Refrigerator current load

[Tom Del Rosso]

pfjw@aol.com wrote:

a) If the landlord provides wiring that is/was to-code when installed.
b) If the code states that a refrigerator should be on a dedicated
circuit.
c) If the tenant attempts to go around the original and proper
installation and/or add additional load than just the refrigerator.

It is unlikely the landlord will get dinged 'if the building burns' -
as the lawyers will go through the first-cause (you) first.

No idea what you're talking about since I never said it was modified by
me. How did I "cause" a problem by plugging a toaster oven into the
other outlet?

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

amdx wrote:

On 2/25/2020 10:38 AM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:

Yeah, thanks, but I realize that. It's the landlord's fault if the
building burns. I have my own insurance. His might be cancelled.

Hope you're not sleeping if a fire starts!

I hardly ever use a toaster oven while I'm sleeping. It's the only 9 amp
load I have.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

No idea what you're talking about since I never said it was modified by
me. How did I "cause" a problem by plugging a toaster oven into the
other outlet?

By adding a second load to what should be a dedicated circuit.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

pfjw@aol.com wrote:

No idea what you're talking about since I never said it was modified
by me. How did I "cause" a problem by plugging a toaster oven into
the other outlet?


By adding a second load to what should be a dedicated circuit.

But it is not my fault that it is not a dedicated circuit. Nor am I
required to know whether or not it is. The owner is liable not me.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

But it is not my fault that it is not a dedicated circuit. Nor am I
required to know whether or not it is. The owner is liable not me.

Wrong. Two reasons:

a) Ignorance is not a defense - that is, and has been, "common law" for over 2,000 years. And, yes, "common law" does apply to liability.

b) NEC requires a dedicated outlet for the refrigerator. Ipso-facto, where the refrigerator is plugged in is dedicated. And that receptacle may not be shared per the code. The reasoning may appear circular, but it remains how it would be in a pinch.

When I was doing this for a living (more than 40 years ago) we used simplex receptacles for the refrigerator line. So that down-line idiots did not make that same mistake you might make. That and any other 'dedicated' circuits, with special reference to AC, 240 V Dryer and similar circuits.

https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/53CX77_GC01?$mdmain$

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <fc01f57a-c842-4675-b2b5-a90a99e56bb1@googlegroups.com>,
peterwieck33@gmail.com says...

b) NEC requires a dedicated outlet for the refrigerator. Ipso-facto, where the refrigerator is plugged in is dedicated. And that receptacle may not be shared per the code. The reasoning may appear circular, but it remains how it would be in a pinch.

Son moved into a house that had the refrigerator on a circuit with
several other outlets in the kitchen. Was even powered from a
receptical that was a ground fault. Found this out one day when he
called and said there was no power on his refrigerator. No breakers
were tripped. I looked around and finally found the GFCI receptical
that was tripped.

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

pfjw@aol.com wrote:

But it is not my fault that it is not a dedicated circuit. Nor am I
required to know whether or not it is. The owner is liable not me.

Wrong. Two reasons:

a) Ignorance is not a defense - that is, and has been, "common law"
for over 2,000 years. And, yes, "common law" does apply to liability.

That's ignorance of the law, not ignorance of what an electrician did
under someone else's supervision.

b) NEC requires a dedicated outlet for the refrigerator. Ipso-facto,
where the refrigerator is plugged in is dedicated. And that
receptacle may not be shared per the code. The reasoning may appear
circular, but it remains how it would be in a pinch.

So you are under the impression that I have something plugged into the
same outlet. I didn't say that. I said it was on the same breaker as
other outlets. There is no way in hell I would be blamed for using
another outlet.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

Cutting to the chase:

a) You have demonstrated, in a public forum, that you fully understand the situation.
b) You also demonstrate that you understand the code.
c) You also demonstrate that you know that the situation is not up to present code.
d) You also demonstrate that you understand that by plugging in a second large-use device, you are creating a risk, albeit a very small one.

Feigned ignorance will get you nowhere should that risk manifest. You might not like it, but the other principle of assigning liability is called "Last Clear Chance". Which you also demonstrate as having, clearly.

https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1107

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

pfjw@aol.com wrote:

Feigned ignorance will get you nowhere should that risk manifest. You
might not like it, but the other principle of assigning liability is
called "Last Clear Chance". Which you also demonstrate as having,
clearly.

https://dictionary.law.com/Default.aspx?selected=1107

"could have still avoided the accident by reasonable care in the final
moments"

Which I could not do, since using no other electrical devices is not an
option. And then there are housing regulations that would ensure the
owner is liable.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

Which I could not do, since using no other electrical devices is not an
option. And then there are housing regulations that would ensure the
owner is liable.

Well, in the awful event that you need to test this belief, I hope you survive the event unscathed, and I hope that you are successful should it go to court.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[ehsjr]

On 2/27/2020 12:33 PM, pfjw@aol.com wrote:

But it is not my fault that it is not a dedicated circuit. Nor am I
required to know whether or not it is. The owner is liable not me.

Wrong. Two reasons:

a) Ignorance is not a defense - that is, and has been, "common law" for over 2,000 years. And, yes, "common law" does apply to liability.

b) NEC requires a dedicated outlet for the refrigerator. Ipso-facto, where the refrigerator is plugged in is dedicated. And that receptacle may not be shared per the code. The reasoning may appear circular, but it remains how it would be in a pinch.

When I was doing this for a living (more than 40 years ago) we used simplex receptacles for the refrigerator line. So that down-line idiots did not make that same mistake you might make. That and any other 'dedicated' circuits, with special reference to AC, 240 V Dryer and similar circuits.

https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/53CX77_GC01?$mdmain$

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

Neither the logic nor the NEC apply to him plugging
a toaster into a receptacle, dedicated or not.

There is NO requirement per the NEC that the receptacle
for the 'fridge be dedicated.
(quoting the NEC)
210.52(B)(1) Receptacle Outlets Served. In the kitchen, pantry,
breakfast room, dining room, or similar area of a dwelling unit,
the two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits required
by 210.11(C)(1) shall serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets
covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C),
and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment.


The current NEC requires that the (two or more) small appliance
circuits and receptacle be in the kitchen, wired properly etc.
It does NOT govern what the user plugs into them. Nor does it say
a circuit must be dedicated to the refrigerator.

As to the law - what law specifies that a user not
plug a toaster into a receptacle?

Ed

 

On Thursday, 27 February 2020 17:33:28 UTC, pf...@aol.com wrote:

But it is not my fault that it is not a dedicated circuit. Nor am I
required to know whether or not it is. The owner is liable not me.

Wrong. Two reasons:

a) Ignorance is not a defense - that is, and has been, "common law" for over 2,000 years. And, yes, "common law" does apply to liability.

b) NEC requires a dedicated outlet for the refrigerator. Ipso-facto, where the refrigerator is plugged in is dedicated. And that receptacle may not be shared per the code. The reasoning may appear circular, but it remains how it would be in a pinch.

When I was doing this for a living (more than 40 years ago) we used simplex receptacles for the refrigerator line. So that down-line idiots did not make that same mistake you might make. That and any other 'dedicated' circuits, with special reference to AC, 240 V Dryer and similar circuits.

https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/53CX77_GC01?$mdmain$

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? Such a thing is unheard of here.


NT

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 7:26:13 AM UTC-5, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? Such a thing is unheard of here.

It is done to prevent another device from tripping the breaker, and letting food spoil. I suppose Botulism is unheard there, as well?

 

[John Robertson]

On 2020/02/28 7:36 a.m., Michael Terrell wrote:

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 7:26:13 AM UTC-5, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? Such a thing is unheard of here.


It is done to prevent another device from tripping the breaker, and letting food spoil. I suppose Botulism is unheard there, as well?

Electrical code in Canada requires refrigerators to be on a separate
outlet (with only a single power outlet, not a dual outlet as well) with
their own breaker for just that reason.

(irrational rant on)
Government electrical safety regulations, who needs them?
(irrational rant off)

John :-#)#

 

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <bc541529-bc28-4eb5-bc37-1905b84313bb@googlegroups.com>,
terrell.michael.a@gmail.com says...

why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? Such a thing is unheard of here.


It is done to prevent another device from tripping the breaker, and letting food spoil. I suppose Botulism is unheard there, as well?

I think there is something in the NEC about the ground fault outlets in
a basement not needing to be uses on the refrigerator/freezor outlet for
the same reason.

Like the idiot that wired a GFCI receptical and down stream was the
refrigerator receptical in a house my son bought. Ground fault tripped
and almost let the refrigerator get too warm before he caught it.

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 7:26:13 AM UTC-5, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

On Thursday, 27 February 2020 17:33:28 UTC, pf...@aol.com wrote:

But it is not my fault that it is not a dedicated circuit. Nor am I
required to know whether or not it is. The owner is liable not me.

Wrong. Two reasons:

a) Ignorance is not a defense - that is, and has been, "common law" for over 2,000 years. And, yes, "common law" does apply to liability.

b) NEC requires a dedicated outlet for the refrigerator. Ipso-facto, where the refrigerator is plugged in is dedicated. And that receptacle may not be shared per the code. The reasoning may appear circular, but it remains how it would be in a pinch.

When I was doing this for a living (more than 40 years ago) we used simplex receptacles for the refrigerator line. So that down-line idiots did not make that same mistake you might make. That and any other 'dedicated' circuits, with special reference to AC, 240 V Dryer and similar circuits.

https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/image/Grainger/53CX77_GC01?$mdmain$

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? Such a thing is unheard of here.


NT

I guess this is why Brits prefer warm beer.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Phil Allison]

tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

---------------------------

why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet?
Such a thing is unheard of here.

** IME, it is common practice here ( Australia ) to put fridges and freezers on a dedicated circuit since they often have high levels of leakage to earth.

That circuit would also not be under control on an ELCB or similar.

Otherwise, the ELCB needs to be set at an hazardous trip current to avoid outages and food spoilage.



..... Phil

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 12:41:19 PM UTC-5, pf...@aol.com wrote:

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 7:26:13 AM UTC-5, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

why would a fridge [need to be] be on its own dedicated outlet? Such a thing is unheard of here.

I guess this is why Brits prefer warm beer.

No, it's because their refrigerators are made by Lucas!

 

[pfjw@aol.com]

No, it's because their refrigerators are made by Lucas!

Prince of Darkness, yes.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Friday, February 28, 2020 at 3:55:25 PM UTC-5, pf...@aol.com wrote:

No, it's because their refrigerators are made by Lucas!


Prince of Darkness, yes.

And he prefers to live in England, thank God!