Magamp oscillator

[Phil Hobbs]

On 11/11/2015 01:52 PM, Bruce S wrote:

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 11/11/2015 12:29 PM, Bruce S wrote:

The F/2 signal is merely an artifact of the startup transient. The
circuit does not generate a continuous F/2 signal.

I invite you to read the paper I linked, about how to optimize a
circuit that you appear to be claiming is impossible.

Because that one is behind a paywall, I've posted a several-page
excerpt from the ARRL VHF Handbook, First Ed. (1965) about how paramps
work and how to build them. 'taint rocket surgery.

http://electrooptical.net/www/sed/ARRLparamps.pdf

Parametric amplifiers are well-known. The paper you reference talks about
a down converter that requires a signal input, a pump signal, and the
output. That requires two input signals to generate the lower output
frequency, similar to a mixer.

They do not have a single varactor and inductor with a single input
frequency as shown in Jeroen's circuit.

I don't understand your statement that I claim the circuit is impossible.
Of course you can run anything in LTspice. You don't have to include
realistic stray capacitances and impedances. That doesn't mean it will
work on the bench.

The circuit I posted shows the F/2 signal dies out in a few cycles when
you include realistic ESR and stray capacitances.

Please post a circuit showing how to optimize a single varactor and
inductor as in Jeroen's circuit to produce a sub-multiple of a single
input signal.

LMGTFY. "Degenerate parametric amplifier" varactor

Result #2:
<https://smartech.gatech.edu/bitstream/handle/1853/43613/Gray_Blake_R_201205_phd.pdf>

See Figure 23 on P. 66 for an interesting degenerate paramp circuit, and
Section 2.3.2 starting on P. 30 for discussion.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:10:45 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:45:13 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:23:26 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 23:02:39 +0100, jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 10/11/15 21:53, legg wrote:
On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:16:51 +0100, jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 09/11/15 13:08, Phil Hobbs wrote:
The paper I linked to (paywall unfortunately) talks about optimizing
frequency halvers based on varactors and schottkys.

All you need is a nonlinear capacitance, which all diodes have, and
low enough loss.
[...]


OK, I give in. Here is a simple circuit that generates a strong and
persistent f/2 from an input at frequency f.

Jeroen Belleman

Check your source impedance/current. Is it a fair trade?

RL


Not the point. The argument was about using parametric effects to
make oscillators.

Come to think of it, I posted about another such thing, in an
argument over using mains-frequency driven magnet coils to sustain
a pendulum swinging at a ~1s period. That was a parametric
oscillator too.

Jeroen Belleman

It's not gain.

RL

Sure it is. The pendulum will swing forever, as long as the 60 Hz pump
is there, overcoming frictional losses.

I don't see any gain. Wout = Win * ?

The active element of an oscillator, fed from a power supply, adds
enough energy to overcome losses in the resonator.

A parametrically pumped resonator does that. The words that you use
don't change the reality. If you define an oscillator as not having a
gain element, then it doesn't for you.




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 11/11/2015 02:18 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 11/11/2015 01:52 PM, Bruce S wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 11/11/2015 12:29 PM, Bruce S wrote:

The F/2 signal is merely an artifact of the startup transient. The
circuit does not generate a continuous F/2 signal.

I invite you to read the paper I linked, about how to optimize a
circuit that you appear to be claiming is impossible.

Because that one is behind a paywall, I've posted a several-page
excerpt from the ARRL VHF Handbook, First Ed. (1965) about how paramps
work and how to build them. 'taint rocket surgery.

http://electrooptical.net/www/sed/ARRLparamps.pdf

Parametric amplifiers are well-known. The paper you reference talks about
a down converter that requires a signal input, a pump signal, and the
output. That requires two input signals to generate the lower output
frequency, similar to a mixer.

They do not have a single varactor and inductor with a single input
frequency as shown in Jeroen's circuit.

I don't understand your statement that I claim the circuit is impossible.
Of course you can run anything in LTspice. You don't have to include
realistic stray capacitances and impedances. That doesn't mean it will
work on the bench.

The circuit I posted shows the F/2 signal dies out in a few cycles when
you include realistic ESR and stray capacitances.

Please post a circuit showing how to optimize a single varactor and
inductor as in Jeroen's circuit to produce a sub-multiple of a single
input signal.

LMGTFY. "Degenerate parametric amplifier" varactor

Result #2:
https://smartech.gatech.edu/bitstream/handle/1853/43613/Gray_Blake_R_201205_phd.pdf


See Figure 23 on P. 66 for an interesting degenerate paramp circuit, and
Section 2.3.2 starting on P. 30 for discussion.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

And this one works down to a Q of 10, and works well at a Q of 19 (as
shown).

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

===============
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FLAG 416 304 0
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SYMATTR InstName D1
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WINDOW 0 24 64 Left 2
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SYMATTR Value SINE(5 10 3meg 1u)
SYMBOL res 496 176 R0
SYMATTR InstName R2
SYMATTR Value 5R
TEXT 40 88 Left 2 !.tran 100u


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

 

[Bruce S]

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 11/11/2015 01:52 PM, Bruce S wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 11/11/2015 12:29 PM, Bruce S wrote:

The F/2 signal is merely an artifact of the startup transient. The
circuit does not generate a continuous F/2 signal.

I invite you to read the paper I linked, about how to optimize a
circuit that you appear to be claiming is impossible.

Because that one is behind a paywall, I've posted a several-page
excerpt from the ARRL VHF Handbook, First Ed. (1965) about how
paramps work and how to build them. 'taint rocket surgery.

http://electrooptical.net/www/sed/ARRLparamps.pdf

Parametric amplifiers are well-known. The paper you reference talks
about a down converter that requires a signal input, a pump signal,
and the output. That requires two input signals to generate the lower
output frequency, similar to a mixer.

They do not have a single varactor and inductor with a single input
frequency as shown in Jeroen's circuit.

I don't understand your statement that I claim the circuit is
impossible. Of course you can run anything in LTspice. You don't have
to include realistic stray capacitances and impedances. That doesn't
mean it will work on the bench.

The circuit I posted shows the F/2 signal dies out in a few cycles
when you include realistic ESR and stray capacitances.

Please post a circuit showing how to optimize a single varactor and
inductor as in Jeroen's circuit to produce a sub-multiple of a single
input signal.

LMGTFY. "Degenerate parametric amplifier" varactor

Result #2:
https://smartech.gatech.edu/bitstream/handle/1853/43613/Gray_Blake_R_2
01205_phd.pdf

See Figure 23 on P. 66 for an interesting degenerate paramp circuit,
and Section 2.3.2 starting on P. 30 for discussion.

I don't know why you include his thesis. He is talking about standard
parametric upconverters using two input signals, similar to a mixer.
These are well-known and understood.

We are talking about frequency halver using a single input frequency. I
refer you to Jeroen or Legg's circuits.

I am waiting for a list of commercial vendors of frequency halvers that
you said could be bought with no problem. I am not talking about a
standard parametric down converter that requires a pump signal.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 14:38:33 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 11/11/2015 02:18 PM, Phil Hobbs wrote:
On 11/11/2015 01:52 PM, Bruce S wrote:
Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 11/11/2015 12:29 PM, Bruce S wrote:

The F/2 signal is merely an artifact of the startup transient. The
circuit does not generate a continuous F/2 signal.

I invite you to read the paper I linked, about how to optimize a
circuit that you appear to be claiming is impossible.

Because that one is behind a paywall, I've posted a several-page
excerpt from the ARRL VHF Handbook, First Ed. (1965) about how paramps
work and how to build them. 'taint rocket surgery.

http://electrooptical.net/www/sed/ARRLparamps.pdf

Parametric amplifiers are well-known. The paper you reference talks about
a down converter that requires a signal input, a pump signal, and the
output. That requires two input signals to generate the lower output
frequency, similar to a mixer.

They do not have a single varactor and inductor with a single input
frequency as shown in Jeroen's circuit.

I don't understand your statement that I claim the circuit is impossible.
Of course you can run anything in LTspice. You don't have to include
realistic stray capacitances and impedances. That doesn't mean it will
work on the bench.

The circuit I posted shows the F/2 signal dies out in a few cycles when
you include realistic ESR and stray capacitances.

Please post a circuit showing how to optimize a single varactor and
inductor as in Jeroen's circuit to produce a sub-multiple of a single
input signal.

LMGTFY. "Degenerate parametric amplifier" varactor

Result #2:
https://smartech.gatech.edu/bitstream/handle/1853/43613/Gray_Blake_R_201205_phd.pdf


See Figure 23 on P. 66 for an interesting degenerate paramp circuit, and
Section 2.3.2 starting on P. 30 for discussion.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


And this one works down to a Q of 10, and works well at a Q of 19 (as
shown).

Cheers

That does have DC current in the diodes, as do some of the other
circuits posted here. There may be something else going on, some SRD
effect maybe. Especially in the divide by 2 or 3 circuits that output
the occasional big spike.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Bruce S]

Phil Hobbs <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

And this one works down to a Q of 10, and works well at a Q of 19 (as
shown).

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Thanks! Now we are talking. I had come across several dual varactor
frequency halvers using microstrip transmission lines at GHz frequencies.

Your circuit moves this down to a lower frequency where standard components
can be used.

Note that ordinary diodes won't work. It needs the varactors. And it needs
two of them, not just one like Jeroen and Legg's circuits.

It works only at half the input frequency. It won't work at F/3 or F/4.

Now the trick will be to find the phase noise. If it can divide the input
frequency with lower phase noise than a regular d-flop, it could have some
significant application in my work.

Single varactor or diode circuits : Out.
Hobbs Halver : In.

Thanks.

 

[krw]

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:38:26 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:10:45 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:45:13 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:23:26 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 23:02:39 +0100, jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 10/11/15 21:53, legg wrote:
On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:16:51 +0100, jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 09/11/15 13:08, Phil Hobbs wrote:
The paper I linked to (paywall unfortunately) talks about optimizing
frequency halvers based on varactors and schottkys.

All you need is a nonlinear capacitance, which all diodes have, and
low enough loss.
[...]


OK, I give in. Here is a simple circuit that generates a strong and
persistent f/2 from an input at frequency f.

Jeroen Belleman

Check your source impedance/current. Is it a fair trade?

RL


Not the point. The argument was about using parametric effects to
make oscillators.

Come to think of it, I posted about another such thing, in an
argument over using mains-frequency driven magnet coils to sustain
a pendulum swinging at a ~1s period. That was a parametric
oscillator too.

Jeroen Belleman

It's not gain.

RL

Sure it is. The pendulum will swing forever, as long as the 60 Hz pump
is there, overcoming frictional losses.

I don't see any gain. Wout = Win * ?

The active element of an oscillator, fed from a power supply, adds
enough energy to overcome losses in the resonator.

OK, there is no feedback and no gain.

A parametrically pumped resonator does that. The words that you use
don't change the reality. If you define an oscillator as not having a
gain element, then it doesn't for you.

It doesn't. Words mean things.

 

[krw]

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:05:45 -0500, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 11/11/2015 07:03 AM, krw wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:01:54 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:46:10 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:23:26 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 23:02:39 +0100, jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 10/11/15 21:53, legg wrote:
On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:16:51 +0100, jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 09/11/15 13:08, Phil Hobbs wrote:
The paper I linked to (paywall unfortunately) talks about optimizing
frequency halvers based on varactors and schottkys.

All you need is a nonlinear capacitance, which all diodes have, and
low enough loss.
[...]


OK, I give in. Here is a simple circuit that generates a strong and
persistent f/2 from an input at frequency f.

Jeroen Belleman

Check your source impedance/current. Is it a fair trade?

RL


Not the point. The argument was about using parametric effects to
make oscillators.

Come to think of it, I posted about another such thing, in an
argument over using mains-frequency driven magnet coils to sustain
a pendulum swinging at a ~1s period. That was a parametric
oscillator too.

Jeroen Belleman

It's not gain.

It's not an oscillator, either.

The 60 Hz pump trick adds energy to the resonant device, the pendulum,
just as a transistor (or a varicap pump) adds energy to an LC. Adding
energy keeps the oscillation from dying out.

A pumped resonator is an oscillator. As a bonus, the parametric
oscillator is phase-locked to the pump.

You obviously consider the pendulum an oscillator but I think you're
alone. I see it as nothing more than a tank. There is no
amplification or feedback. What's the transfer equation?


You don't think that something that oscillates is an oscillator?

Well...

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:17:28 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:38:26 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:10:45 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:45:13 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:23:26 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 23:02:39 +0100, jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 10/11/15 21:53, legg wrote:
On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:16:51 +0100, jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 09/11/15 13:08, Phil Hobbs wrote:
The paper I linked to (paywall unfortunately) talks about optimizing
frequency halvers based on varactors and schottkys.

All you need is a nonlinear capacitance, which all diodes have, and
low enough loss.
[...]


OK, I give in. Here is a simple circuit that generates a strong and
persistent f/2 from an input at frequency f.

Jeroen Belleman

Check your source impedance/current. Is it a fair trade?

RL


Not the point. The argument was about using parametric effects to
make oscillators.

Come to think of it, I posted about another such thing, in an
argument over using mains-frequency driven magnet coils to sustain
a pendulum swinging at a ~1s period. That was a parametric
oscillator too.

Jeroen Belleman

It's not gain.

RL

Sure it is. The pendulum will swing forever, as long as the 60 Hz pump
is there, overcoming frictional losses.

I don't see any gain. Wout = Win * ?

The active element of an oscillator, fed from a power supply, adds
enough energy to overcome losses in the resonator.

OK, there is no feedback and no gain.

The active element certainly has gain. The oscillator itself has no
definable gain because it has no input.

A parametrically pumped resonator does that. The words that you use
don't change the reality. If you define an oscillator as not having a
gain element, then it doesn't for you.

It doesn't. Words mean things.

Yes, and you can play with them endlessly.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[legg]

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:03:15 GMT, Bruce S <nope@lst.com> wrote:

<snip>

In Legg's circuit, as soon as you add realistic ESR and stray capacitance
across the inductor, the F/2 signal disappears

This is a joke version of the circuit offered by Jeroen. It uses a
generic rectifier with low Cj.

Realistic source impedance in the 'pump' is enough to kill it.

Aren't models great?

RL

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:18:21 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:05:45 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 11/11/2015 07:03 AM, krw wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:01:54 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:46:10 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:23:26 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 23:02:39 +0100, jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 10/11/15 21:53, legg wrote:
On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:16:51 +0100, jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 09/11/15 13:08, Phil Hobbs wrote:
The paper I linked to (paywall unfortunately) talks about optimizing
frequency halvers based on varactors and schottkys.

All you need is a nonlinear capacitance, which all diodes have, and
low enough loss.
[...]


OK, I give in. Here is a simple circuit that generates a strong and
persistent f/2 from an input at frequency f.

Jeroen Belleman

Check your source impedance/current. Is it a fair trade?

RL


Not the point. The argument was about using parametric effects to
make oscillators.

Come to think of it, I posted about another such thing, in an
argument over using mains-frequency driven magnet coils to sustain
a pendulum swinging at a ~1s period. That was a parametric
oscillator too.

Jeroen Belleman

It's not gain.

It's not an oscillator, either.

The 60 Hz pump trick adds energy to the resonant device, the pendulum,
just as a transistor (or a varicap pump) adds energy to an LC. Adding
energy keeps the oscillation from dying out.

A pumped resonator is an oscillator. As a bonus, the parametric
oscillator is phase-locked to the pump.

You obviously consider the pendulum an oscillator but I think you're
alone. I see it as nothing more than a tank. There is no
amplification or feedback. What's the transfer equation?


You don't think that something that oscillates is an oscillator?

Well...

We're not alone. Wiki thinks that a pendulum is an oscillator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator#Simple_harmonic_oscillator

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator#Parametric_oscillators


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Bruce S]

Bruce S <nope@lst.com> wrote:

Thanks! Now we are talking. I had come across several dual varactor
frequency halvers using microstrip transmission lines at GHz
frequencies.

Your circuit moves this down to a lower frequency where standard
components can be used.

Note that ordinary diodes won't work. It needs the varactors. And it
needs two of them, not just one like Jeroen and Legg's circuits.

It works only at half the input frequency. It won't work at F/3 or
F/4.

Now the trick will be to find the phase noise. If it can divide the
input frequency with lower phase noise than a regular d-flop, it could
have some significant application in my work.

Single varactor or diode circuits : Out.
Hobbs Halver : In.

Thanks.

Unfortunately, I found that silicon varactors are quite noisy at
microwave frequencies. GaAs are quieter but expensive. This probably
kills the dual varactor divider, but this piece of information has a
direct bearing on using varactors in vco's at microwave frequencies. It
has probably saved me a great deal of work and wasted time and money, so
it was well worth the search.

 

[legg]

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:38:17 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:18:21 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:05:45 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 11/11/2015 07:03 AM, krw wrote:
snip.

You don't think that something that oscillates is an oscillator?

Well...

We're not alone. Wiki thinks that a pendulum is an oscillator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator#Simple_harmonic_oscillator

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator#Parametric_oscillators

It is common knowledge in electronics; that oscillators don't.

RL

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:01:04 GMT) it happened Bruce S
<nope@lst.com> wrote in <XnsA54F98C9ABC45idtokenpost@69.16.179.23>:

I am waiting for a list of commercial vendors of frequency halvers that
you said could be bought with no problem.

flipflops...
Or did you mean something else?

;-)

(I take no side on this, but am curious)

I am not talking about a
standard parametric down converter that requires a pump signal.

flipflops




BTW there are other ways, old organs had neons.
These guys talk about using solid state diodes named DIAC:
http://http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=87511.0www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=87511.0

Never tried that, but also a 2 terminal device.

There is more I am sure.

 

[George Herold]

On Wednesday, November 11, 2015 at 7:38:23 PM UTC-5, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:18:21 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 13:05:45 -0500, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 11/11/2015 07:03 AM, krw wrote:
On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 20:01:54 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:46:10 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:23:26 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 23:02:39 +0100, jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 10/11/15 21:53, legg wrote:
On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:16:51 +0100, jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 09/11/15 13:08, Phil Hobbs wrote:
The paper I linked to (paywall unfortunately) talks about optimizing
frequency halvers based on varactors and schottkys.

All you need is a nonlinear capacitance, which all diodes have, and
low enough loss.
[...]


OK, I give in. Here is a simple circuit that generates a strong and
persistent f/2 from an input at frequency f.

Jeroen Belleman

Check your source impedance/current. Is it a fair trade?

RL


Not the point. The argument was about using parametric effects to
make oscillators.

Come to think of it, I posted about another such thing, in an
argument over using mains-frequency driven magnet coils to sustain
a pendulum swinging at a ~1s period. That was a parametric
oscillator too.

Jeroen Belleman

It's not gain.

It's not an oscillator, either.

The 60 Hz pump trick adds energy to the resonant device, the pendulum,
just as a transistor (or a varicap pump) adds energy to an LC. Adding
energy keeps the oscillation from dying out.

A pumped resonator is an oscillator. As a bonus, the parametric
oscillator is phase-locked to the pump.

You obviously consider the pendulum an oscillator but I think you're
alone. I see it as nothing more than a tank. There is no
amplification or feedback. What's the transfer equation?


You don't think that something that oscillates is an oscillator?

Well...

We're not alone. Wiki thinks that a pendulum is an oscillator.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscillation

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator#Simple_harmonic_oscillator

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_oscillator#Parametric_oscillators

Have you ever tried pumping up a swing by standing on the
seat and just moving your center of mass up and down?
You need a bit of motion for it to work.. after which you
are going like gang busters in no time.
Careful not to fall off!
(I'm still a kid at heart.)

George H.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[mixed nuts]

On 11/12/2015 2:44 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:01:04 GMT) it happened Bruce S
nope@lst.com> wrote in <XnsA54F98C9ABC45idtokenpost@69.16.179.23>:

I am waiting for a list of commercial vendors of frequency halvers that
you said could be bought with no problem.

flipflops...
Or did you mean something else?

;-)

(I take no side on this, but am curious)

I am not talking about a
standard parametric down converter that requires a pump signal.

flipflops



BTW there are other ways, old organs had neons.
These guys talk about using solid state diodes named DIAC:
http://http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=87511.0www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=87511.0

Never tried that, but also a 2 terminal device.

There is more I am sure.

Magamp Flipflop!!

--
Grizzly H.

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 12 Nov 2015 06:36:37 -0500) it happened muesly
<melopsitticus@undulatus.budgie> wrote in <n21tk5$cjr$1@speranza.aioe.org>:

On 11/12/2015 2:44 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:01:04 GMT) it happened Bruce S
nope@lst.com> wrote in <XnsA54F98C9ABC45idtokenpost@69.16.179.23>:

I am waiting for a list of commercial vendors of frequency halvers that
you said could be bought with no problem.

flipflops...
Or did you mean something else?

;-)

(I take no side on this, but am curious)

I am not talking about a
standard parametric down converter that requires a pump signal.

flipflops



BTW there are other ways, old organs had neons.
These guys talk about using solid state diodes named DIAC:
http://http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=87511.0www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=87511.0

Never tried that, but also a 2 terminal device.

There is more I am sure.


Magamp Flipflop!!

There exists relays that you can set with a pulse to one state or the other (bipolar).
Sort of a set-reset flipflop.
Long time ago I made an oscillator for Christmas lights with a relay and a capacitor,
bended the contacts a bit to get the right on-off time.

If it must be a solid state diode, I wonder if you can use photoelectric effect (change in reverse conductance diode) and some galvanometer vane
that intercepts the light to make an oscillator (without mechanical contacts).

 

[mixed nuts]

On 11/12/2015 8:03 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:

On a sunny day (Thu, 12 Nov 2015 06:36:37 -0500) it happened muesly
melopsitticus@undulatus.budgie> wrote in
n21tk5$cjr$1@speranza.aioe.org>:
On 11/12/2015 2:44 AM, Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Wed, 11 Nov 2015 20:01:04 GMT) it happened Bruce
S <nope@lst.com> wrote in
XnsA54F98C9ABC45idtokenpost@69.16.179.23>:

I am waiting for a list of commercial vendors of frequency
halvers that you said could be bought with no problem.

flipflops... Or did you mean something else?

;-)

(I take no side on this, but am curious)

I am not talking about a standard parametric down converter
that requires a pump signal.

flipflops



BTW there are other ways, old organs had neons. These guys talk
about using solid state diodes named DIAC:
http://http://www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=87511.0www.diystompboxes.com/smfforum/index.php?topic=87511.0

Never tried that, but also a 2 terminal device.

There is more I am sure.

Magamp Flipflop!!

There exists relays that you can set with a pulse to one state or the
other (bipolar). Sort of a set-reset flipflop. Long time ago I made
an oscillator for Christmas lights with a relay and a capacitor,
bended the contacts a bit to get the right on-off time.

If it must be a solid state diode, I wonder if you can use
photoelectric effect (change in reverse conductance diode) and some
galvanometer vane that intercepts the light to make an oscillator
(without mechanical contacts).

There are solar powered knick knacks, some of which involve an
oscillating vane covering a photovoltaic device.

Google "solar powered knick knack"

--
Grizzly H.

 

[krw]

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 16:27:43 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 19:17:28 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Wed, 11 Nov 2015 11:38:26 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 22:10:45 -0500, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 18:45:13 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 21:23:26 -0500, legg <legg@nospam.magma.ca> wrote:

On Tue, 10 Nov 2015 23:02:39 +0100, jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 10/11/15 21:53, legg wrote:
On Mon, 09 Nov 2015 23:16:51 +0100, jeroen Belleman
jeroen@nospam.please> wrote:

On 09/11/15 13:08, Phil Hobbs wrote:
The paper I linked to (paywall unfortunately) talks about optimizing
frequency halvers based on varactors and schottkys.

All you need is a nonlinear capacitance, which all diodes have, and
low enough loss.
[...]


OK, I give in. Here is a simple circuit that generates a strong and
persistent f/2 from an input at frequency f.

Jeroen Belleman

Check your source impedance/current. Is it a fair trade?

RL


Not the point. The argument was about using parametric effects to
make oscillators.

Come to think of it, I posted about another such thing, in an
argument over using mains-frequency driven magnet coils to sustain
a pendulum swinging at a ~1s period. That was a parametric
oscillator too.

Jeroen Belleman

It's not gain.

RL

Sure it is. The pendulum will swing forever, as long as the 60 Hz pump
is there, overcoming frictional losses.

I don't see any gain. Wout = Win * ?

The active element of an oscillator, fed from a power supply, adds
enough energy to overcome losses in the resonator.

OK, there is no feedback and no gain.

The active element certainly has gain. The oscillator itself has no
definable gain because it has no input.


A parametrically pumped resonator does that. The words that you use
don't change the reality. If you define an oscillator as not having a
gain element, then it doesn't for you.

It doesn't. Words mean things.

Yes, and you can play with them endlessly.

That's when they lose meaning. See: leftist (doublespeak)

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Thu, 12 Nov 2015 11:02:45 -0500) it happened muesly
<melopsitticus@undulatus.budgie> wrote in <n22d74$hk5$1@speranza.aioe.org>:

There are solar powered knick knacks, some of which involve an
oscillating vane covering a photovoltaic device.

Google "solar powered knick knack"

Cool
How 'bout this:
http://www.baco-army-goods.nl/solar-kakkerlak.html
(
Translation:
Solar powered cockroach:
When the sun shines on the back of this cockroach it starts to dance..
it sits quiet in the shadow)