Magamp oscillator

On Tuesday, November 3, 2015 at 1:03:19 PM UTC-5, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
legg wrote:

I challenge you to find the word 'oscillate' or 'oscillator' in any
text devoted to magnetic amplifiers or saturable inductor circuits.

You don't need to challenge me, I have exactly the same
experience after nontrivial amount of googling. There's
nothing about it. Which is the reason I asked here, the
people inhabiting this newsgroup know a lot about all
kinds of crazy things.

Best regards, Piotr
Click to expand...

Does this have a use? I would think you could
make a bang-bang oscillator but you'd need a switch or two.

George H.
 
On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 06:52:11 -0800 (PST), tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

On Tuesday, 3 November 2015 14:31:10 UTC, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
legg wrote:

Magnetic amplifiers are conventionally effective in an AC environment
- the power source is already 'oscillating'.

Hence my question, whether it would be possible to build an all-magnetic
circuit.

Best regards, Piotr

so derive your ac with a spinning magnet/coil.
Click to expand...

That's already an oscillator! Done!




--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
 
In article <n1ast3$rgn$1@node1.news.atman.pl>, peter.pan@neverland.mil
says...
legg wrote:

I challenge you to find the word 'oscillate' or 'oscillator' in any
text devoted to magnetic amplifiers or saturable inductor circuits.

You don't need to challenge me, I have exactly the same
experience after nontrivial amount of googling. There's
nothing about it. Which is the reason I asked here, the
people inhabiting this newsgroup know a lot about all
kinds of crazy things.

Best regards, Piotr
Click to expand...

I suppose if you had an ideal C and L in parallel and had
the CAP precharged when connecting them, while in a ideal
invironment it would keep ringing to the end of days.

Jamie
 
On 2015-11-03, Piotr Wyderski <peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote:
Is it at all possible to build an oscillator entirely from
non-linear magnetics (OK, solid state diodes are allowed)?

Best regards, Piotr
Click to expand...

mag amps require an AC supply to exhibit amplification, so if you
allow an AC supply then yes it's possible.

I think the ring generators used to generate ring voltage for phone
exchanges used to work that way, being some sort of phase-locked
oscillator. dividing 60Hz to 20Hz or 50Hz to 16.66' Hz.


--
\_(ツ)_
 
On a sunny day (Tue, 3 Nov 2015 16:30:15 +0100) it happened Piotr Wyderski
<peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote in <n1aju7$i6k$1@node1.news.atman.pl>:

Jan Panteltje wrote:

DC motor...

And, in fact, it is a correct answer. Yes, it can be done that way.
Now try without movables or argue it's impossible. :)
Click to expand...

I already told ye,
'solid state diode' -> tunnel diode.
If you do not know 'tunnel diode' then look up Esaki diode perhaps.
An LC oscillator can be made with 1 inductor resonating on its own winding capacitance
if you are strict and do not allow capacitors, and some resistor (you
will also need those in magnetic amplifiers).
So then you are already done.
If you MUST use transductors, then use the tunnel diode generated AC to power some, and feedback,
for a gain > 1 and the correct phase that will oscillate too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunnel_diode

Unless you want to change the rules when playing, and forbid these diodes...
Even than be it powered by AC or DC, ANY amplifier needs a power source,
magnetic amplifiers too.

There is no problem.
 
On Wednesday, November 4, 2015 at 12:55:42 AM UTC-8, piglet wrote:
On 03/11/2015 10:45, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
Is it at all possible to build an oscillator entirely from
non-linear magnetics (OK, solid state diodes are allowed)?

There is such a thing as the "parametric transformer" about which I know
nothing but ...
Click to expand...

Magnetic amplifiers are in the general class of 'parametric amplifiers'; I think
some of the ferroresonant tricks were given names such as "parametric
transformer", but one would have to search a lot of old sales brochures to be sure.
 
George Herold wrote:

> Does this have a use?

I don't think so, the question is out of pure curiosity.
As one of the other posters has already noticed, it would
not be better than a transistor-based oscillator, and not
even smaller. Since the smallest reasonable oscillator is
probably an ATTiny in SOT23-6...

I am currently playing with magamps and hence the question.

Best regards, Piotr
 
Jan Panteltje wrote:

I already told ye,
'solid state diode' -> tunnel diode.
If you do not know 'tunnel diode' then look up Esaki diode perhaps.
Click to expand...

I know of tunnel diodes and I like the idea.
The available ones are low-power, but that can be amplified.

Best regards, Piotr
 
On 03/11/2015 15:54, John Larkin wrote:
You can also make an amplifier or an oscillator using varicap and
rectifier diodes, but it also needs an AC pump.

Since nobody has done what you suggest in about 200 years of
tinkering, I suspect it can't be done.
Click to expand...

I recall seeing a late 1950s "all diode audio amplifier" circuit, it was
class-D pwm and used only 2 terminal active devices. As well as regular
rectifier diodes it used 4 layer diodes as relaxation oscilators!

piglet
 
On 03/11/2015 10:45, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
Is it at all possible to build an oscillator entirely from
non-linear magnetics (OK, solid state diodes are allowed)?

Best regards, Piotr
Click to expand...

There is such a thing as the "parametric transformer" about which I know
nothing but assuming it works like a varactor diode parametric amplifier
then I suppose it could be made to oscillate, I guess it needs a higher
frequency pump to provide the power source?

piglet
 
On 11/3/2015 8:40 PM, George Herold wrote:
On Tuesday, November 3, 2015 at 1:03:19 PM UTC-5, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
legg wrote:

I challenge you to find the word 'oscillate' or 'oscillator' in any
text devoted to magnetic amplifiers or saturable inductor circuits.

You don't need to challenge me, I have exactly the same
experience after nontrivial amount of googling. There's
nothing about it. Which is the reason I asked here, the
people inhabiting this newsgroup know a lot about all
kinds of crazy things.

Best regards, Piotr

Does this have a use? I would think you could
make a bang-bang oscillator but you'd need a switch or two.

George H.
Click to expand...
Just in case that was to me, I think it was just and experiment
to see how low he could go on B+ and still make an oscillator.
He started with making a very high input impedance transformer for
crystal radio use, and that led to this. (I think)
He has a site, at the bottom is a list of projects, you will find
the transformer project in that list.
> http://www.crystal-radio.eu/index.html

Mikek
 
On Tuesday, November 3, 2015 at 9:31:10 AM UTC-5, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
legg wrote:

Magnetic amplifiers are conventionally effective in an AC environment
- the power source is already 'oscillating'.

Hence my question, whether it would be possible to build an all-magnetic
circuit.

Best regards, Piotr
Click to expand...

I think you could make an oscillator using a mag amp for gain. But if you use say 60 hz power, the highest frequency that the oscillator could run at would be about 6 hz.

Dan
 
Piotr Wyderski wrote:
Is it at all possible to build an oscillator entirely from
non-linear magnetics (OK, solid state diodes are allowed)?

Best regards, Piotr
The telephone ringing generator is such a beast.
Click to expand...
 
Jan Panteltje wrote:
On a sunny day (Tue, 3 Nov 2015 11:45:33 +0100) it happened Piotr Wyderski
peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote in<n1a38d$sbh$3@node1.news.atman.pl>:

Is it at all possible to build an oscillator entirely from
non-linear magnetics (OK, solid state diodes are allowed)?

Best regards, Piotr

Transductors.. have gain, so why not?

Solid state diode -> tunnel diode, not much else needed.
Click to expand...
The telephone ringing generator used inductors and capacitors; both
of those are solid state (no gas, no vacuum).
 
Piotr Wyderski wrote:
tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

so derive your ac with a spinning magnet/coil.

Yes, an Alexanderson alternator would be an option. :)
But how about a circuit without any moving parts. Doable?

Best regards, Piotr


As i said, Ma Bell did it..
Click to expand...
 
John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 15:53:56 +0100, Piotr Wyderski
peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote:

tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

so derive your ac with a spinning magnet/coil.

Yes, an Alexanderson alternator would be an option. :)
But how about a circuit without any moving parts. Doable?

Best regards, Piotr


If you mean a DC powered circuit that oscillates using only passive
parts and diodes, no relays or such, I've never seen it done. Except
tunnel or some other negative-resistance diode.
Click to expand...
BUT you have...the ring generator in the telephone,designed and made
by the millions by Ma Bell.
 
John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 16:19:34 +0100, Piotr Wyderski
peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

If you mean a DC powered circuit that oscillates using only passive
parts and diodes, no relays or such, I've never seen it done.

I'm not sure if you can call a magnetic amplifier a passive part.
It can exhibit admirable power gain, but needs to be powered by AC,
for example:

http://sparkbangbuzz.com/mag-audio-amp/mag-audio-amp.htm

The guy claims it has the gain of 2000. So recently, I have
started to wonder if you can use such a device as a DC-powered
oscillator. I agree, the answer "yes" would be a surprise, but
maybe it is "yes" indeed?

Best regards, Piotr

You can also make an amplifier or an oscillator using varicap and
rectifier diodes, but it also needs an AC pump.

Since nobody has done what you suggest in about 200 years of
tinkering, I suspect it can't be done.



And the bee cannot fly.
Click to expand...
 
On Wednesday, 4 November 2015 21:37:04 UTC, dca...@krl.org wrote:
On Tuesday, November 3, 2015 at 9:31:10 AM UTC-5, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
legg wrote:

Magnetic amplifiers are conventionally effective in an AC environment
- the power source is already 'oscillating'.

Hence my question, whether it would be possible to build an all-magnetic
circuit.

I think you could make an oscillator using a mag amp for gain. But if you use say 60 hz power, the highest frequency that the oscillator could run at would be about 6 hz.
Click to expand...

Feed the 60Hz to an LC & get 600 out of it. Oh, via diodes. BTDT by accident.


NT
 
On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 08:49:10 -0800, Robert Baer
<robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 16:19:34 +0100, Piotr Wyderski
peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

If you mean a DC powered circuit that oscillates using only passive
parts and diodes, no relays or such, I've never seen it done.

I'm not sure if you can call a magnetic amplifier a passive part.
It can exhibit admirable power gain, but needs to be powered by AC,
for example:

http://sparkbangbuzz.com/mag-audio-amp/mag-audio-amp.htm

The guy claims it has the gain of 2000. So recently, I have
started to wonder if you can use such a device as a DC-powered
oscillator. I agree, the answer "yes" would be a surprise, but
maybe it is "yes" indeed?

Best regards, Piotr

You can also make an amplifier or an oscillator using varicap and
rectifier diodes, but it also needs an AC pump.

Since nobody has done what you suggest in about 200 years of
tinkering, I suspect it can't be done.



And the bee cannot fly.
Click to expand...

Some things are actually impossible.

Bees can obviously fly. What idiot decided that they can't?

If you can design an oscillator that meets Piotr's requirements, we'd
love to see it.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
 
On Wed, 04 Nov 2015 08:47:53 -0800, Robert Baer
<robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 15:53:56 +0100, Piotr Wyderski
peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote:

tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

so derive your ac with a spinning magnet/coil.

Yes, an Alexanderson alternator would be an option. :)
But how about a circuit without any moving parts. Doable?

Best regards, Piotr


If you mean a DC powered circuit that oscillates using only passive
parts and diodes, no relays or such, I've never seen it done. Except
tunnel or some other negative-resistance diode.


BUT you have...the ring generator in the telephone,designed and made
by the millions by Ma Bell.
Click to expand...

How does that work?


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com
 
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