Jihad needs scientists

"unsettled" <unsettled@nonsense.com> wrote in message
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Lloyd Parker wrote:

In article <ehi3q8$8qk_004@s784.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

In article <ehafo7$ot9$1@leto.cc.emory.edu>,
lparker@emory.edu (Lloyd Parker) wrote:

In article <ehab1j$8qk_001@s949.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

In the US, the federal government isn't allowed to do anything.

Except start wars.

When the nation is threatened, yes. It's in our Constitution.

And is it unconstitutional to do so when we're not threatened?

In our system, anything not prohibited is permitted.
Uh, sorry, no...the Constitution *specifically* limits the powers of the
Federal government to those listed in the Constitution.

Eric Lucas
 
On Mon, 23 Oct 06 10:54:23 GMT, lparker@emory.edu (Lloyd Parker)
wrote:

In article <bt4nj2hg7452pfc15b7d76h3c4p6p4n6n5@4ax.com>,
John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Wed, 18 Oct 2006 18:03:45 GMT, <lucasea@sbcglobal.net> wrote:


"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:tidcj2hc7r29unnup0qjddadothkt473q2@4ax.com...
On Wed, 18 Oct 06 11:51:42 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

In article <e9ednZ8s0K3l2ajYRVnyuA@pipex.net>,
"T Wake" <usenet.es7at@gishpuppy.com> wrote:

"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4535424A.C08609A3@hotmail.com...


T Wake wrote:

lucasea@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message

Certainly a lot of the details of Darwin's theories have been
subject
to
question and modification over the years. What has not changed is
the
basic idea of evolution.

Very true. There is a conflict of terminology and if the people on the
radio
show were talking about "Darwin's theories" specifically they are a
bit
behind the curve. Modern evolutionary theory has progressed beyond the
specifics Darwin described.

I've noticed that there is now a common tendency for those who reckon
they
know
better to dismiss such things as 'just theories' as if that meant they
had
no
vailidity !


I love that phrase "just theories." It really makes me smile when some
creationist goes on about how "evolution is just a theory."

Like Newtonian Gravity isn't "just" a theory. :)

Yes. It is just a theory. It is the human race's best
guess at how nature and its laws work.

It's a pretty good theory but ignores relativistic effects. It's
quantitatively precise in most practical situations, but not all
situations, so it is indeed flawed, and not a "best guess."


Yes, all theories are flawed by definition, and the only measure of a theory
is its usefulness--i.e., how well it predicts or explains a certain effect,
combined with how easy it is to use (i.e., simple).

The trouble is, the Creation Science/Intelligent Design people use that
"flawed" to mean "useless", in order to aggrandize their belief system,
which provides complete certainty and Truth, despite being nearly useless in
explaining and predicting natural phenomena.

Eric Lucas


By the standards set for decent scientific theories, evolution has a
long way to go. It's still very fuzzy about explaining and predicting
phenomena. It seems to be the only "science" that, confronted with
true mysteries, seems to accept, and be relieved and satisfied by,
unproven conjecture.


You are lying.
And you are ranting. Lying is at least creative.

John
 
On Mon, 23 Oct 06 10:55:36 GMT, lparker@emory.edu (Lloyd Parker)
wrote:

In article <8t5nj29md56ugu8pm4epmitj8tgp66v2of@4ax.com>,
John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 14:21:12 +0100, "T Wake"
usenet.es7at@gishpuppy.com> wrote:


Saying "I believe in evolution" is a valid sentence.

No, it is not valid within this context. You do know that
the Creed starts out with "I believe...".

It is still valid. I honestly believe in Newtonian Gravity being the best
description of gravity in the domain in which it applies. This is not
something which can be "known" as tomorrow some one may come up with a
better description.

Does this open the floodgates for the Religious Right to send me to hell?

Can you cite any modern case of the Religious Right denying the
accuracy of Newton's law of gravitation?


Well, there was an Onion story...

Strawman indeed. Since the
time of Galileo's house arrest, the western churches have
progressively conceded to science the domain of physical reality. I've
read, and believe, the argument that Christianity is in fact
pro-science, and Islam is not, which is why the West is so far ahead
in technology. The Irish monks kept the wisdom of the Greeks safe
through the dark ages, and the Jesuits were and are great contributors
to math and science.


So your rejection of evolution makes you more Islam than Christian?
I don't reject it. I have a long history in s.e.d. of arguing that
evolution and the operations of DNA will turn out to be far more
complex than Darwin or the neo-Darwinists ever imagined. The dispute
is that I believe in evolution more than most other people do. As
such, evolution is still very poorly understood, hence not very well
developed science.

John
 
T Wake distorts as only a Muslim can:

jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ehi9t2$8qk_001@s784.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com...

In article <PtWdnWzlorfyqafYnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@pipex.net>,
"T Wake" <usenet.es7at@gishpuppy.com> wrote:

jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ehd3gi$8qk_007@s884.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com...

The regular people were not allowed to watch a soccer match
(TV shows human images which is not allowed in Islam). Now
the regular people are starting to say no to these extremists.

Which is why there is very little to fear from extremism.

Sigh! I estimate that this attitude change will take about 10 years.


I estimate that you are wrong and you reasoning is based on incorrect data.


I do not think the world will have those 10 years to evolve societies.


It will if the west can be prevented from playing into the extremists hands
with a massive over reaction.
You mean more than a nuke?

I think there will be an event that will cause such a huge mess
that it will take a milenia to restore life styles back to current
levels.


I dont think this.


In Turky, with 98% of the population being Moslem, they watch TV.

Sigh! Turkey has a government body that separates church from
state. It has its own spoken and written language. It has
not had this type of government very long and is in danger
of reverting back to the old ways.


Yet it is still a Moslem country.

Your arguments are equally applied to most western countries.
Stupidly incorrect. Modern Turkey started with Attaturk
after the end of WW1. UK and US and former colonials of
the UK have a continuous history dating back to the
original version of Magna Carta in 1215. There are
other countries having a similar baseline interrupted
by 20th century events.

Actually the threat to Turkey and the rest of the modern
free first world arises from a single source. The difference
is that we've been dealing with freedom for centuries while
Turkey has only less than a century.

Pay attention to what is
going on in Turkey. Turkey is also the only Muslim country I
visited where people knew how to work and get things done.
They tend to have capitalism as their economic base.

This is not related to the religion or "mess-potential" of the nation in any
meaningful manner.
Your opinion is distorted.

The residents in that area are now sorting
out which culture will exist.

That is indeed for those who live there.



The US' religious right has similar fears. Note their
tactics. They chose a political tactic and targeted
schools. It's blowing up in their faces in most areas
(they're either getting fired or voted out). I don't
know what these types in Europe are doing. I only get
hints from Pope news.

Religion doesn't have that much power in most of Europe. There is no
parallel.

Europe is more susceptible than any other place in the Western
world (that I can think of).

Not true. Your nation is founded by religious zealots who left Europe to
get
religious freedom for their idiosyncrasies.

No wonder you have your attitude. You are wrong about how
the Constitution was written.


Really? Why did the founding fathers of the US leave Europe?

I never mentioned the constitution, I seem to recall that came quite some
time _after_ America was colonised.


Yes, 500 years ago, Europe was the centre of Christian extremism. This is
no
longer the case. The papal state is not exactly a large nation, is it?

However, the creators of Europe's last Christian extremism is
starting to get political power in Germany again.

You mean the Roman Catholics? Or do you mean the Facist Germans?
That would have to be Lutherans. LOL

So don't
get so damned smug. The veneer of civilization in Europe is very thin
and breeches have been allowed to occur with very little reaction...
again.


The smugness you mention is not on this side of the atlantic.

Yes the facists are gaining popularity in Europe - this is largely because
there is a phantom menace from Islam which people seem to react to in the
same manner as to the claims Judaism was a threat in the thirties.
......distorts as only a Muslim can. LOL

You certainly have forgotten
all of your history.

Again, not true. Culture has flourished in Europe since at least 3000BC.
Europe has only been a Christianised region since around AD1000. Up until
around AD1700, Europe was dominated (in a loose sense of the word) by
Christianity but since then it has been on the wane.

Are you implying that those 700 years of Christian ascendancy outweigh the
other 4300 years?

I am implying that Europe is very used to allowing religious
extremism to make messes.

Your implications are wrong.
History shows she's right. All through the period beginning
~1970 Islam insisted that every European country have at
least one mosque, especially countries that had an absolute
zero Muslim population. Europeans allowd this, and the things
that arose out of it.

It is in that location's folklore
and basic hidden assumptions.

Not the case.

Your nation is led by a President who is overtly seek guidance from God.

All of our Presidents have done this. It's part of the politics in the
US.

And you dont think this is odd.
Not at all.

That would frighten me. The UK PM is a devout Catholic. That offends me,
but
at least we are not a super power

There you go again placing the US in the position as supercop
yet bitching vehementing when we do take action.

Sorry, you must have misread me. I said super power not super cop. Policing
is not about "power" as such, it is about enforcing the laws which are
written by governments which are elected by the people the police, police.

Also, nothing I said contradicted in any way my previous postion on the
subject (which I suspect you dont understand anyway) - your post implied I
was "Happy" to have the US as super cop then complained when they did
anything.

I do not think of the US as "super cop" of anything.

and there are (currently) significant
checks and balances to prevent a religious upsurge.

No, there is not, even in your country.

Yes there are. You have no concept of what laws and legislation is in place
in the UK.
Perhaps you forget that the UK has a state religion.

You indulge people
who make messes based on ideologies.

No more or less than any other western country, your own included.
UK's colonial "corporate culture" remains intact. The US
has never had one.
 
lucasea@sbcglobal.net wrote:

"unsettled" <unsettled@nonsense.com> wrote in message
news:cf679$453cf606$49ecff9$26900@DIALUPUSA.NET...

Lloyd Parker wrote:


In article <ehi3q8$8qk_004@s784.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:


In article <ehafo7$ot9$1@leto.cc.emory.edu>,
lparker@emory.edu (Lloyd Parker) wrote:


In article <ehab1j$8qk_001@s949.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:


In the US, the federal government isn't allowed to do anything.

Except start wars.

When the nation is threatened, yes. It's in our Constitution.

And is it unconstitutional to do so when we're not threatened?

In our system, anything not prohibited is permitted.


Uh, sorry, no...the Constitution *specifically* limits the powers of the
Federal government to those listed in the Constitution.
Did you not read what I just wrote? Is your brain incapable of
understanding that "specifically limits" is a prohibition?

Have you been diagnosed autistic yet? Please go get checked out.
 
John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 23 Oct 06 10:55:36 GMT, lparker@emory.edu (Lloyd Parker)
wrote:


In article <8t5nj29md56ugu8pm4epmitj8tgp66v2of@4ax.com>,
John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 14:21:12 +0100, "T Wake"
usenet.es7at@gishpuppy.com> wrote:



Saying "I believe in evolution" is a valid sentence.

No, it is not valid within this context. You do know that
the Creed starts out with "I believe...".

It is still valid. I honestly believe in Newtonian Gravity being the best
description of gravity in the domain in which it applies. This is not
something which can be "known" as tomorrow some one may come up with a
better description.

Does this open the floodgates for the Religious Right to send me to hell?

Can you cite any modern case of the Religious Right denying the
accuracy of Newton's law of gravitation?


Well, there was an Onion story...


Strawman indeed. Since the
time of Galileo's house arrest, the western churches have
progressively conceded to science the domain of physical reality. I've
read, and believe, the argument that Christianity is in fact
pro-science, and Islam is not, which is why the West is so far ahead
in technology. The Irish monks kept the wisdom of the Greeks safe
through the dark ages, and the Jesuits were and are great contributors
to math and science.


So your rejection of evolution makes you more Islam than Christian?


I don't reject it. I have a long history in s.e.d. of arguing that
evolution and the operations of DNA will turn out to be far more
complex than Darwin or the neo-Darwinists ever imagined. The dispute
is that I believe in evolution more than most other people do. As
such, evolution is still very poorly understood, hence not very well
developed science.
The same statement can be made with great validity about any
of the sciences.
 
jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:
In article <ZJw_g.41$U73.14@newsfe03.lga>,
Jamie <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote:

Eeyore wrote:

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:



Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:



You're clueless.

Graham


Did we catch you talking to your self in the mirror again?


That guy does not need you to edit his posts to make him
look foolish; he does that just fine all by himself.

So why did you do this?

/BAH
I didn't, that is exactly what he posted as his reply.
there is no less or no more added to the reply.



--
"I am never wrong, once i thought i was, but i was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5
 
"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:12jnj2pr90683t4t52trio488da5i0lknk@4ax.com...
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 20:00:51 +0100, "T Wake"
usenet.es7at@gishpuppy.com> wrote:


"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrote in message
news:3m1nj2pba4fh96h1ljc3lurpprr2vpsrhe@4ax.com...
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 11:02:42 +0100, "T Wake"
usenet.es7at@gishpuppy.com> wrote:

Yes, thank you for that although I was looking for clarification in the
context of the rest of the post.

Redshift, from cosmological expansion, occurs outside large scale
structures
and as a result there is no major anomaly in the actions within the
local
group or the cluster. The oddity is the mass required to create this
blueshift, given the lack of anything "visible."

---
All that's required for the masses involved in the blueshift to be
blue-shifted toward each other is for them to be attracted to each
other more strongly than they're being attracted to the wall,
separately.

Yes. It creates a problem as to where the wall "is" though.

---
Perhaps not. Considering that there's a limit to the velocity
attainable by matter, and that the wall is accelerating that matter
ever more strongly as the matter approaches the wall, it may be that
the "wall" isn't a physical, but a dimensional "threshold" where
matter goes transluminal and joins the infinite cheese. Defining
where it _is_, then, would merely require measuring the redshifts of
two galaxies headed in the same direction, determining the distance
between them and their accelerations, and then extrapolating the
distance required for the far galaxy to achieve C as its
acceleration increased.
The recession of large scale structures is not a "velocity" in the normal
sense of the word, it is describes something which may be better visualised
as "space increasing" but that heads down all kind of mad roads as well.
Depending on the value for H_0 objects beyond a certain distance will be
recessing - from the Earth - at speeds greater than C. We can still deduce
their existence by their interaction with intermediaries - objects that are
(for example) half way between them and the Earth.

The measured red shifts of all large scale structures is "away" from Earth.
They are also moving away from each other in all directions. The term
"heading in the same direction" only has loose meaning in this context. By
carrying out this measurement the "wall" would always be approximately
1.5x10^10 ly from where ever Earth is at any given time. We know from
observing the gravitational interactions on very distant structures that
there are more structures beyond the "light horizon." We also know that the
recession between distant objects is also based on their separation - not
their distance from us - which supports the idea that recession is not a
constant velocity.

As for the "Great Attractor" being red shifted to the wall - it is no
more
red shifted than would be expected for its distance.

---
The problem isn't that it's being red shifted, the problem is that
the red shift increases as distance increases, implying that mass is
being accelerated the "farther out" it goes. The Standard Model
doesn't predict this and, in fact, can't explain why it's happening.

It isnt related to the standard model nor does it need anything from the
standard model (*).

---
Sure it does. Behind the standard model, all of the energy/matter
in the universe was pumped into an empty void at t=0, and has been
dispersing through the void ever since. The problem with that, be
it an open, closed, or static universe, is that an accelerating
expanding cosmological expansion can't be accounted for with gravity
being attractive.
The standard model doesnt really look at gravity. The standard model looks
at quantum interactions and provides the basis for particle physics. It does
explain matter but not the origin of matter.

I am not sure what part of the standard model you are refering to here, but
there is nothing in it which demands Gravity be attractive or repulsive, nor
does it explain anything before about t=1x10^-35s.

Cosmological expansion is an interesting topic in its own right.

---
And an _accelerating_ expansion mind-boggling...
No more so than anything else about the universe. Cosmology is fantastic.

My hypothesis does.

Excellent.

Consider: If our universe exists as a bubble with entrained material
outgassed from the "wall" when the bubble formed, then the
gravitational attraction from the huge mass on the other side of the
wall will be attracting it back again, and as the matter approaches
the wall it will be accelerated more and more the closer it gets,
gravitational attraction being inverse square law.

All that's required for this to happen is for the mass on the other
side of the wall to be distributed anisotropically, causing
gravitational gradients to be generated which attract matter on our
side of the wall selectively. These gradients have been confirmed
by the Sloan Digital Sky Survey.

Very interesting and it seems reasonably sound.

I can think of one potential issue but that may be more related to my
understanding of the picture you are painting than anything else.

Having the mass on the "other side" of the bubble to support the faster
acceleration creates a problem in that it puts the Earth at the centre of
the "universe."

---
Not at all. We're merely somewhere on this side of the bubble
seeing blue shifts in our local group as we're being attracted to
each other while hurtling toward the wall. The red shifts we see
will be matter being pulled away from us by the wall.
But the red shift is dependant on distance from the observer not proximity
to the light horizon. An object 1x10^9 ly from Earth will see less of a
blueshift from an object 2x10^9ly from Earth than it will from the Earth.


We know that from "here" the further things are away from us, the faster
they are recessing. Studies have shown this is true where ever "here" is
(and apart from anything else, "here" is moving at some speed).

All large scale structures are moving away from each other, at a rate
which
increases as the separation increases.

---
Exactly.
The rate is not dependant on the proximity to the wall but the distance from
the observer - in all directions.

Taking your model as an example, an object 1.5*10^10 ly away from Earth
would be closer to the "wall" than Earth

---
Only if we assume a spherical bubble and isotropic gravitation being
exerted by the mass behind the wall. As a matter of fact, under
those conditions my hypothesis breaks down since the attraction of
gravity inside the sphere would be everywhere the same.
The bubble can be any shape and this is the case. Unless the bubble is
shaped so that every object is the centre and equally distant from the edge
this happens. If the bubble is shaped like that, well, I wouldn't call it a
bubble.

I am not sure what you mean about the gravity inside the bubble being the
same - we assume it is.

so is being pulled faster and
harder than Earth, but an observer on that Object would see our Local
Group
moving at a massive red shift and may well conclude we were indeed closer
to
the wall.

---
Well, all we'd really know is that we'd both see the same shift, so
it would be difficult, without knowing exactly where we were, to say
where the other object was, I think.
Yes, yet both are being pulled to the wall with equal force.

This happens pretty much all over the universe making the edge of the
bubble
hard to locate.

---
See above, about extrapolation.

Can you explain what topology your bubble has?



Does this support a Big Bubble universe? Maybe. Off the top of my head I
cant immediately fault it as a theory

---
It's still just a hypothesis. :)

As are they all. No one _knows_ what happened at t=0.

although the Big Bang is itself a
misnomer and was never meant to imply a huge explosion at the t=0 event.

---
Regardless, the apparent accelerating expansion of our universe
isn't explained by the Big Bang theory, and _can't_ be, unless
gravity is found to be repulsive.

Accelerated expansion is not part of the t=0 theory which became known as
"Big Bang Theory." The Big Bang theory is about what happened at t=0.

---
In the sense that accelerated expansion was discovered quite some
time after the Big Bang hypothesis slipped into theory, you're
right.
Depends on your perspective, accelerated expansion was identified in the
1920s, Big Bang was coined by Fred Hoyle as an insult for the expanding
universe theories at the time.

However, considering that the big bangers think that at t=0
a finite amount of stuff was puffed into an empty void with only its
own gravitational forces to guide its distribution certainly _does_
cast the big bang in a bad light now that we know it _can't_ explain
accelerated expansion.
I am not sure what big bangers you are talking about here. I certainly do
not think that, and I dont know any who do. It is equally valid to say none
big bangers must be incorrect because they think that everything in the
universe was put there by God, which also does not explain accelerated
expansion.

Accelerated expansion does not contradict anything the "big bang theory"
(what theory there is) predicts or claims. Expansion of the universe was the
basis behind the Big Bang ideas, and accelerated expansion is easily a
property of how that expansion takes place. (Rubber band analogy applies
here)

Subsequent theories look at the evolution and development of the universe.
That is like saying Boyles Law doesn't explain the accelerated expansion
of
the universe.

---
Well, it doesn't, does it??? ;)
---

Gravity does not have to be repulsive to expansion to take place.

---
No, but for _accelerated_ expansion to take place, it does.
No it doesn't. The acceleration is a function of distance from observer not
an intrinsic property of the expansion.

The expansion is not dependant on repulsive gravity either - all it needs is
a stronger force pushing out.

Either that or an external gravitational field which follows an
inverse square law has to be in place, as would be the case in a
bubble universe such as I hypothesize.
One of many options. It has good and bad points. That objects distant from
Earth are not _actually_ moving away faster is a big bad point. Redshift is
caused by the distance increasing.

Between
structures in which gravity is dominant, expansion does not take place.

---
That's not true. In structures in which gravity is dominant,
expansion occurs initially, but as the gravitational force between
the objects slows them down, eventually a point will be reached
where the expansion will stop and the force of attraction between
them will cause them to coalesce. The big-bang "closed universe"
theory.
No, sorry.

"Within" cosmological structures like our local group, Gravity is dominant
an objects are "pulled" towards the centre - within a given meaning of the
term pulled. There is still movement in all directions, but it is very
different than cosmological expansion.

Expansion only occurs "between" large scale structures. Expansion is not the
structures "moving in space" it is more that space between structures
increases.

Where gravitational forces are weak the universe expands.

---
Where gravitational forces are weak and the initial velocity of
expansion was high, an "open" big bang universe could exist which
would expand forever, but without an external gravitational field
attracting the objects in the universe, accelerating expansion would
be impossible without repulsive gravity.
You are talking about universal models here. The open universe model does
not need an "external" gravitational field. Accelerating expansion does not
need repulsive gravity.

Gravity itself is the weakest "fundamental force," there is no reason why
"something" else couldn't be driving the expansion.

---
Like what?
Like anything. We have to come to assume that the four fundamental forces
are _all_ there is, but there is no evidence that is the case. Likewise we
assume that the equivalence principle is true, but until we can visit a
distant structure we do not "know" this. Maybe the force of cheese is indeed
accelerating cosmological expansion, we just haven't discovered it yet.
 
"Eeyore" <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:453C4494.53C1529@hotmail.com...
unsettled wrote:

T Wake wrote:

IT and computers are a science field.

Only as a misnomer.

Since when was electronics not a field of science ?
Well, unless they have started giving out Bachelor of Electronics, I think
it still falls into the "science" side of the classroom :)

That said, USENET without semantic arguments would be a very different place
(probably with more Arts students...) so while I still think of IT et al.,
as "science" subjects I agree they are not subject to the scientific method
in their practical interpretations (they are heavily based on physics though
so... :)) and people can call them anything they want.
 
"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:a4ioj2hb7thtg4gl99sh7mas1fnmddbt6i@4ax.com...
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:27:01 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:



unsettled wrote:

T Wake wrote:

IT and computers are a science field.

Only as a misnomer.

Since when was electronics not a field of science ?

Graham


Electronics is a technology. Electrical engineers build things, they
don't research the workings of nature. Some academic EEs pretend to be
scientists.

Almost all the sciences use electronics to manage, measure, and record
experiments. It's remarkable how little science can now be done
without electronics, the exception being theoretical work, but even
that is tested and validated - or not - with electronics. Electronics
has become an indispensable tool of science, like mathematics.
Strange.
Not strange. Separating them is (IMHO) strange. Electronics is a practical
implementation of science. Why force them into different categories?
 
<jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ehi55a$8qk_008@s784.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com...
In article <453A24D6.FD9A2EED@hotmail.com>,
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:


jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

"T Wake" <usenet.es7at@gishpuppy.com> wrote:
jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

Why not start listening to and watching the BBC
?

I have and I do. I now listen to the BBC to see which
slant of surrendering to the Islamic extremists they
are taking that day.

Amazing. Can you let me know when you come across any please?

Any report about the Palestinians will give you a start.

You think the BBC has surrendered to the Palestinians ?

No. That will be the consequence.
Of what?
 
<jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ehi8at$8qk_005@s784.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com...
In article <Vq-dndGja_EooqfYRVnyuQ@pipex.net>,
"T Wake" <usenet.es7at@gishpuppy.com> wrote:

jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message
news:ehd382$8qk_006@s884.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com...
In article <58GdnewlesO5CKvYRVnygA@pipex.net>,
"T Wake" <usenet.es7at@gishpuppy.com> wrote:

jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message
news:eh536o$8qk_004@s847.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com...
In article <uqkaj29qqainbc7l4mc8i51e40dbj8cf56@4ax.com>,
John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:57:10 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:



John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 17 Oct 06 11:50:44 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

Pushing in certain areas is not the best way to prevent future
messes. I've found that the only way for people to learn how
not make new messes is to have them clean up the ones they
already made.


Excellent. Care to assign cleanup duties in the Middle East and
Africa?

Which bits of Africa did you have in mind ?


Well, let's see. We could start with the Belgian Congo, and maybe
Rhodesia, perhaps Cote D'Ivorie and German East Africa.

I think Liberia is key but I'm not sure. It would be productive
if the countries in Africa were left alone.

To kill each other? Strikes me as a reasonable idea. Let them all kill
each
other, then when the dust settles we can kill the one or two survivors
and
take all the diamonds.

A lot of recent killing is the hangover of the Cold War. The UN
has not helped since it seems to be admirable to keep the
former third world in its place by making them welfare countries
and punishing those who refuse such handouts.

Most of the troubles in Africa are down to the fact they are not countries
in the sense "Westerners" use the term. They are artificial borders drawn
by
colonial powers which cross traditional tribal and ethnic boundaries. To
expect people to settle with this is (IMHO of course) nonsense and the
warfare is almost understandable.

I don't think that any of the central African nations are hold overs from
Cold War proxy conflicts, it goes back further than that.

Sigh! Make a list of their debt to the World Bank.
Compare who is having lots of internal problems with those
who are building an infrastructure that is skipping
the copper wire.
Sigh. Re-read my post. The turmoil in central Africa goes back much further
than the Cold War.
 
"unsettled" <unsettled@nonsense.com> wrote in message
news:9d61d$453cfc77$49ecff9$27195@DIALUPUSA.NET...
lucasea@sbcglobal.net wrote:

"unsettled" <unsettled@nonsense.com> wrote in message
news:cf679$453cf606$49ecff9$26900@DIALUPUSA.NET...

Lloyd Parker wrote:


In article <ehi3q8$8qk_004@s784.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:


In article <ehafo7$ot9$1@leto.cc.emory.edu>,
lparker@emory.edu (Lloyd Parker) wrote:


In article <ehab1j$8qk_001@s949.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:


In the US, the federal government isn't allowed to do anything.

Except start wars.

When the nation is threatened, yes. It's in our Constitution.

And is it unconstitutional to do so when we're not threatened?

In our system, anything not prohibited is permitted.


Uh, sorry, no...the Constitution *specifically* limits the powers of the
Federal government to those listed in the Constitution.

Did you not read what I just wrote? Is your brain incapable of
understanding that "specifically limits" is a prohibition?

Uh, no..."specifically limits" says what they can do. Anything else is
prohibited, not permitted.

Eric Lucas
 
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:42:53 -0500, unsettled <unsettled@nonsense.com>
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 23 Oct 06 10:55:36 GMT, lparker@emory.edu (Lloyd Parker)
wrote:


In article <8t5nj29md56ugu8pm4epmitj8tgp66v2of@4ax.com>,
John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 14:21:12 +0100, "T Wake"
usenet.es7at@gishpuppy.com> wrote:



Saying "I believe in evolution" is a valid sentence.

No, it is not valid within this context. You do know that
the Creed starts out with "I believe...".

It is still valid. I honestly believe in Newtonian Gravity being the best
description of gravity in the domain in which it applies. This is not
something which can be "known" as tomorrow some one may come up with a
better description.

Does this open the floodgates for the Religious Right to send me to hell?

Can you cite any modern case of the Religious Right denying the
accuracy of Newton's law of gravitation?


Well, there was an Onion story...


Strawman indeed. Since the
time of Galileo's house arrest, the western churches have
progressively conceded to science the domain of physical reality. I've
read, and believe, the argument that Christianity is in fact
pro-science, and Islam is not, which is why the West is so far ahead
in technology. The Irish monks kept the wisdom of the Greeks safe
through the dark ages, and the Jesuits were and are great contributors
to math and science.


So your rejection of evolution makes you more Islam than Christian?


I don't reject it. I have a long history in s.e.d. of arguing that
evolution and the operations of DNA will turn out to be far more
complex than Darwin or the neo-Darwinists ever imagined. The dispute
is that I believe in evolution more than most other people do. As
such, evolution is still very poorly understood, hence not very well
developed science.

The same statement can be made with great validity about any
of the sciences.
Most of the other sciences produce theories that work quantitatively
to some goodly number of decimal points, and can be tested
experimentally, and that have difficulty quantitatively explaining
only extreme situations. Evolution is essentially qualitative, and
only connects the dimly-understood functionality of DNA to evolution
in a fuzzy, descriptive sort of way.

There's all sorts of interesting stuff. Some people are born with six
fully functional fingers on each hand. So "finger" must be some sort
of parameterized macro, and "mirror image" must be an operation, and
there must be some sort of installation crew that hooks everything up
so that it all works.

Aircraft parts were classicly identified by drawing number and dash
number. If a part were, say, 123456-1A (the basic part defined by
drawing 123456 rev A), it was automatically assumed that 123456-2A was
its mirror image.

John
 
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 19:18:06 +0100, "T Wake"
<usenet.es7at@gishpuppy.com> wrote:

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:a4ioj2hb7thtg4gl99sh7mas1fnmddbt6i@4ax.com...
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:27:01 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:



unsettled wrote:

T Wake wrote:

IT and computers are a science field.

Only as a misnomer.

Since when was electronics not a field of science ?

Graham


Electronics is a technology. Electrical engineers build things, they
don't research the workings of nature. Some academic EEs pretend to be
scientists.

Almost all the sciences use electronics to manage, measure, and record
experiments. It's remarkable how little science can now be done
without electronics, the exception being theoretical work, but even
that is tested and validated - or not - with electronics. Electronics
has become an indispensable tool of science, like mathematics.
Strange.

Not strange. Separating them is (IMHO) strange. Electronics is a practical
implementation of science. Why force them into different categories?
What's strange is how pervasive it is. Hardly any hard science
research can be done without a bunch of electronics instrumentation.
We have almost no other ways to accurately measure and record physical
phenomena. Any physics, chemistry, or even biology lab is usually
dominated with electronic gear, optimistically all calibrated,
connected, and being used properly.

I'm not complaining.

John
 
"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:vb4qj29r3tpr4ctnhbffuumsdgpj704mf8@4ax.com...
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 12:42:53 -0500, unsettled <unsettled@nonsense.com
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 23 Oct 06 10:55:36 GMT, lparker@emory.edu (Lloyd Parker)
wrote:


In article <8t5nj29md56ugu8pm4epmitj8tgp66v2of@4ax.com>,
John Larkin <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 14:21:12 +0100, "T Wake"
usenet.es7at@gishpuppy.com> wrote:



Saying "I believe in evolution" is a valid sentence.

No, it is not valid within this context. You do know that
the Creed starts out with "I believe...".

It is still valid. I honestly believe in Newtonian Gravity being the
best
description of gravity in the domain in which it applies. This is not
something which can be "known" as tomorrow some one may come up with a
better description.

Does this open the floodgates for the Religious Right to send me to
hell?

Can you cite any modern case of the Religious Right denying the
accuracy of Newton's law of gravitation?


Well, there was an Onion story...


Strawman indeed. Since the
time of Galileo's house arrest, the western churches have
progressively conceded to science the domain of physical reality. I've
read, and believe, the argument that Christianity is in fact
pro-science, and Islam is not, which is why the West is so far ahead
in technology. The Irish monks kept the wisdom of the Greeks safe
through the dark ages, and the Jesuits were and are great contributors
to math and science.


So your rejection of evolution makes you more Islam than Christian?


I don't reject it. I have a long history in s.e.d. of arguing that
evolution and the operations of DNA will turn out to be far more
complex than Darwin or the neo-Darwinists ever imagined. The dispute
is that I believe in evolution more than most other people do. As
such, evolution is still very poorly understood, hence not very well
developed science.

The same statement can be made with great validity about any
of the sciences.

Most of the other sciences produce theories that work quantitatively
to some goodly number of decimal points, and can be tested
experimentally, and that have difficulty quantitatively explaining
only extreme situations. Evolution is essentially qualitative, and
only connects the dimly-understood functionality of DNA to evolution
in a fuzzy, descriptive sort of way.
You're applying standards from one science (physics) to another science
(biology) in a way in which it simply doesn't apply. Each science has to
have its own standards of what constitutes a good theory, since each science
is subject to different limits on the amount and type of hypothesis testing
is possible. I would argue that, just because by definition we cannot run a
paleontological experiment, doesn't mean that theories of paleontology are
necessarily any less useful or complete *in their field* than the
theoretical physics.


There's all sorts of interesting stuff. Some people are born with six
fully functional fingers on each hand. So "finger" must be some sort
of parameterized macro, and "mirror image" must be an operation, and
there must be some sort of installation crew that hooks everything up
so that it all works.
Yes, but those things are just the details of how it gets done--the
mechanism, in chemist-speak. Similarly, chemists generally don't need to
understand the physical underpinnings of everything that they do, and to my
knowledge, nobody has actually ever solved the time-dependent macroscopic
Schroedinger equation for a reaction. Nevertheless, I don't think anybody
would seriously say that our understanding of organic chemistry isn't pretty
complete (as far as it goes), or that organic chemistry is a "not very well
developed science."

The fact is that the general underpinnings of evolution are extremely well
understood (as far as they go), and have stood the test of a huge amount of
archaeological and paleontological data. The rest is just the details of
how biology controls phenotype, and those are being filled in.

Eric Lucas
 
"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:e75qj2h3p4vlor2q6425thuf5t0d1h46os@4ax.com...
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 19:18:06 +0100, "T Wake"
usenet.es7at@gishpuppy.com> wrote:

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
message
news:a4ioj2hb7thtg4gl99sh7mas1fnmddbt6i@4ax.com...

Almost all the sciences use electronics to manage, measure, and record
experiments. It's remarkable how little science can now be done
without electronics, the exception being theoretical work, but even
that is tested and validated - or not - with electronics. Electronics
has become an indispensable tool of science, like mathematics.
Strange.

Not strange. Separating them is (IMHO) strange. Electronics is a practical
implementation of science. Why force them into different categories?

What's strange is how pervasive it is.
Why? We've been in a situation for almost 60 years, that electronics can do
many things much faster and more accurately/precisely than humans. Beyond
this, we've gotten to the place that we're interested in measuring things
that would be inaccessible to the un-electronic lab. It would only be
strange, as TWake points out, if we *didn't* rely on electronics to help us
measure thing almost everything in science.

Eric Lucas
 
"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:e75qj2h3p4vlor2q6425thuf5t0d1h46os@4ax.com...
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 19:18:06 +0100, "T Wake"
usenet.es7at@gishpuppy.com> wrote:


"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in
message
news:a4ioj2hb7thtg4gl99sh7mas1fnmddbt6i@4ax.com...
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 05:27:01 +0100, Eeyore
rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:



unsettled wrote:

T Wake wrote:

IT and computers are a science field.

Only as a misnomer.

Since when was electronics not a field of science ?

Graham


Electronics is a technology. Electrical engineers build things, they
don't research the workings of nature. Some academic EEs pretend to be
scientists.

Almost all the sciences use electronics to manage, measure, and record
experiments. It's remarkable how little science can now be done
without electronics, the exception being theoretical work, but even
that is tested and validated - or not - with electronics. Electronics
has become an indispensable tool of science, like mathematics.
Strange.

Not strange. Separating them is (IMHO) strange. Electronics is a practical
implementation of science. Why force them into different categories?


What's strange is how pervasive it is. Hardly any hard science
research can be done without a bunch of electronics instrumentation.
We have almost no other ways to accurately measure and record physical
phenomena. Any physics, chemistry, or even biology lab is usually
dominated with electronic gear, optimistically all calibrated,
connected, and being used properly.
Yes, and of course the gear and it's calibration relies on the science in
the first place. It is all entangled.
 
On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 14:47:03 +0100, Eeyore
<rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

"T Wake" <usenet.es7at@gishpuppy.com> wrote:
jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote in message
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:

Why not start listening to and watching the BBC
?

I have and I do. I now listen to the BBC to see which
slant of surrendering to the Islamic extremists they
are taking that day.

Amazing. Can you let me know when you come across any please?

Any report about the Palestinians will give you a start.

You think the BBC has surrendered to the Palestinians ?


Graham
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&ie=UTF-8&ncl=http://www.cbn.com/CBNnews/45336.aspx


John
 
In article <9949f$453cf343$49ecff9$26858@DIALUPUSA.NET>,
unsettled <unsettled@nonsense.com> wrote:
Lloyd Parker wrote:

In article <ehd5ug$8qk_010@s884.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:

In article <45378D92.1903B626@hotmail.com>,
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:


jmfbahciv@aol.com wrote:


lparker@emory.edu (Lloyd Parker) wrote:


They gave their 95% confidence interval.

The news said that the questions that were asked was if
anybody knew anybody who died. Adding these up will not
give a correct count.

The 'news' was wrong then.

In most cases ( ~90 % ) a death certificate was shown.

And the death certificates said that all the deaths were
due to US killing them?


That wasn't what the study (which you haven't read) said. It was all
deaths
in Iraq.

Wrong. It was all the *reported* deaths which is a
completely different thing.
No, it was a survey of deaths.

Everybody agrees most of them have been due to sectarian violence.
But the point is, the death rate is significantly higher than when Saddam
was
in power, giving lie to the notion that we've made Iraq safer.

Probably only higher than the deaths reported during
the Saddam regime.
No, everybody pretty much agrees the violence is much worse now.

There are found mass graves, and
Still not equalling 600,000 a year.

likely to be more not yet found. We know that not
all deaths were reported during the Saddam regime.

We hope all current deaths are being reported.

You don't have good data. With bad data, all
conclusions are worthless, and that's the case
in this discussion at the moment.
 

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