optical drive - DVD media recognition...

L

legg

Guest
Two most regularly used optical drives recently stopped
recognizing data DVD\'s that were created on these machines.
There is no issue with CD media. The affected machines
still recognize commercial \'film\' DVDs from the public library.

When attempting to recognize the media, the OS seems to
completely bog down as explorer attempts to display the
drive contents.

Once in a blue moon, explorer succeeds in displaying the
inserted disk, or even a directory on the disk - but
further attempts to access the drive result in explorer
crashing.

Nero infotool and CDroller will also sometimes report
presence and type of DVD - succesive running of tests
usually report empty drives.

After disassembling and cleaning one drive, it allowed
normal operation for a few minutes, but reverted to
previous state after disk ejection and re-insertion.

They are both HT-LG brands, but are located in completely
different PCs (PC-Chips homebrew and Lenovo ThinkCentre
refurb), with different OS (W2K - W7pro)and different
interconnection (IDE and SATA).

The Sony, TDK, Philips, Maxell DVD-R media , both blank
and previously written, are recognizable on two other,
less-frequently used machines in the lab, neither having
HT-LG hardware.

Replacing the drives with similar types did not correct
the problem.Replacement drives had other issues, which
is why they were hanging around - sticky doors etc, but
included one IDE drive purchased for this repair exercise)

All of the LG drives, original and replacements, have labels
dated before 2010. The other PC\'s that still recognize the
media have similar dates of manufacture, but are Sony or
Matsushita branded.

Using the regular suggestions to manipulate the W7 operating
system ( device manager, optical drivers, atapi drivers,
disk management, registry upper/lower limits, sfc etc )
seem to have no effect.

I\'ve not reinstalled Nero, and haven\'t (recently) reverted
to a Windows restore point.\'restoring\' didn\'t work the first
time, so I don\'t expect it to work a second time. That is a
bit of a rabbit hole.

I have ordered (by snail delivery) some non-LG drive
replacements as a last resort - but am still curious to
know if this is a more widespread issue.

Using DVD media for physical data back-up or transport
doesn\'t seem to be common these days - but I\'ve had
large USB memory go bad on me lately, too. I also back up
the OS on a USB-connected HDD.

I\'m discouraged by this experience with DVD media and
hardware, for data.

RL
 
You need to understand that the recording medium on an R or RW DVD and on a commercially printed DVD are entirely different. The one is a dye that is \'burnt\' by the laser, the other is quite literally stamped. Over time, the dye will deteriorate even by playing - which is via the laser at a lower power than when burning - and become less contrasting. At which point it becomes more difficult for the laser to read it. Not true of a stamped DVD. I have always taken the position that a DVD R or RW is a volatile storage medium, not for the ages, as it is chemical in nature.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
 
I would test the DVD player with a \"stamped\" DVD. If these also fail, I would suspect the optics that may be failing. DVDs will fail to read far sooner than CDs on the same player if the laser is starting to fail.
 
On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 08:29:34 -0700 (PDT), \"pfjw@aol.com\"
<peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

You need to understand that the recording medium on an R or RW DVD and on a commercially printed DVD are entirely different. The one is a dye that is \'burnt\' by the laser, the other is quite literally stamped. Over time, the dye will deteriorate even by playing - which is via the laser at a lower power than when burning - and become less contrasting. At which point it becomes more difficult for the laser to read it. Not true of a stamped DVD. I have always taken the position that a DVD R or RW is a volatile storage medium, not for the ages, as it is chemical in nature.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
Click to expand...

I realize that these DVD-R media have a half-life,
however - being unable to detect a blank DVD-R or
DVD-R from multiple vendors probably indicates that
the issue lies outside the media itself.

Don\'t you agree?

Strongly suspect a Windows issue - though how it could
surface in both a W2K and a W7 system, simultaneously,
is begging belief. I\'m concentrating on the W7 system
as priority, as the internet-isolated W2K system has
limited and specific duties that only seldom requires
reading from DVD data.

After 30 years, you\'d think that a Disk Operating
System could at least be reliable in operating
disks and in logging/reporting its problems.

Second suspect is laser aging - but you\'d think that
would affect writing only, not reading. Seem a lot
of internal DVD rewriters have still to be cleared
from decade-old inventory. Do lasers age wwhen in the
box?

RL
 
On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 09:38:54 -0700 (PDT), abrsvc
<dansabrservices@yahoo.com> wrote:

>I would test the DVD player with a \"stamped\" DVD. If these also fail, I would suspect the optics that may be failing. DVDs will fail to read far sooner than CDs on the same player if the laser is starting to fail.

Commercial DVDs read fine.

I had an issue at one time with the W7 unit, where
it stopped recognizing audio CDs. (CD and DVD data oK)
Got out of that one, somehow.

RL
 
Second suspect is laser aging - but you\'d think that
would affect writing only, not reading. Seem a lot
of internal DVD rewriters have still to be cleared
from decade-old inventory. Do lasers age wwhen in the
box?
Click to expand...

Laser aging- sure. But a laser ages in a non-linear way in most cases, and also the reading process is subject to \"Cliff Effect\". It is fine until it isn\'t.
The process of burning a DVD is very slow to avoid corrupting the data. This is somewhat tolerant of a weaker laser. Reading on the other hand is much faster, and so less tolerant.
You may have a confluence of causes - weaker laser, aged DVDs conspiring together. As you suggest, it may also be a software issue, but that should be an easy and specific fix (patch).

\"Aging in the box\" That would depend on what elements age. Lubricants (if any) - will age. Motor bearings will age, used or not. Anyone who has worked on clocks will tell you that if a clock sits for a very long time, it should be cleaned and (VERY CAREFULLY) lubricated before re-starting. I doubt if the electronics will age in any significant way, assuming proper wrapping and storage conditions. We are long past the days when capacitors had a definite life whether in use or not. And I suspect that the same would apply to a solid-state laser.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
 
In article <61jgif9nvasmcc1v10gg0v8u26g3gsvcqi@4ax.com>,
legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:
On Mon, 3 Aug 2020 08:29:34 -0700 (PDT), \"pfjw@aol.com\"
peterwieck33@gmail.com> wrote:

You need to understand that the recording medium on an R or RW DVD and on a commercially printed DVD are entirely different. The one is a dye that is \'burnt\' by the
laser, the other is quite literally stamped. Over time, the dye will deteriorate even by playing - which is via the laser at a lower power than when burning - and become
less contrasting. At which point it becomes more difficult for the laser to read it. Not true of a stamped DVD. I have always taken the position that a DVD R or RW is a
volatile storage medium, not for the ages, as it is chemical in nature.

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

I realize that these DVD-R media have a half-life,
however - being unable to detect a blank DVD-R or
DVD-R from multiple vendors probably indicates that
the issue lies outside the media itself.

Don\'t you agree?

Strongly suspect a Windows issue - though how it could
surface in both a W2K and a W7 system, simultaneously,
is begging belief. I\'m concentrating on the W7 system
as priority, as the internet-isolated W2K system has
limited and specific duties that only seldom requires
reading from DVD data.
Click to expand...

I\'d suggest this, to trouble-shoot: download a \"live Linux\"
distribution (there are quite a few), write the .iso file to a USB
stick, and boot it. All of them should be able to read a burned DVD
and (usually) mount the filesystem on it. Most of them come with (or
have the download capability to fetch) DVD-burning software such as
Brasero.

This would let you test the same drives (with their firmware) and the
same discs, without using any Windows software at all, thus
eliminating this one factor completely. Whether you can read the
discs or not, it\'ll give you a good idea as to whether Windows issues
are involved.

You might be running into this problem for any of several reasons:

- Dye deterioration on the DVD discs. Some dye types, and some brands
are less stable than others. Storage conditions (temperature,
humidity, and exposure to light) may matter.

- Failing laser(s) in the DVD drives.

- Dirty (or smoke-coated) lenses in the optical systems. If anyone
smokes tobacco or other herbs around those computers, this could be
a real problem... tobacco \"tar\" coating the lenses is bad juju for
the system.

All of these problems would affect \"burned\" DVDs more than pressed
ones, as the relative reflectivity differences between \"1\" and \"0\"
bits is lower, and the signal \"seen\" by the laser/photodiode system is
weaker. Back in the Olde Days, many first-generation CD
players/drives had trouble reading CD-R discs, and many couldn\'t read
CD-RW, for this same reason.
 
On Mon, 03 Aug 2020 11:03:34 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

Two most regularly used optical drives recently stopped
recognizing data DVD\'s that were created on these machines.
There is no issue with CD media. The affected machines
still recognize commercial \'film\' DVDs from the public library.

When attempting to recognize the media, the OS seems to
completely bog down as explorer attempts to display the
drive contents.

Once in a blue moon, explorer succeeds in displaying the
inserted disk, or even a directory on the disk - but
further attempts to access the drive result in explorer
crashing.

Nero infotool and CDroller will also sometimes report
presence and type of DVD - succesive running of tests
usually report empty drives.

After disassembling and cleaning one drive, it allowed
normal operation for a few minutes, but reverted to
previous state after disk ejection and re-insertion.

They are both HT-LG brands, but are located in completely
different PCs (PC-Chips homebrew and Lenovo ThinkCentre
refurb), with different OS (W2K - W7pro)and different
interconnection (IDE and SATA).

The Sony, TDK, Philips, Maxell DVD-R media , both blank
and previously written, are recognizable on two other,
less-frequently used machines in the lab, neither having
HT-LG hardware.

Replacing the drives with similar types did not correct
the problem.Replacement drives had other issues, which
is why they were hanging around - sticky doors etc, but
included one IDE drive purchased for this repair exercise)

All of the LG drives, original and replacements, have labels
dated before 2010. The other PC\'s that still recognize the
media have similar dates of manufacture, but are Sony or
Matsushita branded.

Using the regular suggestions to manipulate the W7 operating
system ( device manager, optical drivers, atapi drivers,
disk management, registry upper/lower limits, sfc etc )
seem to have no effect.

I\'ve not reinstalled Nero, and haven\'t (recently) reverted
to a Windows restore point.\'restoring\' didn\'t work the first
time, so I don\'t expect it to work a second time. That is a
bit of a rabbit hole.

I have ordered (by snail delivery) some non-LG drive
replacements as a last resort - but am still curious to
know if this is a more widespread issue.

Using DVD media for physical data back-up or transport
doesn\'t seem to be common these days - but I\'ve had
large USB memory go bad on me lately, too. I also back up
the OS on a USB-connected HDD.

I\'m discouraged by this experience with DVD media and
hardware, for data.

RL
Click to expand...

Going through the usual business - reinstalling DVD drivers
manually on W7 Lenovo desk machine. . .

I find one blank Sony DVD+R that registers in the explorer window
( for LG HT burner disk)- slowly but not actually knobbling the
system.

OK - I burn data to it (nero2015) at the slowest speed (4x).
- Nero data verification fails, post burn \'too many errors\'.
-
- The newly-written disk no longer displays in explorer
without freezing out the system.

The defective disk loads and displays normally, with the newly-
burned data on my laptop (mitsubishi dvdwriter). All 6200 files
are in their proper directory structures.

CDroller, testing 6000 files in 40 minutes, identifies some files
that are \'poorly defined\'. These are mostly text files with
file extensions used in database (.csv), CAD (gerber and drill),
and simulation (LTSpice) software.

Seems a new drive is the only option. Anyone know of one that
is a serious piece of equipment - noy intended to be replaced
sooner than the media it handles?

RL
 
On 04/08/2020 21:37, legg wrote:
The defective disk loads and displays normally, with the newly-
burned data on my laptop (mitsubishi dvdwriter). All 6200 files
are in their proper directory structures.
Click to expand...
A trick I found useful sometimes is reading the bad DVDR with the
bad drive upside down or on its side.
It is very time consuming any way :-(
 
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 22:54:21 +0200, bilou <bilou@sfr.fr> wrote:

On 04/08/2020 21:37, legg wrote:
The defective disk loads and displays normally, with the newly-
burned data on my laptop (mitsubishi dvdwriter). All 6200 files
are in their proper directory structures.
A trick I found useful sometimes is reading the bad DVDR with the
bad drive upside down or on its side.
It is very time consuming any way :-(
Click to expand...

Well, I know that works with floppies, but it\'s not really
practical with internal drives.

I\'ve got two towers that expect the optical drive to work
sideways, which they mostly do, until they don\'t. It was one of
those that developed the sticky door (before it was replaced).
You could get it going temporarily with a slim jim pressed
under a left \'bottom\' edge, when restored to horizontal, later.

RL
 
On Mon, 03 Aug 2020 11:03:34 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

Two most regularly used optical drives recently stopped
recognizing data DVD\'s that were created on these machines.
There is no issue with CD media. The affected machines
still recognize commercial \'film\' DVDs from the public library.

When attempting to recognize the media, the OS seems to
completely bog down as explorer attempts to display the
drive contents.

Once in a blue moon, explorer succeeds in displaying the
inserted disk, or even a directory on the disk - but
further attempts to access the drive result in explorer
crashing.

Nero infotool and CDroller will also sometimes report
presence and type of DVD - succesive running of tests
usually report empty drives.

After disassembling and cleaning one drive, it allowed
normal operation for a few minutes, but reverted to
previous state after disk ejection and re-insertion.

They are both HT-LG brands, but are located in completely
different PCs (PC-Chips homebrew and Lenovo ThinkCentre
refurb), with different OS (W2K - W7pro)and different
interconnection (IDE and SATA).

The Sony, TDK, Philips, Maxell DVD-R media , both blank
and previously written, are recognizable on two other,
less-frequently used machines in the lab, neither having
HT-LG hardware.

Replacing the drives with similar types did not correct
the problem.Replacement drives had other issues, which
is why they were hanging around - sticky doors etc, but
included one IDE drive purchased for this repair exercise)

All of the LG drives, original and replacements, have labels
dated before 2010. The other PC\'s that still recognize the
media have similar dates of manufacture, but are Sony or
Matsushita branded.

Using the regular suggestions to manipulate the W7 operating
system ( device manager, optical drivers, atapi drivers,
disk management, registry upper/lower limits, sfc etc )
seem to have no effect.

I\'ve not reinstalled Nero, and haven\'t (recently) reverted
to a Windows restore point.\'restoring\' didn\'t work the first
time, so I don\'t expect it to work a second time. That is a
bit of a rabbit hole.

I have ordered (by snail delivery) some non-LG drive
replacements as a last resort - but am still curious to
know if this is a more widespread issue.

Using DVD media for physical data back-up or transport
doesn\'t seem to be common these days - but I\'ve had
large USB memory go bad on me lately, too. I also back up
the OS on a USB-connected HDD.

I\'m discouraged by this experience with DVD media and
hardware, for data.

RL
Click to expand...

A new (2009) DVD R/W had no issues recognizing the old
DVD media. This was a Sony AD-7230S. With 2xHT/LG drives
sitting on the shelf with the same DVD recognition issues,
I changed mfrs with no real reason to do so.

There were a lot of these Sony drives on the market both
new and second-hand, so they\'re obviously not either rare
or particularly desirable. Seems that we\'re still cleaning
out warehoused stock from 10yrs ago.

This was the W7 SATA drive failure.

Still waiting for the replacement for the older IDE system.

RL
 
On Mon, 03 Aug 2020 11:03:34 -0400, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

<snip>
I have ordered (by snail delivery) some non-LG drive
replacements as a last resort - but am still curious to
know if this is a more widespread issue.

Using DVD media for physical data back-up or transport
doesn\'t seem to be common these days - but I\'ve had
large USB memory go bad on me lately, too. I also back up
the OS on a USB-connected HDD.

I\'m discouraged by this experience with DVD media and
hardware, for data.
Click to expand...
Final replacement for the drive on IDE interface solved
the last of the issues, on the older machine. This drive
had been replaced with a similar \'new\' HT/LG model once
already, without results. The new Sony part is datecoded
2008, \'new in box\', though it\'s obviously been rifled and
reboxed some time ago.

The Sony DRU-190A had no issues, though it had me worried
when explorer didn\'t seem to see a blank DVD. Installed
software did see them and interrogated/tested.
Labelled data DVDs were properly listed in explorer.
Perhaps the older OS didn\'t normally list blank media - my
memory fails me.

I\'m staring ar 6 duff optical drives on the shelf - all
HT/LG of the same vintage. 2008-2010. Half SATA, half IDE.

RL
 
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