Offshore manufacturing

[Adrian Jansen]

When setting up to have a unit made offshore, what arrangements do
people make about illegal copying by the manufacturer ? ie suppose we
give a manufacturer a licence and design to make and sell x units, and
he returns the sales figures as though he sells x, but in fact sells 5 *
x, how do we know, especially when the product may be sold in a third
country ?

Obviously you have to trust someone, but are there any clever ways to
ensure the manufacturer stays trustworthy ?

--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen adrianjansen at internode dot on dot net
Design Engineer J & K Micro Systems
Microcomputer solutions for industrial control
Note reply address is invalid, convert address above to machine form.

 

[Rich The Newsgropup Wacko]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:12:37 +1000, Adrian Jansen wrote:

When setting up to have a unit made offshore, what arrangements do
people make about illegal copying by the manufacturer ? ie suppose we
give a manufacturer a licence and design to make and sell x units, and
he returns the sales figures as though he sells x, but in fact sells 5 *
x, how do we know, especially when the product may be sold in a third
country ?

Obviously you have to trust someone, but are there any clever ways to
ensure the manufacturer stays trustworthy ?

No. You're fucked. Give up. There is nothing but thieves out there. Pull
up the drawbridge, and quit trying to pretend to be someone who would
presume to intrude into the realm of the monied.

Sorry.
Rich

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Adrian Jansen <adrian@qq.vv.net>
wrote (in <4222d2a0$1@duster.adelaide.on.net&gt about 'Offshore
manufacturing', on Mon, 28 Feb 2005:

Obviously you have to trust someone, but are there any clever ways to
ensure the manufacturer stays trustworthy ?

I don't know one. You could omit a custom component that the
manufacturer can't clone. That stops them selling any more.

The work-around is that the mfr. claims to have a lot of failed devices
(and will even show you some) and pleads for replacements. (;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Rene Tschaggelar]

Adrian Jansen wrote:

When setting up to have a unit made offshore, what arrangements do
people make about illegal copying by the manufacturer ? ie suppose we
give a manufacturer a licence and design to make and sell x units, and
he returns the sales figures as though he sells x, but in fact sells 5 *
x, how do we know, especially when the product may be sold in a third
country ?

Obviously you have to trust someone, but are there any clever ways to
ensure the manufacturer stays trustworthy ?

1)have a custom part in the design that you deliver.
2)load the firmware at your site afterwards
3)mount a special part at your site afterwards
4)deliver every part for the assembly and be there then.

Rene
--
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net

 

[budgie]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 10:10:36 +0000, John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Adrian Jansen <adrian@qq.vv.net
wrote (in <4222d2a0$1@duster.adelaide.on.net&gt about 'Offshore
manufacturing', on Mon, 28 Feb 2005:
Obviously you have to trust someone, but are there any clever ways to
ensure the manufacturer stays trustworthy ?

I don't know one. You could omit a custom component that the
manufacturer can't clone. That stops them selling any more.

The work-around is that the mfr. claims to have a lot of failed devices
(and will even show you some) and pleads for replacements. (;-)

The only way of addressing that is to separate the manufacture and sales
processes. Interpose a "send it back to me so I can do QC and insert the
widget" phase. That way:
(1) they can't sell more than you process.
(2) they can't report high failure rates to get more of the critical widgets.
(3) unless they can R/E the widget, there is no point in them making more than X
units.

 

[legg]

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:12:37 +1000, Adrian Jansen <adrian@qq.vv.net>
wrote:

When setting up to have a unit made offshore, what arrangements do
people make about illegal copying by the manufacturer ? ie suppose we
give a manufacturer a licence and design to make and sell x units, and
he returns the sales figures as though he sells x, but in fact sells 5 *
x, how do we know, especially when the product may be sold in a third
country ?

Obviously you have to trust someone, but are there any clever ways to
ensure the manufacturer stays trustworthy ?

Pick an established firm with a good rack record, and a lot of
customers to lose if their rep is tarnished.

Pirating is the activity of pirates.

RL

 

[Tim Shoppa]

You could omit a custom component that the
manufacturer can't clone. That stops them selling any more.

Oh, they'll sell them, then they come back to you as warranty failures.
Funny how you got 30 returned items from a customer that only bought
one...

Tim.

 

[Leon Heller]

"Adrian Jansen" <adrian@qq.vv.net> wrote in message
news:4222d2a0$1@duster.adelaide.on.net...

When setting up to have a unit made offshore, what arrangements do people
make about illegal copying by the manufacturer ? ie suppose we give a
manufacturer a licence and design to make and sell x units, and he returns
the sales figures as though he sells x, but in fact sells 5 * x, how do we
know, especially when the product may be sold in a third country ?

Obviously you have to trust someone, but are there any clever ways to
ensure the manufacturer stays trustworthy ?

There was a useful article on this topic a few months ago in EDN, IIRC.

Leon
--
Leon Heller, G1HSM
http://www.geocities.com/leon_heller

 

[Rene Tschaggelar]

Joerg wrote:

Hello Rene,

1)have a custom part in the design that you deliver.
2)load the firmware at your site afterwards
3)mount a special part at your site afterwards

Also, make sure you blow the JTAG fuse, set the boot loader password or
use whatever protection your devices on the board afford. That can
create a situation where the cost of reverse engineering may become
prohibitive.

Presupposed.

4)deliver every part for the assembly and be there then.

That can get pretty expensive.

Yes, this kind of measure is better done somewhere
locally. But it works in terms of IP protection.
The assembler just has to know SO-8 for a part and
you deliver the belt.

I propose to have a look at the production run anyway.
Whenever I was having a look I learnt a lot.

Meaning I see advantages to produce locally.

Rene

 

[Joerg]

Hello Rene,

The assembler just has to know SO-8 for a part and
you deliver the belt.

That's usually all they (should) care to know about unless you make them
do a full end test.

I propose to have a look at the production run anyway.
Whenever I was having a look I learnt a lot.

Meaning I see advantages to produce locally.

Sure. But when local biz gets taxed or regulated up to kazoo it's not
going to work. I still hope Arnold fixes some of that in CA. Most of the
stuff we design here is being produced in China.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Adrian Jansen]

Thanks for the useful comments. That gives me something to think about.
The "unique part, supplied only by us" idea sounds like a reasonably
good solution, and fits with what we want to do.

--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen adrianjansen at internode dot on dot net
Design Engineer J & K Micro Systems
Microcomputer solutions for industrial control
Note reply address is invalid, convert address above to machine form.

 

Adrian Jansen wrote:

Thanks for the useful comments. That gives me something to think
about.
The "unique part, supplied only by us" idea sounds like a reasonably
good solution, and fits with what we want to do.

--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen adrianjansen at internode dot on dot net
Design Engineer J & K Micro Systems
Microcomputer solutions for industrial control
Note reply address is invalid, convert address above to machine form.

With piracy concerns, high shipping and tariff costs, and lack of legal
enforcement in other countries, wouldn't it be easier to set up shop in
the USA, using robots to put the circuit together?

Mike

 

[budgie]

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:51:35 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On 1 Mar 2005 15:35:02 -0800, the renowned
mike-nospam@darrettenterprises.com wrote:


Adrian Jansen wrote:
Thanks for the useful comments. That gives me something to think
about.
The "unique part, supplied only by us" idea sounds like a reasonably
good solution, and fits with what we want to do.

--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen adrianjansen at internode dot on dot net
Design Engineer J & K Micro Systems
Microcomputer solutions for industrial control
Note reply address is invalid, convert address above to machine form.


With piracy concerns, high shipping and tariff costs, and lack of legal
enforcement in other countries, wouldn't it be easier to set up shop in
the USA, using robots to put the circuit together?

Mike

No.

and particularly no as the O/P is based on the east coast of Australia.

 

[Adrian Jansen]

Ken Taylor wrote:

"budgie" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:k54a21l2s9n1ekvemrp4pj2bcmg3ro4o6u@4ax.com...

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:51:35 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:


On 1 Mar 2005 15:35:02 -0800, the renowned
mike-nospam@darrettenterprises.com wrote:


Adrian Jansen wrote:

Thanks for the useful comments. That gives me something to think

about.

The "unique part, supplied only by us" idea sounds like a reasonably
good solution, and fits with what we want to do.

--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen adrianjansen at internode dot on dot net
Design Engineer J & K Micro Systems
Microcomputer solutions for industrial control
Note reply address is invalid, convert address above to machine form.


With piracy concerns, high shipping and tariff costs, and lack of legal
enforcement in other countries, wouldn't it be easier to set up shop in
the USA, using robots to put the circuit together?

Mike

No.

and particularly no as the O/P is based on the east coast of Australia.


He could use a robot in New Zealand, but I think Helen Clarke is busy at
present.

Ken

We have plenty of our own robots but yes, the idea was to move the
manufacturing to the US, mainly for ease of supply into that market.

--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen adrianjansen at internode dot on dot net
Design Engineer J & K Micro Systems
Microcomputer solutions for industrial control
Note reply address is invalid, convert address above to machine form.

 

[Ken Taylor]

"Adrian Jansen" <adrian@qq.vv.net> wrote in message
news:42263e28$1@duster.adelaide.on.net...

Ken Taylor wrote:
"budgie" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:k54a21l2s9n1ekvemrp4pj2bcmg3ro4o6u@4ax.com...

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 18:51:35 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:


On 1 Mar 2005 15:35:02 -0800, the renowned
mike-nospam@darrettenterprises.com wrote:


Adrian Jansen wrote:

Thanks for the useful comments. That gives me something to think

about.

The "unique part, supplied only by us" idea sounds like a reasonably
good solution, and fits with what we want to do.

--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen adrianjansen at internode dot on dot net
Design Engineer J & K Micro Systems
Microcomputer solutions for industrial control
Note reply address is invalid, convert address above to machine form.


With piracy concerns, high shipping and tariff costs, and lack of legal
enforcement in other countries, wouldn't it be easier to set up shop in
the USA, using robots to put the circuit together?

Mike

No.

and particularly no as the O/P is based on the east coast of Australia.


He could use a robot in New Zealand, but I think Helen Clarke is busy at
present.

Ken



We have plenty of our own robots but yes, the idea was to move the
manufacturing to the US, mainly for ease of supply into that market.

--
Regards,

Adrian Jansen adrianjansen at internode dot on dot net
Design Engineer J & K Micro Systems
Microcomputer solutions for industrial control
Note reply address is invalid, convert address above to machine form.

"Rule of Law" is a tad more established in USA than in parts of Asia, so
you're on a better thing going that way. AusTrade (or whatever it's
called these days) could give you leads to industry organizations, and now
that the NG knows that USA is the intended destination I'm sure there'll be
plenty of first-hand recommendations.

Cheers.

Ken

 

[Ken Taylor]

"Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
news:9jhc211onuml5u8ohsvj7b1jtkjt6kfjam@4ax.com...

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 11:45:23 +1300, the renowned "Ken Taylor"
ken123@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

"Rule of Law" is a tad more established in USA than in parts of Asia, so
you're on a better thing going that way. AusTrade (or whatever it's
called these days) could give you leads to industry organizations, and
now
that the NG knows that USA is the intended destination I'm sure there'll
be
plenty of first-hand recommendations.

Cheers.

Ken

Yup, although "offshore" may be technically correct in referring to
the US from your perspective, it's probably not the first situtation
that pops into our minds. ;-)



Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers:
http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers:
http://www.speff.com

Adrian (OP) may be able to help you if you want to offshore some
manufacturing and design.....

Ken