Magamp oscillator

P

Piotr Wyderski

Guest
Is it at all possible to build an oscillator entirely from
non-linear magnetics (OK, solid state diodes are allowed)?

Best regards, Piotr
 
On Tuesday, 3 November 2015 14:31:10 UTC, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
legg wrote:

Magnetic amplifiers are conventionally effective in an AC environment
- the power source is already 'oscillating'.

Hence my question, whether it would be possible to build an all-magnetic
circuit.

Best regards, Piotr
Click to expand...

so derive your ac with a spinning magnet/coil.


NT
 
On a sunny day (Tue, 3 Nov 2015 11:45:33 +0100) it happened Piotr Wyderski
<peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote in <n1a38d$sbh$3@node1.news.atman.pl>:

Is it at all possible to build an oscillator entirely from
non-linear magnetics (OK, solid state diodes are allowed)?

Best regards, Piotr
Click to expand...

Transductors.. have gain, so why not?

Solid state diode -> tunnel diode, not much else needed.
 
On Tuesday, 3 November 2015 14:54:00 UTC, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
nt wrote:

so derive your ac with a spinning magnet/coil.

Yes, an Alexanderson alternator would be an option. :)
But how about a circuit without any moving parts. Doable?
Click to expand...

Just use a mains transformer.

If you must run it off dc for some reason, thermal devices can oscillate to produce ac - getting the frequency up will be fun, but just about doable.

I don't know whether you'd consider an arc as a moving part, they can oscillate.


NT
 
On Tuesday, 3 November 2015 15:07:54 UTC, John Larkin wrote:

If you mean a DC powered circuit that oscillates using only passive
parts and diodes, no relays or such, I've never seen it done. Except
tunnel or some other negative-resistance diode.
Click to expand...

If it can oscillate it exhibits gain. If it exhibits gain it's active.


NT
 
On Tuesday, 3 November 2015 18:03:19 UTC, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
legg wrote:

I challenge you to find the word 'oscillate' or 'oscillator' in any
text devoted to magnetic amplifiers or saturable inductor circuits.

You don't need to challenge me, I have exactly the same
experience after nontrivial amount of googling. There's
nothing about it. Which is the reason I asked here, the
people inhabiting this newsgroup know a lot about all
kinds of crazy things.
Click to expand...

If you've got gain and time delay, you can have an oscillator. I very much expect the reason no-one does it is that it's about as practical as mounting a gun on top of your head and trying to fight a battle. Possible yes, but sensible no, there are far better options.


NT
 
On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 11:45:33 +0100, Piotr Wyderski
<peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote:

Is it at all possible to build an oscillator entirely from
non-linear magnetics (OK, solid state diodes are allowed)?

Best regards, Piotr
Click to expand...

Magnetic amplifiers are conventionally effective in an AC environment
- the power source is already 'oscillating'. Such a circuit can be
made to be unstable to oscillate around the original conditions.

With a DC supply, you'd need the initial transient application of
power to 'start' the circuit, which, from a theoretical point of view,
is cheating. If forced to stop cold, it would not restart oscillation
without temporary removal or reapplication of power.

The suggestion of a tunnel diode is one that introduces an external
'starting' oscillator. Remove the magnetics and it will still
oscillate. There may be other ways to externally induce a magnetic
circuit to oscillate from a static DC condition. In some environments
this might be satisfactory.

RL
 
legg wrote:

Magnetic amplifiers are conventionally effective in an AC environment
- the power source is already 'oscillating'.
Click to expand...

Hence my question, whether it would be possible to build an all-magnetic
circuit.

Best regards, Piotr
 
tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

> so derive your ac with a spinning magnet/coil.

Yes, an Alexanderson alternator would be an option. :)
But how about a circuit without any moving parts. Doable?

Best regards, Piotr
 
On Tuesday, November 3, 2015 at 2:45:41 AM UTC-8, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
Is it at all possible to build an oscillator entirely from
non-linear magnetics (OK, solid state diodes are allowed)?
Click to expand...

Maybe, if you can find something with an "s" or "n"-shape knee in its reluctance curve. Metamaterial perhaps?


Mark L. Fergerson
 
On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 15:53:56 +0100, Piotr Wyderski
<peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote:

tabbypurr@gmail.com wrote:

so derive your ac with a spinning magnet/coil.

Yes, an Alexanderson alternator would be an option. :)
But how about a circuit without any moving parts. Doable?

Best regards, Piotr
Click to expand...

If you mean a DC powered circuit that oscillates using only passive
parts and diodes, no relays or such, I've never seen it done. Except
tunnel or some other negative-resistance diode.
 
John Larkin wrote:

If you mean a DC powered circuit that oscillates using only passive
parts and diodes, no relays or such, I've never seen it done.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure if you can call a magnetic amplifier a passive part.
It can exhibit admirable power gain, but needs to be powered by AC,
for example:

http://sparkbangbuzz.com/mag-audio-amp/mag-audio-amp.htm

The guy claims it has the gain of 2000. So recently, I have
started to wonder if you can use such a device as a DC-powered
oscillator. I agree, the answer "yes" would be a surprise, but
maybe it is "yes" indeed?

Best regards, Piotr
 
On a sunny day (Tue, 3 Nov 2015 15:31:04 +0100) it happened Piotr Wyderski
<peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote in <n1agf9$dki$1@node1.news.atman.pl>:

legg wrote:

Magnetic amplifiers are conventionally effective in an AC environment
- the power source is already 'oscillating'.

Hence my question, whether it would be possible to build an all-magnetic
circuit.
Click to expand...

DC motor...
:)
 
Jan Panteltje wrote:

> DC motor...

And, in fact, it is a correct answer. Yes, it can be done that way.
Now try without movables or argue it's impossible. :)

Best regards, Piotr
 
On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 16:19:34 +0100, Piotr Wyderski
<peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

If you mean a DC powered circuit that oscillates using only passive
parts and diodes, no relays or such, I've never seen it done.

I'm not sure if you can call a magnetic amplifier a passive part.
It can exhibit admirable power gain, but needs to be powered by AC,
for example:

http://sparkbangbuzz.com/mag-audio-amp/mag-audio-amp.htm

The guy claims it has the gain of 2000. So recently, I have
started to wonder if you can use such a device as a DC-powered
oscillator. I agree, the answer "yes" would be a surprise, but
maybe it is "yes" indeed?

Best regards, Piotr
Click to expand...

You can also make an amplifier or an oscillator using varicap and
rectifier diodes, but it also needs an AC pump.

Since nobody has done what you suggest in about 200 years of
tinkering, I suspect it can't be done.
 
On Tuesday, November 3, 2015 at 6:52:18 AM UTC-8, tabb...@gmail.com wrote:

[on feasibility of building an oscillator with magnetic amplifiers]

> so derive your ac with a spinning magnet/coil.

I think a DC motor has a commutator, so there's a switch involved.
Easier, would be a common doorbell buzzer (again, magnetically
operated switch).

It's necessary to have feedback; a magamp has a DC control
input, so you need to get from AC output, through some kind
of rectifier, with a phase shift, to the input.
I nominate resistive heater/thermopile DC generator for the rectifier.
That way, everything but the phase shifter can be welded-wires construction.
Hey, it's gotta be RUGGED, to be impressive!
 
On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 15:31:04 +0100, Piotr Wyderski
<peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote:

legg wrote:

Magnetic amplifiers are conventionally effective in an AC environment
- the power source is already 'oscillating'.

Hence my question, whether it would be possible to build an all-magnetic
circuit.

Best regards, Piotr
Click to expand...

I challenge you to find the word 'oscillate' or 'oscillator' in any
text devoted to magnetic amplifiers or saturable inductor circuits.

Even one for motors and generators....come to think of it.

You may find scattered references to 'over-unity' devices, usually
ignoring the energy input to the practical circuits.

It's not blindness or some kind of intellectual tyranny - concepts of
gain, control theory and damping are readily applied, but 'passive
components'...are....just....that. You need a start-up mechanism that
can be seen by the reactive circuit elements, even at micro or nano
fabrication scales, for the DC-only application.

Once it starts, it might be carefully maintained through the
non-linear magnetics' opposing switching actions, the contribution of
capacitive reactances and probably some non-passive elements like
diodes to steer current.

And then, if youre very skillfull, it would do what most other
oscillators hope to do - almost nothing else.

RL
 
legg wrote:

I challenge you to find the word 'oscillate' or 'oscillator' in any
text devoted to magnetic amplifiers or saturable inductor circuits.
Click to expand...

You don't need to challenge me, I have exactly the same
experience after nontrivial amount of googling. There's
nothing about it. Which is the reason I asked here, the
people inhabiting this newsgroup know a lot about all
kinds of crazy things.

Best regards, Piotr
 
On 11/03/2015 10:54 AM, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 3 Nov 2015 16:19:34 +0100, Piotr Wyderski
peter.pan@neverland.mil> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

If you mean a DC powered circuit that oscillates using only passive
parts and diodes, no relays or such, I've never seen it done.

I'm not sure if you can call a magnetic amplifier a passive part.
It can exhibit admirable power gain, but needs to be powered by AC,
for example:

http://sparkbangbuzz.com/mag-audio-amp/mag-audio-amp.htm

The guy claims it has the gain of 2000. So recently, I have
started to wonder if you can use such a device as a DC-powered
oscillator. I agree, the answer "yes" would be a surprise, but
maybe it is "yes" indeed?

Best regards, Piotr

You can also make an amplifier or an oscillator using varicap and
rectifier diodes, but it also needs an AC pump.

Since nobody has done what you suggest in about 200 years of
tinkering, I suspect it can't be done.



Well, tunnel diodes work.
Click to expand...

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
 
On 11/3/2015 12:03 PM, Piotr Wyderski wrote:
legg wrote:

I challenge you to find the word 'oscillate' or 'oscillator' in any
text devoted to magnetic amplifiers or saturable inductor circuits.

You don't need to challenge me, I have exactly the same
experience after nontrivial amount of googling. There's
nothing about it. Which is the reason I asked here, the
people inhabiting this newsgroup know a lot about all
kinds of crazy things.

Best regards, Piotr
Click to expand...

I don't know if this is helpful, but here is an oscillator that runs
on 5.5mv B+. So it doesn't take much wiggle to work, now you just need
to find out how to wiggle it with out the FETs.
Needs a core that will saturate at less than 0.40 ma somewhere. ;-)

> http://www.dicks-website.eu/fetosc/enindex.htm

Mikek
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Welcome to EDABoard.com

Sponsor

Back
Top