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Talk about \"carbon footprints\"......

D

Don Y

Guest
<https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8609898/pdf/nihpp-2021.11.12.468428v1.pdf>

Christ, I gripe when a simulation, 3D rendering or animation takes
more than a day to build. Gotta wonder what sort of effort THAT
took!

(but, it\'s an entertaining use of ZFIPs!)
 
P

Phil Hobbs

Guest
Don Y wrote:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8609898/pdf/nihpp-2021.11.12.468428v1.pdf


Christ, I gripe when a simulation, 3D rendering or animation takes
more than a day to build.  Gotta wonder what sort of effort THAT
took!

(but, it\'s an entertaining use of ZFIPs!)
\"Computational microscopy\", eh? In the palmy days, you had to be
looking at some actual sample to be a microscopist.

O tempora, O mores. :(

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
S

server

Guest
On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:56:03 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid>
wrote:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8609898/pdf/nihpp-2021.11.12.468428v1.pdf

Christ, I gripe when a simulation, 3D rendering or animation takes
more than a day to build. Gotta wonder what sort of effort THAT
took!

(but, it\'s an entertaining use of ZFIPs!)
Pretty pictures, but do masks work?



--

Father Brown\'s figure remained quite dark and still;
but in that instant he had lost his head. His head was
always most valuable when he had lost it.
 
D

Dimiter_Popoff

Guest
On 12/3/2021 16:21, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:56:03 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
wrote:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8609898/pdf/nihpp-2021.11.12.468428v1.pdf

Christ, I gripe when a simulation, 3D rendering or animation takes
more than a day to build. Gotta wonder what sort of effort THAT
took!

(but, it\'s an entertaining use of ZFIPs!)

Pretty pictures, but do masks work?
What do you think, do they work. Why do *you* think surgeons wear
masks while operating.

I know you know how they work and that they *do* work, why are you
out to do tribal propaganda now?

BTW covid or not masks in closed public spaces are a good thing,
the rate of seasonal infections has dropped dramatically since they
were made mandatory.
Good hygiene is not a bad idea, you know.
 
S

server

Guest
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 17:46:56 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
wrote:

On 12/3/2021 16:21, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:56:03 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
wrote:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8609898/pdf/nihpp-2021.11.12.468428v1.pdf

Christ, I gripe when a simulation, 3D rendering or animation takes
more than a day to build. Gotta wonder what sort of effort THAT
took!

(but, it\'s an entertaining use of ZFIPs!)

Pretty pictures, but do masks work?




What do you think, do they work. Why do *you* think surgeons wear
masks while operating.
Theatre?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

\"However, overall there is a lack of substantial evidence to support
claims that facemasks protect either patient or surgeon from
infectious contamination.\"


I know you know how they work and that they *do* work, why are you
out to do tribal propaganda now?
I don\'t know that they work. They may make things worse.

BTW covid or not masks in closed public spaces are a good thing,
the rate of seasonal infections has dropped dramatically since they
were made mandatory.
Good hygiene is not a bad idea, you know.
--

Father Brown\'s figure remained quite dark and still;
but in that instant he had lost his head. His head was
always most valuable when he had lost it.
 
D

Dimiter_Popoff

Guest
On 12/3/2021 18:43, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 17:46:56 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com
wrote:

On 12/3/2021 16:21, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:56:03 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
wrote:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8609898/pdf/nihpp-2021.11.12.468428v1.pdf

Christ, I gripe when a simulation, 3D rendering or animation takes
more than a day to build. Gotta wonder what sort of effort THAT
took!

(but, it\'s an entertaining use of ZFIPs!)

Pretty pictures, but do masks work?




What do you think, do they work. Why do *you* think surgeons wear
masks while operating.

Theatre?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

\"However, overall there is a lack of substantial evidence to support
claims that facemasks protect either patient or surgeon from
infectious contamination.\"



I know you know how they work and that they *do* work, why are you
out to do tribal propaganda now?

I don\'t know that they work. They may make things worse.
So you don\'t know that reducing the amount of saliva you spread around
when talking by a factor of about 10 does protect other people
from the infections you are carrying.
Obviously you *do* know that, you manage a lot more complex
tasks in your work than what it takes to see this.
 
J

John Larkin

Guest
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 20:00:30 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
wrote:

On 12/3/2021 18:43, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 17:46:56 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com
wrote:

On 12/3/2021 16:21, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:56:03 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
wrote:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8609898/pdf/nihpp-2021.11.12.468428v1.pdf

Christ, I gripe when a simulation, 3D rendering or animation takes
more than a day to build. Gotta wonder what sort of effort THAT
took!

(but, it\'s an entertaining use of ZFIPs!)

Pretty pictures, but do masks work?




What do you think, do they work. Why do *you* think surgeons wear
masks while operating.

Theatre?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

\"However, overall there is a lack of substantial evidence to support
claims that facemasks protect either patient or surgeon from
infectious contamination.\"



I know you know how they work and that they *do* work, why are you
out to do tribal propaganda now?

I don\'t know that they work. They may make things worse.

So you don\'t know that reducing the amount of saliva you spread around
when talking by a factor of about 10 does protect other people
from the infections you are carrying.
If masks trapped droplets and sterilized them on the spot, they might
help a little. Of course, they don\'t.

But droplets are now deprecated as a major virus spreader.

The bigger picture is that, in physics and math and engineering,
theories are tested by hard experiment. In many other fields, truth is
set by social concensus, and keeps changing. So in areas like
nutrition and climate and medicine and sociology and economics, some
skeptcism is warranted.

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124

If we exclude the hard sciences, the rest are way over half wrong.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon
 
D

Dimiter_Popoff

Guest
On 12/3/2021 21:21, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 20:00:30 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com
wrote:

On 12/3/2021 18:43, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 17:46:56 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com
wrote:

On 12/3/2021 16:21, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:56:03 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
wrote:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8609898/pdf/nihpp-2021.11.12.468428v1.pdf

Christ, I gripe when a simulation, 3D rendering or animation takes
more than a day to build. Gotta wonder what sort of effort THAT
took!

(but, it\'s an entertaining use of ZFIPs!)

Pretty pictures, but do masks work?




What do you think, do they work. Why do *you* think surgeons wear
masks while operating.

Theatre?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

\"However, overall there is a lack of substantial evidence to support
claims that facemasks protect either patient or surgeon from
infectious contamination.\"



I know you know how they work and that they *do* work, why are you
out to do tribal propaganda now?

I don\'t know that they work. They may make things worse.

So you don\'t know that reducing the amount of saliva you spread around
when talking by a factor of about 10 does protect other people
from the infections you are carrying.

If masks trapped droplets and sterilized them on the spot, they might
help a little. Of course, they don\'t.
They do not need to sterilize the droplets. Capturing them is enough,
they are not meant to protect you from your infections.
And they *do* capture like 90% of the droplets a talking person
spreads, it is easy to measure.

But droplets are now deprecated as a major virus spreader.

The bigger picture is that, in physics and math and engineering,
theories are tested by hard experiment. In many other fields, truth is
set by social concensus, and keeps changing. So in areas like
nutrition and climate and medicine and sociology and economics, some
skeptcism is warranted.

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124

If we exclude the hard sciences, the rest are way over half wrong.
Consensus does not mean truth indeed.
I did suggest to you once an experiment - talk against a mirror
for a minute with then without a mask and compare the results.
Not difficult to do, if you want experimental proof; of course you
*know* you will see the factor of about 10 I am talking about.

Or will you claim that reducing the amount of droplets in the air
by a factor of 10 does not reduce the infection probability.
I know there are tons of disinformation written to support such
idiotic claims, hopefully you understand that posting links to
that sort of thing might work on a forum for housewives, not
here where most people are used to dig for cause of problems a
lot subtler than the probabilities to spit on someone\'s face
with and without wearing a mask.
 
R

Ralph Mowery

Guest
In article <sodt2i$c3r$1@dont-email.me>, dp@tgi-sci.com says...
Consensus does not mean truth indeed.
I did suggest to you once an experiment - talk against a mirror
for a minute with then without a mask and compare the results.
Not difficult to do, if you want experimental proof; of course you
*know* you will see the factor of about 10 I am talking about
Consensus is often wrong. Look at California and the consensus about
the $ 1000 crime limit.
 
D

Dimiter_Popoff

Guest
On 12/3/2021 22:47, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article <sodt2i$c3r$1@dont-email.me>, dp@tgi-sci.com says...

Consensus does not mean truth indeed.
I did suggest to you once an experiment - talk against a mirror
for a minute with then without a mask and compare the results.
Not difficult to do, if you want experimental proof; of course you
*know* you will see the factor of about 10 I am talking about


Consensus is often wrong. Look at California and the consensus about
the $ 1000 crime limit.
There are plenty of examples indeed. Not so long ago there was a
consensus the Earth was flat.

And of course there are obvious things one can check for themselves,
like the amount of saliva they spread while talking while they
wear a mask and when they don\'t, no need to look for consensus
on that. Like there is no need to look for it for the question
whether it is day or night, a look through the window is usually
enough.
 
J

John Larkin

Guest
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 22:01:22 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
wrote:

On 12/3/2021 21:21, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 20:00:30 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com
wrote:

On 12/3/2021 18:43, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 17:46:56 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com
wrote:

On 12/3/2021 16:21, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:56:03 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
wrote:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8609898/pdf/nihpp-2021.11.12.468428v1.pdf

Christ, I gripe when a simulation, 3D rendering or animation takes
more than a day to build. Gotta wonder what sort of effort THAT
took!

(but, it\'s an entertaining use of ZFIPs!)

Pretty pictures, but do masks work?




What do you think, do they work. Why do *you* think surgeons wear
masks while operating.

Theatre?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

\"However, overall there is a lack of substantial evidence to support
claims that facemasks protect either patient or surgeon from
infectious contamination.\"



I know you know how they work and that they *do* work, why are you
out to do tribal propaganda now?

I don\'t know that they work. They may make things worse.

So you don\'t know that reducing the amount of saliva you spread around
when talking by a factor of about 10 does protect other people
from the infections you are carrying.

If masks trapped droplets and sterilized them on the spot, they might
help a little. Of course, they don\'t.

They do not need to sterilize the droplets. Capturing them is enough,
they are not meant to protect you from your infections.
And they *do* capture like 90% of the droplets a talking person
spreads, it is easy to measure.
What happens to the viruses next?


But droplets are now deprecated as a major virus spreader.

The bigger picture is that, in physics and math and engineering,
theories are tested by hard experiment. In many other fields, truth is
set by social concensus, and keeps changing. So in areas like
nutrition and climate and medicine and sociology and economics, some
skeptcism is warranted.

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124

If we exclude the hard sciences, the rest are way over half wrong.


Consensus does not mean truth indeed.
I did suggest to you once an experiment - talk against a mirror
for a minute with then without a mask and compare the results.
Not difficult to do, if you want experimental proof; of course you
*know* you will see the factor of about 10 I am talking about.

Or will you claim that reducing the amount of droplets in the air
by a factor of 10 does not reduce the infection probability.
A macro-scale droplet will usually fall to the ground, where it will
dry up and get walked on and such. Those viruses are mostly out of the
game.

How about the ones trapped in a cloth mask? What\'s their destiny?

How about virus-bearing particles that are smaller than the cloth
weave?


--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon
 
J

John Larkin

Guest
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 23:00:42 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com>
wrote:

On 12/3/2021 22:47, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article <sodt2i$c3r$1@dont-email.me>, dp@tgi-sci.com says...

Consensus does not mean truth indeed.
I did suggest to you once an experiment - talk against a mirror
for a minute with then without a mask and compare the results.
Not difficult to do, if you want experimental proof; of course you
*know* you will see the factor of about 10 I am talking about


Consensus is often wrong. Look at California and the consensus about
the $ 1000 crime limit.



There are plenty of examples indeed. Not so long ago there was a
consensus the Earth was flat.

And of course there are obvious things one can check for themselves,
like the amount of saliva they spread while talking while they
wear a mask and when they don\'t, no need to look for consensus
on that. Like there is no need to look for it for the question
whether it is day or night, a look through the window is usually
enough.
Some of the most-masked, most-vaccinated countries are now having
record case peaks. Germany, Netherlands, Belgium.

Florida is relaxing a lot of restrictions, and cases have dropped
about 15:1 from peak... 1 death yesterday out of 22 million. UK, with
three times the population, had 143.

The causalities here are not at all obvious. That does not stop
politicians and \"experts\" from pontificating all day.

--

If a man will begin with certainties, he shall end with doubts,
but if he will be content to begin with doubts he shall end in certainties.
Francis Bacon
 
D

Dimiter_Popoff

Guest
On 12/3/2021 23:28, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 22:01:22 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com
wrote:

On 12/3/2021 21:21, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 20:00:30 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com
wrote:

On 12/3/2021 18:43, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 17:46:56 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com
wrote:

On 12/3/2021 16:21, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:56:03 -0700, Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid
wrote:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8609898/pdf/nihpp-2021.11.12.468428v1.pdf

Christ, I gripe when a simulation, 3D rendering or animation takes
more than a day to build. Gotta wonder what sort of effort THAT
took!

(but, it\'s an entertaining use of ZFIPs!)

Pretty pictures, but do masks work?




What do you think, do they work. Why do *you* think surgeons wear
masks while operating.

Theatre?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

\"However, overall there is a lack of substantial evidence to support
claims that facemasks protect either patient or surgeon from
infectious contamination.\"



I know you know how they work and that they *do* work, why are you
out to do tribal propaganda now?

I don\'t know that they work. They may make things worse.

So you don\'t know that reducing the amount of saliva you spread around
when talking by a factor of about 10 does protect other people
from the infections you are carrying.

If masks trapped droplets and sterilized them on the spot, they might
help a little. Of course, they don\'t.

They do not need to sterilize the droplets. Capturing them is enough,
they are not meant to protect you from your infections.
And they *do* capture like 90% of the droplets a talking person
spreads, it is easy to measure.

What happens to the viruses next?
Stay trapped in the mask until it is discarded, why do you pretend
to not see the obvious.

But droplets are now deprecated as a major virus spreader.

The bigger picture is that, in physics and math and engineering,
theories are tested by hard experiment. In many other fields, truth is
set by social concensus, and keeps changing. So in areas like
nutrition and climate and medicine and sociology and economics, some
skeptcism is warranted.

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124

If we exclude the hard sciences, the rest are way over half wrong.


Consensus does not mean truth indeed.
I did suggest to you once an experiment - talk against a mirror
for a minute with then without a mask and compare the results.
Not difficult to do, if you want experimental proof; of course you
*know* you will see the factor of about 10 I am talking about.

Or will you claim that reducing the amount of droplets in the air
by a factor of 10 does not reduce the infection probability.

A macro-scale droplet will usually fall to the ground, where it will
dry up and get walked on and such. Those viruses are mostly out of the
game.
Those that large you can see and run away from, typically you can
see the intention of the person to spit in your face and take measures.
The rest spat at you unintentionally from 1 meter or less will reach
you before falling.

How about the ones trapped in a cloth mask? What\'s their destiny?
Whatever their destiny they do not reach other people because they are
trapped.

How about virus-bearing particles that are smaller than the cloth
weave?
These are within the 10% I mentioned the mask cannot do much about.
The mask only gives about a tenfold protection, you know.
Like washing your hands without going through the
sterilizing procedures surgeons go through.
You do wash your hands from time to time, don\'t you :).

Wearing a mask in public spaces, especially in crowded ones, is
simply much better hygiene than not wearing one.
Since they made them mandatory I see *a lot* less seasonal
infections, running noses etc. I can\'t see a sane reason why
someone would not want to put a mask for the 5 or 15 minutes
while on a bus or in a shop etc., other than insisting on their
right to be antisocial and to spread infections.
 
T

Tom Gardner

Guest
On 03/12/21 21:42, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 23:00:42 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com
wrote:

On 12/3/2021 22:47, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article <sodt2i$c3r$1@dont-email.me>, dp@tgi-sci.com says...

Consensus does not mean truth indeed.
I did suggest to you once an experiment - talk against a mirror
for a minute with then without a mask and compare the results.
Not difficult to do, if you want experimental proof; of course you
*know* you will see the factor of about 10 I am talking about


Consensus is often wrong. Look at California and the consensus about
the $ 1000 crime limit.



There are plenty of examples indeed. Not so long ago there was a
consensus the Earth was flat.

And of course there are obvious things one can check for themselves,
like the amount of saliva they spread while talking while they
wear a mask and when they don\'t, no need to look for consensus
on that. Like there is no need to look for it for the question
whether it is day or night, a look through the window is usually
enough.

Some of the most-masked, most-vaccinated countries are now having
record case peaks. Germany, Netherlands, Belgium.

Florida is relaxing a lot of restrictions, and cases have dropped
about 15:1 from peak... 1 death yesterday out of 22 million. UK, with
three times the population, had 143.
No.

Belgium and the Netherlands have half the case rate of the UK.
(Germany has higher).

The UK has the lowest death rate, but it is tricky to compare
those figures due to the different counting methods. The only
reliable figure in that respect is the excess mortality.


The causalities here are not at all obvious. That does not stop
politicians and \"experts\" from pontificating all day.
Nor non-experts. Especially those that cherry pick data
to suit their predilection (hint hint)
 
A

Anthony William Sloman

Guest
On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 3:43:41 AM UTC+11, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 17:46:56 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <d...@tgi-sci.com
wrote:
On 12/3/2021 16:21, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:56:03 -0700, Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid
wrote:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8609898/pdf/nihpp-2021.11.12.468428v1.pdf

Christ, I gripe when a simulation, 3D rendering or animation takes
more than a day to build. Gotta wonder what sort of effort THAT
took!

(but, it\'s an entertaining use of ZFIPs!)

Pretty pictures, but do masks work?

What do you think, do they work. Why do *you* think surgeons wear
masks while operating.

Theatre?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

\"However, overall there is a lack of substantial evidence to support
claims that facemasks protect either patient or surgeon from
infectious contamination.\"
But \" More rigorous contemporary research is needed to make a definitive comment on the effectiveness of surgical facemasks.\"

In other words they aren\'t against facemasks but they would like a nice big grant to prove that they work, exploiting all the new (and expensive) modern technology to confirm what we already know.

I know you know how they work and that they *do* work, why are you
out to do tribal propaganda now?

I don\'t know that they work. They may make things worse.
John Larkin doesn\'t know much at the best of time. There\'s no way that they could make things worse.

BTW covid or not masks in closed public spaces are a good thing, the rate of seasonal infections has dropped dramatically since they were made mandatory.
Good hygiene is not a bad idea, you know.
But John Larkin isn\'t good a recognising good ideas that aren\'t his own. \"Not invented here\" does seem to [part of his mind-set.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
A

Anthony William Sloman

Guest
On Saturday, December 4, 2021 at 6:22:18 AM UTC+11, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 20:00:30 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <d...@tgi-sci.com> wrote:
On 12/3/2021 18:43, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 17:46:56 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <d...@tgi-sci.com> wrote:
On 12/3/2021 16:21, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:56:03 -0700, Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid> wrote:
<snip>

If masks trapped droplets and sterilized them on the spot, they might
help a little. Of course, they don\'t.
As soon as the droplet is trapped, it isn\'t going to go off and infect anybody else. Sterilisation isn\'t necessary (though it would be nice).

> But droplets are now deprecated as a major virus spreader.

By whom? Cite?

> The bigger picture is that, in physics and math and engineering, theories are tested by hard experiment. In many other fields, truth is set by social concensus, and keeps changing.

Science as whole is a device for establishing \"truth\" by social concensus. What\'s accepted as true does change as the evidence builds up, and experimental sciences do lend themselves to collecting more reliable evidence.

> So in areas like nutrition and climate and medicine and sociology and economics, some skeptcism is warranted.

Skepticism is always warranted. You do have to look at - and understand - the evidence, which isn\'t something that John Larkin seems to be able to manage.

https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0020124

If we exclude the hard sciences, the rest are way over half wrong.
There are more defects in papers where the evidence is less definitive. \"Half wrong\" puts a number on something that isn\'t well defined. The papers in question may not have been as precise as one would have liked, but finding many that led to false conclusions would be difficult - it won\'t anything like half.

The PLOS paper didn\'t cite one. They were being rude about medical research, which is notoriously sloppy - for the sake of their mental health doctors are trained to make up their minds rapidly and not spend time worrying about the patients that end up dying, and this isn\'t a good mind set for finding confounds to ostensibly persuasive evidence.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
R

Rick C

Guest
On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 10:47:05 AM UTC-5, Dimiter Popoff wrote:
On 12/3/2021 16:21, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:56:03 -0700, Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid
wrote:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8609898/pdf/nihpp-2021.11.12.468428v1.pdf

Christ, I gripe when a simulation, 3D rendering or animation takes
more than a day to build. Gotta wonder what sort of effort THAT
took!

(but, it\'s an entertaining use of ZFIPs!)

Pretty pictures, but do masks work?



What do you think, do they work. Why do *you* think surgeons wear
masks while operating.

I know you know how they work and that they *do* work, why are you
out to do tribal propaganda now?

BTW covid or not masks in closed public spaces are a good thing,
the rate of seasonal infections has dropped dramatically since they
were made mandatory.
Good hygiene is not a bad idea, you know.
Masks don\'t work very well if they aren\'t worn properly which many people don\'t do if at all. In Puerto Rico the virus seems to be taken seriously in most places, especially in the more urban areas. I\'ve actually had to show my vaccine card to enter restaurants. But in the states, I enter a gas station and I might be the only person wearing a mask other than the workers and often they pull the mask down as soon as the customer walks away.

It is sad that a country like the US can get so outraged that we were attacked by a group of radicals who killed 3,000 on our home soil, which we responded to by allowing 4,000 more to die overseas and instituting all manner of rules about air travel costing billions of dollars and requiring us to take off our shoes to get on a fucking airplane... unless you pay for the expedited clearance which allows them to wave requirements. But when it comes to a global pandemic we can\'t listen to doctors and scientists, instead decide that quack remedies will deal with the pandemic. Meanwhile millions of people die... because of stupidity.

--

Rick C.

- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
R

Rick C

Guest
On Friday, December 3, 2021 at 1:00:37 PM UTC-5, Dimiter Popoff wrote:
On 12/3/2021 18:43, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 17:46:56 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <d...@tgi-sci.com
wrote:

On 12/3/2021 16:21, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 2 Dec 2021 11:56:03 -0700, Don Y <blocked...@foo.invalid
wrote:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8609898/pdf/nihpp-2021..11.12.468428v1.pdf

Christ, I gripe when a simulation, 3D rendering or animation takes
more than a day to build. Gotta wonder what sort of effort THAT
took!

(but, it\'s an entertaining use of ZFIPs!)

Pretty pictures, but do masks work?




What do you think, do they work. Why do *you* think surgeons wear
masks while operating.

Theatre?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4480558/

\"However, overall there is a lack of substantial evidence to support
claims that facemasks protect either patient or surgeon from
infectious contamination.\"



I know you know how they work and that they *do* work, why are you
out to do tribal propaganda now?

I don\'t know that they work. They may make things worse.
So you don\'t know that reducing the amount of saliva you spread around
when talking by a factor of about 10 does protect other people
from the infections you are carrying.
Obviously you *do* know that, you manage a lot more complex
tasks in your work than what it takes to see this.
I never understand why people respond to trolls. It is very clear that Larkin starts these discussions so he can argue meaninglessly with people. There\'s no thought to what he writes. The article he linked to simply says the hard evidence that surgical masks prevent infection is not robust. The article discusses no evidence they do NOT protect, yet Larkin suggests masks may make \"things worse\". I suppose based on the same line of reasoning we could say wearing surgical masks *may* make you sterile or they *may* make you a millionaire. The report found no evidence to contradict any of this.

The guy is a troll. Why respond to such stupid posts. It\'s like responding to skybuck2000. I suppose some people find stringing him along to be entertaining. \"Let\'s get Larkin to show what a fool he is\"...

--

Rick C.

+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
T

Tom Gardner

Guest
On 03/12/21 23:20, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 23:16:17 +0000, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 03/12/21 21:42, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 23:00:42 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com
wrote:

On 12/3/2021 22:47, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article <sodt2i$c3r$1@dont-email.me>, dp@tgi-sci.com says...

Consensus does not mean truth indeed.
I did suggest to you once an experiment - talk against a mirror
for a minute with then without a mask and compare the results.
Not difficult to do, if you want experimental proof; of course you
*know* you will see the factor of about 10 I am talking about


Consensus is often wrong. Look at California and the consensus about
the $ 1000 crime limit.



There are plenty of examples indeed. Not so long ago there was a
consensus the Earth was flat.

And of course there are obvious things one can check for themselves,
like the amount of saliva they spread while talking while they
wear a mask and when they don\'t, no need to look for consensus
on that. Like there is no need to look for it for the question
whether it is day or night, a look through the window is usually
enough.

Some of the most-masked, most-vaccinated countries are now having
record case peaks. Germany, Netherlands, Belgium.

Florida is relaxing a lot of restrictions, and cases have dropped
about 15:1 from peak... 1 death yesterday out of 22 million. UK, with
three times the population, had 143.

No.

Belgium and the Netherlands have half the case rate of the UK.
(Germany has higher).

The UK has the lowest death rate, but it is tricky to compare
those figures due to the different counting methods. The only
reliable figure in that respect is the excess mortality.


The causalities here are not at all obvious. That does not stop
politicians and \"experts\" from pontificating all day.

Nor non-experts. Especially those that cherry pick data
to suit their predilection (hint hint)


One can define unwelcome or unpopular data as cherry picking. I like
to consider those things as \"possibilities.\"

Or always Trust The Science.
Indeed.

Cherrypicking and confusing 2x with x/2 are antithetical to science.
 
S

server

Guest
On Sat, 4 Dec 2021 09:07:23 +0000, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 03/12/21 23:20, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 23:16:17 +0000, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 03/12/21 21:42, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 3 Dec 2021 23:00:42 +0200, Dimiter_Popoff <dp@tgi-sci.com
wrote:

On 12/3/2021 22:47, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article <sodt2i$c3r$1@dont-email.me>, dp@tgi-sci.com says...

Consensus does not mean truth indeed.
I did suggest to you once an experiment - talk against a mirror
for a minute with then without a mask and compare the results.
Not difficult to do, if you want experimental proof; of course you
*know* you will see the factor of about 10 I am talking about


Consensus is often wrong. Look at California and the consensus about
the $ 1000 crime limit.



There are plenty of examples indeed. Not so long ago there was a
consensus the Earth was flat.

And of course there are obvious things one can check for themselves,
like the amount of saliva they spread while talking while they
wear a mask and when they don\'t, no need to look for consensus
on that. Like there is no need to look for it for the question
whether it is day or night, a look through the window is usually
enough.

Some of the most-masked, most-vaccinated countries are now having
record case peaks. Germany, Netherlands, Belgium.

Florida is relaxing a lot of restrictions, and cases have dropped
about 15:1 from peak... 1 death yesterday out of 22 million. UK, with
three times the population, had 143.

No.

Belgium and the Netherlands have half the case rate of the UK.
(Germany has higher).

The UK has the lowest death rate, but it is tricky to compare
those figures due to the different counting methods. The only
reliable figure in that respect is the excess mortality.


The causalities here are not at all obvious. That does not stop
politicians and \"experts\" from pontificating all day.

Nor non-experts. Especially those that cherry pick data
to suit their predilection (hint hint)


One can define unwelcome or unpopular data as cherry picking. I like
to consider those things as \"possibilities.\"

Or always Trust The Science.

Indeed.

Cherrypicking and confusing 2x with x/2 are antithetical to science.
Covid cases here have decreased by 140%.



--

Father Brown\'s figure remained quite dark and still;
but in that instant he had lost his head. His head was
always most valuable when he had lost it.
 
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