What is inside an LED "starter"

[Peeler]

On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 02:45:48 -0000 (UTC), Diesel, another mentally retarded,
notorious, troll-feeding, senile IDIOT, blathered again:

"William Gothberg" <"William Gothberg"@internet.co.is
newsp.zuaephp9o5piw3@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan Wed, 19 Dec 2018 20:47:31
GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Not expensive enough to bother. I often buy brand new caps on
Ebay for peanuts (just got a couple to repair 2 switched mode PSUs
- one for a monitor and one for an insect zapper). Used ones
wouldn't be worth much.

Ahh. What is your preferred desoldering method? Have you used any of
the new SMP quikchip stuff yet?

Reviving an over two months old thread, just to be able to suck off that
abnormal troll again, you demented, senile piece of shit?

 

[Peeler]

On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 04:23:22 -0000 (UTC), Diesel, another mentally deficient,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, driveled:

That's touching. I can desolder two usb ports in under a minute without
damaging the board or the ports. I could have gotten the other two off
the donor board within another 30-45 seconds or so.

You obviously can suck him off faster than any of the other seniles here,
even if it takes you over two months until you make up your mind, senile
idiot!

 

[Art Todesco]

On 12/19/2018 9:23 AM, William Gothberg wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:51:53 -0000, Art Todesco <actodesco@yahoo.com
wrote:

On 12/19/2018 7:35 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:18:54 -0000, Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com
wrote:

William Gothberg <"William Gothberg"@internet.co.is> wrote

Those fake starters people put into fluorescent fittings when they
put in
an LED tube.... what's inside?

A bit of wire between the pins.

An LED tube draws power from the two ends, I looked inside one of my
tubes
and the two pins at each end are shorted together.

They don't all do it the same way.

The LED PSU takes power from both ends if you see what I mean, it
expects
live at one end and neutral at the other.  So why on earth would you
need
anything in the starter, even if you left the ballast in?

Because the simple bimetallic strip starters have the pins
on the starter connected initially and not connected
when it warms up due to the current between the pins.

Surely it's best to have the starter open circuit, i.e. just remove
it.

Some do work like that.

Does it perhaps in some way negate the inductive nature of the
ballast to
be nicer to the LED PSU?

No it does not. So its better, but not as easy, to disconnect the
ballast as
well.

The properly made LED tubes are connected live at one end and neutral at
the other.  You just remove the starter, and the LEDs operate in series
with the ballast (or directly to the mains if you can be bothered
opening the casing and shorting/removing the ballast).

So the tubes where they have live and neutral on the same end, require
supplying a fake starter instead of just removing it, surely an
unnecessary extra expense.  The only reason I can find for making them
like this is some daft safety regulation about having live and neutral
at opposite ends.  Better insulation required to meet safety standards
incase you grab live and neutral with your two hands?  Surely either the
casing of the LED tube is metal, which means you can't get a different
voltage on each hand, or plastic, which means it won't conduct power to
you.
I just bought some LED 4' tubes that can be wired any way you want.  I
don't know the internal circuitry, but I do plan to dissect one to find
out.  These can be powered from one end (either one), both ends and,
when powering from both ends, the pins can be shunted or not.  There
seems to be no combination that doesn't work!

I can think of a way it might be connected, but please look inside to
satisfy our curiosity!

Kinda like a bridge rectifier but with 4 inputs instead of 2 - any pin
of the tube being positive goes through a positive diode, any pin being
negative goes through a negative diode (as in connected backwards).

You know, a diagram would be easier:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/clfblkmb6pyqyl8/tube.jpg?dl=0
Sorry this took sooooo long, but I just reverse engineered it.

Here's the way it is. There are 2 full wave rectifiers. The DC outputs
are connected together; + of each and - of each. These feed the
converter which is the standard chip, pulsing a transformer. The output
of this is 1/2 wave rectified, filtered and goes to the string of LEDs.
Now back to the 2 full wave rectifiers (FWR). One input to the 1st FWR
comes from a pin on one end of the tube and the other input to the 1st
FWR comes a pin on the other end. The 2nd FWR is wired the same way,
except it uses the unused pins on the ends of the tube. For some reason
there is a 5 ohm resistor in 3 of the 4 inputs to the FWRs. The 4th is
direct connected. But if you trace is out, you can supply 120 VAC to
any 2 pins and it works. You can even power from one end and short the
pins on the other end and it still works. Clever!

 

[Andrew Gabriel]

On 02/03/2019 19:20, Art Todesco wrote:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/clfblkmb6pyqyl8/tube.jpg?dl=0
Sorry this took sooooo long, but I just reverse engineered it.

Here's the way it is.  There are 2 full wave rectifiers.  The DC outputs
are connected together; + of each and - of each.  These feed the
converter which is the standard chip, pulsing a transformer.  The output
of this is 1/2 wave rectified, filtered and goes to the string of LEDs.
Now back to the 2 full wave rectifiers (FWR).  One input to the 1st FWR
comes from a pin on one end of the tube and the other input to the 1st
FWR comes a pin on the other end.  The 2nd FWR is wired the same way,
except it uses the unused pins on the ends of the tube.  For some reason
there is a 5 ohm resistor in 3 of the 4 inputs to the FWRs.  The 4th is
direct connected.  But if you trace is out, you can supply 120 VAC to
any 2 pins and it works.  You can even power from one end and short the
pins on the other end and it still works.  Clever!

The resistors are to limit the inrush current when initially charging
the completely discharged capacitor at switch-on.

--
Andrew Gabriel

 

[Diesel]

Peeler <troll@trap.invalid> news:Sb8eE.9137$Apg.4459@usenetxs.com
Fri, 01 Mar 2019 10:53:55 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Fri, 1 Mar 2019 04:23:22 -0000 (UTC), Diesel, another mentally
deficient, troll-feeding, senile idiot, driveled:




That's touching. I can desolder two usb ports in under a minute
without damaging the board or the ports. I could have gotten the
other two off the donor board within another 30-45 seconds or so.

You obviously can suck him off faster than any of the other
seniles here, even if it takes you over two months until you make
up your mind, senile idiot!

I lost you at the word desolder didn't I? It's the opposite of
soldering. I know, you'll need to lookup the word soldering now. Sorry,
it's for the best. Anything to improve your knowledge, right?


--
'Montana --- At least our cows are sane!'

 

[Diesel]

Peeler <troll@trap.invalid> news:sa8eE.15138$VA7.7608@usenetxs.com
Fri, 01 Mar 2019 10:52:25 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

On Thu, 21 Feb 2019 02:45:48 -0000 (UTC), Diesel, another mentally
retarded, notorious, troll-feeding, senile IDIOT, blathered again:

"William Gothberg" <"William Gothberg"@internet.co.is
newsp.zuaephp9o5piw3@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan Wed, 19 Dec 2018
20:47:31 GMT in alt.home.repair, wrote:

Not expensive enough to bother. I often buy brand new caps on
Ebay for peanuts (just got a couple to repair 2 switched mode
PSUs - one for a monitor and one for an insect zapper). Used
ones wouldn't be worth much.

Ahh. What is your preferred desoldering method? Have you used any
of the new SMP quikchip stuff yet?

Reviving an over two months old thread, just to be able to suck
off that abnormal troll again, you demented, senile piece of shit?

Was it desoldering, SMP, or quikchip that made the discussion too far
above your paygrade to participate?


--
Initiative comes to those who wait.

 

[Peeler]

On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 04:36:52 -0000 (UTC), Diesel, an obviously mentally
handicapped senile idiot, wrote:

You obviously can suck him off faster than any of the other
seniles here, even if it takes you over two months until you make
up your mind, senile idiot!

I lost you at the word desolder didn't I? It's the opposite of
soldering. I know, you'll need to lookup the word soldering now. Sorry,
it's for the best. Anything to improve your knowledge, right?

Sorry, but you are even seniler than I already knew you were, you
troll-feeding senile idiot.

 

[Peeler]

On Sun, 3 Mar 2019 04:36:53 -0000 (UTC), Diesel, an obviously mentally
handicapped senile idiot, driveled again:

Reviving an over two months old thread, just to be able to suck
off that abnormal troll again, you demented, senile piece of shit?

Was it desoldering, SMP, or quikchip that made the discussion too far
above your paygrade to participate?

The senile idiot just doesn't get it! LOL

F'up to alt.seniles

 

[Mark Lloyd]

On 3/2/19 1:20 PM, Art Todesco wrote:

[snip]

Here's the way it is.  There are 2 full wave rectifiers.  The DC outputs
are connected together; + of each and - of each.  These feed the
converter which is the standard chip, pulsing a transformer.  The output
of this is 1/2 wave rectified, filtered and goes to the string of LEDs.
Now back to the 2 full wave rectifiers (FWR).  One input to the 1st FWR
comes from a pin on one end of the tube and the other input to the 1st
FWR comes a pin on the other end.  The 2nd FWR is wired the same way,
except it uses the unused pins on the ends of the tube.  For some reason
there is a 5 ohm resistor in 3 of the 4 inputs to the FWRs.  The 4th is
direct connected.  But if you trace is out, you can supply 120 VAC to
any 2 pins and it works.  You can even power from one end and short the
pins on the other end and it still works.  Clever!

And I seem to remember some that work on any supply voltage from 120V to
277V.

--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"I don't see any god up here." -- Yuri Gagarin (1934-1968), Soviet
cosmonaut

 

[Max Demian]

On 03/03/2019 18:59, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 3/2/19 1:20 PM, Art Todesco wrote:

[snip]

Here's the way it is.  There are 2 full wave rectifiers.  The DC
outputs are connected together; + of each and - of each.  These feed
the converter which is the standard chip, pulsing a transformer.  The
output of this is 1/2 wave rectified, filtered and goes to the string
of LEDs. Now back to the 2 full wave rectifiers (FWR).  One input to
the 1st FWR comes from a pin on one end of the tube and the other
input to the 1st FWR comes a pin on the other end.  The 2nd FWR is
wired the same way, except it uses the unused pins on the ends of the
tube.  For some reason there is a 5 ohm resistor in 3 of the 4 inputs
to the FWRs.  The 4th is direct connected.  But if you trace is out,
you can supply 120 VAC to any 2 pins and it works.  You can even power
from one end and short the pins on the other end and it still works.
Clever!

And I seem to remember some that work on any supply voltage from 120V to
277V.

Did anyone need to run a TV on DC, or was it just to save having a heavy
mains transformer?

There were certainly AC/DC *radios* that would cope with 120V to 250V or
so. Needed a whopping great dropper resistor when working on the higher
voltages. I used to have such a (portable valve) radio which would work
on battery as well. The dropper was originally in the mains lead but had
been replaced with a component in the case.

--
Max Demian

 

[Rod Speed]

"Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:U5Gdnfm02MNroOHBnZ2dnUU78cvNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...

On 03/03/2019 18:59, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 3/2/19 1:20 PM, Art Todesco wrote:

[snip]

Here's the way it is. There are 2 full wave rectifiers. The DC outputs
are connected together; + of each and - of each. These feed the
converter which is the standard chip, pulsing a transformer. The output
of this is 1/2 wave rectified, filtered and goes to the string of LEDs.
Now back to the 2 full wave rectifiers (FWR). One input to the 1st FWR
comes from a pin on one end of the tube and the other input to the 1st
FWR comes a pin on the other end. The 2nd FWR is wired the same way,
except it uses the unused pins on the ends of the tube. For some reason
there is a 5 ohm resistor in 3 of the 4 inputs to the FWRs. The 4th is
direct connected. But if you trace is out, you can supply 120 VAC to
any 2 pins and it works. You can even power from one end and short the
pins on the other end and it still works. Clever!

And I seem to remember some that work on any supply voltage from 120V to
277V.

Did anyone need to run a TV on DC,

Yeah, a small portable CRT TV could run on 12V

or was it just to save having a heavy mains transformer?

There were certainly AC/DC *radios* that would cope with 120V to 250V or
so. Needed a whopping great dropper resistor when working on the higher
voltages. I used to have such a (portable valve) radio which would work on
battery as well.

Yeah, my first portable radio did it that way.

The dropper was originally in the mains lead but had been replaced with a
component in the case.

 

[Peeler]

On Sat, 2 Mar 2019 14:20:54 -0500, Art Todesco, an especially retarded,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered:

Kinda like a bridge rectifier but with 4 inputs instead of 2 - any pin
of the tube being positive goes through a positive diode, any pin being
negative goes through a negative diode (as in connected backwards).

You know, a diagram would be easier:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/clfblkmb6pyqyl8/tube.jpg?dl=0
Sorry this took sooooo long

REALLY, you retarded troll-feeding senile piece of shit?

 

[Peeler]

On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 08:08:09 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:

Yeah, my first portable radio did it that way.

Nobody gives a shit, senile Ozzie troll!

--
MrTurnip@down.the.farm about senile Rot Speed:
"This is like having a conversation with someone with brain damage."
MID: <ps10v9$uo2$1@gioia.aioe.org>

 

[Max Demian]

On 03/03/2019 21:08, Rod Speed wrote:

"Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:U5Gdnfm02MNroOHBnZ2dnUU78cvNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
On 03/03/2019 18:59, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 3/2/19 1:20 PM, Art Todesco wrote:

[snip]

Here's the way it is.  There are 2 full wave rectifiers.  The DC
outputs are connected together; + of each and - of each.  These feed
the converter which is the standard chip, pulsing a transformer.
The output of this is 1/2 wave rectified, filtered and goes to the
string of LEDs. Now back to the 2 full wave rectifiers (FWR).  One
input to the 1st FWR comes from a pin on one end of the tube and the
other input to the 1st FWR comes a pin on the other end.  The 2nd
FWR is wired the same way, except it uses the unused pins on the
ends of the tube.  For some reason there is a 5 ohm resistor in 3 of
the 4 inputs to the FWRs.  The 4th is direct connected.  But if you
trace is out, you can supply 120 VAC to any 2 pins and it works.
You can even power from one end and short the pins on the other end
and it still works.  Clever!

And I seem to remember some that work on any supply voltage from 120V
to 277V.

Did anyone need to run a TV on DC,

Yeah, a small portable CRT TV could run on 12V

"Obviously" I was talking about DC *mains*. Portables that you could run
off a car battery as well as AC mains were available in the eighties
(and beyond no doubt).

or was it just to save having a heavy mains transformer?

There were certainly AC/DC *radios* that would cope with 120V to 250V
or so. Needed a whopping great dropper resistor when working on the
higher voltages. I used to have such a (portable valve) radio which
would work on battery as well.

Yeah, my first portable radio did it that way.

*Valve*??

The dropper was originally in the mains lead but had been replaced
with a component in the case.

--
Max Demian

 

[Roger Hayter]

Max Demian <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

On 03/03/2019 18:59, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 3/2/19 1:20 PM, Art Todesco wrote:

[snip]

Here's the way it is. There are 2 full wave rectifiers. The DC
outputs are connected together; + of each and - of each. These feed
the converter which is the standard chip, pulsing a transformer. The
output of this is 1/2 wave rectified, filtered and goes to the string
of LEDs. Now back to the 2 full wave rectifiers (FWR). One input to
the 1st FWR comes from a pin on one end of the tube and the other
input to the 1st FWR comes a pin on the other end. The 2nd FWR is
wired the same way, except it uses the unused pins on the ends of the
tube. For some reason there is a 5 ohm resistor in 3 of the 4 inputs
to the FWRs. The 4th is direct connected. But if you trace is out,
you can supply 120 VAC to any 2 pins and it works. You can even power
from one end and short the pins on the other end and it still works.
Clever!

And I seem to remember some that work on any supply voltage from 120V to
277V.

Did anyone need to run a TV on DC, or was it just to save having a heavy
mains transformer?

I don't know when the last public DC mains supply was replaced, but I
tend to think that AC/DC TVs were actually designed to work on DC mains
up to the early 1950s at least.

There were certainly AC/DC *radios* that would cope with 120V to 250V or
so. Needed a whopping great dropper resistor when working on the higher
voltages. I used to have such a (portable valve) radio which would work
on battery as well. The dropper was originally in the mains lead but had
been replaced with a component in the case.

--

Roger Hayter

 

[Rod Speed]

"Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
newssKdne6Qrs3cy-HBnZ2dnUU78KfNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...

On 03/03/2019 21:08, Rod Speed wrote:


"Max Demian" <max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:U5Gdnfm02MNroOHBnZ2dnUU78cvNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
On 03/03/2019 18:59, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On 3/2/19 1:20 PM, Art Todesco wrote:

[snip]

Here's the way it is. There are 2 full wave rectifiers. The DC
outputs are connected together; + of each and - of each. These feed
the converter which is the standard chip, pulsing a transformer. The
output of this is 1/2 wave rectified, filtered and goes to the string
of LEDs. Now back to the 2 full wave rectifiers (FWR). One input to
the 1st FWR comes from a pin on one end of the tube and the other
input to the 1st FWR comes a pin on the other end. The 2nd FWR is
wired the same way, except it uses the unused pins on the ends of the
tube. For some reason there is a 5 ohm resistor in 3 of the 4 inputs
to the FWRs. The 4th is direct connected. But if you trace is out,
you can supply 120 VAC to any 2 pins and it works. You can even power
from one end and short the pins on the other end and it still works.
Clever!

And I seem to remember some that work on any supply voltage from 120V
to 277V.

Did anyone need to run a TV on DC,

Yeah, a small portable CRT TV could run on 12V

"Obviously" I was talking about DC *mains*. Portables that you could run
off a car battery as well as AC mains were available in the eighties (and
beyond no doubt).

or was it just to save having a heavy mains transformer?

There were certainly AC/DC *radios* that would cope with 120V to 250V or
so. Needed a whopping great dropper resistor when working on the higher
voltages. I used to have such a (portable valve) radio which would work
on battery as well.

Yeah, my first portable radio did it that way.

*Valve*??

Yep, full line of valves designed for that situation.

The dropper was originally in the mains lead but had been replaced with
a component in the case.

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 03/03/2019 20:49, Max Demian wrote:

Did anyone need to run a TV on DC, or was it just to save having a heavy
mains transformer?

All valve TVS ran on DC.

The questin really was if they could be made cheaper by having all te
heaters in series designed to run off mains and all the HT simply
rectified mains dropped via a big fat resistor to the sort of 200V area
that valves rather liked.

Just dint touch the live chassis if you plugged it in wrong.

There were certainly AC/DC *radios* that would cope with 120V to 250V or
so. Needed a whopping great dropper resistor when working on the higher
voltages. I used to have such a (portable valve) radio which would work
on battery as well. The dropper was originally in the mains lead but had
been replaced with a component in the case.

These days its perfectly possible to have an SMPSU that works from 24VDC
to 400V AC.


Without needing to be switched between. I suspect all military kit
features such.



--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

 

[Peeler]

On Mon, 4 Mar 2019 11:59:30 +1100, cantankerous trolling senile geezer Rot
Speed blabbered, again:

Yeah, my first portable radio did it that way.

*Valve*??

Yep, full line of valves designed for that situation.

Those were the times! NO way for psychopathic assholes like you to pester
people at a far distance with their obnoxious presence!

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"Shit you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID: <ogoa38$pul$1@news.mixmin.net>

 

[Art Todesco]

On 12/19/2018 9:23 AM, William Gothberg wrote:

On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:51:53 -0000, Art Todesco <actodesco@yahoo.com
wrote:

On 12/19/2018 7:35 AM, William Gothberg wrote:
On Wed, 19 Dec 2018 12:18:54 -0000, Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com
wrote:

William Gothberg <"William Gothberg"@internet.co.is> wrote

Those fake starters people put into fluorescent fittings when they
put in
an LED tube.... what's inside?

A bit of wire between the pins.

An LED tube draws power from the two ends, I looked inside one of my
tubes
and the two pins at each end are shorted together.

They don't all do it the same way.

The LED PSU takes power from both ends if you see what I mean, it
expects
live at one end and neutral at the other.  So why on earth would you
need
anything in the starter, even if you left the ballast in?

Because the simple bimetallic strip starters have the pins
on the starter connected initially and not connected
when it warms up due to the current between the pins.

Surely it's best to have the starter open circuit, i.e. just remove
it.

Some do work like that.

Does it perhaps in some way negate the inductive nature of the
ballast to
be nicer to the LED PSU?

No it does not. So its better, but not as easy, to disconnect the
ballast as
well.

The properly made LED tubes are connected live at one end and neutral at
the other.  You just remove the starter, and the LEDs operate in series
with the ballast (or directly to the mains if you can be bothered
opening the casing and shorting/removing the ballast).

So the tubes where they have live and neutral on the same end, require
supplying a fake starter instead of just removing it, surely an
unnecessary extra expense.  The only reason I can find for making them
like this is some daft safety regulation about having live and neutral
at opposite ends.  Better insulation required to meet safety standards
incase you grab live and neutral with your two hands?  Surely either the
casing of the LED tube is metal, which means you can't get a different
voltage on each hand, or plastic, which means it won't conduct power to
you.
I just bought some LED 4' tubes that can be wired any way you want.  I
don't know the internal circuitry, but I do plan to dissect one to find
out.  These can be powered from one end (either one), both ends and,
when powering from both ends, the pins can be shunted or not.  There
seems to be no combination that doesn't work!

I can think of a way it might be connected, but please look inside to
satisfy our curiosity!

Kinda like a bridge rectifier but with 4 inputs instead of 2 - any pin
of the tube being positive goes through a positive diode, any pin being
negative goes through a negative diode (as in connected backwards).

You know, a diagram would be easier:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/clfblkmb6pyqyl8/tube.jpg?dl=0

I finally had a chance to reverse engineer my 4' LED tubes that can be
powered between any 2 of the 4 pins and Gothberg is right. You can view
a partial schematic at
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18wKHTOjIiz3DIBDzOOQ8aaDCPZ9ld8vn/view?usp=sharing
I didn't bother with the actually converter as it appeared to be a
custom chip pulsing a transformer of which the output is rectified,
filtered and feed the LEDs. It is a clever design.

 

[Peeler]

On Tue, 5 Mar 2019 13:32:55 -0500, Art Todesco, an especially retarded,
troll-feeding senile idiot, blathered:

I didn't bother with the actually converter as it appeared to be a
custom chip pulsing a transformer of which the output is rectified,
filtered and feed the LEDs. It is a clever design.

His trolls are cleverly designed enough that some brain damaged senile idiot
like you will KEEP come running along to suck him off, time and again! <BG>