Tesla is fast...

E

Ed Lee

Guest
On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 9:38:46 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 12:58:47 PM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 7:34:43 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 02:46:24 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 15:42:36 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
Why are they needed? What problem are you trying to solve?
The problem frequently in the news where people\'s houses catch fire due to a fault in a charger/torch/etc. Nickel batteries get very hot, Lithium ones explode in a fireball, setting everything around it alight. Liquid lithium at a few thousand degrees was once fired through someone\'s hands while typing on a laptop.

I seriously doubt there was any liquid lithium ejected from the burning battery. The lithium does not exist separately it is bound in the electrodes and there is less than a gram per 18650 cell.
Something hot and liquid came out.
The electrolyte is highly flammable and liquid or a paste that could cause burns.
Could have been it, the point is people get burnt and surrounding things catch fire. I\'ve even seen a video of someone falling down some concrete stairs outdoors in an icy winter, with his mobile phone in his back pocket, which erupted. These batteries are a piece of shit.
Do you think this feature is free?
The cost only adds 10% to the battery approximately.
I doubt it.

https://www.sanwulasers.com/product/18650

Unprotected: $15
Protected: $25
The difference in retail price hasn\'t got much to do with the cost of the extra hardware, and everything to do with what the customer will pay for it.

Of course nobody is paying $15 per cell, or it would cost $100,000 for each Tesla. I would think that Tesla\'s cost of production is around $5 and protection circuit would be more like 30% to 40% in addition cost.
 
C

Commander Kinsey

Guest
On Thu, 12 May 2022 07:32:34 +0100, Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 9:38:46 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 12:58:47 PM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 7:34:43 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 02:46:24 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 15:42:36 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
Why are they needed? What problem are you trying to solve?
The problem frequently in the news where people\'s houses catch fire due to a fault in a charger/torch/etc. Nickel batteries get very hot, Lithium ones explode in a fireball, setting everything around it alight. Liquid lithium at a few thousand degrees was once fired through someone\'s hands while typing on a laptop.

I seriously doubt there was any liquid lithium ejected from the burning battery. The lithium does not exist separately it is bound in the electrodes and there is less than a gram per 18650 cell.
Something hot and liquid came out.
The electrolyte is highly flammable and liquid or a paste that could cause burns.
Could have been it, the point is people get burnt and surrounding things catch fire. I\'ve even seen a video of someone falling down some concrete stairs outdoors in an icy winter, with his mobile phone in his back pocket, which erupted. These batteries are a piece of shit.
Do you think this feature is free?
The cost only adds 10% to the battery approximately.
I doubt it.

https://www.sanwulasers.com/product/18650

Unprotected: $15
Protected: $25
The difference in retail price hasn\'t got much to do with the cost of the extra hardware, and everything to do with what the customer will pay for it.

Of course nobody is paying $15 per cell, or it would cost $100,000 for each Tesla. I would think that Tesla\'s cost of production is around $5 and protection circuit would be more like 30% to 40% in addition cost.

Unless it magically gets cheaper, Lithium batteries are not economically viable for a car. You either have shit range, or the car costs triple what a petrol one would.
 
A

Anthony William Sloman

Guest
On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:38:18 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 07:32:34 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 9:38:46 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 12:58:47 PM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 7:34:43 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 02:46:24 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 15:42:36 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
Why are they needed? What problem are you trying to solve?
The problem frequently in the news where people\'s houses catch fire due to a fault in a charger/torch/etc. Nickel batteries get very hot, Lithium ones explode in a fireball, setting everything around it alight. Liquid lithium at a few thousand degrees was once fired through someone\'s hands while typing on a laptop.

I seriously doubt there was any liquid lithium ejected from the burning battery. The lithium does not exist separately it is bound in the electrodes and there is less than a gram per 18650 cell.
Something hot and liquid came out.
The electrolyte is highly flammable and liquid or a paste that could cause burns.
Could have been it, the point is people get burnt and surrounding things catch fire. I\'ve even seen a video of someone falling down some concrete stairs outdoors in an icy winter, with his mobile phone in his back pocket, which erupted. These batteries are a piece of shit.
Do you think this feature is free?
The cost only adds 10% to the battery approximately.
I doubt it.

https://www.sanwulasers.com/product/18650

Unprotected: $15
Protected: $25
The difference in retail price hasn\'t got much to do with the cost of the extra hardware, and everything to do with what the customer will pay for it.

Of course nobody is paying $15 per cell, or it would cost $100,000 for each Tesla. I would think that Tesla\'s cost of production is around $5 and protection circuit would be more like 30% to 40% in addition cost.

Unless it magically gets cheaper, Lithium batteries are not economically viable for a car. You either have shit range, or the car costs triple what a petrol one would.

There\'s nothing magic about economies of scale. The rule of thumb is that manufacturing in ten times the volume halves the price. It has worked a couple of times now for solar cells.

In 2020 electric cars were 4% of car sales. Get that close to 100% and they would cost about the same a petrol car (even if your factor of three were right, which seems improbable). They also happen to be cheaper to run. The \"shit range\" claim is nonsense. It may be that one of the economies of scale may involve developing a better battery (which does seem to be a popular sport at the moment), but my long distance driving regime involves taking a break every two hour or so and having a cup of coffee while the car recharged would fit that perfectly.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
K

ke...@kjwdesigns.com

Guest
On Thursday, 12 May 2022 at 08:38:18 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 07:32:34 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 9:38:46 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 12:58:47 PM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 7:34:43 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 02:46:24 +0100,...> wrote:

On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 15:42:36 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
Why are they needed? What problem are you trying to solve?
The problem frequently in the news where people\'s houses catch fire due to a fault in a charger/torch/etc. Nickel batteries get very hot, Lithium ones explode in a fireball, setting everything around it alight. Liquid lithium at a few thousand degrees was once fired through someone\'s hands while typing on a laptop.

I seriously doubt there was any liquid lithium ejected from the burning battery. The lithium does not exist separately it is bound in the electrodes and there is less than a gram per 18650 cell.
Something hot and liquid came out.
The electrolyte is highly flammable and liquid or a paste that could cause burns.
Could have been it, the point is people get burnt and surrounding things catch fire. I\'ve even seen a video of someone falling down some concrete stairs outdoors in an icy winter, with his mobile phone in his back pocket, which erupted. These batteries are a piece of shit.
Do you think this feature is free?
The cost only adds 10% to the battery approximately.
I doubt it.

https://www.sanwulasers.com/product/18650

Unprotected: $15
Protected: $25
The difference in retail price hasn\'t got much to do with the cost of the extra hardware, and everything to do with what the customer will pay for it.

Of course nobody is paying $15 per cell, or it would cost $100,000 for each Tesla. I would think that Tesla\'s cost of production is around $5 and protection circuit would be more like 30% to 40% in addition cost.
Unless it magically gets cheaper, Lithium batteries are not economically viable for a car. You either have shit range, or the car costs triple what a petrol one would.

For some of portions of the car market the price is already competitive and the other features are similar or better. For example the Tesla Model 3 vs a BMW 3 series - https://www.motor1.com/reviews/378302/bmw-3-series-tesla-model-3-comparison/.

Range is just not an issue for most drivers although it does take a different mindset from the traditional don\'t fill up until empty approach of conventional vehicles.

When the fuel cost is included electric cars competitive on price even with average cars like a Toyota Camry. The average new car cost in the US has risen to about $47,000. The cost of a base Tesla Model 3 is $46,990.

The absence of regular servicing is very convenient - I have had mine for just about 4 years and it hasn\'t been to the dealer once. Whereas my Prius has required 8 services in that time according to the manual.

The cost and energy requirement to manufacture the batteries continues to drop - it is below $100 per kWh now from many times that ten years ago.

kw
 
E

Ed Lee

Guest
On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 7:18:45 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
> The cost and energy requirement to manufacture the batteries continues to drop - it is below $100 per kWh now from many times that ten years ago.

I don\'t think the Tesla (50kWh) battery cost below $5000.
 
C

Commander Kinsey

Guest
On Sat, 14 May 2022 03:43:47 +0100, Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 7:18:45 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
The cost and energy requirement to manufacture the batteries continues to drop - it is below $100 per kWh now from many times that ten years ago.

I don\'t think the Tesla (50kWh) battery cost below $5000.

Nothing made by Tesla is a sensible price, I\'m sure Musk is related to Jobs. It\'s the same Apple tactics.
 
F

Flyguy

Guest
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 8:28:27 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:38:18 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 07:32:34 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 9:38:46 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 12:58:47 PM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 7:34:43 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 02:46:24 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 15:42:36 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
Why are they needed? What problem are you trying to solve?
The problem frequently in the news where people\'s houses catch fire due to a fault in a charger/torch/etc. Nickel batteries get very hot, Lithium ones explode in a fireball, setting everything around it alight. Liquid lithium at a few thousand degrees was once fired through someone\'s hands while typing on a laptop.

I seriously doubt there was any liquid lithium ejected from the burning battery. The lithium does not exist separately it is bound in the electrodes and there is less than a gram per 18650 cell.
Something hot and liquid came out.
The electrolyte is highly flammable and liquid or a paste that could cause burns.
Could have been it, the point is people get burnt and surrounding things catch fire. I\'ve even seen a video of someone falling down some concrete stairs outdoors in an icy winter, with his mobile phone in his back pocket, which erupted. These batteries are a piece of shit.
Do you think this feature is free?
The cost only adds 10% to the battery approximately.
I doubt it.

https://www.sanwulasers.com/product/18650

Unprotected: $15
Protected: $25
The difference in retail price hasn\'t got much to do with the cost of the extra hardware, and everything to do with what the customer will pay for it.

Of course nobody is paying $15 per cell, or it would cost $100,000 for each Tesla. I would think that Tesla\'s cost of production is around $5 and protection circuit would be more like 30% to 40% in addition cost.

Unless it magically gets cheaper, Lithium batteries are not economically viable for a car. You either have shit range, or the car costs triple what a petrol one would.
There\'s nothing magic about economies of scale. The rule of thumb is that manufacturing in ten times the volume halves the price. It has worked a couple of times now for solar cells.

In 2020 electric cars were 4% of car sales. Get that close to 100% and they would cost about the same a petrol car (even if your factor of three were right, which seems improbable). They also happen to be cheaper to run. The \"shit range\" claim is nonsense. It may be that one of the economies of scale may involve developing a better battery (which does seem to be a popular sport at the moment), but my long distance driving regime involves taking a break every two hour or so and having a cup of coffee while the car recharged would fit that perfectly.

--
SNIPPERMAN, Sydney

Sorry, SNIPPERMAN, but you are not considering simple supply and demand economics; the price of lithium has skyrocketed with the large increase in demand:
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium
And lithium mining is very environmentally unfriendly - when the tree huggers find this out their love affair with electric cars will wain. And, then, there is the issue of WHERE does the electricity come from? Much of it is by burning coal.
 
C

Commander Kinsey

Guest
On Sat, 14 May 2022 04:43:37 +0100, Flyguy <soar2morrow@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 8:28:27 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:38:18 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 07:32:34 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 9:38:46 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 12:58:47 PM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:
Unprotected: $15
Protected: $25
The difference in retail price hasn\'t got much to do with the cost of the extra hardware, and everything to do with what the customer will pay for it.

Of course nobody is paying $15 per cell, or it would cost $100,000 for each Tesla. I would think that Tesla\'s cost of production is around $5 and protection circuit would be more like 30% to 40% in addition cost.

Unless it magically gets cheaper, Lithium batteries are not economically viable for a car. You either have shit range, or the car costs triple what a petrol one would.
There\'s nothing magic about economies of scale. The rule of thumb is that manufacturing in ten times the volume halves the price. It has worked a couple of times now for solar cells.

In 2020 electric cars were 4% of car sales. Get that close to 100% and they would cost about the same a petrol car (even if your factor of three were right, which seems improbable). They also happen to be cheaper to run. The \"shit range\" claim is nonsense. It may be that one of the economies of scale may involve developing a better battery (which does seem to be a popular sport at the moment), but my long distance driving regime involves taking a break every two hour or so and having a cup of coffee while the car recharged would fit that perfectly.

--
SNIPPERMAN, Sydney

Sorry, SNIPPERMAN, but you are not considering simple supply and demand economics; the price of lithium has skyrocketed with the large increase in demand:
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium
And lithium mining is very environmentally unfriendly - when the tree huggers find this out their love affair with electric cars will wain. And, then, there is the issue of WHERE does the electricity come from? Much of it is by burning coal.

All of it actually. Since all the \"green\" juice is already being used, additional usage from more cars wil come from burning coal/oil/gas faster. So no change to the environment, apart from Lithium problems. So actually worse for the environment. Electric golf carts yes, electric cars don\'t be daft. Batteries are for phones and cordless drills and are wholly unsuitable for something that uses 100kW.
 
R

rbowman

Guest
On 05/13/2022 09:43 PM, Flyguy wrote:
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 8:28:27 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:38:18 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 07:32:34 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 9:38:46 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 12:58:47 PM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 7:34:43 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 02:46:24 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 15:42:36 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
Why are they needed? What problem are you trying to solve?
The problem frequently in the news where people\'s houses catch fire due to a fault in a charger/torch/etc. Nickel batteries get very hot, Lithium ones explode in a fireball, setting everything around it alight. Liquid lithium at a few thousand degrees was once fired through someone\'s hands while typing on a laptop.

I seriously doubt there was any liquid lithium ejected from the burning battery. The lithium does not exist separately it is bound in the electrodes and there is less than a gram per 18650 cell.
Something hot and liquid came out.
The electrolyte is highly flammable and liquid or a paste that could cause burns.
Could have been it, the point is people get burnt and surrounding things catch fire. I\'ve even seen a video of someone falling down some concrete stairs outdoors in an icy winter, with his mobile phone in his back pocket, which erupted. These batteries are a piece of shit.
Do you think this feature is free?
The cost only adds 10% to the battery approximately.
I doubt it.

https://www.sanwulasers.com/product/18650

Unprotected: $15
Protected: $25
The difference in retail price hasn\'t got much to do with the cost of the extra hardware, and everything to do with what the customer will pay for it.

Of course nobody is paying $15 per cell, or it would cost $100,000 for each Tesla. I would think that Tesla\'s cost of production is around $5 and protection circuit would be more like 30% to 40% in addition cost.

Unless it magically gets cheaper, Lithium batteries are not economically viable for a car. You either have shit range, or the car costs triple what a petrol one would.
There\'s nothing magic about economies of scale. The rule of thumb is that manufacturing in ten times the volume halves the price. It has worked a couple of times now for solar cells.

In 2020 electric cars were 4% of car sales. Get that close to 100% and they would cost about the same a petrol car (even if your factor of three were right, which seems improbable). They also happen to be cheaper to run. The \"shit range\" claim is nonsense. It may be that one of the economies of scale may involve developing a better battery (which does seem to be a popular sport at the moment), but my long distance driving regime involves taking a break every two hour or so and having a cup of coffee while the car recharged would fit that perfectly.

--
SNIPPERMAN, Sydney

Sorry, SNIPPERMAN, but you are not considering simple supply and demand economics; the price of lithium has skyrocketed with the large increase in demand:
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium
And lithium mining is very environmentally unfriendly - when the tree huggers find this out their love affair with electric cars will wain. And, then, there is the issue of WHERE does the electricity come from? Much of it is by burning coal.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/17/politics/lithium-mining-energy-climate/index.html

There aren\'t many trees to hug in Thacker Pass but the war has begun.
 
A

Anthony William Sloman

Guest
On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 12:36:15 PM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2022 03:18:40 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Thursday, 12 May 2022 at 08:38:18 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 07:32:34 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 9:38:46 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 12:58:47 PM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 7:34:43 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 02:46:24 +0100,...> wrote:

On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 15:42:36 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
Why are they needed? What problem are you trying to solve?
The problem frequently in the news where people\'s houses catch fire due to a fault in a charger/torch/etc. Nickel batteries get very hot, Lithium ones explode in a fireball, setting everything around it alight. Liquid lithium at a few thousand degrees was once fired through someone\'s hands while typing on a laptop.

I seriously doubt there was any liquid lithium ejected from the burning battery. The lithium does not exist separately it is bound in the electrodes and there is less than a gram per 18650 cell.
Something hot and liquid came out.
The electrolyte is highly flammable and liquid or a paste that could cause burns.
Could have been it, the point is people get burnt and surrounding things catch fire. I\'ve even seen a video of someone falling down some concrete stairs outdoors in an icy winter, with his mobile phone in his back pocket, which erupted. These batteries are a piece of shit.
Do you think this feature is free?
The cost only adds 10% to the battery approximately.
I doubt it.

https://www.sanwulasers.com/product/18650

Unprotected: $15
Protected: $25
The difference in retail price hasn\'t got much to do with the cost of the extra hardware, and everything to do with what the customer will pay for it.

Of course nobody is paying $15 per cell, or it would cost $100,000 for each Tesla. I would think that Tesla\'s cost of production is around $5 and protection circuit would be more like 30% to 40% in addition cost.
Unless it magically gets cheaper, Lithium batteries are not economically viable for a car. You either have shit range, or the car costs triple what a petrol one would.

For some of portions of the car market the price is already competitive and the other features are similar or better. For example the Tesla Model 3 vs a BMW 3 series - https://www.motor1.com/reviews/378302/bmw-3-series-tesla-model-3-comparison/.
A BMW is not a sensible car.

Neither is a Tesla.

> Now please look at cars that cost what they\'re worth. The cheapest petrol car brand new and the cheapest electric car brand new that go a decent mileage (a few hundred miles), are £6K and £25K. Electric is a nice idea, but it\'s nowhere near ready for the public to use.

Apples and pears.

> Lithium Ion is not suitable for such a massive amount of power storage.

It works just fine. You want to redefine \"suitable\" to mean \"agreeable with Commander Kinsey\'s prejudices\".

Range is just not an issue for most drivers although it does take a different mindset from the traditional don\'t fill up until empty approach of conventional vehicles.

It\'s a problem for every single driver. Most people do not drive 2 miles to the post office. By the way that range drops like a stone as the battery ages. My petrol tank doesn\'t age.

Electric care batteries are ageing a lot more slowly than they used to. Commander Kinsey is behind the game. as usual.

When the fuel cost is included electric cars competitive on price even with average cars like a Toyota Camry. The average new car cost in the US has risen to about $47,000. The cost of a base Tesla Model 3 is $46,990.

WTF are you doing paying $47K for a petrol car? I could buy 6 cars for that.

And would be silly enough to do it.

The absence of regular servicing is very convenient - I have had mine for just about 4 years and it hasn\'t been to the dealer once. Whereas my Prius has required 8 services in that time according to the manual.

Ignore the manual. Take the car to the garage when it goes wrong.

Commander Kinsey does take the ignorant half-wit approach to car maintenance.

The cost and energy requirement to manufacture the batteries continues to drop - it is below $100 per kWh now from many times that ten years ago.

Then I will wait another 10 years.

Probably not a wise choice, but Commander Kinsey clearly isn\'t wise.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
F

Flyguy

Guest
On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 9:02:49 PM UTC-7, rbowman wrote:
On 05/13/2022 09:43 PM, Flyguy wrote:
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 8:28:27 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:38:18 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 07:32:34 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 9:38:46 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 12:58:47 PM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 7:34:43 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 02:46:24 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 15:42:36 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
Why are they needed? What problem are you trying to solve?
The problem frequently in the news where people\'s houses catch fire due to a fault in a charger/torch/etc. Nickel batteries get very hot, Lithium ones explode in a fireball, setting everything around it alight. Liquid lithium at a few thousand degrees was once fired through someone\'s hands while typing on a laptop.

I seriously doubt there was any liquid lithium ejected from the burning battery. The lithium does not exist separately it is bound in the electrodes and there is less than a gram per 18650 cell.
Something hot and liquid came out.
The electrolyte is highly flammable and liquid or a paste that could cause burns.
Could have been it, the point is people get burnt and surrounding things catch fire. I\'ve even seen a video of someone falling down some concrete stairs outdoors in an icy winter, with his mobile phone in his back pocket, which erupted. These batteries are a piece of shit.
Do you think this feature is free?
The cost only adds 10% to the battery approximately.
I doubt it.

https://www.sanwulasers.com/product/18650

Unprotected: $15
Protected: $25
The difference in retail price hasn\'t got much to do with the cost of the extra hardware, and everything to do with what the customer will pay for it.

Of course nobody is paying $15 per cell, or it would cost $100,000 for each Tesla. I would think that Tesla\'s cost of production is around $5 and protection circuit would be more like 30% to 40% in addition cost.

Unless it magically gets cheaper, Lithium batteries are not economically viable for a car. You either have shit range, or the car costs triple what a petrol one would.
There\'s nothing magic about economies of scale. The rule of thumb is that manufacturing in ten times the volume halves the price. It has worked a couple of times now for solar cells.

In 2020 electric cars were 4% of car sales. Get that close to 100% and they would cost about the same a petrol car (even if your factor of three were right, which seems improbable). They also happen to be cheaper to run. The \"shit range\" claim is nonsense. It may be that one of the economies of scale may involve developing a better battery (which does seem to be a popular sport at the moment), but my long distance driving regime involves taking a break every two hour or so and having a cup of coffee while the car recharged would fit that perfectly.

--
SNIPPERMAN, Sydney

Sorry, SNIPPERMAN, but you are not considering simple supply and demand economics; the price of lithium has skyrocketed with the large increase in demand:
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium
And lithium mining is very environmentally unfriendly - when the tree huggers find this out their love affair with electric cars will wain. And, then, there is the issue of WHERE does the electricity come from? Much of it is by burning coal.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/17/politics/lithium-mining-energy-climate/index.html

There aren\'t many trees to hug in Thacker Pass but the war has begun.

The bottom line is that so-called Progressives are far TOO STUPID to think anything through.
 
A

Anthony William Sloman

Guest
On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 12:53:02 PM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2022 03:43:47 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 7:18:45 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
The cost and energy requirement to manufacture the batteries continues to drop - it is below $100 per kWh now from many times that ten years ago.

I don\'t think the Tesla (50kWh) battery cost below $5000.
Nothing made by Tesla is a sensible price, I\'m sure Musk is related to Jobs. It\'s the same Apple tactics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Excellence

went into that tactic. Back in 1982, IBM and Hewlett-Packard were the leading exponents. If you had a reputation of for quality you could sell your stuff for three times the cost of production, rather than twice the cost which was less reputable producers had to settle for.

These days Apple and Tesla are relying on their prestige to sell good products at an inflated price in the same way.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
A

Anthony William Sloman

Guest
On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 1:43:41 PM UTC+10, Flyguy wrote:
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 8:28:27 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:38:18 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 07:32:34 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 9:38:46 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 12:58:47 PM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 7:34:43 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 02:46:24 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke....@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 15:42:36 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
Why are they needed? What problem are you trying to solve?
The problem frequently in the news where people\'s houses catch fire due to a fault in a charger/torch/etc. Nickel batteries get very hot, Lithium ones explode in a fireball, setting everything around it alight.. Liquid lithium at a few thousand degrees was once fired through someone\'s hands while typing on a laptop.

I seriously doubt there was any liquid lithium ejected from the burning battery. The lithium does not exist separately it is bound in the electrodes and there is less than a gram per 18650 cell.
Something hot and liquid came out.
The electrolyte is highly flammable and liquid or a paste that could cause burns.
Could have been it, the point is people get burnt and surrounding things catch fire. I\'ve even seen a video of someone falling down some concrete stairs outdoors in an icy winter, with his mobile phone in his back pocket, which erupted. These batteries are a piece of shit.
Do you think this feature is free?
The cost only adds 10% to the battery approximately.
I doubt it.

https://www.sanwulasers.com/product/18650

Unprotected: $15
Protected: $25
The difference in retail price hasn\'t got much to do with the cost of the extra hardware, and everything to do with what the customer will pay for it.

Of course nobody is paying $15 per cell, or it would cost $100,000 for each Tesla. I would think that Tesla\'s cost of production is around $5 and protection circuit would be more like 30% to 40% in addition cost.

Unless it magically gets cheaper, Lithium batteries are not economically viable for a car. You either have shit range, or the car costs triple what a petrol one would.
There\'s nothing magic about economies of scale. The rule of thumb is that manufacturing in ten times the volume halves the price. It has worked a couple of times now for solar cells.

In 2020 electric cars were 4% of car sales. Get that close to 100% and they would cost about the same a petrol car (even if your factor of three were right, which seems improbable). They also happen to be cheaper to run. The \"shit range\" claim is nonsense. It may be that one of the economies of scale may involve developing a better battery (which does seem to be a popular sport at the moment), but my long distance driving regime involves taking a break every two hour or so and having a cup of coffee while the car recharged would fit that perfectly.

Sorry, Sloman, but you are not considering simple supply and demand economics; the price of lithium has skyrocketed with the large increase in demand:
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium

So people are starting new lithium mines all over. The mining pages of Australian newspapers are crawling with local lithium nine start-ups, sojme of them even in Australia. This is exactly how supply and demand economics works, even if you don\'t understand it.

> And lithium mining is very environmentally unfriendly - when the tree huggers find this out their love affair with electric cars will wane.

There are a variety of source of lithium. Mining is a pretty localised activity, and there are places where tree-huggers (not a huge proportion of the population anyway) are thin on the ground.

> And, then, there is the issue of WHERE does the electricity come from? Much of it is by burning coal.

But solar farms produce it more cheaply, and car batteries don\'t much care when the get recharged, so long as they are fully charged when they set out.. Car\'s spend 95% of their time parked, and as electric cars become even more popular you will be able to recharge them almost anywhere where you are allowed to park them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot,_Flat,_and_Crowded

made the point back in 2008, but your senile dementia will have been pretty advanced even back then, so you will have missed it.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
C

Commander Kinsey

Guest
On Sat, 14 May 2022 05:45:23 +0100, Flyguy <soar2morrow@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 9:02:49 PM UTC-7, rbowman wrote:
On 05/13/2022 09:43 PM, Flyguy wrote:
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 8:28:27 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:38:18 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 07:32:34 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

Of course nobody is paying $15 per cell, or it would cost $100,000 for each Tesla. I would think that Tesla\'s cost of production is around $5 and protection circuit would be more like 30% to 40% in addition cost.

Unless it magically gets cheaper, Lithium batteries are not economically viable for a car. You either have shit range, or the car costs triple what a petrol one would.
There\'s nothing magic about economies of scale. The rule of thumb is that manufacturing in ten times the volume halves the price. It has worked a couple of times now for solar cells.

In 2020 electric cars were 4% of car sales. Get that close to 100% and they would cost about the same a petrol car (even if your factor of three were right, which seems improbable). They also happen to be cheaper to run. The \"shit range\" claim is nonsense. It may be that one of the economies of scale may involve developing a better battery (which does seem to be a popular sport at the moment), but my long distance driving regime involves taking a break every two hour or so and having a cup of coffee while the car recharged would fit that perfectly.

--
SNIPPERMAN, Sydney

Sorry, SNIPPERMAN, but you are not considering simple supply and demand economics; the price of lithium has skyrocketed with the large increase in demand:
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium
And lithium mining is very environmentally unfriendly - when the tree huggers find this out their love affair with electric cars will wain. And, then, there is the issue of WHERE does the electricity come from? Much of it is by burning coal.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/17/politics/lithium-mining-energy-climate/index.html

There aren\'t many trees to hug in Thacker Pass but the war has begun.

The bottom line is that so-called Progressives are far TOO STUPID to think anything through.

Yip, it\'s called gut instinct, they behave like animals. They can\'t actually make sensible decisions.
 
A

Anthony William Sloman

Guest
On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 1:57:47 PM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2022 04:43:37 +0100, Flyguy <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 8:28:27 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:38:18 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 07:32:34 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 9:38:46 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 12:58:47 PM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:
Unprotected: $15
Protected: $25
The difference in retail price hasn\'t got much to do with the cost of the extra hardware, and everything to do with what the customer will pay for it.

Of course nobody is paying $15 per cell, or it would cost $100,000 for each Tesla. I would think that Tesla\'s cost of production is around $5 and protection circuit would be more like 30% to 40% in addition cost.

Unless it magically gets cheaper, Lithium batteries are not economically viable for a car. You either have shit range, or the car costs triple what a petrol one would.
There\'s nothing magic about economies of scale. The rule of thumb is that manufacturing in ten times the volume halves the price. It has worked a couple of times now for solar cells.

In 2020 electric cars were 4% of car sales. Get that close to 100% and they would cost about the same a petrol car (even if your factor of three were right, which seems improbable). They also happen to be cheaper to run. The \"shit range\" claim is nonsense. It may be that one of the economies of scale may involve developing a better battery (which does seem to be a popular sport at the moment), but my long distance driving regime involves taking a break every two hour or so and having a cup of coffee while the car recharged would fit that perfectly.

Sorry, Slomna but you are not considering simple supply and demand economics; the price of lithium has skyrocketed with the large increase in demand:
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium
And lithium mining is very environmentally unfriendly - when the tree huggers find this out their love affair with electric cars will wane.

It\'s Flyguy who doesn\'t understand supply and demand economics. The current rise in the price of lithium is motivating lots of people to start digging new lithium mines. The mining pages of Australian newspapers are full of start=ups doing just that.

And, then, there is the issue of WHERE does the electricity come from? Much of it is by burning coal.
All of it actually. Since all the \"green\" juice is already being used, additional usage from more cars wil come from burning coal/oil/gas faster. So no change to the environment, apart from Lithium problems. So actually worse for the environment. Electric golf carts yes, electric cars don\'t be daft. Batteries are for phones and cordless drills and are wholly unsuitable for something that uses 100kW.

Commander Kinsey hasn\'t notice how fast the electrical supply industry is switching to renewable sources, which happen to generate electricity more cheaply you can get it by burning coal. Electric car batteries are their ideal customer - they can charge the batteries when the sun is shining and the wind is blowing and power is particularly cheap. This was pointed out back in 2008, but not anywhere where Commander Kinsey would have noticed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot,_Flat,_and_Crowded

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
A

Anthony William Sloman

Guest
On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 3:10:45 PM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2022 05:45:23 +0100, Flyguy <soar2...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 9:02:49 PM UTC-7, rbowman wrote:
On 05/13/2022 09:43 PM, Flyguy wrote:
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 8:28:27 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 1:38:18 AM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 07:32:34 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

Of course nobody is paying $15 per cell, or it would cost $100,000 for each Tesla. I would think that Tesla\'s cost of production is around $5 and protection circuit would be more like 30% to 40% in addition cost.

Unless it magically gets cheaper, Lithium batteries are not economically viable for a car. You either have shit range, or the car costs triple what a petrol one would.
There\'s nothing magic about economies of scale. The rule of thumb is that manufacturing in ten times the volume halves the price. It has worked a couple of times now for solar cells.

In 2020 electric cars were 4% of car sales. Get that close to 100% and they would cost about the same a petrol car (even if your factor of three were right, which seems improbable). They also happen to be cheaper to run. The \"shit range\" claim is nonsense. It may be that one of the economies of scale may involve developing a better battery (which does seem to be a popular sport at the moment), but my long distance driving regime involves taking a break every two hour or so and having a cup of coffee while the car recharged would fit that perfectly.

Sorry, Sloman, but you are not considering simple supply and demand economics; the price of lithium has skyrocketed with the large increase in demand:
https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lithium
And lithium mining is very environmentally unfriendly - when the tree huggers find this out their love affair with electric cars will wane. And, then, there is the issue of WHERE does the electricity come from?

The simple economics which Flygug is ignoring here is motivating a lot of lithium mine start-ups.

> Much of it is by burning coal.

But progressively less of it. Solar cells and windmills both produce electricity more cheaply than you can get it by burning coal or gas.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/17/politics/lithium-mining-energy-climate/index.html

There aren\'t many trees to hug in Thacker Pass but the war has begun.

The bottom line is that so-called Progressives are far TOO STUPID to think anything through.

Granting what Flyguy and Commander Kinsey have posted here, they are aren\'t the only people with that problem.

Tree-huggers are a fairly extreme end of the \"progressive\" spectrum, and the ones that feature largely in climate change denial propaganda seem to be more invented than real.

> Yip, it\'s called gut instinct, they behave like animals. They can\'t actually make sensible decisions.

Since they pretty much only exist in climate change denial propaganda, the decisions that they are claimed to be making are those invented by the climate change denial propaganda machine for its own convenience. It you are going to invent strawmen, you do invent the strawmen who suit your argument, no matter how implausible their behavior would be in real life.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
R

rbowman

Guest
On 05/13/2022 11:31 PM, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
Granting what Flyguy and Commander Kinsey have posted here, they are aren\'t the only people with that problem.

Tree-huggers are a fairly extreme end of the \"progressive\" spectrum, and the ones that feature largely in climate change denial propaganda seem to be more invented than real.

https://deepgreenresistance.org/
https://www.penttilinkola.com/pentti_linkola/ecofascism/
https://fs.blog/intellectual-giants/garrett-hardin/

Real environmentalists aren\'t even on the progressive spectrum.
 
R

Ricky

Guest
On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 10:36:15 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2022 03:18:40 +0100, ke...@kjwdesigns.com <ke...@kjwdesigns.com> wrote:

On Thursday, 12 May 2022 at 08:38:18 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 07:32:34 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 9:38:46 PM UTC-7, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Thursday, May 12, 2022 at 12:58:47 PM UTC+10, Ed Lee wrote:
On Wednesday, May 11, 2022 at 7:34:43 PM UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 12 May 2022 02:46:24 +0100,...> wrote:

On Wednesday, 11 May 2022 at 15:42:36 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
...
Why are they needed? What problem are you trying to solve?
The problem frequently in the news where people\'s houses catch fire due to a fault in a charger/torch/etc. Nickel batteries get very hot, Lithium ones explode in a fireball, setting everything around it alight. Liquid lithium at a few thousand degrees was once fired through someone\'s hands while typing on a laptop.

I seriously doubt there was any liquid lithium ejected from the burning battery. The lithium does not exist separately it is bound in the electrodes and there is less than a gram per 18650 cell.
Something hot and liquid came out.
The electrolyte is highly flammable and liquid or a paste that could cause burns.
Could have been it, the point is people get burnt and surrounding things catch fire. I\'ve even seen a video of someone falling down some concrete stairs outdoors in an icy winter, with his mobile phone in his back pocket, which erupted. These batteries are a piece of shit.
Do you think this feature is free?
The cost only adds 10% to the battery approximately.
I doubt it.

https://www.sanwulasers.com/product/18650

Unprotected: $15
Protected: $25
The difference in retail price hasn\'t got much to do with the cost of the extra hardware, and everything to do with what the customer will pay for it.

Of course nobody is paying $15 per cell, or it would cost $100,000 for each Tesla. I would think that Tesla\'s cost of production is around $5 and protection circuit would be more like 30% to 40% in addition cost.
Unless it magically gets cheaper, Lithium batteries are not economically viable for a car. You either have shit range, or the car costs triple what a petrol one would.

For some of portions of the car market the price is already competitive and the other features are similar or better. For example the Tesla Model 3 vs a BMW 3 series - https://www.motor1.com/reviews/378302/bmw-3-series-tesla-model-3-comparison/.
A BMW is not a sensible car. Now please look at cars that cost what they\'re worth. The cheapest petrol car brand new and the cheapest electric car brand new that go a decent mileage (a few hundred miles), are £6K and £25K. Electric is a nice idea, but it\'s nowhere near ready for the public to use. Lithium Ion is not suitable for such a massive amount of power storage.

What is your \"sensible\" car at £6K? Does it have four wheels? Three? Two? There are electric cars at lower prices than £25K. You do have to be willing to look for them though. I expect that\'s not going to happen since it is you we are talking to.


Range is just not an issue for most drivers although it does take a different mindset from the traditional don\'t fill up until empty approach of conventional vehicles.
It\'s a problem for every single driver. Most people do not drive 2 miles to the post office. By the way that range drops like a stone as the battery ages. My petrol tank doesn\'t age.

This is the silly talk we typically get from this poster.


When the fuel cost is included electric cars competitive on price even with average cars like a Toyota Camry. The average new car cost in the US has risen to about $47,000. The cost of a base Tesla Model 3 is $46,990.
WTF are you doing paying $47K for a petrol car? I could buy 6 cars for that.
The absence of regular servicing is very convenient - I have had mine for just about 4 years and it hasn\'t been to the dealer once. Whereas my Prius has required 8 services in that time according to the manual.
Ignore the manual. Take the car to the garage when it goes wrong.
The cost and energy requirement to manufacture the batteries continues to drop - it is below $100 per kWh now from many times that ten years ago.
Then I will wait another 10 years.

No, you should wait another hundred years. I want to see your grip on the steering wheel fossilized.

It is hard to find a more ignorant person, even in this group.

--

Rick C.

--+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
R

Ricky

Guest
On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 12:50:26 AM UTC-4, bill....@ieee.org wrote:
On Saturday, May 14, 2022 at 12:53:02 PM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 14 May 2022 03:43:47 +0100, Ed Lee <edward....@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, May 13, 2022 at 7:18:45 PM UTC-7, ke...@kjwdesigns.com wrote:
The cost and energy requirement to manufacture the batteries continues to drop - it is below $100 per kWh now from many times that ten years ago.

I don\'t think the Tesla (50kWh) battery cost below $5000.
Nothing made by Tesla is a sensible price, I\'m sure Musk is related to Jobs. It\'s the same Apple tactics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Search_of_Excellence

went into that tactic. Back in 1982, IBM and Hewlett-Packard were the leading exponents. If you had a reputation of for quality you could sell your stuff for three times the cost of production, rather than twice the cost which was less reputable producers had to settle for.

These days Apple and Tesla are relying on their prestige to sell good products at an inflated price in the same way.

That\'s not so much what is happening, as much as it is simply optimizing for the market. In electronics there are always early adopters who can justify a more expensive unit. Tesla was selling a $35,000 car they made virtually no money on. Then they stopped selling that version. As the market heated up they stopped selling the next lower priced version. I think there was a third version they stopped selling.

It is a well known fact that there is more profit in the luxury cars sold at higher prices. This is what Tesla is doing, rather than simply raising prices to make more money. It only costs a bit more to add the various features, but these features bring a lot higher price.

--

Rick C.

--+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
K

ke...@kjwdesigns.com

Guest
On Friday, 13 May 2022 at 19:36:15 UTC-7, Commander Kinsey wrote:
....
> A BMW is not a sensible car. Now please look at cars that cost what they\'re worth. The cheapest petrol car brand new and the cheapest electric car brand new that go a decent mileage (a few hundred miles), are £6K and £25K. Electric is a nice idea, but it\'s nowhere near ready for the public to use. Lithium Ion is not suitable for such a massive amount of power storage.

According to this the cheapest car in the UK is about £11.5k.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/best-cars-vans/351901/top-10-cheapest-cars-sale-2022

A couple million people a year buy BMWs that you describe as \"not a sensible car\" so Im sure many would disagree with you.

Range is just not an issue for most drivers although it does take a different mindset from the traditional don\'t fill up until empty approach of conventional vehicles.
It\'s a problem for every single driver. Most people do not drive 2 miles to the post office. By the way that range drops like a stone as the battery ages. My petrol tank doesn\'t age.
When the fuel cost is included electric cars competitive on price even with average cars like a Toyota Camry. The average new car cost in the US has risen to about $47,000. The cost of a base Tesla Model 3 is $46,990.
WTF are you doing paying $47K for a petrol car? I could buy 6 cars for that.

You could not buy 6 new cars for $47k. And most people don\'t just buy the bare minimum car as can be seen from the average price. You also can\'t meaningfully compare radically dissimilar cars as much of the cost is not just in the propulsion system.

The absence of regular servicing is very convenient - I have had mine for just about 4 years and it hasn\'t been to the dealer once. Whereas my Prius has required 8 services in that time according to the manual.
Ignore the manual. Take the car to the garage when it goes wrong.

No oil changes? No brake checking. What about mandatory smog or MOT tests - do you ignore those as well?

The cost and energy requirement to manufacture the batteries continues to drop - it is below $100 per kWh now from many times that ten years ago.
Then I will wait another 10 years.
That\'s your privilege.

kw
 

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