Lead acid battery desulfination?

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Mon, 28 Jul 2014 08:16:37 +0100) it happened Charlie+
<charlie@xxx.net> wrote in <m3qbt95jfd3dgktgqemj0eb0af79gmkigg@4ax.com>:

I ran a commercial desulphator on a below par but still in use car (12V)
8 year old OEM (filled for life) battery for 2 months measuring the 100
Amp discharge voltage accurately at weekly intervals from prior to use
to the end. The desulphator was doing a lot, car wouldnt start after 3
days without recharging! The battery was fully charged to peak prior to
each measurement.
Here is a pic of the desulphator output while working: The bursts are at
about 63KHz. https://www.dropbox.com/s/mzc653wc1z439e7/Imgp1174.jpg
Conclusion: Its a snake oil solution, just doesnt work on this test with
a premium battery that has never been mistreated and is just loosing
peak cold cranking capacity, measurements showed 10.2v (after 10 seconds
under 100A load) from start to finish. A brand new battery under the
same test only shows about .5v more, its a fairly severe test. C+

Yes I am testing much the same way, but with lower current, and a stopwatch.
I had 18- seconds before the 200 mA @ 16 V method.
and now 25+ seconds after using that method for some weeks.

Hope this pulsing helps, if not I will try that AC variac method...
Do not have the variac, but a 300 W audio amp with several transformers and PC as signal generator.
Fun
Looking forward to it

Here is my pulse charge impulse;
http://panteltje.com/pub/pulse_charge_IMG_4504.JPG
5V / div.
The top is at 17.5 or so.... 15 kHz epetition rate.
Some voltage drop over the cable, not measuring directly at battery terminals.

 

[Glenn]

On 27/07/14 22.52, Kevin McMurtrie wrote:

In article<lr3fno$e37$1@news.datemas.de>,
Jan Panteltje<panteltje@yahoo.com> wrote:

Been trying to 'desulfinate' a 13Ah lead acid battery now for a few weeks.
The method I used is to run 200 mA at 16V into a 12V battery.
The battery had only 1/10 of capacity,
now it has 1/8.
Takes too long for my liking, would several month that way.

So did some googling, and found this circuit diagram only:
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/pjpeg/f1116c552716baf0a54f00503
08e5d20c651ef3c.pjpg

Basically a flyback where the flyback impulse goes into the battery.
You can buy that sort of stuff on ebay too (30$ ex shipping):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Top-Selling-12V-8A-Negative-Pulse-Desulfation-car-bat
tery-charger-/171399004719?pt=Battery_Chargers&hash=item27e82d422f
But I thought why bother, I have such a flyback powering some HV (for a
helium neon laser).
So I took a diode from the collector and put that back into my battery.
Been running now a few hours, about few hundred mA average...
nice pulse, 15 kHz repetition, will leave it on some time

Anybody any experience bringing old sulfated lead acid batteries back alive?
Circuits?

I've tried a couple of charger tricks:
- A PWM regulator that maximizes ripple current
- Momentarily draw a huge current

Periodically drawing a huge current seems to work. It fixes the case
where a battery stops drawing current and won't charge. I don't know if
that's sulfate buildup or just welding some conductive paths in the
sponge lead.


In the end I came to the conclusion that there's no good way to use lead
acid batteries. They're heavy, short-lived, and unreliable. The sponge
lead falls off. The lead grids crack. Sulfate buildup kills them. The
rivets between cells corrode. They randomly go high impedance for a
while.

Nickel Metal Hydride performs better in all manners except that they're
difficult to charge. I use only lithium batteries now. There are some
different options for power density versus ruggedness there.

Hi Kevin and Jan

Please note that NiFe-accumulators has high internal resistance compared
to Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4).

-

Have you tried Edisons NiFe-accumulators?:

Oct 15, 2013, NiFe Batteries Said to Outperform VRLAs:
http://powerelectronics.com/batteries/nife-batteries-said-outperform-vrlas
"...
When energy available over the entire cycle life of a battery is
considered, the Atlas 160 product cost is one-tenth that of a lead acid
battery with similar name plate capacity.
...."
http://www.encell.com/
http://www.encell.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=8&Itemid=111
http://www.encell.com/uploads/ProductDatasheet%20-%20Alternative%20and%20Renewable%20Energy%20Storage%20Solutions.pdf
Citat: "...
Battery Cycle Life 11,000 cycles
Battery Life on Float 30yrs.
Battery Storage Life 85yrs
....
Discharge Temperature (°C): -10* to +90 [the 90 might be Fahrenheit]
Charge Temperature (°C): -20 to +90 [the 90 might be Fahrenheit]
Storage Temperature (°C): -40 to +60
....
DI Water Top Up Frequency 3 mos. Typical [<-akkumulatoren er tørstig
hver 3. mĂĽned]
...."
Iron Edison USA Series Nickel Iron (NiFe) Battery:
http://ironedison.com/iron-edison-usa-series-nickel-iron-nife-battery
Citat: "...
This battery is rated for 10,000+ cycles at 80% Depth of discharge.
....
Optional integrated watering system – makes maintenance fast and easy
...."
http://ironedison.com/images/products/Iron%20Edison/USA/Accelerated%20Cycle%20Life%20Testing.pdf
Citat: "...
Have Conducted Extensive Abuse and Accelerated Life Testing for 2 Years
....
Encell Proprietary and Company Confidential
...."
http://ironedison.com/images/products/Iron%20Edison/USA/Iron%20Edison%20USA%20-%20Discharge%20Rates.jpg

-

ironedison.com probably bought from:
http://nickelcells.com/pdf/manuf/TN_nickel-iron-changhong-specs.pdf
https://web.archive.org/web/20130805022454/http://www.nickelcells.com/pdf/manuf/TN_nickel-iron-changhong-specs.pdf

NiFe producers:
http://nickelcells.com/hersteller.html

-
-
-

Now LiFePO4:

Baffled by batteries?
CHOOSING THE RIGHT BATTERY:
http://www.rcmodelreviews.com/baffledbybatteries.shtml
Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) and A123 batteries:
http://www.rcmodelreviews.com/baffledbybatteries4.shtml
Quote: "...
Imagine if we could combine the safety and durability of nicads with the
capacity and light-weight of LiPos. Wouldn't that be the best of all worlds?

Well that's pretty much what you get with the latest battery technology
known as Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4).

Batteries based on this technology have almost the same power to weight
ratio as LiPos but are far more tollerant of over and under-charging.

In a situation where a LiPo might explode into flames, the LiFePO4 cell
will probably just vent some harmless gas.
....
The capabilities of an A123 battery are truly impressive -- with a
2300mAH pack being able to deliver currents of up to 100A for 10 seconds
or more without damage. That's a 40C rating.

A standard LiFePO4 battery by comparison, may have only a 3-5C rating
which is perfectly adequate for most RC applications but nowhere near as
suited to hi-current applciations (such as electric power) as a true A123.
...."

lifebatt.com: Sandia report:
http://www.lifebatt.com/sandiareport.pdf
https://web.archive.org/web/20140220090901/http://www.lifebatt.com/sandiareport.pdf
Citat: "...
Test results have indicated, that the LiFeBatt battery technology can
function up to a 10C discharge rate with minimal energy loss compared to
the 1 h discharge rate (1C).
...."

Also in 12V packages:
http://www.lifebatt.eu/index.php?lang=en
http://www.lifebatt.eu/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=15&Itemid=29&lang=en

Might be LiFePO4 (lifebatt.com link here):
http://www.goodwolfe.com/
http://www.goodwolfe.com/modules.html

Small 12V packages:
http://www.buya123batteries.com/
http://www.buya123batteries.com/ALM_12V7_p/400520-001.htm

-

Nail penetration testing A123 Li-ion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rb_J2QQ0k-4

LiFePo4 crashtest - Lithium Ionen Crashtest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p21iZVFHEZk

LiFe safer than LiPo?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XymqQ-YlfJ0

-

Don't use non-LiFePO4 accumulators:

Nail penetration testing Standard Li-ion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f30fBFitkSM

LiPo Explosion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9mcNvOGKtI

Glenn

 

[Glenn]

On 27/07/14 20.17, Jan Panteltje wrote:
....

Anybody any experience bringing old sulfated lead acid batteries back alive?
Circuits?

Here are some circuits::

Rick's Pic based Lead Acid battery pulser / desulfator V0.5 page:
https://web.archive.org/web/20091027114503/http://geocities.com/fun_4_me_now20012000/pulserv0_5/pulserV0.5.html

Lead Acid Battery Desulfation Pulse Generator
Some help and information for builders:
https://web.archive.org/web/20070928044215/http://www.shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm

Chapter 10: Getting the Most from your Batteries:
http://www.buchmann.ca/chap10-page1.asp

Lead Acid Battery Desulfation:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080212180917/http://p198.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation


The truth about desulfation:

Penn State (2013, January 4). Researchers seek longer battery life for
electric locomotive. ScienceDaily:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130104143654.htm
Quote: "...
"We wanted to reverse the sulfation to rejuvenate the battery and bring
it back to life," said Christopher Rahn, professor of mechanical
engineering.
....
"We desulfated it, and we increased its capacity," said Rahn. "We didn't
increase it all the way to brand new. We weren't able to do that, but we
did get a big boost."

The researchers increased the cell capacity by 41 percent and the
overall battery capacity by 30 percent. Even better results might have
occurred if sulfation were the only aging mechanism at play, but the
researchers found other factors reduced capacity, as well.
...."

Glenn

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Mon, 28 Jul 2014 12:36:03 +0200) it happened Glenn
<glenn2233@gmail.com> wrote in <53d627ba$0$295$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>:

LiPo Explosion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9mcNvOGKtI

Glenn

Yes I have a model airplane, 'Laser Arrow' that has same Lipo.
Those guys make mistakes.
You always need a very big pliers at hand to take out lipo if it burns....

So far no explosions here.
Vertical takeoff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYDGTd5ND-4

I have tried to make it hover, no luck so far...

Here a similar one in action:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hX_pRKxQA9g

So far I have added GPS, multiple way points, enemy target tracking,
FPV with Sony starlight camera (night flight), some other top secret stuff.
Mainly use it to bring diamonds across the border ;-)
PICs, some of the soft is on my site.
Video down link is at 5 GHz,
160 km/h
I like delta wings.

Much better than F35

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Mon, 28 Jul 2014 12:51:23 +0200) it happened Glenn
<glenn2233@gmail.com> wrote in <53d62b52$0$305$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>:

On 27/07/14 20.17, Jan Panteltje wrote:
...
Anybody any experience bringing old sulfated lead acid batteries back alive?
Circuits?

Here are some circuits::

Rick's Pic based Lead Acid battery pulser / desulfator V0.5 page:
https://web.archive.org/web/20091027114503/http://geocities.com/fun_4_me_now20012000/pulserv0_5/pulserV0.5.html

Aha, diode other way around...

Lead Acid Battery Desulfation Pulse Generator
Some help and information for builders:
https://web.archive.org/web/20070928044215/http://www.shaka.com/~kalepa/desulf.htm

battery resonance?
Or lead resonace ;-)

Chapter 10: Getting the Most from your Batteries:
http://www.buchmann.ca/chap10-page1.asp

Lead Acid Battery Desulfation:
https://web.archive.org/web/20080212180917/http://p198.ezboard.com/bleadacidbatterydesulfation


The truth about desulfation:

Penn State (2013, January 4). Researchers seek longer battery life for
electric locomotive. ScienceDaily:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/01/130104143654.htm
Quote: "...
"We wanted to reverse the sulfation to rejuvenate the battery and bring
it back to life," said Christopher Rahn, professor of mechanical
engineering.
...
"We desulfated it, and we increased its capacity," said Rahn. "We didn't
increase it all the way to brand new. We weren't able to do that, but we
did get a big boost."

The researchers increased the cell capacity by 41 percent and the
overall battery capacity by 30 percent. Even better results might have
occurred if sulfation were the only aging mechanism at play, but the
researchers found other factors reduced capacity, as well.
..."

Glenn

Well, that gives some hours reading...

 

[Glenn]

On 28/07/14 12.54, Jan Panteltje wrote:
....

So far no explosions here.
Vertical takeoff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYDGTd5ND-4
....
Much better than F35

This is not electrical, but nevertheless funny:

Very STOL dog house? And seems to be able to hover:

Flying ThingZ Flying Dog House:
http://flyingthingz.com/products.html

Who let the DOGS out! Flying Dog House:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSgQH688Rzo

Glenn

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Mon, 28 Jul 2014 14:01:29 +0200) it happened Glenn
<glenn2233@gmail.com> wrote in <53d63bc0$0$296$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>:

On 28/07/14 12.54, Jan Panteltje wrote:
...
So far no explosions here.
Vertical takeoff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYDGTd5ND-4
...
Much better than F35



This is not electrical, but nevertheless funny:

Very STOL dog house? And seems to be able to hover:

Flying ThingZ Flying Dog House:
http://flyingthingz.com/products.html

Who let the DOGS out! Flying Dog House:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSgQH688Rzo

Snoopy, cool!

Glenn

I was considering buying one of these:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIJINiK9azc
those are filled with helium, they move by wagging the tail left and right,
IR remote.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 18:17:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Anybody any experience bringing old sulfated lead acid batteries back alive?
Circuits?

Yes, sorta. I've had lousy luck with pulse desulfaters. What seems
to happen is that chunks of lead fall off the mesh along with the lead
sulfate (PbSO4). From the literature, I could not find any evidence
of chemical action in the process, so I guessed(tm) that what was
really happening is that the pulses were shaking the plates causing
the brittle lead sulfate to fall off. I just happen to have a paint
shaker available, so I put the failed batteries (wet cell and gel
cells) in the paint shaker with the terminals pointing up, and let it
vibrate for about 10 minutes. That destroyed several cheap automobile
batteries when the plates fell apart, but managed to partly rejuvenate
3 out of about 8 or 10 UPS batteries, which were a mix of gel and AGM
batteries. I think it worked for gel, but not for AGM. I suspect
that the reason the shaker didn't work for AGM batteries is that the
glass matt mesh traps the lead sulfate. The 10 minutes is arbitrary
and probably not optimum. I ran a discharge test with my West Mtn
Radio CBA-II on one of the paint shaker rejuvenated 12v 7A Panasonic
gel batteries, which shows about 60% of normal capacity and a higher
than normal self discharge rate. It ran my home UPS for an additional
2 years before I declared it dead (again).

Obviously more work is needed for this method. As I see it, the
problem is that when the lead sulfate breaks off, it doesn't just
settle to the bottom of the battery tank as it would with a deep
discharge wet cell battery. To make that happen, I think a centrifuge
might take care of transporting the lead sulfate to the bottom. Even
so, there's no space in a gel cell for the lead sulfate to collect. By
concentrating the conductive lead sulfate at the bottom, near the ends
of the plates, I may have made the problem worse. The only way to
know is to do an autopsy on a paint shaker and centrifuge treated
battery and see what's really happening inside. Since I don't believe
anyone would actually for a machine to automate the process, I haven't
bothered.

Also, try to charge the battery BEFORE shaking. The idea is to get as
much lead out of solution and back on the plates to strengthen the
plates so that they survive shaking. I think that's what killed the
wet cells as I shook them in a discharged condition with little lead
on the plates.

Now that I've almost mastered raising the dead (battery), I'll work on
the walking on electrolyte part. Good luck.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 16:18:56 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

The telephone system routinely rebuilt their batteries after aging
and sulphination lowered the battery capacity. They re-smelted the
lead and that sure got rid of the sulphate! It's not just new paint disease,
the new battery really DOES solve the problem.

Not always. Sometimes the telcos donate the batteries to a worthy
recipient, like our local ham radio club:
<http://members.cruzio.com/~jeffl/k6bj/K6BJ%20Repeater/Batteries.jpg>
I think these were donated by Pacific Bell in about 1990. They are a
little low in voltage and capacity, but otherwise ok. Not bad for 25
year old batteries. I have no idea what are the current policies on
battery recycling or donation.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Mon, 28 Jul 2014 08:14:43 -0700) it happened Jeff Liebermann
<jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in <akoct95st86h5p3u11a2a3s7fdvj7iilbe@4ax.com>:

On Sun, 27 Jul 2014 18:17:26 GMT, Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com
wrote:

Anybody any experience bringing old sulfated lead acid batteries back alive?
Circuits?

Yes, sorta. I've had lousy luck with pulse desulfaters. What seems
to happen is that chunks of lead fall off the mesh along with the lead
sulfate (PbSO4). From the literature, I could not find any evidence
of chemical action in the process, so I guessed(tm) that what was
really happening is that the pulses were shaking the plates causing
the brittle lead sulfate to fall off. I just happen to have a paint
shaker available, so I put the failed batteries (wet cell and gel
cells) in the paint shaker with the terminals pointing up, and let it
vibrate for about 10 minutes. That destroyed several cheap automobile
batteries when the plates fell apart, but managed to partly rejuvenate
3 out of about 8 or 10 UPS batteries, which were a mix of gel and AGM
batteries. I think it worked for gel, but not for AGM. I suspect
that the reason the shaker didn't work for AGM batteries is that the
glass matt mesh traps the lead sulfate. The 10 minutes is arbitrary
and probably not optimum. I ran a discharge test with my West Mtn
Radio CBA-II on one of the paint shaker rejuvenated 12v 7A Panasonic
gel batteries, which shows about 60% of normal capacity and a higher
than normal self discharge rate. It ran my home UPS for an additional
2 years before I declared it dead (again).

Obviously more work is needed for this method. As I see it, the
problem is that when the lead sulfate breaks off, it doesn't just
settle to the bottom of the battery tank as it would with a deep
discharge wet cell battery. To make that happen, I think a centrifuge
might take care of transporting the lead sulfate to the bottom. Even
so, there's no space in a gel cell for the lead sulfate to collect. By
concentrating the conductive lead sulfate at the bottom, near the ends
of the plates, I may have made the problem worse. The only way to
know is to do an autopsy on a paint shaker and centrifuge treated
battery and see what's really happening inside. Since I don't believe
anyone would actually for a machine to automate the process, I haven't
bothered.

Also, try to charge the battery BEFORE shaking. The idea is to get as
much lead out of solution and back on the plates to strengthen the
plates so that they survive shaking. I think that's what killed the
wet cells as I shook them in a discharged condition with little lead
on the plates.

Now that I've almost mastered raising the dead (battery), I'll work on
the walking on electrolyte part. Good luck.

Thank you, yes I noticed somebody else who did shake the batteries
but I think once the sulfur is at the bottom they say it will no longer react..
They say then the battery is dead.
Mine is still running on pulse now, in a few weeks? I will do a capacity test again.
If this did not help I will try Robert Bear's method.
Also I have, at the same time, some light bulb doing discharge (between pulses),
somebody wrote that helps.
It is just experimenting really...

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2014 16:06:49 GMT, Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>Thank you, yes I noticed somebody else who did shake the batteries

Good to know. I thought I was the only one insane enough to try it.

but I think once the sulfur is at the bottom they say it will no longer react..
They say then the battery is dead.

Sorta. When a wet cell battery is discharged, lead sulfate is in the
electrolyte solution. When recharged, you get metallic lead on the
negative plate, and lead dioxide on the positive plate. On a dry
charge battery, the manufacturer smears lead sulfate paste on the
terminals. It's not like lead suflate is some kind battery poison.
The problem is that solid lead sulfate can end up on the wrong place
in the battery, like between the plates, causing a short circuit. What
the various pulse electrical removal techniques do is try to break
loose these shorts and hopefully have the lead sulfate drop to the
bottom of the tank. The problem is that the lead sulfate contains
lead needed to replate the plates, which is not going to happen if the
lead is locked up as a solid on the bottom of the tank.

<http://jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/carfaq2.htm>
Note the large gap between the bottom of the plates and the bottom of
the tank in 'DEEP CYCLE BATTERY CONSTRUCTION' exploded view.

Mine is still running on pulse now, in a few weeks? I will do a capacity test again.
If this did not help I will try Robert Bear's method.

His series capacitor and AC power method seems like a variation on the
shake method, but running at 60 Hz instead of a much lower frequency
in the paint shaker. I think I can transfer more energy with the
paint shaker, but I'm not sure.

Also I have, at the same time, some light bulb doing discharge (between pulses),
somebody wrote that helps.
It is just experimenting really...

I would be interested in the results and your conclusions.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2014 09:32:11 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:
(blah-blah-blah)

More wisdom on battery sulfation and how it works:
<http://jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/carfaq16.htm>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 29/07/14 10:54, Tom Miller wrote:

"Clifford Heath" <no.spam@please.net> wrote in message
http://cjh.polyplex.org/electronics/ryobi_lifepo4/index.html

In one of your pictures there is a bare wire soldered to the positive
terminal and routed down over the edge of the cell. That is a dangerous
condition as the only insulation is the green plastic shrink wrap over
the cell. If it breaches, it will directly short out the cell with lots
of fun to follow.

Good catch. I'll add extra insulation.

 

On Tuesday, July 29, 2014 1:01:09 PM UTC-4, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Mon, 28 Jul 2014 21:33:36 -0700, Robert Baer

robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote:



* My method is 100% electronic, not mechanical...



Well, since chemical desulfation is of dubious value, you don't like

mechanical desulfation, and I don't like electrical desulfation,

what's left? Perhaps faith healing the battery or magic incantations?

Maybe congress should pass a law outlawing sulfation? Or maybe a

grass roots campaign of "Citizens Against Sulfation" will work? Or

perhaps a 99 year endless research program to investigate the causes,

effects, and cures for battery sulfation? Considering these available

alternatives, I would think the Occam's Razor suggests that mechanical

would be the correct method because it's the simplest.



--

Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com

150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com

Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com

Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Sulphation is more than just a layering on the lead plates, it actually cracks them too, permanently damaging them beyond repair. De-sulphation is a rip.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 05:44:08 GMT, Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com>
wrote:

Yes, based on all that it is probably cheaper to use LiFePO4.
more charge-discharge cylces compensates for buying new lead based batteries.
Lighter too.

New and improved Lithium batteries are coming:
<http://hothardware.com/News/Stanford-Researchers-Claim-They-Found-The-Holy-Grail-Of-Battery-Life/>
No clue on cost, performance, delivery, ecology, lifetime, etc but it
looks "interesting". All one has to do is figure out how to prevent
metallic lithium and wet air from starting a very hot fire.

[Q] What's the difference between a very high energy density battery
and a small incendiary bomb?
[A] Not much.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Mon, 28 Jul 2014 21:33:36 -0700, Robert Baer
<robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote:

>* My method is 100% electronic, not mechanical...

Well, since chemical desulfation is of dubious value, you don't like
mechanical desulfation, and I don't like electrical desulfation,
what's left? Perhaps faith healing the battery or magic incantations?
Maybe congress should pass a law outlawing sulfation? Or maybe a
grass roots campaign of "Citizens Against Sulfation" will work? Or
perhaps a 99 year endless research program to investigate the causes,
effects, and cures for battery sulfation? Considering these available
alternatives, I would think the Occam's Razor suggests that mechanical
would be the correct method because it's the simplest.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Tue, 29 Jul 2014 09:54:37 -0700) it happened Jeff Liebermann
<jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in <70kft95am2e6vbaj5s377mf0665ph26kp0@4ax.com>:

On Tue, 29 Jul 2014 05:44:08 GMT, Jan Panteltje <panteltje@yahoo.com
wrote:

Yes, based on all that it is probably cheaper to use LiFePO4.
more charge-discharge cylces compensates for buying new lead based batteries.
Lighter too.

New and improved Lithium batteries are coming:
http://hothardware.com/News/Stanford-Researchers-Claim-They-Found-The-Holy-Grail-Of-Battery-Life/
No clue on cost, performance, delivery, ecology, lifetime, etc but it
looks "interesting". All one has to do is figure out how to prevent
metallic lithium and wet air from starting a very hot fire.

[Q] What's the difference between a very high energy density battery
and a small incendiary bomb?
[A] Not much.

nano nano stuff may be very environmental unfriendly.
The minuscule particles can enter our cells it seems.
Now imagine thousands of pulverized or burned nano nano batteries..

You would get the same paranoia as with asbestos now.

Anyways I have stated in sci.physics that if most of the 100% better battery papers
that we see about every 2 weeks were true,
then we would be able to power NY from a battery the size of a sugar cube,
for a thousand years.
Because current_battery_capacity^n is a very large number...
By now more then e=m.c^2 shows there is energy in that amount of mass...
LOL

 

[Shaun]

"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message news:lr3fno$e37$1@news.datemas.de...

Been trying to 'desulfinate' a 13Ah lead acid battery now for a few weeks.
The method I used is to run 200 mA at 16V into a 12V battery.
The battery had only 1/10 of capacity,
now it has 1/8.
Takes too long for my liking, would several month that way.

So did some googling, and found this circuit diagram only:
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/pjpeg/f1116c552716baf0a54f0050308e5d20c651ef3c.pjpg

Basically a flyback where the flyback impulse goes into the battery.
You can buy that sort of stuff on ebay too (30$ ex shipping):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Top-Selling-12V-8A-Negative-Pulse-Desulfation-car-battery-charger-/171399004719?pt=Battery_Chargers&hash=item27e82d422f
But I thought why bother, I have such a flyback powering some HV (for a
helium neon laser).
So I took a diode from the collector and put that back into my battery.
Been running now a few hours, about few hundred mA average...
nice pulse, 15 kHz repetition, will leave it on some time

Anybody any experience bringing old sulfated lead acid batteries back alive?
Circuits?

For the amount of time and expense and effort, just buy a new car battery or
gel cell. If the battery is 4 + years old, it's no longer going to retain
capacity.

Shaun

 

[Robert Baer]

Shaun wrote:

"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message news:lr3fno$e37$1@news.datemas.de...

Been trying to 'desulfinate' a 13Ah lead acid battery now for a few weeks.
The method I used is to run 200 mA at 16V into a 12V battery.
The battery had only 1/10 of capacity,
now it has 1/8.
Takes too long for my liking, would several month that way.

So did some googling, and found this circuit diagram only:
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/pjpeg/f1116c552716baf0a54f0050308e5d20c651ef3c.pjpg


Basically a flyback where the flyback impulse goes into the battery.
You can buy that sort of stuff on ebay too (30$ ex shipping):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Top-Selling-12V-8A-Negative-Pulse-Desulfation-car-battery-charger-/171399004719?pt=Battery_Chargers&hash=item27e82d422f

But I thought why bother, I have such a flyback powering some HV (for a
helium neon laser).
So I took a diode from the collector and put that back into my battery.
Been running now a few hours, about few hundred mA average...
nice pulse, 15 kHz repetition, will leave it on some time

Anybody any experience bringing old sulfated lead acid batteries back
alive?
Circuits?

For the amount of time and expense and effort, just buy a new car
battery or gel cell. If the battery is 4 + years old, it's no longer
going to retain capacity.

Shaun

Excuse me, but i described a simple circuit that works.
Used the scheme on a Willard motorcycle battery that was made "dry
charged" and was about 15 years old before acid was put in it.
It took about 150VAC to get a few milliamps thru it at first.
Got it fully recovered; short circuit current was in excess of 200 amps.

 

[mike]

On 7/30/2014 10:37 PM, Robert Baer wrote:

Shaun wrote:


"Jan Panteltje" wrote in message news:lr3fno$e37$1@news.datemas.de...

Been trying to 'desulfinate' a 13Ah lead acid battery now for a few
weeks.
The method I used is to run 200 mA at 16V into a 12V battery.
The battery had only 1/10 of capacity,
now it has 1/8.
Takes too long for my liking, would several month that way.

So did some googling, and found this circuit diagram only:
http://images.yuku.com.s3.amazonaws.com/image/pjpeg/f1116c552716baf0a54f0050308e5d20c651ef3c.pjpg



Basically a flyback where the flyback impulse goes into the battery.
You can buy that sort of stuff on ebay too (30$ ex shipping):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Top-Selling-12V-8A-Negative-Pulse-Desulfation-car-battery-charger-/171399004719?pt=Battery_Chargers&hash=item27e82d422f


But I thought why bother, I have such a flyback powering some HV (for a
helium neon laser).
So I took a diode from the collector and put that back into my battery.
Been running now a few hours, about few hundred mA average...
nice pulse, 15 kHz repetition, will leave it on some time

Anybody any experience bringing old sulfated lead acid batteries back
alive?
Circuits?

For the amount of time and expense and effort, just buy a new car
battery or gel cell. If the battery is 4 + years old, it's no longer
going to retain capacity.

Shaun



Excuse me, but i described a simple circuit that works.
Used the scheme on a Willard motorcycle battery that was made "dry
charged" and was about 15 years old before acid was put in it.
It took about 150VAC to get a few milliamps thru it at first.
Got it fully recovered; short circuit current was in excess of 200 amps.

OK, but how has the technique worked on a cell that's been wet and
discharged for 15 years?