

I have set up moderation software and have gotten the group off to a
slow start by inviting my buddies over on comp.arch.embedded to
participate. I am now ready to invite more users.

Here is how the moderation works:

Crossposts to one other non-moderated newsgroup are allowed and welcome.
That way you can simply keep posting here as you usually do except for
crossposting to sci.electronics.design,misc.business.product-dev
instead of just posting to ,sci.electronics.design.

I will approve your first post (expect a delay until the next time
I log in as moderator - I do this several times per day) and will
add most posters to the whitelist so that all future posts from them
are autoapproved without delay.

All posts will be approved unless they are obviously spam, off-topic,
or trolling. If you read the read the thread in m.b.p-d, you will
only see posts that are not trolling, flaming, political/religious
posts, etc. I will *not* censor posts for content as long as they
have at least a marginal connection with product development.

Right now misc.business.product-dev is pretty much a dead group,
but I am hoping that I can revive it. I can't do it alone, so
I am asking for your help.

Here is a quote from the "Moderated Newsgroup FAQ":

An attempt to cross-post a message to more than one moderated group
will go to the moderation address for one group, in most cases,
the moderated group that appears first on the Newsgroups: line,
and will be handled further as that moderator chooses.

Thus, what Guy is suggesting allows him to edit or prohibit your
messages at his whim. If you are going to reply to a message that has
his new newsgroup as a target, you need to edit it out, like I've done.

*Never cross post to his newsgroup.* At best, it's an unnecessary delay;
at worst, it's a childish scheme for getting back at some of this enemies.

---
Regards,
Bob Monsen

OK, that explains how he intercepted my post to s.e.d.

How very lame.

John

 

[Mark Fergerson]

John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:21:33 CST, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:


On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:17:47 CST, Guy Macon
_see.web.page_@_www.guymacon.com_> wrote:




I recently took over as the moderator of the misc.business.product-dev
newsgroup. It is my intention to make it into a good resource for all
aspects of product development.

I have set up moderation software and have gotten the group off to a
slow start by inviting my buddies over on comp.arch.embedded to
participate. I am now ready to invite more users.

Here is how the moderation works:

Crossposts to one other non-moderated newsgroup are allowed and welcome.
That way you can simply keep posting here as you usually do except for
crossposting to sci.electronics.design,misc.business.product-dev
instead of just posting to ,sci.electronics.design.

I will approve your first post (expect a delay until the next time
I log in as moderator - I do this several times per day) and will
add most posters to the whitelist so that all future posts from them
are autoapproved without delay.

All posts will be approved unless they are obviously spam, off-topic,
or trolling. If you read the read the thread in m.b.p-d, you will
only see posts that are not trolling, flaming, political/religious
posts, etc. I will *not* censor posts for content as long as they
have at least a marginal connection with product development.

Right now misc.business.product-dev is pretty much a dead group,
but I am hoping that I can revive it. I can't do it alone, so
I am asking for your help.

Ah, a Guy-Macon-censored version of s.e.d.

John

======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
If the need is there, someone is going to meet it...

Since s.e.d. is unmoderated, why is there a moderator's comment in my
post? That implies that Guy can, in fact, edit my posts. Which clearly
sucks.

Because he xposted his announcement here (sed) and to his shiny
new wastelanH^H^Hmoderated group. Your newsreader, like most,
assumed by default that you wanted your reply xposted too.

Mark L. Fergerson

 

[Guy Macon]

John Larkin wrote:

Since s.e.d. is unmoderated, why is there a moderator's comment in my
post?

You crosspost to a moderated newsgroup, you take your chances.

That being said, it is my moderation policy to never, ever
edit a post to a newsgroup I moderate, with "edit" meaning
"change something above the moderator's comment line.
I may reject the post, of course.

That implies that Guy can, in fact, edit my posts.

I can, but I won't, and if the possibility of a clearly marked
moderator's comment offends you you are free to stay out of
moderated newsgroups.

Which clearly sucks.

Perhaps. It all depends on who the moderator is and how well he
runs his newsgroup. I don't plan on giving anyone any real reason
to complain, because a moderated newsgroup is useless without users
and so I am motivated to make my target user (someone who wishes to
discuss product development and not George Bush) happy.

There's a reason that most moderated groups are wastelands.

Most moderated groups aren't controlled by me.

...self-appointed-moderator...

Wrong, which is surprising; I would have expected a comment that
was technically accurate. I am not a "self-appointed-moderator."
I am an official big-8 newsgroup moderator of a newsgroup that
passed an RFD/CFV vote for creation. You can learn more at
[ www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/big-eight.html ].

So if I just ignore Guy from now on (as lots of other people
in both groups will likely do) everything should be OK.

That alone will not be effective. You can however, accomplish
your goal by either killfiling everyone who likes talking about
product development in a moderated newsgroup, or by simply
killfiling by the content of the newsgroups line. If you need
technical assistance setting up a killfile, please let me know.

I hope he'll be happy in his snug new newsgroup.

Thanks! We all like happy people in snug newsgroups...

I still don't understand the politics of moderation.
Can somebody come along and decide to moderate s.e.d.?

I am glad that you asked that question. The current big-8
newsgroup policy is to not allow any proposal to moderate an
unmoderated newsgroup to go to a vote. This is done not to
make you happy but for technical reasons; there is a huge
synchronization problem if some newsservers don't change the
status, and there are too many poorly-managed newsservers to
expect them all to update.

If someone has the required 100 more YES than NO votes and
twice as many YES as NO votes (see URL above), they can create
a new group called sci.electronics.design.moderated and try to
attract users, but the unmoderated sci.electronics.design will
still exist.

======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
This is not an actual moderator's comment but is instead a
clever simulation of one. Sci.electronics.design is unmoderated.

 

[Guy Macon]

Mike Monett wrote:

No. You have to change the charter for the newsgroup and users have to
vote. Someone has to commit to be the moderator, but that responsibility
can be handed off to others. The necessary changes are handled by others
somewhere in the internet hierarchy.

You are incorrect. There is no mechanism for changing the charter of an
umoderated newsgroup and you can't moderate sci.electronics.design no
matter how many votes you have. (Your example newsgroup was moderated
in place before the policy change) See post below for details.

;
:From: NAN Moderation Team <newgroups-request@isc.org>
:Newsgroups: news.announce.newgroups,news.groups
:Subject: ANNOUNCEMENT: Moratorium on moderating in place
:Followup-To: news.groups
:Message-ID: <1037169430.16379@isc.org>
:Approved: newgroups-request@isc.org
:Archive-Name: other.articles/moderation-in-place
ate: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 06:37:10 UTC
:
ue to the problems and controversy resulting from moderating a
:newsgroup "in place" (i.e. changing the status of an existing
:newsgroup from unmoderated to moderated), RFDs to perform this
:change of status will no longer be accepted.
:
:Officially, this is a moratorium, meaning that the practice may be
:reinstated at a later date. The value of such proposals will be
:reexamined, after other important issues affecting moderated groups
:have been settled. Among these issues are the removal of dead
:groups, and the transfer of moderatorship when a moderator becomes
:inactive.
:
:These and other issues related to moderation will be discussed in
:more detail, including input from interested parties, upon the
:transfer of infrastructure from that developed by David "Tale"
:Lawrence to the new system planned by the new news.announce.newgroups
:moderation team.
:
roposals for *new* moderated groups will be unaffected by this
:moratorium. The Big-8 Guidelines will be updated to reflect this
:change.
:
:Todd McComb for NAN Team
:

(Also see [ http://www.swcp.com/~dmckeon/mod-faq.html ]. -Guy)

 

[Guy Macon]

Bob Monsen wrote:

Guy Macon wrote:

Crossposts to one other non-moderated newsgroup are allowed and welcome.

Here is a quote from the "Moderated Newsgroup FAQ":

An attempt to cross-post a message to more than one moderated group

What part of "non-moderated" are you having trouble understanding?
The FAQ section talks about "more than one moderated group", while
my post says "one other non-moderated newsgroup." These kids today
with their short attention spans...

Thus, what Guy is suggesting allows him to edit or prohibit your
messages at his whim.

Yup. And some folks (the ones who have left sci.electronics.design
because of the high volume of low-value off-topic posts) like it that
way. You obviously don't, so you should feel free to not post to any
moderated newsgroups and you should feel free to advise those who
like the low-value off-topic posts to do likewise.

At best, it's an unnecessary delay

Nope. The people who want to talk about product design get whitelisted
and can post without any delay.

 

[Rich The Newsgroup Wacko]

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:15:43 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:21:33 CST, John Larkin
On Wed, 1 Jun 2005 20:17:47 CST, Guy Macon

Right now misc.business.product-dev is pretty much a dead group,
but I am hoping that I can revive it. I can't do it alone, so
I am asking for your help.

Ah, a Guy-Macon-censored version of s.e.d.

John


======================================= MODERATOR'S COMMENT:
If the need is there, someone is going to meet it...

Since s.e.d. is unmoderated, why is there a moderator's comment in my
post? That implies that Guy can, in fact, edit my posts. Which clearly
sucks.

Oh, that's because you crossposted a disapproved comment to his personal
group, which is a no-no.

There's a reason that most moderated groups are wastelands.

Yeah, if you want to moderate a discussion, why go to the bother
of making up a USENET newsgroup - just start a mailing list, or
a yahoo group or BLOG or something.
--
Cheers!
Rich
------
"He hated to mend, so young Ned Called in a cute neighbor instead. Her
husband said, "Vi, When you stitched his torn fly, Did you have to bite
off the thread?""

 

[Rich The Newsgroup Wacko]

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 23:40:08 +0100, Terry Pinnell wrote:

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Thu, 2 Jun 2005 14:42:27 -0700, Bob Stephens <roberts@dcxchol.com
wrote:

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:15:43 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

Since s.e.d. is unmoderated, why is there a moderator's comment in my
post? That implies that Guy can, in fact, edit my posts. Which clearly
sucks.

Remember the character in "Mein Kampf" who got picked on when he was a kid
and grew up needing recognition and trying to tell everybody what to do?
*He's* that guy!


Bob

I'm thinking that Guy's original post had header fields that made my
newsreader (Agent) think that the post was in a moderated group, so it
sent an email to the self-appointed-moderator/little-old-lady, instead
to my news-server. Or something like that.

So if I just ignore Guy from now on (as lots of other people in both
groups will likely do) everything should be OK.

I hope he'll be happy in his snug new newsgroup.

I still don't understand the politics of moderation. Can somebody come
along and decide to moderate s.e.d.?

I hope not!

But there are also no limits on flaming! ;-P

Maybe you could call that "moderation by democracy."
--
Cheers!
Rich
------
"A chap down in ol' Oklahoma
Had a cock that could sing La Paloma,
But the sweetness of pitch
Couldn't put off the hitch
Of impotence, size and aroma."

 

[Frank Bemelman]

"Bob Stephens" <roberts@dcxchol.com> schreef in bericht
news:gbgeo1d8sa6u$.cb1hdsra2io9.dlg@40tude.net...

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:15:43 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

Since s.e.d. is unmoderated, why is there a moderator's comment in my
post? That implies that Guy can, in fact, edit my posts. Which clearly
sucks.

Remember the character in "Mein Kampf" who got picked on when he was a kid
and grew up needing recognition and trying to tell everybody what to do?
*He's* that guy!

I suppose everybody knows "Mein Kampf" but no need to wrap the
message. Guy Macon, a NAZI indeed.

Editting messages is the bloody limit. He should be hanged by his balls
for this, shot in the neck, cut into little pieces and further processed
in his own salami sausage factory.

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and 'invalid' when replying by email)

 

[Richard Henry]

"Bob Monsen" <rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:34ednS5IMOxfDwLfRVn-ug@comcast.com...

*Never cross post to his newsgroup.* At best, it's an unnecessary delay;
at worst, it's a childish scheme for getting back at some of this enemies.

Guy Macon has enemies?

 

[Kevin Aylward]

Bob Stephens wrote:

On Thu, 02 Jun 2005 14:15:43 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

Since s.e.d. is unmoderated, why is there a moderator's comment in my
post? That implies that Guy can, in fact, edit my posts. Which
clearly sucks.

Remember the character in "Mein Kampf" who got picked on when he was
a kid and grew up needing recognition and trying to tell everybody
what to do? *He's* that guy!

Indeed he is. One sad pappy.


Kevin Aylward
informationEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk
http://www.anasoft.co.uk
SuperSpice, a very affordable Mixed-Mode
Windows Simulator with Schematic Capture,
Waveform Display, FFT's and Filter Design.

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

On Fri, 3 Jun 2005 06:56:52 -0700, "Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com>
wrote:

"Bob Monsen" <rcsurname@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:34ednS5IMOxfDwLfRVn-ug@comcast.com...
*Never cross post to his newsgroup.* At best, it's an unnecessary delay;
at worst, it's a childish scheme for getting back at some of this enemies.

Guy Macon has enemies?

A few people who wouldn't want to invest their time or energy in
something he controls, at least.

Jon

 

[Guy Macon]

Frank Bemelman wrote:

Editting messages is the bloody limit.

....would be, if not for the fact that it isn't true.

I do thank you and Bob Stephens, though. Accusing someone of
editing messages, being a Nazi, etc. is an excellent example
of why someone who desires to have a civil discussion might
wish to use a moderated m=newsgroup. The worse you act up the
better getting away from you looks. Thanks!