OT: If Ukraine and Russia make peace, who keeps the Russian occupied land?...

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Wednesday, September 13, 2023 at 11:52:29 PM UTC+10, Scott Lurndal wrote:

SteveW <st...@walker-family.me.uk> writes:
On 12/09/2023 02:00, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 12:47:49 +0100, Xeno <xeno...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

On 11/9/2023 6:44 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
If Ukraine and Russia make peace, who keeps the Russian occupied land?

Ukraine will be unlikely to agree to any peace deal whilst ever any of
Ukraine territory remains occupied by Russia and that includes territory
illegally annexed in 2014.

Ukraine used to be the USSR, they\'re just taking it back.

Russia does not equal USSR.
And, in fact, over time, the territory currently part of
Ukraine has been part of Greece, Ottoman empire et alia. The Russians
took it by force in the days of the German-born Catherine via
her toady Potemkin (after she took Russia in a coup).

Catherine got to Russia by being married off to Tsar (who had great title, but nothing else to recommend him). The coup was very much a palace coup, and Catherine did a much better job than her dim spouse could have done - and cultivated people like Voltaire, Diderot, and d\'Alembert, amongst others..

The eponymous village was in Ukraine.

Russia divested itself of Ukraine when the USSR disintegrated.

That\'s not how it worked. The Ukraine was one of the republics in the Union of the Soviet Socialist Republics, as was Russia. When the USSR fell apart they became separate countries. That wasn\'t any kind of divestment of the Ukraine by Russia, no matter how Putin kijes to think about it.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:07:51 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
<hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2023-09-12, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 23:38:13 +0100, SteveW wrote:

On 12/09/2023 02:00, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 12:47:49 +0100, Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

On 11/9/2023 6:44 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
If Ukraine and Russia make peace, who keeps the Russian occupied
land?

Ukraine will be unlikely to agree to any peace deal whilst ever any of
Ukraine territory remains occupied by Russia and that includes
territory illegally annexed in 2014.

Ukraine used to be the USSR, they\'re just taking it back.

Russia does not equal USSR.

Okay, the Russian Empire is taking it back... Maybe Poland would like
their part back too. The Ukraine has a very limited history as an actual
country.

So did the U.S. at one point.

At least the States joined by popular vote.

I believe that no-one was executed in the Revolutionary War. Probably
no-one was tortured either. Nor were cities leveled by artillery.

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 13/09/2023 15:49, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:07:51 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2023-09-12, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 23:38:13 +0100, SteveW wrote:

On 12/09/2023 02:00, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 12:47:49 +0100, Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

On 11/9/2023 6:44 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
If Ukraine and Russia make peace, who keeps the Russian occupied
land?

Ukraine will be unlikely to agree to any peace deal whilst ever any of
Ukraine territory remains occupied by Russia and that includes
territory illegally annexed in 2014.

Ukraine used to be the USSR, they\'re just taking it back.

Russia does not equal USSR.

Okay, the Russian Empire is taking it back... Maybe Poland would like
their part back too. The Ukraine has a very limited history as an actual
country.

So did the U.S. at one point.

At least the States joined by popular vote.

And seceded by popular vote, too...
I believe that no-one was executed in the Revolutionary War. Probably
no-one was tortured either. Nor were cities leveled by artillery.

^^^^^^^^^^^^
and then there was another war in which all the usual atrocities happened.


--
Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
gospel of envy.

Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Thursday, September 14, 2023 at 12:49:25 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:07:51 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
hami...@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2023-09-12, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 23:38:13 +0100, SteveW wrote:

On 12/09/2023 02:00, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 12:47:49 +0100, Xeno <xeno...@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

On 11/9/2023 6:44 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
If Ukraine and Russia make peace, who keeps the Russian occupied
land?

Ukraine will be unlikely to agree to any peace deal whilst ever any of
Ukraine territory remains occupied by Russia and that includes
territory illegally annexed in 2014.

Ukraine used to be the USSR, they\'re just taking it back.

Russia does not equal USSR.

Okay, the Russian Empire is taking it back... Maybe Poland would like
their part back too. The Ukraine has a very limited history as an actual
country.

So did the U.S. at one point.

At least the States joined by popular vote.

Of people with property. Universal suffrage was adopted a long time after 1788

> I believe that no-one was executed in the Revolutionary War.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_Hale

Any American patriot should remember him. John André, a major in the British army, got hanged as a spy. there were probably others.

> Probably no-one was tortured either.

About as likely to be accurate as your first claim.

> Nor were cities leveled by artillery.

Siege warfare wasn\'t popular around then. The artillery didn\'t have much range and wasn\'t all that accurate. Fortresses were invested, and their defenses bombarded until they were knocked flat, but there wasn\'t a lot of that done during the War of Independence.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[rbowman]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 07:49:02 -0700, John Larkin wrote:


> I believe that no-one was executed in the Revolutionary War.

Nathan Hale, John Andre... I\'m sure there were others.

> Probably no-one was tortured either.

Yeah, it was a kinder, gentler time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Prisoners_of_war_in_the_American_Revolutionary_War


Nor were cities leveled by artillery.

Not from lack of trying. When the British batteries opened fire with
heated shot during the siege of Charleston they weren\'t too concerned with
civilian deaths and property damage. At least they weren\'t flinging
corpses with trebuchets.

Between technological advances and the changes in warfare it has become
harsher. It\'s difficult to establish the point where civilians became fair
game. When Harris and Lindemann decided it was safer to bomb civilian
housing to reduce the workforce rather than go after the heavily protected
factories it was a step forward. Truman turned it into a fine art.

 

[Peeler]

On 13 Sep 2023 15:45:50 GMT, lowbrowwoman, the endlessly driveling,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


> Nathan Hale, John Andre... I\'m sure there were others.

Why wasn\'t your entire family included? Why? It would have saved everyone
from your big mouth!

--
And yet another \"cool\" line from the resident bigmouthed all-American
superhero:
\"I was working on the roof when the cat came up the ladder to see what I
was doing. Cats do not do well going down aluminum ladders.\"
MID: <k9roshF2rjdU1@mid.individual.net>

 

[Joe Gwinn]

On 13 Sep 2023 15:45:50 GMT, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:

On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 07:49:02 -0700, John Larkin wrote:


I believe that no-one was executed in the Revolutionary War.

Nathan Hale, John Andre... I\'m sure there were others.

Probably no-one was tortured either.

Yeah, it was a kinder, gentler time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/
Prisoners_of_war_in_the_American_Revolutionary_War


Nor were cities leveled by artillery.

Not from lack of trying. When the British batteries opened fire with
heated shot during the siege of Charleston they weren\'t too concerned with
civilian deaths and property damage. At least they weren\'t flinging
corpses with trebuchets.

Between technological advances and the changes in warfare it has become
harsher. It\'s difficult to establish the point where civilians became fair
game. When Harris and Lindemann decided it was safer to bomb civilian
housing to reduce the workforce rather than go after the heavily protected
factories it was a step forward. Truman turned it into a fine art.

Umm. Not exactly. In the old days, a common way to pay a successful
army was to allow it to sack the conquered city. The Sack of
Magdeburg is historic, but it was common practice since ancient times.

..<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Magdeburg#:~:text=The%20sack%20of%20Magdeburg%2C%20also,deaths%20of%20around%2020%2C000%2C%20including>

Plunder commonly included treasure and slaves, especially nubile ones.

Joe Gwinn

 

[Cindy Hamilton]

On 2023-09-13, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:07:51 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2023-09-12, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 23:38:13 +0100, SteveW wrote:

On 12/09/2023 02:00, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 12:47:49 +0100, Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

On 11/9/2023 6:44 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
If Ukraine and Russia make peace, who keeps the Russian occupied
land?

Ukraine will be unlikely to agree to any peace deal whilst ever any of
Ukraine territory remains occupied by Russia and that includes
territory illegally annexed in 2014.

Ukraine used to be the USSR, they\'re just taking it back.

Russia does not equal USSR.

Okay, the Russian Empire is taking it back... Maybe Poland would like
their part back too. The Ukraine has a very limited history as an actual
country.

So did the U.S. at one point.

At least the States joined by popular vote.

The behavior of Ukrainian citizens strongly suggests that they
favor independence.

--
Cindy Hamilton

 

[Bob F]

On 9/13/2023 10:41 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:

On 2023-09-13, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:07:51 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2023-09-12, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 23:38:13 +0100, SteveW wrote:

On 12/09/2023 02:00, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 12:47:49 +0100, Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

On 11/9/2023 6:44 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
If Ukraine and Russia make peace, who keeps the Russian occupied
land?

Ukraine will be unlikely to agree to any peace deal whilst ever any of
Ukraine territory remains occupied by Russia and that includes
territory illegally annexed in 2014.

Ukraine used to be the USSR, they\'re just taking it back.

Russia does not equal USSR.

Okay, the Russian Empire is taking it back... Maybe Poland would like
their part back too. The Ukraine has a very limited history as an actual
country.

So did the U.S. at one point.

At least the States joined by popular vote.

The behavior of Ukrainian citizens strongly suggests that they
favor independence.

Who would want to live under Putin, who considers his population as an
easy source of cannon fodder to support his ego, and not much else?

 

[Fredxx]

On 13/09/2023 19:41, Bob F wrote:

On 9/13/2023 10:41 AM, Cindy Hamilton wrote:
On 2023-09-13, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:07:51 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2023-09-12, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 23:38:13 +0100, SteveW wrote:

On 12/09/2023 02:00, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 12:47:49 +0100, Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

On 11/9/2023 6:44 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
If Ukraine and Russia make peace, who keeps the Russian occupied
land?

Ukraine will be unlikely to agree to any peace deal whilst ever
any of
Ukraine territory remains occupied by Russia and that includes
territory illegally annexed in 2014.

Ukraine used to be the USSR, they\'re just taking it back.

Russia does not equal USSR.

Okay, the Russian Empire is taking it back...  Maybe Poland would like
their part back too. The Ukraine has a very limited history as an
actual
country.

So did the U.S. at one point.

At least the States joined by popular vote.

The behavior of Ukrainian citizens strongly suggests that they
favor independence.


Who would want to live under Putin, who considers his population as an
easy source of cannon fodder to support his ego, and not much else?

He commands a great deal of support. Almost on par as Trump.

Who would want to live under Trump. As a general rule the world carries
on spinning on its axis independent of who is in charge. Would Russia
change if it has another leader?

 

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 13 Sep 2023 17:41:03 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
<hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2023-09-13, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:07:51 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2023-09-12, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 23:38:13 +0100, SteveW wrote:

On 12/09/2023 02:00, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 12:47:49 +0100, Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

On 11/9/2023 6:44 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
If Ukraine and Russia make peace, who keeps the Russian occupied
land?

Ukraine will be unlikely to agree to any peace deal whilst ever any of
Ukraine territory remains occupied by Russia and that includes
territory illegally annexed in 2014.

Ukraine used to be the USSR, they\'re just taking it back.

Russia does not equal USSR.

Okay, the Russian Empire is taking it back... Maybe Poland would like
their part back too. The Ukraine has a very limited history as an actual
country.

So did the U.S. at one point.

At least the States joined by popular vote.

The behavior of Ukrainian citizens strongly suggests that they
favor independence.

For example, even in the part of the country, the darnbach (sp?) in the
east, where Russian was the most used language, since the Russian attack
they have changed to speaking Ukrainian.

 

[T]

On 9/13/23 01:03, Colin Bignell wrote:

On 13/09/2023 02:48, T wrote:
On 9/12/23 16:32, Colin Bignell wrote:
The vast majority, 96%, were lost after you joined the war. At least
some of the 344 who died before 1942 were probably serving on British
ships.


They were on American Ships.

I was under the impression that, until the USA entered the war, Congress
required that supplies for the allies should travel only on allied
ships. However, that is from memory and might only have applied to
Lease-Lend supplies, rather than purely commercial transactions.


Here is a run down:

http://www.usmm.org/casualty.html

And it does support your numbers

I would be interested to know how 103 American ships could be attacked
without it being taken as an act of war against the USA. Were they, for
example, ignoring government advice not to enter a war zone?

It is a case of what comes out the mouth is not
what goes on behind the back.

We were trying to support Briton clandestinely
whilst keeping the public face of neutrality.
We were not in any shape prepared for war.

Keep in mind that just like in Briton, the
American Left was protecting the \"darlings
of socialist international\". It took
invading Poland and attacking Perl
Harbor to get the Left\'s attention and let
both USA and Briton start arming for war.

There was also the isolationist settlement
too. Just let Europe blow themselves up
and stay out of it.

So, we had to support Briton clandestinely,
whist seeking political cover. But it was
far from a secret from anybody, including
Hitler\'s U-Boats.

Interesting how Briton murdered our prisoners.
acted like total animals to the populace,
and paid indians to carry out total war on
civilians during our war of independence
and then a hundred or so years later
we sent our children over to die protecting
the self same monsters, twice.

Do not get me wrong, it was the right thing
to do. It just interests me the turn around.
I am told it was the trade between our two
countries and it tuned out that most of
you were not monsters and eventually we
became great friends.

You should have hung Banastre Tarleton
(Battle of Cowpens) for murdering prisoners.
I do not know the name of the monster in New
York that threw prisoners into a basement
to starve to death.

Hopefully we stay great friends for the
rest of time. You are good people (now).

 

[T]

On 9/12/23 22:11, rbowman wrote:

On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 11:40:57 +1000, Xeno wrote:

The Russian Empire no longer exists. It collapsed and disbanded in 1991.
Russia is trying to *recreate* the Russian Empire (aka Soviet Union or
USSR)

The Russian Empire collapsed in 1917. If you don\'t know the difference
between that and the CCCP perhaps you should play elsewhere.

The \"Russian Empire\" being replaced with
the \"Soviet Empire\", arguably one the two
worst tyrannies foist on humanity. (Rome
being the other one.)

It is understandable that folks get the
two empires mixed up. The replacement
was worse than the original.

 

[T]

On 9/13/23 08:34, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the
gospel of envy.

Its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.

Winston Churchill

I am steeling your Churchill quote.


Here are my two Churchill quotes:

You have enemies? Good. That means you\'ve
stood up for something, sometime in your life.
-- Winston Churchill

I contend that for a nation to try to tax
itself into prosperity is like a man standing
in a bucket and trying to lift himself up
by the handle.
--Winston Churchill

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 13/09/2023 18:41, Cindy Hamilton wrote:

On 2023-09-13, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:
On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:07:51 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2023-09-12, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 23:38:13 +0100, SteveW wrote:

On 12/09/2023 02:00, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 12:47:49 +0100, Xeno <xenolith@optusnet.com.au
wrote:

On 11/9/2023 6:44 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
If Ukraine and Russia make peace, who keeps the Russian occupied
land?

Ukraine will be unlikely to agree to any peace deal whilst ever any of
Ukraine territory remains occupied by Russia and that includes
territory illegally annexed in 2014.

Ukraine used to be the USSR, they\'re just taking it back.

Russia does not equal USSR.

Okay, the Russian Empire is taking it back... Maybe Poland would like
their part back too. The Ukraine has a very limited history as an actual
country.

So did the U.S. at one point.

At least the States joined by popular vote.

The behavior of Ukrainian citizens strongly suggests that they
favor independence.

In fact they had a referendum and even in the most Russian parts it was
still over 50% for independence.

And that\'s why Russia agreed.

--
“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn’t true; the
other is to refuse to believe what is true.”

—Soren Kierkegaard

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 13/09/2023 22:15, micky wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 13 Sep 2023 17:41:03 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2023-09-13, John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com
wrote:
On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:07:51 GMT, Cindy Hamilton
hamilton@invalid.com> wrote:

On 2023-09-12, rbowman <bowman@montana.com> wrote:
On Tue, 12 Sep 2023 23:38:13 +0100, SteveW wrote:

On 12/09/2023 02:00, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 11 Sep 2023 12:47:49 +0100, Xeno
xenolith@optusnet.com.au> wrote:

On 11/9/2023 6:44 am, Commander Kinsey wrote:
If Ukraine and Russia make peace, who keeps the
Russian occupied land?

Ukraine will be unlikely to agree to any peace deal
whilst ever any of Ukraine territory remains occupied
by Russia and that includes territory illegally
annexed in 2014.

Ukraine used to be the USSR, they\'re just taking it
back.

Russia does not equal USSR.

Okay, the Russian Empire is taking it back... Maybe Poland
would like their part back too. The Ukraine has a very
limited history as an actual country.

So did the U.S. at one point.

At least the States joined by popular vote.

The behavior of Ukrainian citizens strongly suggests that they
favor independence.

For example, even in the part of the country, the darnbach (sp?)

Donbas.

in the east, where Russian was the most used language, since the
Russian attack they have changed to speaking Ukrainian.

Well that\'s as sensible as learning to speak Welsh in Abergavenny, if
you don\'t want your house burnt down... I don\'t suppose anyone spoke
German in the UK in WW2.

So I wouldn\'t put much store by that...They will be speaking Russian in
occupied territory and Ukrainian in the rest. Its a simple matter of health.

--
The New Left are the people they warned you about.

 

[rbowman]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 21:03:58 -0700, T wrote:

You have enemies? Good. That means you\'ve stood up for something,
sometime in your life.
-- Winston Churchill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Tk9QxvZHo

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 14/09/2023 06:22, rbowman wrote:

On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 21:03:58 -0700, T wrote:

You have enemies? Good. That means you\'ve stood up for something,
sometime in your life.
-- Winston Churchill

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63Tk9QxvZHo


Oh gawd, another whiny lefty \'protest\' song...

--
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as
foolish, and by the rulers as useful.

(Seneca the Younger, 65 AD)

 

[rbowman]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2023 19:19:23 -0700, T wrote:

Keep in mind that just like in Briton, the American Left was protecting
the \"darlings of socialist international\". It took invading Poland and
attacking Perl Harbor to get the Left\'s attention and let both USA and
Briton start arming for war.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/America_First_Committee

The America First Committee cut across many lines but it was not
protecting the socialist international. The CPUSA took their marching
orders from Moscow; they were anti-interventionist when Molotov-Ribbentrop
Pact was in effect and suffered severe whiplash when Germany started
Operation Barbarossa and they had to do a 180.

The Almanac Singers had to revise their playlist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Weavers#Formation

Woody Guthrie suddenly started writing songs about destroyers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrZjJsIA1EI

That was a little different from \'Washington Breakdown\'

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6zn8TyWYCQ

\'Songs for John Doe\' was a 3 78rpm record album. The unsold albums were
destroyed when the wind shifted.

 

[T]

On 9/13/23 22:51, rbowman wrote:

The America First Committee cut across many lines but it was not
protecting the socialist international. The CPUSA took their marching
orders from Moscow; they were anti-interventionist when Molotov-Ribbentrop
Pact was in effect and suffered severe whiplash when Germany started
Operation Barbarossa and they had to do a 180.

I was commenting on there being two different
reasons. One was Leftists in love with Leftists.
This was my remark about the Left Wing Nazis
being the darlings of Socialist International.
The Left battled tooth and nail to stop rearmament.
What? A fellow Marxist being war mongers? NEVER!

And the Soviets worked with the Nazis to conquer
Poland. The Soviets (also Leftist Marxists) got
a taste of their own medicine with Barbarossa.
What? A fellow Leftist break a treaty! NEVER!

And there were also the isolationists that wanted to
just stay out of it. They also delayed rearmament.
Roosevelt did a lot of clandestine stuff to try
to get around both of them.

Poland, Perl Harbor, Barbarossa tipped the scales.