not OT : fear...

[Rich S]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 2:10:59 AM UTC, bitrex wrote:

On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote:
On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

What\'s wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
children but are afraid of life.

Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
warps prudent judgement.

I\'ve had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
masks for everything. And who wouldn\'t crank up a power supply to see
how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

I guess you get what you pay for
Interns are cheap and most don\'t last long.

Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
\"taste\" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
or they do but get really upset then don\'t hire
them. :0)

I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc,
were a rite of passage for young experimenter.
Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity.
But in today\'s highly safety-conscious society we mustn\'t
say such things :-X

Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into
software than hardware these days.

Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9 volt
to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually pays way
better, too.

Indeed, SW, and actually digital platforms are ginormous.
I can relate that finding data privacy & security folks is a challenge.

I agree with John, in a general way (but \"blowing things up\" without
further explanation can be misconstrued! - but i take his meaning).
Those early *but safe* shocks gave me courage to later build
more dangerous stuff. And with the willingness also
came the cautiousness.
Regards, Rich S

 

[server]

On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 19:06:26 -0700 (PDT), Rich S
<richsulinengineer@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

What\'s wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
children but are afraid of life.

Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
warps prudent judgement.

I\'ve had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
masks for everything. And who wouldn\'t crank up a power supply to see
how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

I guess you get what you pay for
Interns are cheap and most don\'t last long.

Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
\"taste\" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
or they do but get really upset then don\'t hire
them. :0)

\"How many other people have licked that battery today?\"

 

[Martin Brown]

On 26/07/2022 23:16, rbowman wrote:

On 07/26/2022 11:43 AM, John Larkin wrote:
I\'ve had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
masks for everything. And who wouldn\'t crank up a power supply to see
how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

On my first job there was a crusty old electrician who would test for
120 VAC by putting two fingers (on the same hand) across the terminals.
It took me a while to work up courage but I figured if he was in his
\'60s and hadn\'t killed himself...

It\'s not a big deal. The \'shock\' is just that, a surprise at a feeling
you didn\'t expect.

I had to administer first aid to a US service engineer who did the same
test for live trick on UK mains. The resulting shock threw him across
the floor turning his face ashen grey. Very much more bite at 240vac.

Warm sweet tea did the trick but I don\'t think he will ever test for
mains with a wet finger ever again. These days even using an old neon
mains testing screwdriver (as I do) is frowned upon H&S wise.

The anglepoise lamp in my first student room had a live chassis so that
screwdriver has saved me from at least one potentially serious shock. I
once found a telescope with a live chassis too, fortunately I was stood
on wooden stepladders with no dew when I noticed the tingle.

Electric shocks at height up ladders do not go well together.

Later in research one of my friends was unlucky enough to find himself
on the wrong end of a live Jesus lead - that caused serious damage to
his hand from burns before someone could find and unplug the other end.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Martin Rid]

Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> Wrote in message:r
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 3:16:31 PM UTC-7, rbowman wrote:> On 07/26/2022 11:43 AM, John Larkin wrote: > > I\'ve had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5 > > volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and > > masks for everything. And who wouldn\'t crank up a power supply to see > > how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.> On my first job there was a crusty old electrician who would test for > 120 VAC by putting two fingers (on the same hand) across the terminals. > It took me a while to work up courage but I figured if he was in his > \'60s and hadn\'t killed himself... > > It\'s not a big deal. The \'shock\' is just that, a surprise at a feeling > you didn\'t expect.I use my bare fingers to attach wires to the 400V EV battery. CHILDREN: DON\'T DO IT, USE HV GROVE. Actually, with the breaker disengaged, there is really not much risk. BTW, many auto mechanics won\'t even touch the casing of the EV battery. I had to bring it to my friend to unmount it from the car.

I had a regulator that was connected to a stack of 12v batteries
fail. It was spectacular, I remember seeing the shadow of the
person next to me on the wall. The arc current was under the trip
current of the breaker.
DC is much different than AC, never crosses zero volt.

Cheers
--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/usenet/index.html

 

[Cydrome Leader]

Ed Lee <edward.ming.lee@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 3:16:31 PM UTC-7, rbowman wrote:
On 07/26/2022 11:43 AM, John Larkin wrote:
I\'ve had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
masks for everything. And who wouldn\'t crank up a power supply to see
how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.
On my first job there was a crusty old electrician who would test for
120 VAC by putting two fingers (on the same hand) across the terminals.
It took me a while to work up courage but I figured if he was in his
\'60s and hadn\'t killed himself...

It\'s not a big deal. The \'shock\' is just that, a surprise at a feeling
you didn\'t expect.

I use my bare fingers to attach wires to the 400V EV battery. CHILDREN: DON\'T DO IT, USE HV GROVE. Actually, with the breaker disengaged, there is really not much risk. BTW, many auto mechanics won\'t even touch the casing of the EV battery. I had to bring it to my friend to unmount it from the car.

Any what did you gain by just ignoring the gloves you probably had next
to you? How many volts DC can you let go of? It won\'t take much leakage on
a 400 volt connector to ruin your day.

 

[Rich S]

On Wednesday, July 27, 2022 at 2:06:29 AM UTC, Rich S wrote:

On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

What\'s wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
children but are afraid of life.

Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
warps prudent judgement.

I\'ve had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
masks for everything. And who wouldn\'t crank up a power supply to see
how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

I guess you get what you pay for
Interns are cheap and most don\'t last long.

Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
\"taste\" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
or they do but get really upset then don\'t hire
them. :0)

[Amending Myself]
Or maybe you DO hire them, as a PCB layout
designer, or Documentation, or anything
but hands-on circuit work. Someone could be
a real star but just not comfortable with
(what they consider to be) \"overt\" risk.
Questioning their risk-aversion might limit
your possible talent pool.
Some tech companies (used to?) try to find
the right fit for someone, if he/she had talent.

 

[Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund]

On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote:

On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote:
On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

What\'s wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
children but are afraid of life.

Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
warps prudent judgement.

I\'ve had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
masks for everything. And who wouldn\'t crank up a power supply to see
how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

I guess you get what you pay for
Interns are cheap and most don\'t last long.

Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
\"taste\" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
or they do but get really upset  then don\'t hire
  them. :0)

I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc,
were a rite of passage for young experimenter.
Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity.
But in today\'s highly safety-conscious society we mustn\'t
say such things  :-X


Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into
software than hardware these days.

Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9 volt
to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually pays way
better, too.

The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and
Hardware is becoming extinct:

Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:

https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/

Grapgh showing the trend:

https://twitter.com/magicsilicon/status/1545276464567726081?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1545278290319253506%7Ctwgr%5Ebaadd480e2d52bf87ee5ecf3ee403b114571677a%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2022%2F07%2F08%2Fsemiconductor_engineer_shortage%2F

 

[a a]

On Sunday, 31 July 2022 at 00:09:41 UTC+2, Klaus Kragelund wrote:

On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote:
On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote:
On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

What\'s wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
children but are afraid of life.

Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
warps prudent judgement.

I\'ve had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
masks for everything. And who wouldn\'t crank up a power supply to see
how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating..

I guess you get what you pay for
Interns are cheap and most don\'t last long.

Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
\"taste\" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
or they do but get really upset then don\'t hire
them. :0)

I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc,
were a rite of passage for young experimenter.
Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity.
But in today\'s highly safety-conscious society we mustn\'t
say such things :-X


Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into
software than hardware these days.

Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9 volt
to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually pays way
better, too.

The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and
Hardware is becoming extinct:

Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:

https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/

Grapgh showing the trend:

https://twitter.com/magicsilicon/status/1545276464567726081?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1545278290319253506%7Ctwgr%5Ebaadd480e2d52bf87ee5ecf3ee403b114571677a%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2022%2F07%2F08%2Fsemiconductor_engineer_shortage%2F

Grapgh ???

 

[rbowman]

On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:

On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote:
On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote:
On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

What\'s wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
children but are afraid of life.

Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
warps prudent judgement.

I\'ve had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
masks for everything. And who wouldn\'t crank up a power supply to see
how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

I guess you get what you pay for
Interns are cheap and most don\'t last long.

Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
\"taste\" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
or they do but get really upset then don\'t hire
them. :0)

I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc,
were a rite of passage for young experimenter.
Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity.
But in today\'s highly safety-conscious society we mustn\'t
say such things :-X


Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into
software than hardware these days.

Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9
volt to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually
pays way better, too.


The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and
Hardware is becoming extinct:

Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:

https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/

I think the article has a valid point. I\'ve got hopes for the maker
culture but I don\'t know how many participate. Our new library has a
nicely equipped makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser
cutters and so forth. I should snoop around and see how much it is being
used. I\'ll confess that with ebooks I don\'t physically visit the library
often.

Cars have the same problem. If a budding hotrodder gets his hands on a
10 year old Civic, there isn\'t much he can do. CAI, cat-back, overdrive
pulley, and other minor stuff.

 

[Don Y]

On 7/30/2022 10:37 PM, rbowman wrote:

On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote:

The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and
Hardware is becoming extinct:

Verilog, VHDL

Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:

https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/

I think the article has a valid point.

I think you\'re ignoring the paradigm shift.

One could rewrite this:

\"For most of the history of electronics, there was a clear on-ramp for
this, and an industry that didn\'t need to sell itself because it was
inherently cool for geeks. Look at the biographies of the great names
in electronics, such as Intel co-founder Robert Noyce or the father
of the information age Claude Shannon, and you find them as teenage
geeks pulling apart, then rebuilding, then designing radios and guitar
amplifiers. The post-war generation tore down military surplus gear
to teach themselves how it worked and mine components to build their
own inventions.\"

replacing references to pulling apart (DISASSEMBLing!) then rebuilding
hardware (SOFTWARE). How many howto\'s cover hacking a serial console
onto an existing COTS product and then poking around inside to enable
features -- or even reimage the firmware.

Sadly, \"hardware types\" are likely clueless as to how these things are
done. Who do you think comes up with workarounds for the multitude of
copy protection schemes that have been deployed? Who do you think
uses the sources to FOSS products to modify (tinker) with them and
add value/functionality that isn\'t present in the original offering?

It\'s like a sculpter complaining about all the young kids taking up
PAINTING (for \"fear\" of a hammer and chisel?). A fair bit of arrogance,
there (\"What *I* know is important; what I don\'t, isn\'t!\")

Sadly, \"coders\" probably take on the greatest risk as their efforts
won\'t see success or failure for many months/years (a power supply
likely blows pretty quick!). And, most have no control over the
hardware that will host their code.

[How often do you release a hardware design to manufacturing without
having the design finished, implemented and tested? How often do you
DELAY the product release until the same can be said of the software?
Who takes up the slack, do you redesign the hardware to accommodate
the FINISHED/tested software?]

How much TEXT will the application require? DATA? Real time? What
recourse if you exceed the resources available -- will they reengineer
the hardware to fit your ACTUAL needs, /ex post factum/?

What\'s the maximum stack penetration for THIS task? In what
circumstances? How does that differ for each of the other tasks?
Have you configured them as-needed? Or, adopted a one-size-fits-all
approach? What happens to the code size if I add a single call to
printf()? How long will XXX take to execute? What sort of latency
will the user experience between his taking an action and the
device responding to it -- in a meaningful way?

If <someone> plugs your 120VAC appliance into 220VAC mains and the
power supply blows up, catches fire, etc. IT\'S THE FAULT OF THE USER!
But, if the user enters an unusual keystroke sequence and the device
crashes, IT\'S BUGGY SOFTWARE!

I\'ve got hopes for the maker culture but
I don\'t know how many participate.

I actually think software makes engineering more accessible to folks.
The problem I see is that it makes *programming* more accessible and
sidesteps the engineering aspect of software. You *design* software
just like you design hardware. You don\'t just sit down and \"write code\"
(that\'s what CODERS do!)

Our new library has a nicely equipped
makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser cutters and so forth. I
should snoop around and see how much it is being used. I\'ll confess that with
ebooks I don\'t physically visit the library often.

Damn near anyone can afford a (used) laptop. And, with it, you can learn
a multitude of languages, programming skills, styles, etc. AND ACTUALLY
CREATE \"PRODUCTS\"!

Buying a scope doesn\'t eliminate the need for a signal generator. Or, freq
counter. Or, soldering iron. Or, mantis. Or...

Where do you put all these things? Maker shops attract folks who can\'t
afford the equipment or the *space* for same in their own condos, appartments,
dorm rooms, etc. You don\'t see folks scampering for space to set up a laptop!

We have a project in which we provide students with a laptop that allows
them to develop a virtual robot and have it compete, on screen, with other,
pre-made virtual robots. They can sit in their bedrooms, libraries,
classrooms, park benches, etc. and learn how to develop algorithms to
control their \"robots\" (autonomously). They can test those algorithms
against other strategies that have been pre-delivered. They can test their
strategies against those of their friends/classmates.

We use this as a teaching platform to introduce programming AND algorithm
design to the students. It\'s not \"in a vacuum\" as you are competing with
another algorithm; if you use a sloppy implementation of the same algorithm
as your competitor, he will beat you! So, you have to manage time
resources as well as get the logic correct. We expose different aspects
of the problem space that the kids might not appreciate ahead of time which
could cause naive algorithms to fail.

So, while learning \"how to code (syntax)\", and \"how to design an algorithm\",
they also get to see examples of how their algorithms can fail due to an
inadequate understanding of the problem space. Challenge your assumptions!

At the end of the course, the students \"load\" their algorithms into
life size (5 ft) robots and watch them compete -- more interesting
than watching a red dot and a blue dot interacting in a virtual arena
on a laptop screen!

Of course, we could let each kid build a robot. But, that takes a
lot of resources, likely takes a lot of SPACE, probably can\'t be
done in the student\'s *home*, etc. And, in relative terms, they\'ll
likely not learn as much from that physical effort than from the
intellectual effort of building an *algorithm*.

Cars have the same problem. If a budding hotrodder gets his hands on a 10 year
old Civic, there isn\'t much he can do. CAI, cat-back, overdrive pulley, and
other minor stuff.

Exactly. I\'d be thrilled to have just complete schematics for a modern
car\'s ECUs. How much can I push performance/efficiency by *micromanaging*
the combustion cycle? What can I learn from watching the spark events?

I\'ve had discussions with a friend (who\'s into the pro-side of NASCAR)
about how you could tweek the vehicle\'s performance \"intelligently\"
(beyond \"managing airflow\") to give the driver one extra tool on
the track (let his mind do the high-level tradeoffs while the ECU does
the micromanagement under his direction).

Obviously, car manufacturers target an \"average\" consumer with their
designs. Imagine working WITH the *particular* consumer...

 

[rbowman]

On 07/31/2022 12:38 AM, Don Y wrote:

We have a project in which we provide students with a laptop that allows
them to develop a virtual robot and have it compete, on screen, with other,
pre-made virtual robots. They can sit in their bedrooms, libraries,
classrooms, park benches, etc. and learn how to develop algorithms to
control their \"robots\" (autonomously). They can test those algorithms
against other strategies that have been pre-delivered. They can test their
strategies against those of their friends/classmates.

How much room does a robot car chassis take up?

https://www.amazon.com/MakerFocus-Chassis-MEGA2560-MEGA1280-Microcontroller/dp/B01LYZDP9U/

It comes with 4 independent motors? What type motors are they? Can you
control them with a L298N H-bridge? How many? Do you want to control
each wheel separately or pair them? What effect does that have on
maneuverability? Do you want to go with PWM or a simple bang-bang? Would
an Arduino be sufficient for the task? Does it have sufficient i/o
capacity for other sensors? Or possibly a RPi? Or maybe multiple
Arduinos, each handling a specific task. If so, how will they communicate?

How are you going to communicate? Will one of the 433 Mhz transceivers
work? Does it have enough range for the purpose? Enough data rate or do
you want to go for one of the 2.4 Ghz versions? What sort of
communication protocol are you going to use between the two?

Are you going autonomous or do you want to control it with a joy stick?
If you\'re going with a xy joystick module, how do you handle the analog
input?

And so forth and so on. Something like that introduces both software and
design decisions. There is a lot more involved than loading an algorithm
into a 5\' tall robot that magically appears.

 

[Don Y]

On 7/31/2022 1:43 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 07/31/2022 12:38 AM, Don Y wrote:
We have a project in which we provide students with a laptop that allows
them to develop a virtual robot and have it compete, on screen, with other,
pre-made virtual robots. They can sit in their bedrooms, libraries,
classrooms, park benches, etc. and learn how to develop algorithms to
control their \"robots\" (autonomously). They can test those algorithms
against other strategies that have been pre-delivered. They can test their
strategies against those of their friends/classmates.

How much room does a robot car chassis take up?

https://www.amazon.com/MakerFocus-Chassis-MEGA2560-MEGA1280-Microcontroller/dp/B01LYZDP9U/

It comes with 4 independent motors? What type motors are they? Can you control
them with a L298N H-bridge? How many? Do you want to control each wheel
separately or pair them? What effect does that have on maneuverability? Do you
want to go with PWM or a simple bang-bang? Would an Arduino be sufficient for
the task? Does it have sufficient i/o capacity for other sensors? Or possibly a
RPi? Or maybe multiple Arduinos, each handling a specific task. If so, how will
they communicate?

How are you going to communicate? Will one of the 433 Mhz transceivers work?
Does it have enough range for the purpose? Enough data rate or do you want to
go for one of the 2.4 Ghz versions? What sort of communication protocol are you
going to use between the two?

There is no communication. The student plugs his thumb drive into the robot
and steps back. He has no need to understand how the mechanisms in the
robot work; rather, that they nominally respond as the little red dot on the
LCD screen responded to his algorithm\'s commands.

The \"5 ft robot\" is there simply to make a spectacle out of the (end of
course) tournament. You use that to drum up excitement (and community support)
for the effort. You rely on students WANTING to participate (because it is
an \"off hours\" activity... they give up some of their spare time OUT of school
in order to take on this activity). You want to ENCOURAGE students to
think of this (STEM) as fun/exciting, not just \"yet another math test\".

You want to have something that a local news station can cover to help solicit
donations from prominent community leaders/groups (because you aren\'t CHARGING
the students to participate as that would just be a deterrent).

Are you going autonomous or do you want to control it with a joy stick? If
you\'re going with a xy joystick module, how do you handle the analog input?

The whole point is to test *algorithms*, not \"cognitive skills of \'operators\'\".
So, you want to let the algorithm compete without any additional input
from the student.

There are groups that design robots for competition. *A* group designs
(and fabricates) *a* robot. And, operates it in the arena (to meet some
particular set of tasks). These groups rely heavily on the \"educator\"
for guidance in the design and fabrication. And, on having access to
a \"shop\" with sufficient tools to actually construct the robot.

Yay *team*!

But, the contributions and learning for each individual is hard to
codify. How do you *measure* the impact you\'ve had on the students
in the program? How do you correlate their performance in the
program with any changes in their performance in the \"general
curriculum\"?

[You have to be able to MEASURE the impact of your program in order
to be able to justify the expense -- to the grantor or, ultimately,
to the school district. Just because it\'s \"fun\" doesn\'t mean it
is worthy of dollars!]

And so forth and so on. Something like that introduces both software and design
decisions. There is a lot more involved than loading an algorithm into a 5\'
tall robot that magically appears.

The thumb drive is the sole means of exchanging information between
\"host systems\". E.g., if you go visit your friend and want to try
your latest robot algorithm against his, you carry your thumb drive
to his house (and plug it -- and his -- into your laptop or his laptop).

[We don\'t want the laptops to be \"general purpose laptops\". We keep
them locked down so they only have value as \"robot simulation platforms\".
This cuts the cost of supporting them down (no risk of malware, disks
being erased, additional software installed, etc.). It\'s the equivalent
of an interactive *book* -- it serves ONE purpose.]

It is a logical extension (in the minds of the students) to plug the
thumb drive into the \"robot controller\" located in the base of the
robot -- and expect the commands to control the motors instead of
the \"X,Y display cursor\".

For students with no prior coding experience, burdening them with all
these ancillary engineering issues just makes it intimidating.

\"First year\" students just learn enough about writing code to navigate
a (*randomly* generated) maze. This is an activity that they can
personally relate to -- even if just dragging a pencil through a
print copy of a maze (\"keep the wall on the left of your pencil and
just keep moving; notice the path it traverses?\").

This also takes the \"stress\" of a one-on-one competition out of the
equation -- you just TIME their performance (assuming they are able to
complete the maze as you would obviously include structures that
defeat/complicate common algorithms).

\"Second year\" students learn to interact with a *dynamic* environment
(a maze is static) -- \"where is my opponent? why is he shooting at me?
how should I respond?\"

\"Third year\" students have a finer-grained set of \"opcodes\" that they
can execute so have more control over how they spend resources. E.g.,
computing the distance and angle to an opponent takes longer than
moving out of the way -- so, an opponent can leverage that liability
on your part to move out of the way before you can get a fix on him.
MEMORY gives you some compensating leverage as you can make educated
guesses as to where he MIGHT have moved, given that making a turn
(in place) costs more than moving forward.

They also deal with non-ideal mechanisms. E.g., why didn\'t the
robot move EXACTLY one unit to the west? How do we compensate
for this? How do we determine the NEED for compensation?

[earlier classes relied on the \"robot operating system\" and
\"arena dynamics\" to ensure \"MOVE WEST 1\" gave exactly one
unit of displacement so the students don\'t have to address
those real-world issues. We always deal with discrete time
operations -- my turn, your turn -- instead of a continuous
process. This helps minimize any effects of physical robot
performance from biasing the results (if your mechanism is
slower, then it will just take a little bit longer for your
robot to complete its move -- but your opponent won\'t be
able to benefit from this \"deficiency\")]

If there is some sign of \"success\" (increased interest in STEM,
improved academic performance, increased DEMAND for the program,
etc.) then there is a chance for followup grants (or public
funding) to perpetuate/enhance/expand the program.

Our goal isn\'t to teach them any specific \"language\" (ROBOL?).
but, rather, to get them thinking analytically about the sorts
of problems that they might encounter if they pursued a career
in STEM (how do you determine the range to an adversary? how
do you determine the proper angle of elevation of gun turret
to target that adversary? how...)

 

[server]

On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 00:09:37 +0200, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund
<klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote:
On 7/26/2022 10:06 PM, Rich S wrote:
On Tuesday, July 26, 2022 at 6:38:36 PM UTC, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 26 Jul 2022 14:11:00 -0400, bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:

On 7/26/2022 1:43 PM, John Larkin wrote:

https://www.studyfinds.org/fear-for-safety-every-day/

What\'s wrong with kids these days? Most have been super-protected
children but are afraid of life.

Engineers have to THINK, blow things up, take calculated risks. Fear
warps prudent judgement.

I\'ve had interns that were afraid to touch a board powered from 5
volts, or handle a 12 volt battery. And wanted eye protection and
masks for everything. And who wouldn\'t crank up a power supply to see
how much an electrolytic cap would leak past abs max voltage rating.

I guess you get what you pay for
Interns are cheap and most don\'t last long.

Maybe during the interview, you ask them to
\"taste\" the top of an 9V battery. If they refuse,
or they do but get really upset  then don\'t hire
  them. :0)

I think getting shocked, blowing fuses, etc,
were a rite of passage for young experimenter.
Getting of visceral sense of energy, feel what is electricity.
But in today\'s highly safety-conscious society we mustn\'t
say such things  :-X


Pretty sure I recall people here complaining more kids were going into
software than hardware these days.

Might have something to do with that nobody asks you to suck on a 9 volt
to get your first job in that field. And that first job usually pays way
better, too.


The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and
Hardware is becoming extinct:

Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:

https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/

Grapgh showing the trend:

https://twitter.com/magicsilicon/status/1545276464567726081?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1545278290319253506%7Ctwgr%5Ebaadd480e2d52bf87ee5ecf3ee403b114571677a%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theregister.com%2F2022%2F07%2F08%2Fsemiconductor_engineer_shortage%2F

Nice links. I\'ve noticed that increasing trend, kids with ee degrees
who know basically nothing about electricity, except they are afraid
of it.

So a good product line would have difficult analog i/o circuits,
usuallly backed up with digital signal processing in an FPGA an/or a
uP. SOC chips do both.

The people who architect the digital parts of a product still need to
understand signals-and-systems and control theory, even if they don\'t
code it themselves.

A good product needs good packaging and thermals and a clean human
interface too, more stuff the kids can\'t do.

I took two semisters of thermo in college, some time ago, and it was
all about enthalopy and steam tables and such nonsense. No discussion
about cooling electronics.

 

[server]

On Sat, 30 Jul 2022 23:38:22 -0700, Don Y
<blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

On 7/30/2022 10:37 PM, rbowman wrote:
On 07/30/2022 04:09 PM, Klaus Vestergaard Kragelund wrote:
On 27/07/2022 04.10, bitrex wrote:

The engineers graduating predominately in software engineering, and
Hardware is becoming extinct:

Verilog, VHDL

Still typing, not drawing.

Engineers on the brink of extinction threaten entire tech ecosystems:

https://www.theregister.com/2022/07/18/electrical_engineers_extinction/

I think the article has a valid point.

I think you\'re ignoring the paradigm shift.

One could rewrite this:

\"For most of the history of electronics, there was a clear on-ramp for
this, and an industry that didn\'t need to sell itself because it was
inherently cool for geeks. Look at the biographies of the great names
in electronics, such as Intel co-founder Robert Noyce or the father
of the information age Claude Shannon, and you find them as teenage
geeks pulling apart, then rebuilding, then designing radios and guitar
amplifiers. The post-war generation tore down military surplus gear
to teach themselves how it worked and mine components to build their
own inventions.\"

replacing references to pulling apart (DISASSEMBLing!) then rebuilding
hardware (SOFTWARE). How many howto\'s cover hacking a serial console
onto an existing COTS product and then poking around inside to enable
features -- or even reimage the firmware.

Sadly, \"hardware types\" are likely clueless as to how these things are
done. Who do you think comes up with workarounds for the multitude of
copy protection schemes that have been deployed? Who do you think
uses the sources to FOSS products to modify (tinker) with them and
add value/functionality that isn\'t present in the original offering?

It\'s like a sculpter complaining about all the young kids taking up
PAINTING (for \"fear\" of a hammer and chisel?). A fair bit of arrogance,
there (\"What *I* know is important; what I don\'t, isn\'t!\")

Sadly, \"coders\" probably take on the greatest risk as their efforts
won\'t see success or failure for many months/years (a power supply
likely blows pretty quick!). And, most have no control over the
hardware that will host their code.

[How often do you release a hardware design to manufacturing without
having the design finished, implemented and tested?

Never. Released products are supposed to work. First time.



How often do you

DELAY the product release until the same can be said of the software?
Who takes up the slack, do you redesign the hardware to accommodate
the FINISHED/tested software?]

Design the hardware and software together. Of course, the software is
finished last, but by weeks, not years.

How much TEXT will the application require? DATA? Real time? What
recourse if you exceed the resources available -- will they reengineer
the hardware to fit your ACTUAL needs, /ex post factum/?

What\'s the maximum stack penetration for THIS task? In what
circumstances? How does that differ for each of the other tasks?
Have you configured them as-needed? Or, adopted a one-size-fits-all
approach? What happens to the code size if I add a single call to
printf()? How long will XXX take to execute? What sort of latency
will the user experience between his taking an action and the
device responding to it -- in a meaningful way?

If <someone> plugs your 120VAC appliance into 220VAC mains and the
power supply blows up, catches fire, etc. IT\'S THE FAULT OF THE USER!
But, if the user enters an unusual keystroke sequence and the device
crashes, IT\'S BUGGY SOFTWARE!

I\'ve got hopes for the maker culture but
I don\'t know how many participate.

A lot of maker stuff is robotics, which starts with an Arduino or
something so is mostly a coding project.

I actually think software makes engineering more accessible to folks.
The problem I see is that it makes *programming* more accessible and
sidesteps the engineering aspect of software. You *design* software
just like you design hardware. You don\'t just sit down and \"write code\"
(that\'s what CODERS do!)

Our new library has a nicely equipped
makerspace with several printers, scanners, laser cutters and so forth. I
should snoop around and see how much it is being used. I\'ll confess that with
ebooks I don\'t physically visit the library often.

Damn near anyone can afford a (used) laptop. And, with it, you can learn
a multitude of languages, programming skills, styles, etc. AND ACTUALLY
CREATE \"PRODUCTS\"!

Buying a scope doesn\'t eliminate the need for a signal generator. Or, freq
counter. Or, soldering iron. Or, mantis. Or...

Nowadays one can set up a decent electronics bench for way under
$1000. A good scope used to cost more than a Chevrolet.

Where do you put all these things? Maker shops attract folks who can\'t
afford the equipment or the *space* for same in their own condos, appartments,
dorm rooms, etc. You don\'t see folks scampering for space to set up a laptop!

We have a project in which we provide students with a laptop that allows
them to develop a virtual robot and have it compete, on screen, with other,
pre-made virtual robots. They can sit in their bedrooms, libraries,
classrooms, park benches, etc. and learn how to develop algorithms to
control their \"robots\" (autonomously). They can test those algorithms
against other strategies that have been pre-delivered. They can test their
strategies against those of their friends/classmates.

We use this as a teaching platform to introduce programming AND algorithm
design to the students. It\'s not \"in a vacuum\" as you are competing with
another algorithm; if you use a sloppy implementation of the same algorithm
as your competitor, he will beat you! So, you have to manage time
resources as well as get the logic correct. We expose different aspects
of the problem space that the kids might not appreciate ahead of time which
could cause naive algorithms to fail.

Few coders know what a state machine is. They write hairballs, like
people used to design asynchronous logic.

 

[rbowman]

On 07/31/2022 04:31 AM, Don Y wrote:

If there is some sign of \"success\" (increased interest in STEM,
improved academic performance, increased DEMAND for the program,
etc.) then there is a chance for followup grants (or public
funding) to perpetuate/enhance/expand the program.

Perhaps. What age group is this aimed at? I still think a kid that
cobbled together a semi-autonomous robot/drone to annoy the family cat
would have an edge if (s)he showed up at Boston Dynamics someday looking
for a job. Extra points for a camera feed into FPV googles.

Somebody has to understand the Nuts & Volts aspects of real world
mechanisms and you won\'t get there with programming alone. Perhaps I\'m
nostalgic. The first half of my career involved making real world stuff
happen. The second half has mostly been pixel pushing with the exception
of the occasional need to read from a GPS receiver stream to determine
where the ambulance or firetruck is.

 

[rbowman]

On 07/31/2022 09:09 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

Nice links. I\'ve noticed that increasing trend, kids with ee degrees
who know basically nothing about electricity, except they are afraid
of it.

Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff
happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was
almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the
power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they
were afraid of them.

 

[rbowman]

On 07/31/2022 09:29 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

A lot of maker stuff is robotics, which starts with an Arduino or
something so is mostly a coding project.

True, but it still has a link to the real world, even if it\'s only
adapting ArduPilot.

 

[Don Y]

On 7/31/2022 11:27 AM, rbowman wrote:

On 07/31/2022 04:31 AM, Don Y wrote:
If there is some sign of \"success\" (increased interest in STEM,
improved academic performance, increased DEMAND for the program,
etc.) then there is a chance for followup grants (or public
funding) to perpetuate/enhance/expand the program.

Perhaps. What age group is this aimed at? I still think a kid that cobbled
together a semi-autonomous robot/drone to annoy the family cat would have an
edge if (s)he showed up at Boston Dynamics someday looking for a job. Extra
points for a camera feed into FPV googles.

We\'re targeting the \"junior high\" crowd -- 11 - 13yo. The thinking being
that you want to get them \"pointed\" in a STEM direction before they start
their high school education (which, in many places, requires students to choose
a business vs. college vs. vocational path for their curriculum -- prior to
that, everyone is largely treated the same)

Somebody has to understand the Nuts & Volts aspects of real world mechanisms
and you won\'t get there with programming alone.

I\'m building the mechanisms, compilers, virtual arena, curriculum, etc. As
well as setting up mechanisms to \"mass produce\" the \"per student\" items (only
need a couple of \"5 ft robots\" as they are only used in the tournaments).

If a *real*, supported program arises from these efforts, it will acquire
administrative bloat, as expected. But, my involvement will be over long
before that (I\'m not fond of \"long term relationships\" with projects :> )

Perhaps I\'m nostalgic. The
first half of my career involved making real world stuff happen. The second
half has mostly been pixel pushing with the exception of the occasional need to
read from a GPS receiver stream to determine where the ambulance or firetruck is.

For me, it has been similar. Deeply embedded devices throughout. But,
slowly moving up the complexity (cost) scale and into higher volume devices
(I currently price in 100K quantities).

Early designs ran on 4 and 8 bit hardware with scores of BYTES of RAM
available, cycle times on the order of a microsecond or slower. Presently,
a couple hundred 64b quad core GHz processors (Cortex A53) each with half
a gig of RAM, internetworked to work as a composite unit.

[This will likely change before I finish all of the software; why *settle* on
hardware before the software is done? Hardware is considerably cheaper than
software so why skimp?!]

E.g., my current RTOS does things that \"big machines\" can\'t do -- and at
bargain basement prices! But, is still \"appliance\" oriented (though the
appliances are now \"system components\" instead of dumb little islands).
No \"graphic workstation\" aspect.

 

[Ralph Mowery]

In article <jko0b1Fmb9hU1@mid.individual.net>, bowman@montana.com
says...

Different era but when I was a IEEE member most of the interesting stuff
happened in the Boston chapter. My home chapter in New Hampshire was
almost all classic electrical engineers working for Public Service, the
power company. They basically knew nothing about computers except they
were afraid of them.

It is amazing to me how about 10 years can make a difference. I am 72
and a friend is 82. He was an electronics engineer with a 4 year degree
and worked in the Bell Labs and Western Electric. He is stuck in the
vacuum tube era. Does not like to use a computer and fills out his tax
by hand. I just went to a 2 year tech school for electronic
engineering. A few years after school the home computers came out. My
first was a TRS80 model 3. While I may not be great with computers now
I do use them all the time. About 2 years go I got into the Arduino
world and taught myself how to get around with one.

 

[server]

On Sun, 31 Jul 2022 12:42:55 -0600, rbowman <bowman@montana.com>
wrote:

On 07/31/2022 09:29 AM, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
A lot of maker stuff is robotics, which starts with an Arduino or
something so is mostly a coding project.



True, but it still has a link to the real world, even if it\'s only
adapting ArduPilot.

But seldom real electronic design. Maybe copy a relay driver or
something.