Low Cost VOIP Providers

[rickman]

On 8/14/2013 9:09 PM, Robert Baer wrote:

rickman wrote:
With many things you can find good, low cost sources. But with some
things you have to choose... "good, fast, cheap - pick two" is common.

I've been Googling for VOIP providers and none of them seem to fair very
well unless they are a bit pricey with plans that remind me of cell
phones with limited minutes. There seem to be a few low cost providers
but they tend to get poor reviews on voice quality or dropped calls or
even completing calls. I've even read about one provider that only
requires a modest yearly payment, but makes it so hard to do that some
give up and subscribe all over again.

I don't get it. This is not new technology. Has anyone found a decent
VOIP provider? I'd like to use my existing phone number (seems not all
will let you transfer a number) and port the device with me when I
travel. Ideally it would support E911 and allow me to easily update the
info when I travel.

Otherwise I just need for it to replace my land line and not cost any
more. I'm only paying $15 a month to Verizon for that, and of course I
have to spit each time I write the check... I'm not a fan.

What are you using?

Looking at it sideways, i use Comcast with voice; looks and acts like a
Bell wired system - but reality is VOIP.
About $65/mo with lowest tier internet and no nationwide (to keep costs
down); supports E911, might be able to port a number.

I don't have the option of using Comcast as they don't service this
area. Cell data connections don't work reliably here either. In fact,
my options for digital connectivity were limited to satellite and
dial-up with a friend on satellite explaining that there isn't a lot of
difference sometimes. Until... someone who provides Internet off of
towers, not cell towers, but dedicated links. He uses a device in the
900 MHz band according to the info I found on it. Initially it didn't
do so well, but after a couple of weeks I have no complaints.

But you gave me an idea. I need to ask my provider if they offer any
sort of VOIP service. Who knows...? They are small, but maybe he is
"connected".

--

Rick

 

[rickman]

On 8/14/2013 9:22 PM, Joerg wrote:

rickman wrote:
With many things you can find good, low cost sources. But with some
things you have to choose... "good, fast, cheap - pick two" is common.

I've been Googling for VOIP providers and none of them seem to fair very
well unless they are a bit pricey with plans that remind me of cell
phones with limited minutes. There seem to be a few low cost providers
but they tend to get poor reviews on voice quality or dropped calls or
even completing calls. I've even read about one provider that only
requires a modest yearly payment, but makes it so hard to do that some
give up and subscribe all over again.

I don't get it. This is not new technology. Has anyone found a decent
VOIP provider? I'd like to use my existing phone number (seems not all
will let you transfer a number) and port the device with me when I
travel. Ideally it would support E911 and allow me to easily update the
info when I travel.

Otherwise I just need for it to replace my land line and not cost any
more. I'm only paying $15 a month to Verizon for that, and of course I
have to spit each time I write the check... I'm not a fan.

What are you using?


My advice: If you need this for business, don't switch. Aside from
technical issues with VoIP I've seen cases where phone numbers could not
be reached with calling cards anymore after they switched. There is no
free lunch.

The phone system as we know it when any number could reach any other
number no matter what seems to be beginning to unravel.

I don't think you understand my situation. I am seldom in the office
(there). I spend significant time here where cell coverage is poor
which makes the cell phone hard to use. Even if the call isn't dropped,
I have to stand on one side of the house and get lots of garbled words
with me replying (like a Dave Barry joke) "What? What?" I've learned
that most people, when you ask, "What?" will reply with a newly worked
version of what they said when all I needed was to hear that one word
that was garbled. Its like returning a book to the store because one
page was smudged and they want to have the author rewrite the ending.

So keeping the landline until now was just so I didn't lose the phone
number. In reality having that line in the office isn't that important.
But if I can drag that phone connection around with me and it becomes
much more useful again. Ideally it should have the same clarity as the
land line. That shouldn't be too much to ask... is it?

--

Rick

 

[Robert Baer]

Joerg wrote:

rickman wrote:
With many things you can find good, low cost sources. But with some
things you have to choose... "good, fast, cheap - pick two" is common.

I've been Googling for VOIP providers and none of them seem to fair very
well unless they are a bit pricey with plans that remind me of cell
phones with limited minutes. There seem to be a few low cost providers
but they tend to get poor reviews on voice quality or dropped calls or
even completing calls. I've even read about one provider that only
requires a modest yearly payment, but makes it so hard to do that some
give up and subscribe all over again.

I don't get it. This is not new technology. Has anyone found a decent
VOIP provider? I'd like to use my existing phone number (seems not all
will let you transfer a number) and port the device with me when I
travel. Ideally it would support E911 and allow me to easily update the
info when I travel.

Otherwise I just need for it to replace my land line and not cost any
more. I'm only paying $15 a month to Verizon for that, and of course I
have to spit each time I write the check... I'm not a fan.

What are you using?


My advice: If you need this for business, don't switch. Aside from
technical issues with VoIP I've seen cases where phone numbers could not
be reached with calling cards anymore after they switched. There is no
free lunch.

The phone system as we know it when any number could reach any other
number no matter what seems to be beginning to unravel.

My calling card still works fine; no apparent restrictions.

 

[Fred Abse]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 14:40:22 -0700, Charlie E. wrote:

On Thu, 15 Aug 2013 14:23:45 -0700, Don Y <this@isnotme.com> wrote:

We had rose bushes out by the front door. Never did well. I
finally decided to dig them up and plant something else in their
place (had been there from previous owner).

Imagine my thoughts when I discovered a slab of concrete about
12" beneath the soil level! "Sheesh! No wonder the damn things
never thrived!" (Apparently, builder had dumped all his surplus
concrete in that location, then covered it up with dirt...)

When we bought our first house, the back yard (all 400 square feet of
it!) was bare, so we decided to plant grass. Using an old rake, we
started trying to at least 'rough up' the surface, since it was hard
baked clay. Back in the middle of area, we hit a piece of old wire
that didn't want to come up. Get out the shove, go down about three
inches, hit what looks like plaster or cement! Start digging around,
and about an hour later we had a two foot deep hole around three feet
wide and a trash can full of construction debris.

We planted our lime tree there!

So as to grow your own cement?

--
"Design is the reverse of analysis"
(R.D. Middlebrook)

 

[Joerg]

Don Y wrote:

Hi Joerg,

On 8/16/2013 5:43 PM, Joerg wrote:
True home automation must IMHO have at least the option of being
accessible via phone and Internet.

Yup. And, with voice I/O, extending access to POTS is a
lead-pipe cinch! No need to add some "press 1 for lights;
press 2 for HVAC; press 3 for..." nonsense after-the-fact!

Voice I/O is something I don't really like. It will disturb folks in a
quiet environment, someone taking a nap.

Then how do you interact with a multifaceted system? Hundreds
of menu options?

"Press 1 for HVAC; 2 for security; 3 for... You have selected HVAC.
If this is not correct, press 9. Press 1 for heat; 2 for cooling;
3 for ... You have selected cooling. If this is not correct, press
9. Press 1 to set indoor temperature; press 2 to set humidification
options; press 3..."

Yup. After a while I have them memorized.

I don't think you understand the *scale* of what I am doing. :

How many "codes" are there to control a TV?
Volume up
Volume down
SAP on/off
CC on/off
Mute/Unmute
channel up
channel down
previous channel
channel N
select DVD input
pause
resume
power on/off
tint up/down
PIP on/off
PIP swap
freeze video
balance left/right/front/back
treble/bass up/down

Boiling that down to what we really need, we have:

Power on-off
Channel up
Channel down
HDMI
Volume up
Volum down

Just curious: Was the need to adjust tint a remnant of the old NTSC day,
pre-70's when TV sets didn't have a lot of smarts?

What about your "stereo"?
select tuner/CD/iPod/stream
select channel/program
select artist/album/track (which artist is #5?)
volume up/down
tone controls
pause
track forward/backward
fast forward/backward
return to top
loop/shuffle/random

We use:

Power on-off
Volume up
Volume down

It's "rusted in place" on a country station.

How do you tell the TV to route the live video feed from the front
door onto the screen and pause <whatever> video source you are
watching?

Our system routes the currently playing movie everywhere, on a UHF
channel. And our TV can't pause.

How do you ask the phone system if there have been any messages?

Either from the keypad of a phone while on the road or I walk over to
the answering machine. It's good to get some exercise

How do you command it to play them? Preserve/erase them? Leave
an outgoing message for a *particular* caller?

We don't need to do any of that. If a message is importnat we write it
down and then hit reset.

Ditto for the doorbell -- any visitors? How do you command the
system to replay the video/audio footage of their presence *at*
the door?

Why would I want to do that? To see their faces when a big dog stick his
head into the window frame?

What's the code to tell the washing machine that you want it to
run an extra rinse cycle because the laundry detergent is too
strong for your skin? Or, the dryer that it should run a
gentle cycle on low heat?

We tend to know that when putting the laundry into the machine and then
we are at the machine's front panel

Do you have to memorize which plants are on each irrigation
zone? How do you command the system to provide some extra
water to the roses?

If you don't remember that it would make no difference whether you are
at a keypad of a phone or at the irrigation controller. I installed it
but it's my wife who knows what's on which zone.

How do you check the status of the garage door? And, command
it closed if you find it open?

By looking.

How do you come up with a mnemonic device to remember these?
Does your wife have to adopt the same mnemonic device?

Or, do *you* assign the codes in a manner that makes sense to
you and let her assign them in a manner that makes sense to her?

On the X-10 and on the computer we did it together. Works.

It's just *so* much easier to say what you want and let the
system guide your choices.

Nah, not to me.

It can also have trouble with
accents, especially foreign ones. "Thaw the cheese" ... microwave turns
on defrost. "Taw da chiss" ... nothing happens. "Ssaw zee tchies" ...
nothing happens. Doesn't even have to be foreign. "I am tired" ...
lights dim down. "Ahm tarred" ... nothing happens.

That's when you try to design an unconstrained vocabulary!
If you implement a fixed vocabulary, you get considerably
higher recognition rates. E.g., speaking one of ten digits
(and ONLY digits) its really easy to approach 100% first
pass recognition rate. ...

Then one might as well press the buttons.

Which button is "roses"? Or, "garage"?

You can have the menu announce it, or just remember it. I can remember
numbers fairly easily and so can my wife. When I had an excruciating
toothache on a Saturday my wife instantly recited the dentist's
emergency home phone number, from memory. We hadn't used that in years.
Same for the various nursing homes we visit as volunteers. You can't
write down the codes because an Alzheimer's resident might find it and
wander off. We memorize them.

Remembering words is more difficult. But that may also be because we
switch between languages a lot.

Speech is the most ubiquitous interface. We deal with it
every day. It's how we *want* to interact with things.

Well, I for one don't want to. Whenever I hear a message that says I
have to speak stuff into the receiver and no option to punch numbers I
have to suppress a not so nice expression. Sometimes then I just start
pounding "0" until a live person shows up.

In the case of home automation, I guess that live person would be
what -- a butler?? :

That's the problem, we don't have a butler. So I prefer numbers. It's
much faster.

Speaking Yes ... YES!! ... no ... thirty-four ... into a phone sounds a
bit dorky to me. I do not like to do that.

I didn't say you were doing it into a phone. Only when you are
trying to *access* the system remotely *via* a phone! Why should
I have to carry a phone around when I'm home?

So how does it work? You holler at the ceiling where there is a
microphone? Our dogs would probably think "Now they are really off their
rockers"

(how does any of that make sense when you are *inside* the home
and NOT on the phone??)

A lot. Many times we'll have a cordless handset on the belt or next to
us because a call is expected.

Would you *want* to be required to interact with the system
through that? "Honey, where's the phone? I want to turn
the heat up..."

No, but the other option is carrying a remote around. Hollering from the
other end of the yard "BASKETBALL COURT LIGHTS ON!" is not particularly
appreciated in this neighborhood

But you don't have to do that! :

My current plans allow for the use of a BT headset within the
house/yard (because dealing with ambient noise in speech
recognition is too much for me to tackle). ...

I don't like to run around with one of those micro-Zeppelins stuck to my
ear.

... In certain areas
(e.g., shower), an "open mic" performs the same function
(though when in the shower, you wouldn't be likely to say
"water the roses" -- though you might say, "tell me who's
calling on the phone"); voice over a telephone connection;
"buttons/icons" over an internet connection or from one of
the four "control panels" inside the house; and buttons/voice
when accessed via "wireless terminals" around the house.

And then the soap slips out of your hand, you want to pick it up, some
pain shoots up from the sciatica ... "S..T!" ... "Honey, I heard that.
Didn't we agree not to use those words anymore?"

In each case, the interface is tied to the location in which it
is operated and the "device" implementing it. E.g., *your*
BT earpiece is configured differently from mine and each
varies depending on where we are located when we issue commands.

E.g., "channel up" wouldn't apply to a TV if there wasn't a TV
in the room. But, it *would* apply to a stereo located therein!
(OTOH, it wouldn't be recognized at all if you were in the back yard!)

Well, but sometimes we sit in the backyard and watch a movie. And I'd
like to be able to hit the pause button if one of us needs a fresh beer

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Joerg]

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Fri, 16 Aug 2013 15:32:29 -0700, Joerg <invalid@invalid.invalid
wrote:

They all tout QoS as the magic buzzword. But then you have a phone
conference and "We should also discuss the .......ility of ..... lato
.... up" ... "Ahm, could you repeat?". The worst is the low dynamic
range where it seems there is artificial noise piped in or where the
system decides what is a silent period despite the fact that someone in
the background was talking.

We've been through this before. No need for me to rant about it
again. However, I have a new horror story. Another office in the
building switched to ADSL2+ and 8x8 VoIP service (4 lines) using
Polycom hardware. They were complaining about garbled audio. Since
they had a service contract with various vendors, I had to get
permission and passwords before I could do any investigating. In
talking with the IT people, I was rather impressed with their
competence.

That changed as soon as I dived in. What I found was:
1. The router was an antique from the stone age and could barely
operate at speed (8 Mbits/sec down, 1 Mbit/sec up). However, it did
have all the necessary features.
2. The router had SPI (stateful packet inspection) enabled, which
tends to produce out of order packets. Running a jitter test
confirmed the problem. Turning off SPI solved it, but I think a new
router would be a better fix.
3. The service was allegedly configured for Annex A, but the modem
(Speedstream 4100) said otherwise.
4. Nobody had bothered to reserve any bandwidth for VoIP packets. QoS
was turned off. SIP protocol was not the highest priority.
5. The company was using Dropbox on all machines, carrying about 1.5
Gigabloats of data. However, someone had turned off local delivery
resulting in everything going out via the internet, to the Dropbox
server, and back again to the individual machines. Although I would
have preferred to only enable Dropbox during the late evening,
enabling local delivery was a big help.
6. All of the machines were capable of doing gigabit ethernet, yet
they only had a 10/100baseT switch. I added an 8 port gigabit switch
to the existing 24 port switch, moving the high traffic machines to
the faster LAN.
7. The fairly new Seagate NAS box was in the last stages of HD
meltdown and was slowing everyone down. The problem was that it was
generating large numbers of retransmissions resulting in copious
traffic, but little thruput. Wireshark capture was disgusting. The
device had the good sense to die before I could rip it out and
warranty it across the room.

I went on vacation before I could fix everything, but at this time,
the VoIP is working and nobody is complaining.

Please do NOT assume that everything is just wonderful and that any
garble is the fault of the VoIP system or technology. VoIP is real
time and therefore sensitive to a wider range of network anomalies.
Everything could be working adequately and only VoIP might show
problems. That what I think you saw at this company.

Jeff, I know it can work. I am using VoIP myself, here, several times a
week via GoToMeeting and it works 98% of the time. Not 100% like POTS
but that's almost good enough. When it quits we have a POTS dial-in as
well. I would never subscribe to any such service that doesn't have a
POTS backup. That is why we decided against using Skype.

But in the end I don't care why it doesn't work. What you described is
something that sounds very complicated. With POTS or a PBX you can call
ol' Leroy down the street and he'll fix it. With VoIP you have very few
experts who really know this stuff well enough, as has been clearly
evidenced by what you just described. Now there isn't a Jeff Liebermann
in every town so a lot of folks will just never arrive at a nicely
working VoIP. Because ol' Leroy doesn't know that SPI messes up VoIP.
And the company IT policy may not even allow him to turn that off in the
first place even if he knew. Then he'll be at wits end. It is too
complicated for the situation. POTS isn't complicated, any phone service
tech can fix that.

Oh yeah. It's somewhat similar with the newfangled cell stuff. GSM with
its range limits,

Ahem...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timing_advance
The original GSM was 35 km maximum. It can now do 120 km.
Effectively, it's borrowing an extra time slot to extend the range .
Rural cell sites use this feature, although it's usually disabled in
dense metro areas.

Same thing here: It often is not enabled. They set a cell range and you
aren't supposed to use it farther than that. With CDMA you can in a
pinch. You climb on a hilltop and bingo.

phone switching over to WiFi at times, and whatnot.

That largely depends on the acceptance and implementation of 802.11r,
fast roaming:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11r-2008
In order to preserve an IP address between the cellular and wi-fi
networks, both the wi-fi and cellular routers have to be able to route
the session IP address. If the IP address was delivered initially by
cellular, that means the wi-fi router will need to assign a static
route to the cellular router that originally handled the IP traffic.
That isn't happening and is unlikely to happen in the future. What is
happening is when a cellular service provider offers wi-fi, they own
both the cellular and wi-fi routers, making the transition possible.
Then, all we have to do is wait for smartphone vendors to support
802.11r. At this time, Apple IOS 6 supports 802.11r.

But the fact is, when that transition happened a lot of calls from
clients to my office went ker-clunk. They had to dial again.

Numerous times I handed my trusty little CDMA phone to someone because
he couldn't get through on his highfalutin $200+ phone.

Did he have to crank the magneto in order to ring the operator at the
other end?

No, that one is in our kitchen, a Western Electric wall phone. With
(disabled) crank, receiver, fully integrated notepad holder, pencil.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 03:24:50 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

Short answer: The money is in the service, not the product. With
that arrangement, there's no incentive to make things easier, which
might reduce service revenue[1].

That makes no sense to me. Competition is not just in the price, but in
getting the customer which is often a matter of making it *easy* form
them. Just look at how long AOL was able to hold onto customers who
simply didn't know how or want to know how to get on the Internet by a
standard ISP. That was when ISPs didn't make it as easy as they do now.

I still have a few AOL customers. I spend some time getting them out
of trouble and showing them how to do things. AOL didn't eliminate
the need to know how things work and why you can't send a gigabyte
email attachment.

IP telephony is much the same. Packaged systems make easy things
easier, but do nothing for dealing with the difficult and complex
problems. If your needs are simple, an FXO/FXS box will suffice.
You'll be fine as long as you don't try to do anything elaborate.
However, if you need something complex, you'll need to either have the
service company do it for you, or do it yourself.

Actually, that's not quite right. Even the simplest VoIP phone system
comes with a control panel for managing the account, a page to handle
the billing, and a button pushing cheat sheet for handling the voice
mail. The basics are easy enough, but again, if you want to do
anything complex, you'll need to know how it works.

Incidentally, the most common and apparently chronic failure mode that
my customers seem to experience is forgetting to pay the bill.

The service model you seek is the cable set top box model. You
buy/lease/rent a powerful set top box that can do many things.

Powerful??? I want a phone. I've said this any number of times. I
just want a phone that looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks
like a duck... or a POTS. That's not really hard to do.

Yes powerful, but hidden from prying eyes. It's a black box, with
lots of goodies inside, capable of doing amazing things, but totally
under the control of the service provider. It works well for
satellite/cable TV and some VoIP providers (Vonage, Ooma) where the
service provider does the provisioning.

As for "hard to do", I think it's impossible to stuff the genie back
into its box. POTS telephony is simple and has survived largely in
its original form for 150 years. However, add a mess of electronics
into the box and the simplicity is gone. It's much like the cell
phone transitions from MTS, IMTS, RCC, AMPS, 1G ... 4G, etc. At every
step of the way, users of the older technology were complaining that
the new technology was so complicated that they wanted their dinosaur
phone back. I see the same thing moving users, often kicking and
screaming from older versions of Windoze to the latest greatest. What
they want, and possibly what you want, are all the features of the new
systems, without the learning curve and maintenance headaches of the
transition. That's not going to happen.

Many of these services let you "bring your own equipment" in which case
this issue is moot.

None of the plug-n-pray VoIP vendors allow that. They don't want to
support a mixed bag of customer owned hardware. Ooma and Vonage
certainly do not allow user owned hardware. They don't even allow
softphones. They sell what they can support, and no more.

It's not the box that has the magic, it is in the
provider. They need to get smart. If they provide quality service then
they should be able to market it profitably. But they seem to fall
short in some ways. I guess there just isn't a lot of markup and some
folks try to take advantage... Don't know.

Maybe. I don't think the margins in selling VoIP minutes is
sufficient to provide full service telephony at bargain basement
prices. I've looked at the numbers and found it amazing that VoIP
providers are able to stay afloat. There's also considerable
competition due to minimal regulation.

As for providing quality service, I don't think anyone will argue that
VoIP quality is lacking compared to POTS telephony. If you want audio
quality, reliability, repair service, and universal availability, POTS
is the answer. If you can live with a lower level of these, at a
reduced cost, VoIP becomes attractive. I don't think any of the VoIP
vendors will provide an SLA (service level agreement) which guarantees
five 9's or better reliability, but I might be wrong.

Wallmart is vending Clearcall for someone, maybe Vonage. Sounds good at
$10 a month for unlimited, but I've read they aren't good at some
aspect, don't remember what it was.

Walmart carries a selection of services and devices:
<http://www.walmart.com/cp/Internet-Phone-Products-VoIP/164222>
I don't know anything about ClearCall(?). The problem with comparing
vendors is that the VoIP feature list is huge. If the vendor is using
an Asterisk switch, the feature sets will be very close or even
identical. If the vendor is using some other switch, there may be
substantial differences.

Oh yeah,
no business use, including home businesses... that leaves me out if I
want to follow the rules.

Nobody follows the rules. Such rules are there so that if the VoIP
service vendor needs a reason to pull the plug on the customers, they
have the necessary ammunition. The other reason is that the tax
structure is different for home and business users.

I find that is usually a rip off where
they are passing *their* taxes on to the user and claim that the
Government requires them to do that.

Yep. I pass on 100.0% of my taxes to my customers. Some rule
requires that they disclose all taxes passed on to their customers.
Normally, this would be done invisibly as part of the cost of doing
business. However, customers want to know what they're paying for, so
the taxes are itemized on the bill. Then they complain about paying
for the service providers taxes. Well yes, that's the way it works.

I was even told that lie by AT&T
when I used them for long distance. I called the FCC and was told it
was *their* tax to pay and it was being passed on to me, not that the
FCC required them to collect it from the customers. Now they word it
differently.

Yep. I don't want to get into the USF (universal service fund)
debate.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[rickman]

On 8/17/2013 4:16 AM, Don Y wrote:

Hi Rick,

On 8/17/2013 12:46 AM, rickman wrote:

But like I said, a friend has brought her phone here and used it for
hours on two occasions. Isn't the proof of the pudding in the eating?

Then why not just buy whatever *she* has? You already *know*
it will work, right?

Two reasons. One, the issue I'm addressing is the ISP, not the VOIP
provider. The point is that if my ISP works for her phone, it works for
VOIP. The other is that her place is part of package, cell phone plus
$10 a month gets her the VOIP phone. I don't want another cell provider.

This is for good
reason as the major cost savings in using VoIP are to *NOT* go through
the PSTN. In order to do that, you need to know how the call is
routed, how to dial, and possibly some diagnostics. If you don't want
to do all that, then just get a full service VoIP provider with
support, and let them deal with it for you.

No, *I don't* need to know all of that. I need to find a company that
knows how it all works and they just *make it happen*. Even the POTS
has become very complex over the last few decades. At one time it was
referred to as the largest distributed computer system in the world. I
don't need to program to use a phone though.

You're missing the point.

You can run MSWindows -- paying MS for a license to use the OS.
You can then *buy* an email program (if you don't like MSOutlook).
And, *buy* a spreadsheet, word processor, database, etc.
And, *buy* a compiler (if you write code).
And, *buy* a CAD program.
And, *buy* a schematic capture/PCB layout system.
And, *buy*...

And, all these things will just work "out of the box" (or, will
at least *claim* to do so!). And, you'll have someone to hold
your hand when things don't work (at least for some initial
period of time)

Or I can use open source software for all of the above and it also works
just as well. Why would I want to buy all that stuff when I can use
open source and get *better* support???

Between hardware and software, you can *easily* spend $10K, $20K
or more on a single workstation!

Or, you could install any one of several FREE OS's. And, a *free*
spreadsheet, word processor, database, compiler, CAD program,
schematic capture, PCB layout, etc. ALL FOR FREE!!

Yes, exactly!

But, there's a *catch*! Going the FREE route requires you to
understand a bit more about how things work.

Really? I don't need to know anything about Windows to keep it working?
You basic premise is totally flawed.

You may have
to do some custom configuration to make things run the way you
want them to. You may have to install a "window manager"
instead of relying on whatever MS has. You may have to go
hunting through support forums to see if someone has already
asked -- and had answered -- a question that you have. etc.

I'm not sure which you are talking about here, this would apply to
either opens source or commercial products.

The flip-side of this "catch" is that you can do things that
MS hasn't even *considered*, yet!

You have to decide how much you want to do in return for what
you want to *gain* (whether that is money saved on monthly
charges or features implemented that wouldn't be available
otherwise or "not having to understand how things work").

If you want "no hassles", someone to hold your hand and answer
the phone when you have a problem, you *pay* for that convenience.

As you *should*!

Yeah, if you say so. You analogy doesn't work because the premise that
you have to take on responsibility for technology working in order to
save money is fundamentally flawed. Do you build your own cars? No,
because they are best built in a large factory with highly efficient
machinery that even most companies can't afford.

Internet services are the same way. The low cost providers are selling
crude packages requiring you to "do it yourself" because the market is
not mature. A provider large enough will be able to gain economy of
scale and provide VOIP services at a decent price and quality while
still offering a package that the average consumer can appreciate and use.

Ten years ago the average user needed someone knowledgeable to set up
their network. Now if Aunt Minnie can't do it herself, she gets her
nephew or niece to do it because it's that simple.

There is no reason for VOIP software and hardware to be difficult to
setup regardless of what some may tell you. The market simply needs to
mature enough so that consumers will only accept plug and play products.
VOIP is still very much not mainstream, but that will change.

--

Rick

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 03:46:12 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

Measure the jitter, especially when there's lots of traffic. Setup
QoS. Then play.

Yeah well, I don't know how to do that.

<http://myspeed.visualware.com/indexvoip.php>

I'm sure it is simple once you
learn what tools are available and where to find them, but that is info
I don't have.

The test is easy enough. However, interpreting the results is tricky.

>You may understand the technology, but you clearly don't get people.

True. I do best with the technology, not the users of the technology.
I'm the wrong person to be discussion what you want to buy. However,
see me when it goes awry, when it costs too much, or when it blows up.

I
want a phone. A phone is a simple to use device no matter what the
technology is. It could be a phone going over a $100 million satellite
connection, but that doesn't mean I should need to know orbital
mechanics. I just need to know the phone number I want to dial.

Like I said previously, there are vendors that cater to plug-n-play
installations like yours. Ooma and Vonage are two examples.

No, *I don't* need to know all of that. I need to find a company that
knows how it all works and they just *make it happen*. Even the POTS
has become very complex over the last few decades. At one time it was
referred to as the largest distributed computer system in the world. I
don't need to program to use a phone though.

I recall reading some ancient Roman lament about the complexity of
modern society. The price of progress is complexity and yes you do
need to know how to program a phone (or have someone do it for you).

Sigh. I'm disappointed.

In what, the fact that I don't want to have to learn more engineering
stuff to use a telephone? I would be the same way with computers but
that isn't remotely practical. But even they are getting better.

Yeah, something like that. If you're going to make a proper decision
as to which VoIP vendor to use, some knowledge of the technology and
infrastructure would be helpful. After all, this is a technical
newsgroup. However, if you're going convenience shopping, and are
making your purchase decision on the basis of the price, company web
site, reviews, and whether the color of the box matches your
furniture, methinks you could do better. Yeah, I'm disappointed.

There are different meanings to "low cost". I don't want to pay $35 a
month to Vonage. Something like the $10 a month for BasicTalk would be
better if it worked well and I could actually find out what it costs.

I pay $6.25/month (actually $75/year) for Future-Nine.com service. In
effect, I'm NOT paying the difference between a full service provider
and Future-Nine to NOT pay someone to do what I can easily do myself.
That works out to about $20/month savings or $240/year savings.

>Exactly. So I don't need to know about it.

I wasn't suggesting a total immersion in VoIP technology. Just some
buzzwords and understanding of how things work so that you can make a
proper decision.

Yeah, well that excludes some 90% of the potential customers. Very few
people have enough experience with VOIP to set up a complex system, much
less the interest.

Probably true. However, there are a substantial number of customers
that just want minimal PSTN gateway service, without committing to a
bulk purchase of wholesale minutes, that will keep such small vendors
alive. These customers usually know how it all works and can handle
their own systems. I'm one of those as are some of my friends and
competitors.

What features are there? I guess I don't know what I don't know. What
am I missing?

Let's go through the features that I actually use on my "system".
1. I have a 4 line VoIP phone in the office. Linksys SPA941. Line 1
is my Future-Nine number. Line 2 is an extension off Asterisk switch
located at a customers. Line 3 is an extension off an Asterisk switch
located in Israel. Line 4 is for direct SIP connections and testing.
2. As I previously mentioned, I have 3 instruments, in 3 different
locations, all setup on the same phone number. When a call comes in,
it rings at all 3 locations. I only pay for 1 phone number and
account
3. My voice mail is delivered by email as a WAV file.
4. I maintain a blacklist of undesirable phone numbers. Nothing
fancy as I just send the junk calls to voicemail and skim through them
when I have time (in case I missed something important).
5. I use a SIP softphone and Skype on my laptop and smartphone. All
the features that I have in my office are available on my laptop. I
also carry a PAP2 ATA for travel. Getting it to work on a hotel or
coffee shop system is a bit tricky, but not impossible.
6. I use DND (do not disturb) feature when ummm... I don't want to be
interrupted. Push a button on the phone and everything goes to
voicemail.
7. I have a system where I can record the entire phone call. This
has become quite handy for finger pointing exercises and blame
assignment. This is not provided by my VoIP service provider.

See anything useful?

>I need a phone replacement, that's all.

Resistance is futile. You will be educated (in VoIP).

The cell service here is poor
and I am spending more on minutes that I would like.

I've installed a few of these for such situations. If the service is
poor, they will help. If the service is non-existent, it won't help:
<http://www.zboost.com>
<http://www.zboost.com/solutions-products/home-office/yx545.html>
Yagi or panel antenna on the roof. RG-6a/u coax to the box. About
50ft indoor range. Photo of the insides:
<http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/zBoost/>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Joerg]

rickman wrote:

On 8/14/2013 9:22 PM, Joerg wrote:
rickman wrote:
With many things you can find good, low cost sources. But with some
things you have to choose... "good, fast, cheap - pick two" is common.

I've been Googling for VOIP providers and none of them seem to fair very
well unless they are a bit pricey with plans that remind me of cell
phones with limited minutes. There seem to be a few low cost providers
but they tend to get poor reviews on voice quality or dropped calls or
even completing calls. I've even read about one provider that only
requires a modest yearly payment, but makes it so hard to do that some
give up and subscribe all over again.

I don't get it. This is not new technology. Has anyone found a decent
VOIP provider? I'd like to use my existing phone number (seems not all
will let you transfer a number) and port the device with me when I
travel. Ideally it would support E911 and allow me to easily update the
info when I travel.

Otherwise I just need for it to replace my land line and not cost any
more. I'm only paying $15 a month to Verizon for that, and of course I
have to spit each time I write the check... I'm not a fan.

What are you using?


My advice: If you need this for business, don't switch. Aside from
technical issues with VoIP I've seen cases where phone numbers could not
be reached with calling cards anymore after they switched. There is no
free lunch.

The phone system as we know it when any number could reach any other
number no matter what seems to be beginning to unravel.

I don't think you understand my situation. I am seldom in the office
(there). I spend significant time here where cell coverage is poor
which makes the cell phone hard to use. Even if the call isn't dropped,
I have to stand on one side of the house and get lots of garbled words
with me replying (like a Dave Barry joke) "What? What?" I've learned
that most people, when you ask, "What?" will reply with a newly worked
version of what they said when all I needed was to hear that one word
that was garbled. Its like returning a book to the store because one
page was smudged and they want to have the author rewrite the ending.

So keeping the landline until now was just so I didn't lose the phone
number. In reality having that line in the office isn't that important.
But if I can drag that phone connection around with me and it becomes
much more useful again. Ideally it should have the same clarity as the
land line. That shouldn't be too much to ask... is it?

So I assume at the "here" loation you don't have a landline, only at the
"there" location where you really don't need it. Why not move the
"there" landline to "here"? A friend of mine has it set up so it always
rings through on his cell. He can pick up either receiver, the cell or
his POTS phone. I am sure this can also be arranged with a VoIP carrier,
except that I personally wouldn't trust that technology 100%.

Running them completely parallel should not be a technical problem but
it's probably not a big enough market (for whatever reason) that the
telcos don't offer it. If you want to be able to pick up a call on a
POTS or VoIP phone and then at the spur of the moment be able to
continue the call on your cell and walk away from the house you could
possibly use a conference call service for that. But your POTS or VoIP
would need to be able to reroute the call to that conference service on
the fly.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Joerg]

Robert Baer wrote:

Joerg wrote:
rickman wrote:
With many things you can find good, low cost sources. But with some
things you have to choose... "good, fast, cheap - pick two" is common.

I've been Googling for VOIP providers and none of them seem to fair very
well unless they are a bit pricey with plans that remind me of cell
phones with limited minutes. There seem to be a few low cost providers
but they tend to get poor reviews on voice quality or dropped calls or
even completing calls. I've even read about one provider that only
requires a modest yearly payment, but makes it so hard to do that some
give up and subscribe all over again.

I don't get it. This is not new technology. Has anyone found a decent
VOIP provider? I'd like to use my existing phone number (seems not all
will let you transfer a number) and port the device with me when I
travel. Ideally it would support E911 and allow me to easily update the
info when I travel.

Otherwise I just need for it to replace my land line and not cost any
more. I'm only paying $15 a month to Verizon for that, and of course I
have to spit each time I write the check... I'm not a fan.

What are you using?


My advice: If you need this for business, don't switch. Aside from
technical issues with VoIP I've seen cases where phone numbers could not
be reached with calling cards anymore after they switched. There is no
free lunch.

The phone system as we know it when any number could reach any other
number no matter what seems to be beginning to unravel.

My calling card still works fine; no apparent restrictions.

So do mine. But there have been cases where certain numbers we no longer
reachable after they switcher to some sort of supposedly "better" deal.
It can be really bad with the 1010-numbers.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[rickman]

On 8/17/2013 1:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 03:46:12 -0400, rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

Measure the jitter, especially when there's lots of traffic. Setup
QoS. Then play.

Yeah well, I don't know how to do that.

http://myspeed.visualware.com/indexvoip.php

That link was posted before. It uses Java and I don't have Java on my
browser.

I'm sure it is simple once you
learn what tools are available and where to find them, but that is info
I don't have.

The test is easy enough. However, interpreting the results is tricky.

You may understand the technology, but you clearly don't get people.

True. I do best with the technology, not the users of the technology.
I'm the wrong person to be discussion what you want to buy. However,
see me when it goes awry, when it costs too much, or when it blows up.

Maybe I should ask you to set me up with a provider and an adapter? Do
you understand what I want? What would you charge me to make it work?

I
want a phone. A phone is a simple to use device no matter what the
technology is. It could be a phone going over a $100 million satellite
connection, but that doesn't mean I should need to know orbital
mechanics. I just need to know the phone number I want to dial.

Like I said previously, there are vendors that cater to plug-n-play
installations like yours. Ooma and Vonage are two examples.

The reviews of Ooma are not good and Vonage is overpriced for my needs
at $30 a month plus I think taxes. Why is it no one can tell you in
advance what the taxes are?

No, *I don't* need to know all of that. I need to find a company that
knows how it all works and they just *make it happen*. Even the POTS
has become very complex over the last few decades. At one time it was
referred to as the largest distributed computer system in the world. I
don't need to program to use a phone though.

I recall reading some ancient Roman lament about the complexity of
modern society. The price of progress is complexity and yes you do
need to know how to program a phone (or have someone do it for you).

Sigh. I'm disappointed.

In what, the fact that I don't want to have to learn more engineering
stuff to use a telephone? I would be the same way with computers but
that isn't remotely practical. But even they are getting better.

Yeah, something like that. If you're going to make a proper decision
as to which VoIP vendor to use, some knowledge of the technology and
infrastructure would be helpful. After all, this is a technical
newsgroup. However, if you're going convenience shopping, and are
making your purchase decision on the basis of the price, company web
site, reviews, and whether the color of the box matches your
furniture, methinks you could do better. Yeah, I'm disappointed.

I don't actually have a "decor" so I don't need to match any colors.
Does that make you feel better?

There are different meanings to "low cost". I don't want to pay $35 a
month to Vonage. Something like the $10 a month for BasicTalk would be
better if it worked well and I could actually find out what it costs.

I pay $6.25/month (actually $75/year) for Future-Nine.com service. In
effect, I'm NOT paying the difference between a full service provider
and Future-Nine to NOT pay someone to do what I can easily do myself.
That works out to about $20/month savings or $240/year savings.

Yeah, but Future Nine requires you to be knowledgeable in the operation
of the system and I'm not. That one in particular I can't even figure
out what they charge and what I have to buy. I bet you can't either
unless you read it off your statement. Their web site is horrible.

Exactly. So I don't need to know about it.

I wasn't suggesting a total immersion in VoIP technology. Just some
buzzwords and understanding of how things work so that you can make a
proper decision.

I don't think "Just some buzzwords and understanding of how things work"
is sufficient for picking a vendor. My problem is the vendors don't
explain their service well enough for *anyone* to know what they offer
and what they charge. For example, I still don't know if I have to pay
for E911 service with Callcentric after two emails from them.

I told them what I was thinking of buying and asked if that required
E911 activation and fees...

"Regarding 911, in general, if you are using our services within the US/
Canada and have at least one service under your account (whether it is
an inbound service, or an outbound service, or if you are using our
services for faxing, or if you are using our services for forwarding),
as per FCC/ CRTC regulation, we are required to provide you with the 911
service, as mentioned on the following FAQ
(http://www.callcentric.com/faq/23/162)."

Was that a yes or a no? They qualify this with "and have at least one
service under your account"... what does that mean? Why would I have an
account without a service? So if I get incoming calls only I still have
to pay for E911 even though I can't call 911???

Yeah, well that excludes some 90% of the potential customers. Very few
people have enough experience with VOIP to set up a complex system, much
less the interest.

Probably true. However, there are a substantial number of customers
that just want minimal PSTN gateway service, without committing to a
bulk purchase of wholesale minutes, that will keep such small vendors
alive. These customers usually know how it all works and can handle
their own systems. I'm one of those as are some of my friends and
competitors.

What features are there? I guess I don't know what I don't know. What
am I missing?

Let's go through the features that I actually use on my "system".

There is no need to consider your system since I won't be using anything
remotely like your system. How about considering *my* system? One
adapter and a POTS phone, maybe two since that seems to be a fairly
standard service provided at no extra cost.

1. I have a 4 line VoIP phone in the office. Linksys SPA941. Line 1
is my Future-Nine number. Line 2 is an extension off Asterisk switch
located at a customers. Line 3 is an extension off an Asterisk switch
located in Israel. Line 4 is for direct SIP connections and testing.
2. As I previously mentioned, I have 3 instruments, in 3 different
locations, all setup on the same phone number. When a call comes in,
it rings at all 3 locations. I only pay for 1 phone number and
account
3. My voice mail is delivered by email as a WAV file.
4. I maintain a blacklist of undesirable phone numbers. Nothing
fancy as I just send the junk calls to voicemail and skim through them
when I have time (in case I missed something important).
5. I use a SIP softphone and Skype on my laptop and smartphone. All
the features that I have in my office are available on my laptop. I
also carry a PAP2 ATA for travel. Getting it to work on a hotel or
coffee shop system is a bit tricky, but not impossible.
6. I use DND (do not disturb) feature when ummm... I don't want to be
interrupted. Push a button on the phone and everything goes to
voicemail.
7. I have a system where I can record the entire phone call. This
has become quite handy for finger pointing exercises and blame
assignment. This is not provided by my VoIP service provider.

See anything useful?

Mostly no except for the three locations. I might find a use for
softphone when I am not at any of my locations but am using the laptop
on the internet.

I need a phone replacement, that's all.

Resistance is futile. You will be educated (in VoIP).

Not this way. I expect it will be even more painful.

The cell service here is poor
and I am spending more on minutes that I would like.

I've installed a few of these for such situations. If the service is
poor, they will help. If the service is non-existent, it won't help:
http://www.zboost.com
http://www.zboost.com/solutions-products/home-office/yx545.html
Yagi or panel antenna on the roof. RG-6a/u coax to the box. About
50ft indoor range. Photo of the insides:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/zBoost/

Wow! $400 times two. My roommate has ATT and I'm on Verizon, so we
would need nearly $1000 worth of equipment to improve the signal. I
think VOIP is a better solution. Cell phone suck even when they get a
good signal in my opinion. On the other hand, my roommate lives on his
iPhone.

--

Rick

 

[Don Y]

On 8/17/2013 8:14 AM, Joerg wrote:

[All elided]

Joerg, you obviously don't need/want an automation system.
Hopefully, you will just "drop dead" (not meant in a mean-spirited
way!) some day and never have to suffer with: vision loss, paralysis,
stroke, tremor, or any of the other "loss of ability" that would
benefit from having help performing the tasks that we all have
to perform in the course of our normal days.

Watching a friend being *lifted* into bed -- unable to move more
and more parts of her body as ALS works its ravages on her
nervous system -- makes it painfully obvious how easily and
often lives are needlessly complicated by the *lack* of these
sorts of "aids".

Of course, when/if you find yourself in this situation, it will
probably be too late for you to make any changes in your
environment -- other than hiring some *human* help to perform
the tasks that *could* have been performed by something far
less expensive (and INVASIVE). Or, you may just grumble and
wonder why no one addressed these problems, before: "Gee, it's
so EASY! All you need to do is..."

Good luck with that "drop dead" prospect! :>

["I want to die peacefully, in my sleep, like Grandpa. Not
screaming in terror like the 42 people on the bus he was
driving at the time!"]

--don

 

[Don Y]

On 8/17/2013 7:23 AM, Fred Abse wrote:

When we bought our first house, the back yard (all 400 square feet of
it!) was bare, so we decided to plant grass. Using an old rake, we
started trying to at least 'rough up' the surface, since it was hard
baked clay. Back in the middle of area, we hit a piece of old wire
that didn't want to come up. Get out the shove, go down about three
inches, hit what looks like plaster or cement! Start digging around,
and about an hour later we had a two foot deep hole around three feet
wide and a trash can full of construction debris.

We planted our lime tree there!

So as to grow your own cement?

*ooooooo* that is *so* bad that it's actually quite GOOD!

 

[Don Y]

On 8/17/2013 10:38 AM, rickman wrote:

On 8/17/2013 4:16 AM, Don Y wrote:
Hi Rick,

On 8/17/2013 12:46 AM, rickman wrote:

But like I said, a friend has brought her phone here and used it for
hours on two occasions. Isn't the proof of the pudding in the eating?

Then why not just buy whatever *she* has? You already *know*
it will work, right?

Two reasons. One, the issue I'm addressing is the ISP, not the VOIP
provider. The point is that if my ISP works for her phone, it works for
VOIP. The other is that her place is part of package, cell phone plus
$10 a month gets her the VOIP phone. I don't want another cell provider.

Do some reading.

Good luck! I'm outta this conversation...

 

[rickman]

On 8/17/2013 2:37 PM, Joerg wrote:

rickman wrote:
On 8/14/2013 9:22 PM, Joerg wrote:
rickman wrote:
With many things you can find good, low cost sources. But with some
things you have to choose... "good, fast, cheap - pick two" is common.

I've been Googling for VOIP providers and none of them seem to fair very
well unless they are a bit pricey with plans that remind me of cell
phones with limited minutes. There seem to be a few low cost providers
but they tend to get poor reviews on voice quality or dropped calls or
even completing calls. I've even read about one provider that only
requires a modest yearly payment, but makes it so hard to do that some
give up and subscribe all over again.

I don't get it. This is not new technology. Has anyone found a decent
VOIP provider? I'd like to use my existing phone number (seems not all
will let you transfer a number) and port the device with me when I
travel. Ideally it would support E911 and allow me to easily update the
info when I travel.

Otherwise I just need for it to replace my land line and not cost any
more. I'm only paying $15 a month to Verizon for that, and of course I
have to spit each time I write the check... I'm not a fan.

What are you using?


My advice: If you need this for business, don't switch. Aside from
technical issues with VoIP I've seen cases where phone numbers could not
be reached with calling cards anymore after they switched. There is no
free lunch.

The phone system as we know it when any number could reach any other
number no matter what seems to be beginning to unravel.

I don't think you understand my situation. I am seldom in the office
(there). I spend significant time here where cell coverage is poor
which makes the cell phone hard to use. Even if the call isn't dropped,
I have to stand on one side of the house and get lots of garbled words
with me replying (like a Dave Barry joke) "What? What?" I've learned
that most people, when you ask, "What?" will reply with a newly worked
version of what they said when all I needed was to hear that one word
that was garbled. Its like returning a book to the store because one
page was smudged and they want to have the author rewrite the ending.

So keeping the landline until now was just so I didn't lose the phone
number. In reality having that line in the office isn't that important.
But if I can drag that phone connection around with me and it becomes
much more useful again. Ideally it should have the same clarity as the
land line. That shouldn't be too much to ask... is it?


So I assume at the "here" loation you don't have a landline, only at the
"there" location where you really don't need it. Why not move the
"there" landline to "here"?

I do get a little tired of answering questions already answered. I
exist in *both* places, just not often in the office. Plus I exist in
other places too at various times.

A friend of mine has it set up so it always
rings through on his cell. He can pick up either receiver, the cell or
his POTS phone. I am sure this can also be arranged with a VoIP carrier,
except that I personally wouldn't trust that technology 100%.

I *HATE* talking on the cell. Voice quality is always poor and when the
signal is poor (like around here) it is *terrible*. I just had a call
from a colleague who complained about the sharp noises in his ear due to
the flipped bits.

Running them completely parallel should not be a technical problem but
it's probably not a big enough market (for whatever reason) that the
telcos don't offer it. If you want to be able to pick up a call on a
POTS or VoIP phone and then at the spur of the moment be able to
continue the call on your cell and walk away from the house you could
possibly use a conference call service for that. But your POTS or VoIP
would need to be able to reroute the call to that conference service on
the fly.

The telcos *do* offer it. But if the two phones aren't in the same
dialing area (whatever the goofy phone company name for that is) they
charge through the nose!

I would say you are trying to make this very complicated and it's not.
I think VOIP solves all the problems I am looking to solve. Once I
realized I could take the little box with me and use it anywhere I have
Internet that made it a done deal. Now I just need to find a provider I
can be happy with.

--

Rick

 

[Joerg]

Don Y wrote:

On 8/17/2013 8:14 AM, Joerg wrote:

[All elided]

Joerg, you obviously don't need/want an automation system.

I do, and a few elements are in place. Some commercial stuff I threw out
again on account of it being unreliable (X-10).

Hopefully, you will just "drop dead" (not meant in a mean-spirited
way!) some day and never have to suffer with: vision loss, paralysis,
stroke, tremor, or any of the other "loss of ability" that would
benefit from having help performing the tasks that we all have
to perform in the course of our normal days.

My eyes are starting to lose the near-field performance. I can still see
things far a way that other people can't but even for cooking I now need
glasses. For SMT soldering a USB scope, and so on.

Watching a friend being *lifted* into bed -- unable to move more
and more parts of her body as ALS works its ravages on her
nervous system -- makes it painfully obvious how easily and
often lives are needlessly complicated by the *lack* of these
sorts of "aids".

Got a friend like that, too, except in his case it is MS. But there you
need much different things than we discussed here. Being able to control
a TV or the garage door via the LAN or whatever is the least of their
concerns. Getting a Hoyer lift installed is.

Of course, when/if you find yourself in this situation, it will
probably be too late for you to make any changes in your
environment -- other than hiring some *human* help to perform
the tasks that *could* have been performed by something far
less expensive (and INVASIVE). Or, you may just grumble and
wonder why no one addressed these problems, before: "Gee, it's
so EASY! All you need to do is..."

Realistically we won't live in this house anymore when we get to that
stage. I am a believer in downsizing in time, or going to assisted
living, not doggedly hanging on to an achieved lifestyle. Whether I'll
be able to realize when that time has come is another matter.

Good luck with that "drop dead" prospect! :

["I want to die peacefully, in my sleep, like Grandpa. Not
screaming in terror like the 42 people on the bus he was
driving at the time!"]

Don't make jokes about that, it happened. Except it was a truck and the
driver went into diabetic shock, with the foot stuck on the accelerator.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Joerg]

rickman wrote:
> On 8/17/2013 2:37 PM, Joerg wrote:

[...]

Running them completely parallel should not be a technical problem but
it's probably not a big enough market (for whatever reason) that the
telcos don't offer it. If you want to be able to pick up a call on a
POTS or VoIP phone and then at the spur of the moment be able to
continue the call on your cell and walk away from the house you could
possibly use a conference call service for that. But your POTS or VoIP
would need to be able to reroute the call to that conference service on
the fly.

The telcos *do* offer it. But if the two phones aren't in the same
dialing area (whatever the goofy phone company name for that is) they
charge through the nose!

I would say you are trying to make this very complicated and it's not. I
think VOIP solves all the problems I am looking to solve. Once I
realized I could take the little box with me and use it anywhere I have
Internet that made it a done deal. Now I just need to find a provider I
can be happy with.

Well, then good luck with a VoIP solution. Ooma has a good reputation.
Besides Jim the late Joel Koltner from our NG was also quite happy with
it, he and his wife had switched to that years ago.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 15:00:16 -0400, rickman <gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

On 8/17/2013 1:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 17 Aug 2013 03:46:12 -0400, rickman<gnuarm@gmail.com> wrote:

Measure the jitter, especially when there's lots of traffic. Setup
QoS. Then play.

Yeah well, I don't know how to do that.

http://myspeed.visualware.com/indexvoip.php

That link was posted before. It uses Java and I don't have Java on my
browser.

I couldn't find anything that does not use Java. You can measure
jitter using Wireshark to sniff VoIP traffic. I've never tried it:
<http://wiki.wireshark.org/RTP_statistics>
<http://nms.lcs.mit.edu/~hari/papers/CS294/paper/node5.html>
<http://toncar.cz/Tutorials/VoIP/VoIP_Basics_Jitter.html>

Another method is to us JPerf (xjPerf). Unfortunately, the preferred
graphical user interface in Jperf requires Java. However, iPerf is
command line and should work. There are some notes and sample outputs
for jitter at:
<http://openmaniak.com/iperf.php> (search for jitter).
<http://blog.nexcess.net/2011/11/04/testing-network-performance-and-throughput-with-iperf/>
See Scenario #3.

Note that you do NOT need to sniff a VoIP UDP packet stream, as in the
Wireshark test. There are Mac, Windoze, and Linux versions of Iperf
available.

What you should do is setup a typical computah in Iperf server mode
somewhere on the internet and run the client at your end. You won't
have the benefits of QoS unless you use the standard SIP port numbers.
Don't do that on a corporate LAN or where VoIP sessions are active or
you will make some new enemies. If you can't get anyone to cooperate,
bug me and I'll throw together a test server in the office (time
permitting).

>Maybe I should ask you to set me up with a provider and an adapter?

I'm on vacation and expect to be buried in paying work for at least 2
weeks. I probably won't have time.

>Do you understand what I want?

About 80% yes. The big mysteries are the characteristics of the
900MHz link, potential congestion due to limited bandwidth, and
coexistence with other applications. The last one is critical as I'm
finding that bandwidth hogs, such Bitorrent and DropBox are real
problems. We would need to talk on the phone first.

>What would you charge me to make it work?

Dunno. My shop rate is $75/hr for bench work. This would probably
turn into building and testing something at my office, and ship
everything to you via UPS. I don't like doing it like that because
there's always an oversight. Please switch to email if you want to
continue this.

Plan B might be easier. We talk. I recommend a service provider that
also delivers hardware. You sign up for a 30 day trial and just see
if it works for you. There will be install and network complications,
but I can hand them using remote control software (Teamviewer).

The reviews of Ooma are not good and Vonage is overpriced for my needs
at $30 a month plus I think taxes.

Careful with VoIP reviews. Users have the expectation that VoIP will
be "just like POTS". You can come close, but not in every area. For
example, I once read a scathing denunciation of some VoIP vendor by a
user complaining that support was not open after midnight and that
nobody offered to drive several hundred miles to her house to fix her
phones. Also, one line reviews can usually be discarded.

If Ooma and Vonage are inadequate, there are smaller providers that
will also sell you hardware. I'm not thrilled with those that supply
VoIP routers. That solves the QoS setup and port forwarding problems,
but also creates coexistence problem with other common devices. The
problem is that I don't know whom else to recommend. I don't do many
appliance type VoIP installation.

Why is it no one can tell you in
advance what the taxes are?

Because the courts decided that taxes should be calculated by the
customers address, and not the vendors. So if you deal with a
national vendor, they have to calculate the taxes to include all the
state and local taxes required at the buyers location. They also have
to pay all those taxes to the various taxing agencies, but you don't
see any of that.

I don't actually have a "decor" so I don't need to match any colors.
Does that make you feel better?

No. You probably have an "ambience", "theme", or "style" to replace
your missing "decor". Either way it has to match. It's not really a
trivial problem. Trying to find a place to put the black boxes and
wires is a major part of an installation. Vendors don't make it any
easier by putting smooth rounded top on their boxes, so nothing can
placed on top of their box. At least the hi-fi and home theater
designers have recognized the benefits of stacking boxes, but that
hasn't come to the attention of network appliance designers quite yet.

Incidentally, I usually carry at least 2 new routers in my vehicle.
One is black (Linksys) while the other is white (Netgear). I've had
to amuse myself for many minutes while the homeowner considers the
relative merits of each color.

Yeah, but Future Nine requires you to be knowledgeable in the operation
of the system and I'm not. That one in particular I can't even figure
out what they charge and what I have to buy. I bet you can't either
unless you read it off your statement. Their web site is horrible.

Correct on all counts. Being the lowest priced vendor has its costs.

I don't think "Just some buzzwords and understanding of how things work"
is sufficient for picking a vendor.

True. But I think you got my point. You need to at least know
something about the technology to ask the right questions.

My problem is the vendors don't
explain their service well enough for *anyone* to know what they offer
and what they charge.

True. I must admit that even I don't understand some rate schedules.

For those that roll their own, no explanation is necessary.
For those that don't roll their own, no explanation is possible.

For example, I still don't know if I have to pay
for E911 service with Callcentric after two emails from them.

<http://www.callcentric.com/faq/23>
<http://www.callcentric.com/911/>
Kinda looks like E911 service is mandatory, bundled, and billed as
part of the monthly charges.
"You must register with Callcentric the physical location where
you will utilize your service for each Callcentric account.
(...)
You will register your initial location of use when you purchase
a rate plan or a phone number."

>Was that a yes or a no?

Yeah, not very clear at all. It kinda reads like it is assumed that
everyone will get E911 service.

They qualify this with "and have at least one
service under your account"... what does that mean?

An account is a login and a monthly invoice.
A service is a single phone number. You can have many services or
phone numbers under a single account. Not the best choice words, but
good enough methinks.

Why would I have an
account without a service?

The usual way such things are done is to first create an account (so
they can send you a bill) and then add services to the account. It's
much the same with some cellular MVNO's such as PagePlus.

So if I get incoming calls only I still have
to pay for E911 even though I can't call 911???

If you only subscribe to call-in service, it is my understanding that
certain outgoing numbers still function, such as 611 and 911. However,
I have to check on that first as it varies with vendor. The
assumption is that 911 *ALWAYS* works, even on POTS lines used
exclusively for DSL, unactivated cell phones, and some pay phones.

There is no need to consider your system since I won't be using anything
remotely like your system.

I thought you wanted a shopping list of features that you might want
to consider adding or using?

How about considering *my* system? One
adapter and a POTS phone, maybe two since that seems to be a fairly
standard service provided at no extra cost.

Boring... Ok, get a Linksys PAP2-NA. It's cheap, easy to configure,
plenty of versatility, lots of online help, small, portable, and
supported by literally all the VoIP vendors. About $35.
<http://www.callcentric.com/support/device/linksys/pap2>
Make sure it's a real PAP2-NA as you don't want one that's vendor
locked to a service provider. Configure it and sign up for an account
with any vendor that doesn't have annual contracts. Try it for a
month and see what happens.

See anything useful?

Mostly no except for the three locations. I might find a use for
softphone when I am not at any of my locations but am using the laptop
on the internet.

You might look into Callcentric "extensions" which are much the same
as simultaneous ring:
<http://www.callcentric.com/faq/35>

I need a phone replacement, that's all.

Resistance is futile. You will be educated (in VoIP).

Not this way. I expect it will be even more painful.

No pain, no gain. The only difference between drinking water and
drowning is the rate at which the water is consumed. Try going a bit
slower on the VoIP learning exercise and it may be somewhat less
painful.

The cell service here is poor
and I am spending more on minutes that I would like.

I've installed a few of these for such situations. If the service is
poor, they will help. If the service is non-existent, it won't help:
http://www.zboost.com
http://www.zboost.com/solutions-products/home-office/yx545.html
Yagi or panel antenna on the roof. RG-6a/u coax to the box. About
50ft indoor range. Photo of the insides:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/zBoost/

Wow! $400 times two. My roommate has ATT and I'm on Verizon, so we
would need nearly $1000 worth of equipment to improve the signal.

Nope. Only one device is needed. The one I mentioned does 800/1900
Mhz on all the service providers except Nextel. However, it will not
do 4G data on 700/1700/2100/etc. You can find them on eBay for about
$240.

I
think VOIP is a better solution. Cell phone suck even when they get a
good signal in my opinion. On the other hand, my roommate lives on his
iPhone.

Show the zBoost page to your roommate and maybe he'll buy one and let
you use it.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[miso]

With FOSS, well linux distros, you can pick one that doesn't upgrade
much. FreeBSD for instance. On a web server, less is more. Because a
server spends all it's time on the public internet, every program is an
attack vector.

Regarding routers, buy one that runs DDWRT or the other similar open
source firmware. That way, your old router has a path to upgrade.
Otherwise the manufacturer won't bother to upgrade your firmware because
they already made their money.

Power supplies do not have to be crap. They are crap because they
OEM/ODM farms them out to fly by night firms that in turn have them OEMd
by the worst of the Chinese assembly houses. This is true of your basic
wall wart. Not so much with the power supply for your notebook.

When I met someone who did QA at a software company, my reply was "Oh, I
didn't know software has QA. I figured they let the customers test it."
Amongst all the peddlers, Oracle has to be the worst at this.