OT: Red States to Secede

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:39:58 +0000, John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

There are all sort of things that could and should be done if engineers
were in charge rather than economists. For example, a power law for
personal tax rather than stepped rates, and extending to negative rates.

I did a regression analysis on the US income tax tables. They fit an
exponential to about 1%, up to the max rate.

John

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:55:07 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 10:33:07 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:02:43 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:


The only rational taxation is a universal sales tax, with exemptions
for basics.

Screw the exemptions for "basics" (that's the politically easier
route, however). Give people money if they need it. The exemptions
cause a LOT of complexity with a reasonable VAT/GST type system
because of the way input tax credits have to be handled. AFAIK no
country has been able to do that (politically) at a useful tax rate.


Here in California we have exemptions from sales tax for lots of
items; they just hit a key on the cash register, or program the
barcode scanner to handle it. But sure, you could combine universal
sales tax with a negative income tax; that's even simpler, if less
politically palatable.


And I didn't mean a VAT: I meant a single visible point-of-sale sales
tax; a tax entirely on end-user consumption. Businesses would pay the
tax on things they consumed, but not on things for resale. California
does that now, too.
John

A VAT/GST is much better. Otherwise there is tax embedded in exported
goods, which is unfair to domestic companies.

How so? If there's no corporate tax and no tax on materials, there's
zero tax embedded in exports.

And there is double
taxation because businesses don't really "consume" things. It's really
simpler too.

How double? Just apply the sales tax to consumed stuff (office
supplies, furniture, whatever) and not to stuff purchased to go into
resellable products. That way, the taxes are the same whether an exec
buys a car himself or whether he drives a company car. That eliminates
a lot of boondoggles.

As a consumer:
You pay tax on everything. End of story (unless there are exemptions)
No records to keep, nothing.

Right. End of story.

So we don't need all this:

As a company (again assuming your business isn't involved with exempt
goods):

You pay tax on everything at X%.
You collect tax at X% on everything sold domestically.
You collect nothing (0%) on exported goods.
You remit (or claim a refund) of tax collected minus tax paid with
your sales tax return.

John

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that gwhite <gwhite@deadend.com> wrote
(in <41F017F8.5BEFC321@deadend.com&gt about 'OT: Red States to Secede',
on Thu, 20 Jan 2005:

Given the left's hero FDR, I can't understand the
measure of hate for Bush when the two are compared.

The whole world has moved to the left since before WW2. Except some
people. (;-)

We may be seeing the beginning of a reaction, with New Labour in UK. The
Conservative opposition is in deep trouble trying to find something to
oppose. The Liberal Democrats are to the left of New Labour, but again
not far enough to get them a big enough following.

You can see the effect with Bush and Blair closely agreeing.

This movement may have started elsewhere but I don't follow
international politics that closely.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjlarkin@highSNIPland
THIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote (in <6m60v098foeup04abbvuslgthn53an9f64@
4ax.com&gt about 'OT: Red States to Secede', on Thu, 20 Jan 2005:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 19:39:58 +0000, John Woodgate
jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:


There are all sort of things that could and should be done if engineers
were in charge rather than economists. For example, a power law for
personal tax rather than stepped rates, and extending to negative rates.


I did a regression analysis on the US income tax tables. They fit an
exponential to about 1%, up to the max rate.

Sounds good. Doesn't apply in UK. Stepped rates of 10%, 22% and 40%.

--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:03:08 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

How so? If there's no corporate tax and no tax on materials, there's
zero tax embedded in exports.

Services have to be taxed too or the numbers are not going to work
out. But they all could be exempt rather than rebating the tax, you're
right.

I don't like the artificial distinction between "materials" and things
that are not literally used up that the US/Canadian state-level tax
systems impose. It results in tax embedded in exports and needless
complexity, just so the visible rate can be lower for consumers.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[jason]

"gwhite" <gwhite@deadend.com> wrote in message
news:41F017F8.5BEFC321@deadend.com...

jason wrote:



I don't know why the left hates Bush.

Gee, where do I begin?

He lied to get us into a war.
The soldiers are not adequately supplied.
The only people who were RIGHT about what to expect in Iraq were fired or
"resigned."
The people who were WRONG about Iraq were promoted and/or given medals.
Bush has the brain of a retarded clam.
Bush and his administration condone torture.
The Bush administration lied to the 9/11 clean up crew about the air
quality.
Bush lies to the American public. Cheney lies to the American republic.
Rumsfeld lies to the American public. Rice lies to the American public.
Hmm, why does the "Left" hate Bush? Beats me.

Jesus, I can't believe engineers can be so damned stupid.


And by the way, I am not a "lefty," I am a Liberal, and damned proud of it.

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:39:08 -0600, "jason" <jpop@carrollsweb.com>
wrote:

"gwhite" <gwhite@deadend.com> wrote in message
news:41F017F8.5BEFC321@deadend.com...
jason wrote:



I don't know why the left hates Bush.

Gee, where do I begin?

He lied to get us into a war.
The soldiers are not adequately supplied.
The only people who were RIGHT about what to expect in Iraq were fired or
"resigned."
The people who were WRONG about Iraq were promoted and/or given medals.
Bush has the brain of a retarded clam.
Bush and his administration condone torture.
The Bush administration lied to the 9/11 clean up crew about the air
quality.
Bush lies to the American public. Cheney lies to the American republic.
Rumsfeld lies to the American public. Rice lies to the American public.
Hmm, why does the "Left" hate Bush? Beats me.

Jesus, I can't believe engineers can be so damned stupid.

Probably, but not as ignorant as Liberals.

And by the way, I am not a "lefty," I am a Liberal, and damned proud of it.

See I said you were ignorant ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:39:08 -0600, "jason" <jpop@carrollsweb.com>
wrote:

Bush has the brain of a retarded clam.

He has a BS from Yale and a Masters from Harvard. He got better
grades than Kerry, and wasn't expelled for cheating like Teddy
Kennedy.

Where did you go to school?

Oh, his inauguration speech today was inspired, historical. He
explained what he's trying to do, and it's magnificent. Not easy, but
noble as all getout.

Oh, my spell checker suggests "sorry" for "Kerry." Right.

John

 

[John S. Dyson]

In article <aLKdnZ4dQtmG3G3cRVn-sw@kans.com>,
"jason" <jpop@carrollsweb.com> writes:

"gwhite" <gwhite@deadend.com> wrote in message
news:41F017F8.5BEFC321@deadend.com...
jason wrote:



I don't know why the left hates Bush.

Gee, where do I begin?

He lied to get us into a war.

There is no proof that Bush lied. Please refer to a dictionary

for the definition of a lie, and you'll see that claim to be untrue.
Perhaps that untrue claim is a lie in itself (in fact, is more probable
than Bush telling lies -- because I cannot believe that you don't know
what a lie is.)

Hint: making a statement that might be incorrect is not necessarily
a lie. The same statements that Bush had made were essentially the
same as being presented by Blair/Clinton and other democrat/GOP
leaders. Even the French had effectively admitted to misbehavior
by the Iraqis, but didn't believe that the misbehavior reached
the level that would necessitate the loss of their illegal oil
for food income.

The soldiers are not adequately supplied.

Whose fault? Perhaps Clintons' ongoing undersupply of the military

was difficult to overcome? Why weren't the uparmor kits already
supplied well before Bush?

Rest of your comments elided, because it seems like they are mostly
very very easy to refute or dismiss. It is very clear that your emotions
have overwhelmed your thinking process.

John

 

[John S. Dyson]

In article <1eg0v0d1548pbdfvup5nl0mg6muph8c5eu@4ax.com>,
Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> writes:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:39:08 -0600, "jason" <jpop@carrollsweb.com
wrote:


"gwhite" <gwhite@deadend.com> wrote in message
news:41F017F8.5BEFC321@deadend.com...
jason wrote:



I don't know why the left hates Bush.

Gee, where do I begin?

He lied to get us into a war.
The soldiers are not adequately supplied.
The only people who were RIGHT about what to expect in Iraq were fired or
"resigned."
The people who were WRONG about Iraq were promoted and/or given medals.
Bush has the brain of a retarded clam.
Bush and his administration condone torture.
The Bush administration lied to the 9/11 clean up crew about the air
quality.
Bush lies to the American public. Cheney lies to the American republic.
Rumsfeld lies to the American public. Rice lies to the American public.
Hmm, why does the "Left" hate Bush? Beats me.

Jesus, I can't believe engineers can be so damned stupid.

Probably, but not as ignorant as Liberals.

Please quit implying that the lefty/liars are 'liberal'. They

tend to be much more doctorinare and intolerant than most of the
so-called conservatives (right wing like Rush Limbaugh, and centrist
like O'Reilly)!!! For an example of 'liberalism', please
refer to the attempts to suppress right wing and centrist speech
on college campuses. That sure aint' liberal, but is quite
narrow minded and intolerant (typical leftist.) BTW, those who try to
suppress left wing speech are also just as disgusting, but the centerist
and right wingers tend to be more tolerant (however disagreeing)
because of the history of being in the vocal minority... Of course,
that is less true today, where the intolerant left (most of the
left nowadays) tend to be odd curiosities, most apparently mentally
ill. The leftist/intolerant misbehavior (e.g. Stuart Smelley) are
the best salespeople away from the leftist religion.

John

 

[jason]

"John S. Dyson" <toor@iquest.net> wrote in message
news:cspnat$2ctd$1@news.iquest.net...

In article <aLKdnZ4dQtmG3G3cRVn-sw@kans.com>,
"jason" <jpop@carrollsweb.com> writes:

"gwhite" <gwhite@deadend.com> wrote in message
news:41F017F8.5BEFC321@deadend.com...
jason wrote:



I don't know why the left hates Bush.

Gee, where do I begin?

He lied to get us into a war.

There is no proof that Bush lied. Please refer to a dictionary
for the definition of a lie, and you'll see that claim to be untrue.
Perhaps that untrue claim is a lie in itself (in fact, is more probable
than Bush telling lies -- because I cannot believe that you don't know
what a lie is.)

Hint: making a statement that might be incorrect is not necessarily
a lie. The same statements that Bush had made were essentially the
same as being presented by Blair/Clinton and other democrat/GOP
leaders. Even the French had effectively admitted to misbehavior
by the Iraqis, but didn't believe that the misbehavior reached
the level that would necessitate the loss of their illegal oil
for food income.

I'm not playing your semantic games. EVERYBODY KNEW there was nothing
there!!!
The whole fucking world knew there was nothing there! Scott Ritter knew!
Shinseki knew we needed more troops. There was worldwide protests against
the Iraq war. The Pope was against the Iraq war.

And let us suppose we accept your rediculous parsing of the argument, and
assume that Bush simply stated an untruth and did not lie. Then where is the
outrage at over 1,300 American men and women who have died going to war to
disarm an immediate threat of Saddam with WMD!!! Why has nobody been held
accountable? How can we go to war on false information and then laugh about
it like Bush did at a press dinner???

The soldiers are not adequately supplied.

Whose fault? Perhaps Clintons' ongoing undersupply of the military
was difficult to overcome? Why weren't the uparmor kits already
supplied well before Bush?

Unbelievable. Clinton has been out of office for over four years, and the
humvees without armor are his fault, the troops without kevlar are his
fault, while Bush spends 40 million dollars on a 4 day party.

Rest of your comments elided, because it seems like they are mostly
very very easy to refute or dismiss. It is very clear that your emotions
have overwhelmed your thinking process.

John

Yes, I do get emotional when my country is hijacked by liars and thieves,
and men who send our troops to die in unnecessary wars and tell us lies to
send them there. I get very emotional about that. Why the hell don't you?


I am done with this thread. Congratulations on 4 more years of failure. Four
more years of mediocrity. Four more years of your demise.

and one more thing,

9/11 happened on Bush's watch!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Rich Grise]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:54:54 -0500, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:50:07 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

Simple fix: neither subsidize nor tax corporations.
John

Works for me! But who would contribute to election campaigns if there
were no money to fight over?

Well, first, we kill all the lawyers...

;-)

 

[Rich Grise]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:32:22 -0500, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:19:14 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:11:33 +0000, John Woodgate
jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjSNIPlarkin@highTHIS
landPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote (in <rlnvu0lqmbtaoe6n0fftb3kh31mdhkv0de@
4ax.com&gt about 'OT: Red States to Secede', on Thu, 20 Jan 2005:

Even simpler: if I pay taxes, and you don't, and we both receive
benefits, you are on welfare.

It sounds OK initially, but then what to make of these big corporations
that pay minute amounts in tax? How do they fit in?

They don't pay taxes. Only end consumers pay sales tax. So you only
get taxed if you spend any of your income, earned or unearned (as they
call dividends, etc.).

...Jim Thompson

Getting rid of personal income tax (and disbanding the IRS) would be
the equivalent of winning WWII in terms of improving the quality of
lives. Maybe better.

Then howcome you guys aren't voting Libertarian? That's one of the planks

of our platform, you know.

Maybe it's the unreasoning terror that's triggered by ideas like ending
the insane war on drugs.

I'm coming to the conclusion that people don't want Freedom - they want
Mommy.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Richard the Dreaded Liber]

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 16:30:04 -0800, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 17:39:08 -0600, "jason" <jpop@carrollsweb.com
wrote:

Bush has the brain of a retarded clam.

He has a BS from Yale and a Masters from Harvard. He got better
grades than Kerry, and wasn't expelled for cheating like Teddy
Kennedy.

Where did you go to school?

Oh, his inauguration speech today was inspired, historical. He
explained what he's trying to do, and it's magnificent. Not easy, but
noble as all getout.

So, are you bowing down before his altar, and giving burnt offerings?

Feh.

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:51:27 GMT, the renowned Rich Grise
<richgrise@example.net> wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 13:02:43 -0500, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 08:52:42 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 09:43:07 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 11:28:00 -0500, Chuck Harris
cf-NO-SPAM-harris@erols.com> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:

John, Don't waste your breath. Leftists just can not cope with the
concept that LESS taxes is a GOOD thing. Leftists throw up this
"corporate welfare" BS to confuse the masses... the masses who have NO
CLUE what it really is to PAY massive taxes... the masses who have NO
CLUE that it is THEY who are on welfare.

...Jim Thompson

It is really quite simple: If I pay more taxes, so you can pay less,
I am paying your way, and you are on welfare.

-Chuck

Yup. Just what I said. I'd just like to pay LESS of your way.

I pray for tax reform... but I doubt that it will ever happen... the
leftists won't allow anything that approaches fair taxation.

...Jim Thompson


The only rational taxation is a universal sales tax, with exemptions
for basics.

Screw the exemptions for "basics" (that's the politically easier
route, however). Give people money if they need it. The exemptions
cause a LOT of complexity with a reasonable VAT/GST type system
because of the way input tax credits have to be handled. AFAIK no
country has been able to do that (politically) at a useful tax rate.

That would reduce the huge disadvantage that domestic
manufacturers/employers face.

Income tax is a job-destroying machine.
John

*Replacing* IT with a GST/VAT at a reasonable rate would be nothing
short of revolutionary. Estate taxes should probably be jacked up
(make it easier to make money in this generation rather than
accumulate it over many), but that's another story.


What really needs to be repaired is the mindset that there's any
justification whatsoever for institutionalized theft.

Thanks,
Rich

The total level of taxation is a different issue, and essentially
there is no joy to be found there under any plausible scenario in the
foreseeable future.

US Federal government spending, in all major categories, *will* most
likely continue to increase at least as fast as the economy, barring
only a financial meltdown, which would hurt a lot more.

The total portion of the GDP controlled by all levels of governments
in OECD countries varies from about 1/3 (the US is at 36%) to close to
60%. The Eurozone averages out at about 49% (universal health care is
included in most OECD countries, of course, which has to be taken into
account in comparing value for taxes). BTW, the G7 country with the
biggest decrease in ALL levels of government spending over 1992-2004
is Canada (by 25% as a % of GDP). Australia managed about 10%, and the
US about 7.5% (-11% to 2000, then increasing again). Euro zone -6%, UK
-1%, Japan +13%.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Chuck Harris]

Rich Grise wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:54:54 -0500, Spehro Pefhany wrote:


On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:50:07 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:


Simple fix: neither subsidize nor tax corporations.
John

Works for me! But who would contribute to election campaigns if there
were no money to fight over?


Well, first, we kill all the lawyers...

No, I have some good friends that are lawyers. I think we should
just encourage them to find new careers.

-Chuck

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 09:42:31 GMT, Rich Grise <richgrise@example.net>
wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 15:54:54 -0500, Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Thu, 20 Jan 2005 12:50:07 -0800, the renowned John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

Simple fix: neither subsidize nor tax corporations.
John

Works for me! But who would contribute to election campaigns if there
were no money to fight over?

Well, first, we kill all the lawyers...

;-)

We always appreciate your original insights.

John

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Chuck Harris <cf-NO-SPAM-
harris@erols.com> wrote (in <brWdnUJ3LJxKuWzcRVn-oQ@rcn.net&gt about 'OT:
Red States to Secede', on Fri, 21 Jan 2005:

No, I have some good friends that are lawyers. I think we should
just encourage them to find new careers.

.... commensurate with their abilities. But there is only a limited
demand for telephone sanitizers. (;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Fri, 21 Jan 2005 08:23:36 -0800, John Larkin
<jjSNIPlarkin@highTHISlandPLEASEtechnology.XXX> wrote:

[snip]

You misread me completely. In personal matters I'm basically a
libertarian... live and let live. Just don't do anything to me and I
won't do anything to you, or tell you how to live.


But is a libertarian willing to help people who are far less well off?
Libertarianism is, after all, a hobby of the lucky and the wealthy.

The Est movement was the essence of libertarianism. It said,
essentially, "sure, for a tiny bit of consideration on my part, I
could greatly reduce your unhappiness. But screw you, it's your
problem."

John

"Libertarianism is, after all, a hobby of the lucky and the wealthy."

Huh?

I'm perfectly OK with welfare, for the truly needy, but not for bums.

I remember "Est". I went to a couple of meetings, IIRC, around 1980.
What a bunch of idiots. Almost as bad as Mensa ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Richard Henry]

"Rich Grise" <richgrise@example.net> wrote in message >

Well, first, we kill all the lawyers...

Did you hear about the guys in New York who were arrested for making jokes
about lawyers?