Why is layout/schematic software so klunky?

K

kmaryan@gmail.com

Guest
This may be a bit OT for this group, but given the audience here, I
thought I'd get better feedback.

I've recently had the opportunity to review a number of schematic and
layout packages and have come to the conclusion that everything out
there sucks. There is very little that is intuitive and many of the
features are poorly integrated. I'm not compeltely against these
packages, but I see a lot of room for improvement.

In mechanical cad, a few years ago there was a bit of a revolution when
SolidWorks, SolidEdge and to a lesser extent Pro/E suddenly came out as
intuitive, well designed packages and simply blew AutoCAD drafting off
the map. So why hasn't the same thing happened in the elec eng world
and do people still put up with all the oddities of OrCAD and the like?

Any thoughts?

Chris
 
kmaryan@gmail.com wrote:
In mechanical cad, a few years ago there was a bit of a revolution when
SolidWorks, SolidEdge and to a lesser extent Pro/E suddenly came out as
intuitive, well designed packages and simply blew AutoCAD drafting off
the map. So why hasn't the same thing happened in the elec eng world
and do people still put up with all the oddities of OrCAD and the like?
Click to expand...
I'd guess that perhaps 100 mechanical CAD packages are sold (at all
levels) for each PCB CAD package, so the development costs can be
amortized over many more sales. Also it's fairly 'obvious' what a
mechanical CAD system is trying to do- produce solid objects. PCB
technology is a moving target, and what I as a user really want is
something that ensures my design will work first go, hence the evolution
of CAD systems to include simulation, EMC and heat analysis etc. I'd
really like it integrated with mechanical CAD too.

Paul Burke
 
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 01:27:44 +0000, Joerg wrote:

Hi There,

Try Cadsoft Eagle. I found it easy to learn and was humming before
reading the user manual that came with it. The only thing I find a bit
weird is the library editor but I guess that just takes time getting
used to. Eagle is nicely integrated.
Click to expand...
Let me add my vote for EAGLE. I've designed a couple of boards with it and
have found it to be excellent software. It also works nicely on linux and
windows.

Regards,
Alan


--
Alan R. Turner | Live never to be ashamed of anything you do or say.
To reply by email, remove Mr Blobby.
 
"Roger Lascelles" <invalidl@invalid.invalid> wrote in message >
Then you find
individuals who love Protel, but I think they haven't thought about the
issues. How can people pay $1000s for slow, bugged, amateur software ?
Click to expand...
Because the semi-pro/pro packages (ie. Orcad) cost at least 10 times that?

/A
 
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 16:05:22 +0100, Frithiof Andreas Jensen wrote:

DOS Orcad was neat - there were Two Bugs: I did not "hash-fill" properly on
rotated components in the schematics editor and lines had to be butted
together to connect (and sometimes netlists had to be hand-fitted to the

*then* "they" fucked it over by adding features until the
once-simple-but-usable tool collapsed under it's own weight!
Click to expand...
It was a sad day when OrCad adopted the Windows platform...


Bob
 
Somewhat OT, but related. I am just wondering what kind of software do
they use to create the amazing stuff like the modern PC motherboards,
and to simulate their performance at GHz frequencies. Some secret
in-house software, or some widely known stuff? In any case that must be
some pretty capable software... Thanks.

-- Andy
 
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 18:57:44 +0100, Andy <andy@nodomain.nod> wrote:

Somewhat OT, but related. I am just wondering what kind of software do
they use to create the amazing stuff like the modern PC motherboards,
and to simulate their performance at GHz frequencies. Some secret
in-house software, or some widely known stuff? In any case that must be
some pretty capable software... Thanks.
Click to expand...
I proved (the hard way) that it is possible to use Protel for 10GHz
designs.

But this is just using Protel as a dumb drawing package; it basically
offers no features that are needed for modern designs (like routing
differential traces, or matching lengths of traces, or controlling
impedance along a path (through vias) or anything else that makes
modern PCB design interesting).

Regards,
Allan
 
Andy wrote:

Somewhat OT, but related. I am just wondering what kind of software do
they use to create the amazing stuff like the modern PC motherboards,
and to simulate their performance at GHz frequencies. Some secret
in-house software, or some widely known stuff? In any case that must be
some pretty capable software... Thanks.

-- Andy
Click to expand...
Cadence Design and Mentor Graphics both sell high-end stuff like that.
On the front end you can specify a gazillion parameters for each signal
(controlled impedances, sets of traces with matching length, etc.) and
on the back end you can feed it all into a giant simulation engine that
checks (somewhat) for EMI and other signal integrity issues.

But it's still clunky to use.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
 
In article <421cc418$0$25027$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr>,
andy@nodomain.nod says...
Somewhat OT, but related. I am just wondering what kind of software do
they use to create the amazing stuff like the modern PC motherboards,
and to simulate their performance at GHz frequencies. Some secret
in-house software, or some widely known stuff? In any case that must be
some pretty capable software... Thanks.
Click to expand...
PC motherboards are done by people who have done it a time or a hundred
before. Much is seat-of-the-pants. Some higher-end hardware
developers use in-house software that makes the commercial stuff look
rather pale. Sometimes this "super-secret" in-house stuff (or the
result) is talked about at conferences.

--
Keith
 
Joerg wrote:

I am still missing my trusty old DOS-Orcad. That was the best, hands
down. Number of crashes in about ten years: Zero.
Click to expand...
Does anyone if it's still possible to purchase Orcad for DOS?
I believe that version V4.42 was the last of the DOS versions.
 
Hello Guy,

Does anyone if it's still possible to purchase Orcad for DOS?
I believe that version V4.42 was the last of the DOS versions.
Click to expand...
I do not believe you could. AFAIK it is out of support and then stuff is
usually dropped. My favorite was SDT III. Lean, fast and rock solid. It
ran on a late 80's Wang laptop with 1MB, no sweat. And the board I did
on that old laptop was huge, about the size of a birthday cake.

The problem with a lot of DOS packages is that printer output and other
peripheral usage becomes increasingly difficult. Once I ended up having
to write part of my own printer driver. That was definitely not my
favorite chore.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
 
Hello Roger,

... How can people pay $1000s for slow, bugged, amateur software ?
Click to expand...
For about $800 you can buy the full professional edition of Cadsoft
Eagle schematic and layout. If you want the autorouter that's another
$400 for the full version. Not so bad and this is certainly not amateur
SW but serious stuff.

I don't know how well their autorouter works because my designs cannot
be autorouted.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com
 
Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Roger,

... How can people pay $1000s for slow, bugged, amateur software ?
Click to expand...
If you pay enough for - should we name it "Slow And Bugged Amateur
Software", SABAS in short? - it is'nt SABAS anymore. It's the best you
can afford, so you tolerate the quirks. And you, for your own's sake,
will not admit yourself to have bought SABAS.

For about $800 you can buy the full professional edition of Cadsoft
Eagle schematic and layout. If you want the autorouter that's another
$400 for the full version. Not so bad and this is certainly not amateur
SW but serious stuff.
Click to expand...
Isn't something like this called stuff for the "Prosumer" :)

When I first evaluated CAD packages, about mid 80's, I found 3
classes. One running upto about $1000, with serious shortcomings, each
of which can be a show-stopper. More Kindergarten in the low end,
really useable in the upper end of this class, but you have to know
the limits, keep your designs in the limits and select your
manufacturers accordingly. A second, about $5k. Also serious
shortcomings, but no show-stoppers in sight. You can compensate the
shortcomings with working hours. And serious stuff, $10k up. With
shortcomings. Some of them can be healed by another $5k, others
require working hours.

I did not really look at the $50k up class.

After deciding for one product of the middle class, I furtheron only
cursory observed the market, looking for the WonderWare, and could not
see any change in this classes. Sure, all the products change their
faces, and features are coming and coming. But I haven't seen a real
new kid in town (except for Oliver Bartels BAE, which I haven't
evaluated), there's noone breaking this class society.

Andreas
--
You are not allowed to call yourself an engineer until you've "smoked"
at least 100 circuits *and* understand why they "smoked" ;-)
- Jim Thompson
 
Jim Thompson wrote:

I actually used, and loved, OrCAD SDT while it was DOS-based. Then it
became the BIGGEST ABORTION EVER IN HISTORY in the transition to a GUI
Click to expand...
I worked as an instructor for OrCAD while it was DOS-based. I got
a better job before the <spit!> Windows version <happy noises>.
They outdid themselves after making the Windows schematic capture
the worst abotrion in history with an EVEN WORSE PWB layout program.
I tried and tried to make the autorouter work. Finally I tried routing
a very simple circuit - a through-hole resistor and a capacitor in
parallel. The OrCad autorouter took over five minutes to route it
and the result had 27 vias! What kind of management allows allows
something like that to ship?

--
Guy Macon <http://www.guymacon.com/>
 
richard wrote:

That is what I like about TARGET3001 CAD program.
Click to expand...
http://www.ibfriedrich.com/english/index.htm

42 to 2,585 Euros, depending on version.
 
"Andy" <andy@nodomain.nod> wrote in message
news:421cc418$0$25027$8fcfb975@news.wanadoo.fr...
Somewhat OT, but related. I am just wondering what kind of software do
they use to create the amazing stuff like the modern PC motherboards,
and to simulate their performance at GHz frequencies. Some secret
in-house software, or some widely known stuff? In any case that must be
some pretty capable software... Thanks.
Click to expand...
Mentor Graphics - with some of the Hewlett Packard EM extensions (They are
Chinese, so there are no licensing costs ;-)

Mentor can do almost anything, given enough USD!
 
"richard" <rwimmer@deyselectronics.com> wrote in message
news:1109209996.386985.121330@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
That is what I like about TARGET3001 CAD program. This schematic,
layout program is integrated in one surface, easy to use and still
powerful. ..richard
Click to expand...
Does it still insist on installing on "C:"? I mean, The "nakid" silver
wimmen on the Ads I can take - it is a German product after all - but:

*That Part* put me right off even trying it, alluding to total DOS/MASM
Cruftiness and firm developer belief systems hardcoded everywhere ;-)

.... and if the Install is broken, Uninstall will be more broken and then my
PeeCee will be broken also.
 
Thanks to everyone who has provided the feedback. Very insightful!

-- Andy
 
Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message

Hello Guy,

Does anyone if it's still possible to purchase Orcad for DOS?
I believe that version V4.42 was the last of the DOS versions.

I do not believe you could. AFAIK it is out of support and then stuff is
usually dropped. My favorite was SDT III. Lean, fast and rock solid. It
ran on a late 80's Wang laptop with 1MB, no sweat. And the board I did
on that old laptop was huge, about the size of a birthday cake.
Click to expand...
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Hidden/DOS/OrCADIII-DOS.zip
Courtesy R. Steve Walz.

Cheers!
Rich
 
Nico Coesel wrote:

I'm not unsatisfied with Orcad. For PCBs the best piece of software
I've used so far is Layo1. The author/creator of that package has been
in the PCB layout software business for over 15 years and uses his own
package for layout work (he seems to do a lot of layouts for Philips's
evaluation boards). I'm amazed I'm always the only one to mention this
piece of software in threads like these. Has no-one ever heard of it?
Click to expand...
First I have ever heard of it. It looks like I would have to shell
out 100 to 200 euros (multiply euros by 1.3 to get US dollars) in order
to get something that will do big multilayer boards.

http://www.baas.nl/layo1pcb/uk/index.html
 
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