PC or Mac for at- home engineering?

[Joe Gwinn]

In article <ltvtcu$4ni$1@dont-email.me>, Tauno Voipio
<tauno.voipio@notused.fi.invalid> wrote:

On 31.8.14 17:35, radams2000@gmail.com wrote:
Some day I might actually get to semi- retire, and would like to continue
to do explorations on my own dime. I do a lot of signal- processing work
with Matlab, but also do analog and digital design and might even need to
spin some simple PC boards. Which is better for this , PC or Mac ? I don't
know what Mocrosoft has in store to replace win7 with something serious and
not a toy. But I like that there's lots of nearly- free programs for PC 's
and that seems less common for macs.

Bob


I got tired of PC laptops dying under a year of use, and bought a
MacBook Pro which is still after five years in use.

The problem with operating systems is easily solved with VMware Fusion,
and the other systems in virtual machines (here: Solaris, BSD, a bunch
of Linuces and Windows XP).

Some people buy Macs, and then install Windows over MacOS, to get the
better hardware.

Alternately, people (like myself) install Parallels on the Mac, then
full-up Win7 (Win8 will be ignored) in the partition. That way, I can
have all three major platforms. Three? Yes, three. Windows, MacOS,
and UNIX/Linux (which is the underpinnings of MacOS 10 et seq, and so
is built in).

Joe Gwinn

 

[ChesterW]

On 8/31/14, 2:24 PM, rickman wrote:

On 8/31/2014 12:44 PM, ChesterW wrote:

I updated the HDD to a 1 TB SSD about a year ago and updated the memory
from 4 to 8 Gig about two years ago. No problem with the hardware
upgrades, although on the newer models I think they may have switched to
soldered-in memory.

1 TB SSD? I expect that alone cost more than my entire laptop?

About 500 bucks. Makes programs start almost as if from RAM. Worth it to
me for the productivity increase.

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Crucial/CT1024M550SS/

ChesterW

 

[Don Y]

Hi Lasse,

On 8/31/2014 12:45 PM, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

Den sřndag den 31. august 2014 21.36.27 UTC+2 skrev Don Y:

Most of my Mac friends don't want to be bothered with maintaining
their "computer" -- any moreso than they want to change their own
oil in their vehicles! Or, even having to *wait* for the oil to
be changed (instead of continuing with their planned
chores/activities).

OTOH, most of my "PC" friends don't have a choice (or, haven't
realized that they had one!)

at one point tomshardware I think tried to see if MACs very really
more expensive than PC, sure you could get a cheap windows laptop,
but when they spec'd the windows laptop to be similar to the MAC
offering they were priced the same

Most of my (professional) colleagues aren't concerned with price.
They realize that the effort to replace/reinstall software **FAR**
outweighs the cost of any hardware replacement! So, their choices
for hardware (PC or Mac) tend to be at the higher end of the
spectrum.

But, it still boils down to how much they want to dick with their
tools vs. concentrating on the job at hand (i.e., what they are
PAID to do!).

The majority of PC users are bottom-feeders regarding price. They
want inexpensive (which also is synonymous with *cheap* -- in the
pejorative sense!) and ignore (or minimize) the "maintenance" costs
of that choice.

And, those who are drawn like moths to the "latest and greatest"
flame seem to fare pretty well in that regard! They replace their
machines so often that the keycaps never get soiled! :-/

I've been tempted to buy a Mac just for some of the higher end audio
kit, etc. But, not enough hours in the day to pursue everything I'd
*like* to! :<

 

[ChesterW]

On 8/31/14, 9:35 AM, radams2000@gmail.com wrote:

Some day I might actually get to semi- retire, and would like to continue to do explorations on my own dime. I do a lot of signal- processing work with Matlab, but also do analog and digital design and might even need to spin some simple PC boards. Which is better for this , PC or Mac ? I don't know what Mocrosoft has in store to replace win7 with something serious and not a toy. But I like that there's lots of nearly- free programs for PC 's and that seems less common for macs.

Bob

Another thing I like about the Mac setup is easy integration with the
iPad, although I think you can do this too on a Windows machine.

I find useful an iPad app called Goodreader to manage and markup project
pdf files, datasheets, annotated pcb screen shots and such. It's handy
for carrying documentation to the bench.

Ipad also works as a third monitor for the Mac with an app called Air
Display, for using on the bench, but it's not as handy as I thought it
would be. Its main utility is portability for temporary visuals such as
a section of a PCB layout. Most GUI elements are too small for easy use.

TI makes a nice iPad app for emulating its TI-nspire CX for iPad that I
find useful for simple analysis.

I find an iPad app called SG Project Pro useful for simple project
management.

Overall I find it very useful to have access to my project documents on
a portable device. Working away from the office sometimes provides a
nice change of scenery.

ChesterW

 

[David Eather]

On Mon, 01 Sep 2014 00:35:31 +1000, <radams2000@gmail.com> wrote:

Some day I might actually get to semi- retire, and would like to
continue to do explorations on my own dime. I do a lot of signal-
processing work with Matlab, but also do analog and digital design and
might even need to spin some simple PC boards. Which is better for this
, PC or Mac ? I don't know what Mocrosoft has in store to replace win7
with something serious and not a toy. But I like that there's lots of
nearly- free programs for PC 's and that seems less common for macs.

Bob

Get a PV and get it set up for dual boot Windows and Linux - not every
windows program runs under wine and you will want to do some things in
windows

 

On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 15:24:52 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 8/31/2014 12:44 PM, ChesterW wrote:

I updated the HDD to a 1 TB SSD about a year ago and updated the memory
from 4 to 8 Gig about two years ago. No problem with the hardware
upgrades, although on the newer models I think they may have switched to
soldered-in memory.

1 TB SSD? I expect that alone cost more than my entire laptop?

SSD had a sharp price decrease earlier this year. About a month ago I
bought a 512GB SSD from Crucial for $225. A 1TB SDD is about $500.

 

[Don Y]

Hi Bob,

On 8/31/2014 3:23 PM, radams2000@gmail.com wrote:

Thanks for the advice. Even though I use Linux every day, I'm not
much of a sys admin and the last time I tried to install Linux on a
PC I got pretty frustrated. But that was about 10 years ago and I
suspect things are better now.

I'm kind of liking the 3-way Mac idea. I could invest in a pretty
high- end desktop Mac.

I don't like multi-boot machines, VMs, etc. I'd rather just have
another desktop, laptop, etc. squirreled away for <whatever>
applications it may need. It also minimizes the amount of stuff on
any particular spindle (e.g., a disk crash doesn't cost you *all*
your "environments")

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2014-08-31, Neon John <no@never.com> wrote:

On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 07:35:31 -0700 (PDT), radams2000@gmail.com wrote:

Some day I might actually get to semi- retire, and would like to continue to do explorations on my own dime. I do a lot of signal- processing work with Matlab, but also do analog and digital design and might even need to spin some simple PC boards. Which is better for this , PC or Mac ? I don't know what Mocrosoft has in store to replace win7 with something serious and not a toy. But I like that there's lots of nearly- free programs for PC 's and that seems less common for macs.

Linux.

The hardware doesn't much matter, though most binary compatible
programs are distributed in PC format.

We've got a mac at work with ubuntu installed, it's x68 so all the PC
linux binaries will run on it.

--
umop apisdn


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

 

[Jasen Betts]

On 2014-08-31, Don Y <this@is.not.me.com> wrote:

Hi Rick,

On 8/31/2014 12:21 PM, rickman wrote:
On 8/31/2014 12:36 PM, Fred McKenzie wrote:

Get the best of two worlds. Get a Macintosh. Install Linux on a second
partition.

If you pay the extra dough for a Mac but run most of your engineering
programs under Linux, what exactly did you gain? If the OP is using a
desktop he can just buy a PC with Linux or no OS and install Linux
himself and skip all the expensive stuff from both MS and Apple. Laptops
can be had with Linux, but I haven't found one that didn't cost more
than a similar PC with Windows.

Go the "Hackintosh" route?

Apple is considerably more expensive than a PC. OTOH, I rarely hear
Mac users complaining as LOUDLY and as OFTEN as PC users!

As I was alluding in my post on this subject, a lot comes from your
personal attitude towards the tools. Do you want them to "just work"?
Or, are you willing to put up with some "grief" to get where you
want to be?

Most of my Mac friends don't want to be bothered with maintaining
their "computer" -- any moreso than they want to change their own
oil in their vehicles! Or, even having to *wait* for the oil to be
changed (instead of continuing with their planned chores/activities).

When it just stopped working we installed Ubuntu.

--
umop apisdn


--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: news@netfront.net ---

 

[David Brown]

On 31/08/14 18:44, ChesterW wrote:

On 8/31/14, 9:35 AM, radams2000@gmail.com wrote:
Some day I might actually get to semi- retire, and would like to
continue to do explorations on my own dime. I do a lot of signal-
processing work with Matlab, but also do analog and digital design and
might even need to spin some simple PC boards. Which is better for
this , PC or Mac ? I don't know what Mocrosoft has in store to replace
win7 with something serious and not a toy. But I like that there's
lots of nearly- free programs for PC 's and that seems less common for
macs.

Bob


Hi Bob,

I switched to a MacBook Pro 3 1/2 years ago and am very satisfied with
the decision. It's used for general business, PCB layout, running IDEs,
3D CAD and printing, signal processing design and testing in Matlab, and
data logging from USB connection to various instruments.

A virtualization program, Parallels Desktop, runs Windows XP 32 and 64
bit versions, and I occasionally load a Linux release, but haven't used
it for any real work.

Why bother with the expensive Mac hardware, Mac OS, and virtualisation
program (Parallels or VMWare)?

Spend the money on decent hardware that suits your needs, and install
Linux. There are free Linux programs for a large proportion of needs,
and commercial/closed-source Linux versions of lots of other software.
For Windows-only software, Wine may do a good enough job.

If you need to run other Windows-only software, use /free/ VirtualBox to
make a virtual machine for Windows XP or Win7 (you must have a license
for Windows, of course).

There are virtually /no/ Mac-only programs that anyone would choose to
run, so Mac OS is pretty useless unless you are completely addicted to
Apple.

Some people think Mac /hardware/ is a good choice - it is usually
solidly built and some think that the design and appearance is nice.
You can then simply wipe the Mac OS and install Linux.

 

On Sun, 31 Aug 2014 16:47:19 -0700 (PDT), edward.ming.lee@gmail.com
wrote:

Get a PV and get it set up for dual boot Windows and Linux - not every windows program runs under wine and you will want to do some things in windows

Yes, i still need mspaint to do simple drawings and Microsoft will find ways to stop skype on Linux. Older version of skype no longer work. We are forced to upgrade on Window.

I just carry a Macbook and a Dell PC laptop. Takes care of almost
anything. The Mac has XP on bootcamp if windows 7 isn't enough
compatibility. Mac OSX is Unix so that pretty much takes care
of anything related but the next partition on the Dell would probably
be Ubuntu or similar.

I find that one OS just does't work for everything. For example, IAR
IDE/compiler doesn't run on Lin/Un--ix... There are certainly more
and more applications that run under OSX though and that's good.

I find that most hardcore Max-oids don't know anything about computers
and Apple has to wipe their butts for them... Love their hardware
(the macbook pro) but do not like Apple as a company.

boB

 

[miso]

Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 8/31/2014 10:35 AM, radams2000@gmail.com wrote:
Some day I might actually get to semi- retire, and would like to
continue to do explorations on my own dime. I do a lot of signal-
processing work with Matlab, but also do analog and digital design
and might even need to spin some simple PC boards. Which is better
for this , PC or Mac ? I don't know what Mocrosoft has in store to
replace win7 with something serious and not a toy. But I like that
there's lots of nearly- free programs for PC 's and that seems less
common for macs.

Bob

Linux has a matlab clone called Octave.

You might consider using Linux. LTspice runs very well, because AIUI
Mike Engelhardt is careful about Wine compatibility. (It saves him from
having to maintain a Linux version of LTspice.) There's a Linux version
of Eagle, if you want a reasonably full-featured layout package.

It isn't clear if Microsoft will ever release another OS for grown-ups,
but you can have Linux any way you like.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

You can run a lot of those free windows programs on linux under wine. Nec
for instance.

LT Spice kicks ass on Linux. No trouble at all getting it to work under
wine.

Unless you need USB, wine is pretty good. Some USB works, though perhaps not
intentionally. You can run mapsource on the older so called serial GPSs that
use USB. That GPS60 being the end of the line as far as I know. I'm not so
sure what is different with the later model GPSs since I have no reason to
upgrade.

For those that don't run linux, you need to investigate the "repository".
That is the app store except you don't pay for anything. Also the source
code is vetted (hopefully).

Some programs can be difficult to install, such as google earth.
I've also run very old 16 bit code on dosbox.

 

[miso]

Ask those Hollywood starlets that have their naked photos on the internet if
"Apple just works."

Apple can market, but they can't code. They suck just as bad at security as
microsoft.

 

[miso]

Don Y wrote:

Hi Bob,

On 8/31/2014 3:23 PM, radams2000@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for the advice. Even though I use Linux every day, I'm not
much of a sys admin and the last time I tried to install Linux on a
PC I got pretty frustrated. But that was about 10 years ago and I
suspect things are better now.

I'm kind of liking the 3-way Mac idea. I could invest in a pretty
high- end desktop Mac.

I don't like multi-boot machines, VMs, etc. I'd rather just have
another desktop, laptop, etc. squirreled away for <whatever
applications it may need. It also minimizes the amount of stuff on
any particular spindle (e.g., a disk crash doesn't cost you *all*
your "environments")

Sometimes you need to flash a peripheral. They write the code for windows
nowadays. In the dark ages, they would give you a boot program to flash a
peripheral.

About the only thing that runs better on a mac is photshop elements, only
because Adobe is to lazy to write a 64 bit version. But there is good linux
photo software these days. Gimp is still 8 bits per pixel, and the 16 bit
version never seems to get released.

 

Does anyone have experience with FPGA programming tools on non- PC platforms?

Bob

 

[David Brown]

On 02/09/14 13:26, radams2000@gmail.com wrote:

Does anyone have experience with FPGA programming tools on non- PC platforms?

Bob

When you say "FPGA programming tools", do you mean tools for putting the
image into the FPGA or flash, or do you mean tools for developing FPGA
code? And when you say "non-PC platforms", do you mean "non-Windows
platforms" or do you mean things like Sparc workstations, ARM embedded
boards, android tablets, etc.?

Certainly Linux on x86 is supported by most FPGA design and programming
tools, and is a common choice of platform. Support for non-x86 host
processors is going far more limited - you could probably burn the image
into the FPGA or flash using tools like OpenOCD or pyftdi, but you will
not be able to generate the image files.

 

[Neon John]

On Tue, 2 Sep 2014 04:26:31 -0700 (PDT), radams2000@gmail.com wrote:

>Does anyone have experience with FPGA programming tools on non- PC platforms?

Quartus comes in a native Linux flavor. It's configured for RedHat so
it takes some minor tinkering to get it to run under Ubuntu. It runs
fine - well, as fine as Quartus is ever going to run - under Linux.

John

John DeArmond
http://www.neon-john.com
http://www.fluxeon.com
Tellico Plains, Occupied TN
See website for email address

 

[Don Y]

Hi Bob,

On 9/2/2014 4:26 AM, radams2000@gmail.com wrote:
> Does anyone have experience with FPGA programming tools on non- PC platforms?

Do you mean VHDL compilers et ilk?

 

[rickman]

On 9/3/2014 12:34 AM, Don Y wrote:

On 9/1/2014 11:56 PM, miso wrote:

About the only thing that runs better on a mac is photshop elements, only
because Adobe is to lazy to write a 64 bit version. But there is good
linux
photo software these days. Gimp is still 8 bits per pixel, and the 16 bit
version never seems to get released.

Dunno. I've not run anything "Apple" since the 68040 days (MacOS 7?).

However, the folks I know who run Macs tend to run Apple *throughout*.
I.e., Desktop, laptop, iPad, iPod, iPhone, etc. I suspect it is a
far more seamless experience than the MS approach -- to ANYTHING!

Apple is not without their warts too. My roommate has an iPhone which
he usually loves but when it comes time for updates he often goes into
fits. Once he couldn't update because he kept getting errors he
couldn't resolve when he tried to backup. Later he had to trade his
phone in to upgrade the OS. I think now he can't get the backups to his
computer to work at all and they are offering backups to the "cloud".
But that doesn't get you access of any kind, just the ability to restore
if your phone gets crapped on.

Yes, he loves his iPhone.... he loves to cuss it.

--

Rick

 

[Don Y]

Hi Rick,

On 9/2/2014 11:07 PM, rickman wrote:

On 9/3/2014 12:34 AM, Don Y wrote:
On 9/1/2014 11:56 PM, miso wrote:

About the only thing that runs better on a mac is photshop elements,
only
because Adobe is to lazy to write a 64 bit version. But there is good
linux
photo software these days. Gimp is still 8 bits per pixel, and the 16
bit
version never seems to get released.

Dunno. I've not run anything "Apple" since the 68040 days (MacOS 7?).

However, the folks I know who run Macs tend to run Apple *throughout*.
I.e., Desktop, laptop, iPad, iPod, iPhone, etc. I suspect it is a
far more seamless experience than the MS approach -- to ANYTHING!

Apple is not without their warts too. My roommate has an iPhone which he
usually loves but when it comes time for updates he often goes into
fits. Once he couldn't update because he kept getting errors he couldn't
resolve when he tried to backup. Later he had to trade his phone in to
upgrade the OS. I think now he can't get the backups to his computer to
work at all and they are offering backups to the "cloud". But that
doesn't get you access of any kind, just the ability to restore if your
phone gets crapped on.

Yes, he loves his iPhone.... he loves to cuss it.

I've never heard anyone say anything OTHER than pejoratives re: MS!

"Windows Phone"?

"Gee, let's design an entire desktop OS completely different from
everything we've designed previously -- because we failed to anticipate
the embedded device market! So, let's make the desktop experience as
bad as the handheld one!"

:>