Time to Upgrade ?:-}

Rev. 11D Meow! · Aug 3, 2015

you want the Intel Xeon E5-2699 v3 @ 2.30GHz
w/ 128GB 0.5CLK DDR5 Quad-Channel RAM for sure

and a bunch of SATA-4 drives to boot from

and that OS the Cray folks run these days...

Martin Brown · Aug 3, 2015

On 02/08/2015 19:19, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 8/2/2015 2:08 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 13:27:14 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

[snip]

I have a very nice 16-core Opteron machine that I'm very happy with.
Apart from needing the PSU replaced a year or so back, it's been running
flawlessly for about 4-1/2 years, and it has a lot of stooch (150 Gflops
peak). The details are:

Supermicro tower server with 2 AMD Opteron Magny-Cours 8-core
processors, 32 GB of RAM, 4x 1 TB HDDs
CentOS 6.4 Linux, with Win 7 Pro 64 bit and Win XP 32-bit in KVM virtual
machines
1 pc ACC-3C0-3C13685 Supermicro Chassis 733TQ
1 pc ACC-3C0-3C13685 SUPERMICRO H8DGI OR H8DGI-F
1 pc Adaptec 6405 RAID controller board
1 pc XFX ATI Radeon HD6670 1 GB DDR3 VGA/DVI/HDMI PCI-Express Video
Card HD667XZHF3
2 pcs CFN-OTH-AC170 2 OPTERON COOLING FAN
2 pcs AMD OPTERON 6128 8-CORE 16 TOTAL CORES
8 pcs MM3-KIN-4G133ER KINGSTON 4GB DDR3 ECC REGISTERED CL9
1.35-1.5V (32gb of ram installed)
4 pcs HDA-WDC-WD1002F WDC RE4 1TB CDW-LGE-22XSATA
1 pc GOLDSTAR DVDRW 22X GH22NS30

Since AMD has kind of stumbled since Magny Cours (Bulldozer and
Piledriver were dogs), you might want to use Intel instead, but the
Supermicro systems are tops.

The whole thing was about $3800 from a highish-class reseller, Alvio,
whom I've dealt with a few times and like very well. (Tell Aleksandr I
said 'Hi.")

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Living in seclusion ;-) for quite awhile... what's the best Intel
processor for number crunching?

...Jim Thompson

Dunno, I haven't needed to buy . Beautiful Layout Hunchback has a Core
i7 quad machine (Win 7) that she likes, also purchased from Alvio. Given
that it's your daily tool, I suggest finding a good VAR and taking their
advice. It'll cost a bit more, but you're likely to be happy with the
results.

Win7 is still preferable though leave it another year or so and Win 10
may have bedded down. Avoid Win8 unless you like pain.

A slightly devious approach is to look at machines favoured by the local
3D gaming community and persuade the supplier to build you one *without*
the high performance graphics card. i7 2D graphics are as fast as
dedicated cards. Unless you want 3D gaming you can live without. There
is a big power saving to be had there too.

A good heuristic is to choose a CPU that is just behind the bleeding
edge and offers the best or nearly the best bang per buck for the sorts
of thing you are doing. You can't have enough ram for simulations.

It depends a bit on your local market. If I was buying today price no
object then maybe i7-5930K but realistically i7 4790K. I have an
aversion to AMD due to self immolation but two are better than it.

Check local reviews for reliability and build quality. Clocked normally
the thing will be fast and don't waste your money on super fast ram like
I did improvement is marginal. A fast agile SSD for scratch files and
most frequently used programs is very worthwhile.

Not convinced by the Intel smart SSD cache of a big disk. Mine died
permanently after about two years flawless operation. I live without it
since major work files live on the Samsung SSD (consider also Crucial).

(on the plus side no data was lost when it pegged out)

Beware of makers that game the benchmarks!

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

dcaster@krl.org · Aug 3, 2015

On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 8:48:42 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

We backup design releases to CDs, which I store in the cave at home.
Some are 10 years old, and I occasionally have to retrieve one. So
far, it has always worked.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
lunatic fringe electronics

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

I have had CD's that were no longer 100 % readable.

Dan

Jim Thompson · Aug 3, 2015

On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 11:18:17 -0700, Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> wrote:

On 8/2/2015 9:16 AM, Jim Thompson wrote:
I think it's time I upgraded my 'Spice' machine... my present machine
is as follows... no laughter please... I've successfully done at least
at least 20 chip designs on this machine. What modern equivalent
should I replace it with?

[snip]

So, the trick is finding the right amount of "wait" -- too little and
you can't get started on something else; too much and you risk the
task taking too long for your schedule, etc.

In the 80's, I had a pair of 25MHz 386's. It would take a full 24 hours
to render some of my 3D CAD models. I'd turn off the monitor (save
power) and put a note on the keyboard: "Do not turn off" (lest I
forget in a moment of distraction). Then, move to the other machine
and keep working on mode models, or a schematic, or a layout, or some
software, or assembling a prototype, or ordering components, or office
supplies, etc. Always *something* that could be done in the time waiting
(without it feeling like you're "waiting")

Martin Riddle · Aug 3, 2015

On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 14:19:39 -0700, Rev. 11D Meow!
<rev.11d.meow@gmail.com> wrote:

you want the Intel Xeon E5-2699 v3 @ 2.30GHz
w/ 128GB 0.5CLK DDR5 Quad-Channel RAM for sure

and a bunch of SATA-4 drives to boot from

and that OS the Cray folks run these days...

$4,738.21 ?

Socket: LGA2011-v3, Clockspeed: 2.3 GHz, Turbo Speed: 3.6 GHz, No of
Cores: 18 (2 logical cores per physical), Max TDP: 145 W

Cheers

Tim Williams · Aug 3, 2015

"Jack" wrote in message news:1m8jrva.a8x8fg1pi1l3gN%pippo2@disney.com...

Xeon.
After them i7.
But verify if the sw you're using is OpenCL compliant, if yes, then go
get a good video card, because the sw can use the GPU for number
crunching.

Is there even *any* SPICE that's GPU-enabled, yet?

LTSpice is SMP, which is, sad to say: decades ahead of the curve.
Considering everyone else is stuck in 1981, or whenever it was XSPICE was
released. NI/Multisim, Altium, PSpice(?), take your pick... (NgSpice?)
They're all based on that one (free, coincidentally!) SPICE core.

Short of it is, more than two CPU cores (or a fancy GPU, beyond good 2D
and good enough 3D performance) doesn't buy you much in EDA these days.

Kind of a bizarre inversion, historically speaking: EDA and CAD used to be
the prime driver behind top-of-the-line workstations. 'Course, they cost
$100k back then, too. It's been my experience that the mid-level software
companies (~$10k/license and down) have been strangely resistant to any
kind of advancement or refinement of this sort.

Tim

--
Seven Transistor Labs, LLC
Electrical Engineering Consultation and Contract Design
Website: http://seventransistorlabs.com

Martin Riddle · Aug 3, 2015

On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 16:36:19 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, 2 August 2015 22:24:39 UTC+1, dca...@krl.org wrote:
On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 3:59:57 PM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

The CDs are probably kackered now.

CD's are not a very reliable archival tool. You might look at updating your optical drive to a 25 gigabyte M disc drive.

http://www.mdisc.com/faq/

warning , I have not used a mdisc. And the media does not seem to be in stores.

I can't think of any use for one, and that sounds like a good reason to avoid them.

NT

Photo archive. And the dreaded vacation movies.

Cheers

Jim Thompson · Aug 3, 2015

On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 20:15:44 -0400, Martin Riddle
<martin_ridd@verizon.net> wrote:

On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 16:36:19 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Sunday, 2 August 2015 22:24:39 UTC+1, dca...@krl.org wrote:
On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 3:59:57 PM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

The CDs are probably kackered now.

CD's are not a very reliable archival tool. You might look at updating your optical drive to a 25 gigabyte M disc drive.

http://www.mdisc.com/faq/

warning , I have not used a mdisc. And the media does not seem to be in stores.

I can't think of any use for one, and that sounds like a good reason to avoid them.

NT

Photo archive. And the dreaded vacation movies.

Cheers

Don Y · Aug 3, 2015

On 8/2/2015 4:02 PM, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 11:18:17 -0700, Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> wrote:

So, the trick is finding the right amount of "wait" -- too little and
you can't get started on something else; too much and you risk the
task taking too long for your schedule, etc.

In the 80's, I had a pair of 25MHz 386's. It would take a full 24 hours
to render some of my 3D CAD models. I'd turn off the monitor (save
power) and put a note on the keyboard: "Do not turn off" (lest I
forget in a moment of distraction). Then, move to the other machine
and keep working on mode models, or a schematic, or a layout, or some
software, or assembling a prototype, or ordering components, or office
supplies, etc. Always *something* that could be done in the time waiting
(without it feeling like you're "waiting")

Just anticipating _very_ aged equipment croaking at an inopportune
moment.

I've always maintained a hot spare of every system I've used.
If something crashes, I can be up and running on another machine
within a matter of hours -- or less.

Hardware is cheap. And, if you work like I do (move on to something
else instead of waiting for a machine to finish), the "spare" just
facilitates that.

John Larkin · Aug 3, 2015

On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 11:18:17 -0700, Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> wrote:

On 8/2/2015 9:16 AM, Jim Thompson wrote:
I think it's time I upgraded my 'Spice' machine... my present machine
is as follows... no laughter please... I've successfully done at least
at least 20 chip designs on this machine. What modern equivalent
should I replace it with?

A lot of that depends on how you work. I have friends who are perpetually
upgrading -- trying to eek out the last epsilon of performance, never
considering the time spent in the upgrade process (reinstallling software
and then reconfiguring it for the various "options"/preferences you had);
nor the "losses" that come with it (e.g., peripherals and applications that
no longer work).

But, if you look at their work process, they sit and *watch* their
machine, waiting for it to cough up a result. So, in their minds,
every increase in performance (if not counteracted by inefficiencies in
software "upgrades") is a net improvement.

OTOH, I prefer to wait a bit for each action I expect from my machines.
This gives me time to reorganize my thoughts: what will I do *when*
the machine is finished? what is my next priority? how will I verify
that the machine has done what I expected of it? etc.

Likewise, if the time involved is "more than a cup of tea", I can move
to another machine (or chore) and make some progress there. No need
to sit and wait for a machine to do the job it *will* perform.

So, the trick is finding the right amount of "wait" -- too little and
you can't get started on something else; too much and you risk the
task taking too long for your schedule, etc.

I got a new PC on Friday, and I'm going through the awful process of
installing all my existing apps and settings and projects and desktop
stuff. Old HP XP, new monster Win7 Dell with 4x the ram, 30x the disk,
gobs of horsepower. Such a trauma is worth it every 3 years or so,
certainly not much more often.

In the 80's, I had a pair of 25MHz 386's. It would take a full 24 hours
to render some of my 3D CAD models. I'd turn off the monitor (save
power) and put a note on the keyboard: "Do not turn off" (lest I
forget in a moment of distraction). Then, move to the other machine
and keep working on mode models, or a schematic, or a layout, or some
software, or assembling a prototype, or ordering components, or office
supplies, etc. Always *something* that could be done in the time waiting
(without it feeling like you're "waiting")

I occasionally run a Spice sim on the old 5-year-old HP that take many
minutes per run, so design iterations are slow. That's about the
slowest thing I do, and most circuit sims take a second or two. I can
spin a SolidWorks 3D model essentially instantly. Doing a design rules
check on a big PC board might take 10 seconds, so I don't often need
more compute power. Webbing is connection speed limited.

Why does Microsoft keep changing the way Windows works, for no
apparent reason? Most annoying.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
lunatic fringe electronics

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

John Larkin · Aug 3, 2015

On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 14:24:32 -0700 (PDT), "dcaster@krl.org"
<dcaster@krl.org> wrote:

On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 3:59:57 PM UTC-4, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

The CDs are probably kackered now.

NT

CD's are not a very reliable archival tool. You might look at updating your optical drive to a 25 gigabyte M disc drive.

http://www.mdisc.com/faq/

warning , I have not used a mdisc. And the media does not seem to be in stores.

Dan

We backup design releases to CDs, which I store in the cave at home.
Some are 10 years old, and I occasionally have to retrieve one. So
far, it has always worked.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
lunatic fringe electronics

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

Spehro Pefhany · Aug 3, 2015

On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 13:52:29 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

OK. Thanks!

...Jim Thompson

Presumably you're updating the O/S to at least Win7 64 Pro, so you may
lose some peripherals along the way where the drivers were never
updated or don't work all that well. Scanners in particular don't seem
to survive.

--sp

--
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
Amazon link for AoE 3rd Edition: http://tinyurl.com/ntrpwu8
Microchip link for 2015 Masters in Phoenix: http://tinyurl.com/l7g2k48

Jim Thompson · Aug 3, 2015

On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 21:07:44 -0400, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 13:52:29 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

OK. Thanks!

...Jim Thompson

Presumably you're updating the O/S to at least Win7 64 Pro, so you may
lose some peripherals along the way where the drivers were never
updated or don't work all that well. Scanners in particular don't seem
to survive.

--sp

whit3rd · Aug 3, 2015

On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 9:37:51 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:

On 8/2/2015 5:46 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 11:18:17 -0700, Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> wrote:

On 8/2/2015 9:16 AM, Jim Thompson wrote:

I got a new PC on Friday, and I'm going through the awful process of
installing all my existing apps and settings and projects and desktop
stuff. Old HP XP, new monster Win7..

For a "trivial (windows) machine" (e.g., something that just does word
processing, web browsing, email, etc.) it usually takes me the better
part of three days to get a new machine set up and configured.

It's easier with a Macintosh. Just boot the old machine holding down the 'T' key
and it becomes a Firewire external drive. Link Firewire from old machine to new,
and on the new one, run the Applications/Utilities/Migration Assistant. Except for a game or two
(which give 'reinstall from original media' messages), it just works. Doesn't
Windows have a similar utility?

Jeff Liebermann · Aug 3, 2015

On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 17:46:29 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

Why does Microsoft keep changing the way Windows works, for no
apparent reason? Most annoying.

To give the illusion of progress and improvement. If they left the
user interface the same, users will think it really is the same and
refuse to pay for upgrades. Users will pay for new features and
functions, but balk at paying for bug fixes and cleanup. So, any new
upgrades that cost money must look and work different in order to
sell.

Microsoft has apparently recognized the problem and will soon offer a
solution. Instead of being a user, you will soon be a subscriber to
the MS dollars for updates service. Instead of paying a lump sum for
the OS with the machine, you will pay a regular service charge for the
honor of using Windoze, much like Office 365. Updates will be
"pushed" directly to your machine whenever MS feels the need and
without your consent. The good news is that there will no longer be
any need for MS to sell bug fixes and tweaks disguised as progress and
improvements. It's therefore possible that the annoying user
interface changes and "Dungeons and Dragons" program location moves
may be at an end.

If you don't like the Win 8.1 user interface, I suggest you look at
Classic Shell:
<http://www.classicshell.net>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann · Aug 3, 2015

On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 18:17:27 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

The hp 3970 scanner is as old as the hills... but it is USB... who
knows?

Have you considered opening a computer museum?

HP Scanner driver and software support for Windows 8 and Windows 8.1
<http://h20564.www2.hp.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c03408379>
Nope... not listed as supported.

HP Scanjet - Scanners not supported in Windows 8 or Windows 8.1
<http://h20564.www2.hp.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docLocale=en_US&docId=emr_na-c03477149>
Yep... officially listed as not supported.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann · Aug 3, 2015

On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 17:29:32 -0700, Jim Thompson
<To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote:

I've suffered many a bruised rib courtesy of the wife's elbow... I'm
the master at falling asleep instantly on the in-laws' vacation movies
;-)
...Jim Thompson

Some friends just returned from a month in Spain walking the Camino de
Santiago. They brought back the usual mix of movies, stills, and
souveniers. In order for me to get a free dinner, I expected to be
tortured by a narrated account of the walk in excruciating detail.
Instead, all the dinner guests were presented with a free 4GB flash
drive crammed full of pictures, movies, sounds, and scans, and were
invited to take them home to view them. Included on the flash drive
were some Mac and PC slide show and movie viewing software. There was
also an LED projection display available to help with the after
dinner discussions. I was impressed as were the other guests. You
might suggest this method to the in-laws.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Don Y · Aug 3, 2015

On 8/2/2015 10:21 PM, whit3rd wrote:

On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 9:37:51 PM UTC-7, Don Y wrote:
On 8/2/2015 5:46 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 11:18:17 -0700, Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> wrote:

On 8/2/2015 9:16 AM, Jim Thompson wrote:

I got a new PC on Friday, and I'm going through the awful process of
installing all my existing apps and settings and projects and desktop
stuff. Old HP XP, new monster Win7..

For a "trivial (windows) machine" (e.g., something that just does word
processing, web browsing, email, etc.) it usually takes me the better
part of three days to get a new machine set up and configured.

It's easier with a Macintosh. Just boot the old machine holding down the 'T' key
and it becomes a Firewire external drive. Link Firewire from old machine to new,
and on the new one, run the Applications/Utilities/Migration Assistant. Except for a game or two
(which give 'reinstall from original media' messages), it just works. Doesn't
Windows have a similar utility?

You're unlikely to have anywhere near the same hardware complement
on Windows Machine A and Windows Machine B. And, much Windows
software is licensed to the machine on which it was initially installed
(CPU S/N, disk drive S/N, MAC address, etc. -- all things that don't
port to a new machine).

And, that still doesn't address the "I've got new hardware, do I want to
keep running with old versions of this software?"

By far, the easiest machines for me to update are my *BSD boxes -- pull
drive, install in new machine. Done.

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUn · Aug 3, 2015

On Sun, 2 Aug 2015 19:05:15 -0700 (PDT), "dcaster@krl.org"
<dcaster@krl.org> Gave us:

On Sunday, August 2, 2015 at 8:48:42 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

We backup design releases to CDs, which I store in the cave at home.
Some are 10 years old, and I occasionally have to retrieve one. So
far, it has always worked.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
lunatic fringe electronics

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

I have had CD's that were no longer 100 % readable.

Dan

Hard drives are cheap. Get an mSATA drive and USB drive enclosure and
every design directory you ever had can be fully backed up onto a device
which reads as fast as your HD subsystems do and will for a long time to
come.

Easy greasy Slap-it-in-and-go-soeasy.

Don Y · Aug 3, 2015

On 8/2/2015 5:46 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 02 Aug 2015 11:18:17 -0700, Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> wrote:

On 8/2/2015 9:16 AM, Jim Thompson wrote:

So, the trick is finding the right amount of "wait" -- too little and
you can't get started on something else; too much and you risk the
task taking too long for your schedule, etc.

I got a new PC on Friday, and I'm going through the awful process of
installing all my existing apps and settings and projects and desktop
stuff. Old HP XP, new monster Win7 Dell with 4x the ram, 30x the disk,
gobs of horsepower. Such a trauma is worth it every 3 years or so,
certainly not much more often.

For a "trivial (windows) machine" (e.g., something that just does word
processing, web browsing, email, etc.) it usually takes me the better
part of three days to get a new machine set up and configured. Rarely
do you just reinstall all the same (old) apps: "Hmmm.... should I
upgrade Firefox? And, what about the tool that I use to view ISO's?
And what's the latest set of Adobe Reader bugs? ..."

My *work* machines take *weeks* to set up! Invariably, something
that used to work doesn't any longer. So, time spent (wasted)
researching the "why" behind it. Then, deciding if I should
"live without" that thing -- or, *risk* upgrading it and hope
it doesn't break anything else in the process...

I firmly believe in living with a known set of problems and
capabilities instead of seeking out a whole new set! Most of
the time, the machine is sitting in a tight loop waiting for
me to decide which *key* I'm going to press...

I sure as hell don't need to install "updates" every week and
wonder what won't work thereafter -- and *when* I will
discover the problem! (most updates are security related;
keep machine off the internet and all those problems go away!)

In the 80's, I had a pair of 25MHz 386's. It would take a full 24 hours
to render some of my 3D CAD models. I'd turn off the monitor (save
power) and put a note on the keyboard: "Do not turn off" (lest I
forget in a moment of distraction). Then, move to the other machine
and keep working on mode models, or a schematic, or a layout, or some
software, or assembling a prototype, or ordering components, or office
supplies, etc. Always *something* that could be done in the time waiting
(without it feeling like you're "waiting")

I occasionally run a Spice sim on the old 5-year-old HP that take many
minutes per run, so design iterations are slow. That's about the
slowest thing I do, and most circuit sims take a second or two. I can
spin a SolidWorks 3D model essentially instantly. Doing a design rules

Spinning a model is simple. Photorealistically *rendering* it from
a wireframe eats cycles. (I have models of things where you can actually
see the detail of the "legs" of components/DIPs in the final model)

check on a big PC board might take 10 seconds, so I don't often need
more compute power. Webbing is connection speed limited.

Why does Microsoft keep changing the way Windows works, for no
apparent reason? Most annoying.

Why "new coke"? Why "new and improved" ANYTHING? Esp when the
"improvement" rarely *is*!

If Windows Y was the same as Windows X, who would buy Y?

What I found most amusing is reading the numerous papers MSweenies
publish touting the rationale behind all of their decisions -- esp
user interface decisions! Then, reading the counterparts to those
papers at the NEXT release... wherein they have an entirely different
rationale for an entirely different user interface dogma! :-/

Time to Upgrade ?:-}

Rev. 11D Meow!

Guest

Martin Brown

Guest

dcaster@krl.org

Guest

Jim Thompson

Guest

Martin Riddle

Guest

Tim Williams

Guest

Martin Riddle

Guest

Jim Thompson

Guest

Don Y

Guest

John Larkin

Guest

John Larkin

Guest

Spehro Pefhany

Guest

Jim Thompson

Guest

whit3rd

Guest

Jeff Liebermann

Guest

Jeff Liebermann

Guest

Jeff Liebermann

Guest

Don Y

Guest

DecadentLinuxUserNumeroUn

Guest

Don Y

Guest

Log in

Welcome to EDABoard.com

Sponsor