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Strange. I don't post to every other group on usenet.jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
In article <87y7mkflv6.fsf@nonospaz.fatphil.org>,
Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
[SNIP]
I physically not bear to have any of your garbage included
in this post, lest through searches of archives my name be
associated with your insane ignorant gibbering.
However, let me just say that I disagree with basically
every sentence in your post. It ranges from meaningless
to irrelevant via liberal splashings of just plain wrong.
I know that you have your mind set to interpret everything I write
to be 100% wrong. You have stated this over and over ad nauseum.
Aren't you getting bored writing the same thing numerous
times every day?
No, this is sci.physics, where on principle I use no killfile.
(You're in my killfile in every other group on usenet;
In article <es15jr$8qk_003@s924.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
In article <eruv57$vf3$8@blue.rahul.net>,
kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken Smith) wrote:
snip
It's not likely a rumor. Their local radio station designsAnd my mother just bought an ink pen that is supposed to prevent
lifting their signatures. I don't understand this one but her
area's latest alert is to use a special pen to sign checks.
This can be the rumor mill running away. Use a blue pen to sign.
I can't help that. When you read my stuff with the initialIn article <es173c$8qk_001@s924.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
In article <eruvnn$vf3$9@blue.rahul.net>,
kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken Smith) wrote:
In article <eruj75$8qk_001@s965.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
In article <ershih$ui3$7@blue.rahul.net>,
kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken Smith) wrote:
[....]
That is incorrect. Take this example of a list of five things:
**** begin list of five items ****
A bunny
A cat
A dog
**** end list of five items ****
Can software look at that and tell if there are items missing? This is a
simple case of redundant information allowing the detection of an error.
It is the sort of thing that is in the first steps of repairing.
I know what I'm talking about.
You don't seem to me making clear points on the subject.
Yes.In the case of sources, if your
procedures don't make you use them once in a while, they can
disappear and be gone for years before anybody discovers that they're
missing.
Does "sources" in this case mean source code?
You are wrong.Assuming yes, this
statement is not actually true.
A compilation guarantees that every thing that is needed to buildYou only need to have an effective check
that the files are still the same as before. You don't have to attempt to
compile.
The only way to do this is to make the usage of them a part ofWithout a backup safe policy that covers at least a decade,
you have to have some other way to make sure files don't disappear
with your notice.
The issue is to make sure the files never disappear or get damaged.
Nope. It is not effective over the long term.This
can be done with a procedure that doesn't require the very old media.
Checks like the CRC are quite effective.
No, it's not. Access dates are also important in backup procedures.I have code on CD that started off on 8 inch floppy.
What is missing?
The access date-time, last-written date-time, and last-read date-time
should be three separate date-time fields. There is a fourth
that is moderately useful, but I can't recall what that one is.
Linux stores creation and modification dates. That is enough.
And what if the breaking was done by something that is on those tapes?[....]
Yes it does cover transaction based data. Take the example of banking
information. The account balances as of, lets say, midnight are stored.
From that point forwards, you have the transaction records. The
transaction records for a given account contains not just the movement of
the money but other information such as the new total. In this case one
needs only look back in time for each account to the last time there was
a
break in the transactions. In a real time system, when you are doing
rapid transactions, the totals are always out of date. The first
transaction after a break, has a correct total.
It means that such a system has to have some way to "replay" the
transactions (all of them in sequential order) from the point of
the snapshot. This is also a form of a backup that needs to be
kept in at least three geographical, (and networked, I think) at
once.
No, you didn't read the above carefully enough. You can work backwards
through the data and still get the right answer.
That takes a lot of time and care. Some transaction processing
doesn't have the luxury of time.
It does take a lot of time. The "care" is having well written software.
If the system is damaged, you have to repair it. This is just life. You
can do things to prevent the damage in the first place but this is not the
issue we are talking about. We got here by talking about backups.
You can never verify that bits were dropped over the long term.You may not have to
process back to the snapshot. The information needs to be stored in
multiple locations but these days that only takes a little money to do.
Another problem that needs to be solved is off-site storage that
doesn't degrade and still be able to read after a decade of
hard/software evolution. I don't think anybody has produced
a method yet. There is one going on but the only way to verify
that it works is to wait a decade ;-).
You can transcribe the data every so often.
YOu still have a lot to learn about bit management.Since the media has gotten
denser with time, this make sense from a cost point of view. That big
hole in the mountain in Utah is only a limited size.
Doesn't mean it isn't a rumour.In article <es1hop$89d$5@blue.rahul.net>,
kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken Smith) wrote:
In article <es15jr$8qk_003@s924.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
In article <eruv57$vf3$8@blue.rahul.net>,
kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken Smith) wrote:
snip
And my mother just bought an ink pen that is supposed to prevent
lifting their signatures. I don't understand this one but her
area's latest alert is to use a special pen to sign checks.
This can be the rumor mill running away. Use a blue pen to sign.
It's not likely a rumor. Their local radio station designs
their programming to provide services to their listeners. It's
probably one of the few remaining who do so; the guy who is
behind this kind of programming has retired and does this
stuff for a hobby. The shows are regular and have experts
provide the latest information and take calls to answer questions.
If it's a rumor, then the experts believe it, too.
It can't be much of a "blue state" if it doesn't have good banking etc.In article <es1hfu$89d$4@blue.rahul.net>,
kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken Smith) wrote:
[....]
Well then move. You've said enough bad about this back water you live in
to convince me you need to move.
The state I live is proud of the fact they consider themselves
Liberal and Progressive. It is usually a field test site of new
ways politicians to dip into your cash reserve.
I don't fill out any paper. The bank my mother uses has tellers that youYou don't have to have it connected. You just walk into the bank and pay
it by talking to the teller.
It doesn't work that way. Which piece of paper do you fill out
to pay the credit card?
But it never sees your home computer and you have never transmitted theDo you include the credit number on
this piece of paper? If you do, now there is a document that will
be scanned into bits that has both your account number and your
card number.
Go talk to the bank. Your parents are over 55. There are usually specialI'm trying to develop a safe way for them to function. With
the removal of using checks, there is none that is as
convenient as checking so far.
The credit / debit card is likely the best. My mother has been using one
for years. She keeps a small amount of money in its account. If
something major comes up, she can use the credit.
The banks that we use don't allow small amounts of money in accounts.
If the balance falls below a minimum, fees are charged. The amounts
charged are enough to buy the milk.
That happens all the time. Lots of people get fooled by good soundingIn article <es1hop$89d$5@blue.rahul.net>,
kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken Smith) wrote:
In article <es15jr$8qk_003@s924.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
In article <eruv57$vf3$8@blue.rahul.net>,
kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken Smith) wrote:
snip
And my mother just bought an ink pen that is supposed to prevent
lifting their signatures. I don't understand this one but her
area's latest alert is to use a special pen to sign checks.
This can be the rumor mill running away. Use a blue pen to sign.
It's not likely a rumor. Their local radio station designs
their programming to provide services to their listeners. It's
probably one of the few remaining who do so; the guy who is
behind this kind of programming has retired and does this
stuff for a hobby. The shows are regular and have experts
provide the latest information and take calls to answer questions.
If it's a rumor, then the experts believe it, too.
When I saw that first post I read from you, I had no opinion on theIn article <es1ive$89d$6@blue.rahul.net>,
kensmith@green.rahul.net (Ken Smith) wrote:
[...]
I know what I'm talking about.
You don't seem to me making clear points on the subject.
I can't help that. When you read my stuff with the initial
assumption that it is going to be wrong, the onus of clarity
is not on my shoulders.
No, I am right. See how when I do understand what you mean I discoverIn the case of sources, if your
procedures don't make you use them once in a while, they can
disappear and be gone for years before anybody discovers that they're
missing.
Does "sources" in this case mean source code?
Yes.
Assuming yes, this
statement is not actually true.
You are wrong.
No this is simply wrong. Mere compilation only proves that something thatYou only need to have an effective check
that the files are still the same as before. You don't have to attempt to
compile.
A compilation guarantees that every thing that is needed to build
the product is present.
For important software, the code is often treated as an important drawingWhen a system has run without any problems
for years, there is ususally nobody around who can build it nor
maintain it; the first person to find a job is the one who babysits
sources. When they're not actively changing, it doesn't make any
sense to a manager to pay somebody to watch paint, that was designed
never to dry, dry.
No, you can do it once a year once the software has stopped changing.The issue is to make sure the files never disappear or get damaged.
The only way to do this is to make the usage of them a part of
daily computing life.
You are wrong again.This
can be done with a procedure that doesn't require the very old media.
Checks like the CRC are quite effective.
Nope. It is not effective over the long term.
Nope wrong again. If a file hasn't been accessed or if it has doesn'tThe access date-time, last-written date-time, and last-read date-time
should be three separate date-time fields. There is a fourth
that is moderately useful, but I can't recall what that one is.
Linux stores creation and modification dates. That is enough.
No, it's not. Access dates are also important in backup procedures.
You are constantly confusing restoring with repairing. They are two veryIt does take a lot of time. The "care" is having well written software.
If the system is damaged, you have to repair it. This is just life. You
can do things to prevent the damage in the first place but this is not the
issue we are talking about. We got here by talking about backups.
And what if the breaking was done by something that is on those tapes?
Whenever you restore the tapes, the system proceed to break again.
Yes, you can. You need to read up about redundant information.Another problem that needs to be solved is off-site storage that
doesn't degrade and still be able to read after a decade of
hard/software evolution. I don't think anybody has produced
a method yet. There is one going on but the only way to verify
that it works is to wait a decade ;-).
You can transcribe the data every so often.
You can never verify that bits were dropped over the long term.
You can only lower the odds of having it be wrong. One chance in oneCopying is not a good method of keeping a snapshot of something
in the past. The copy is a new file. It is not the old file
and there is no guarantee that something hasn't changed.
This is simply bogus BS.There exists a Murphy's Law corrollary that guarantees each time
a file is opened an error will be introduced.
No, you appear to.Since the media has gotten
denser with time, this make sense from a cost point of view. That big
hole in the mountain in Utah is only a limited size.
YOu still have a lot to learn about bit management.
Any time you open a file in a writable mode an error mayIn article <es3v6k$8qk_001@s823.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com> wrote:
There exists a Murphy's Law corrollary that guarantees each time
a file is opened an error will be introduced.
This is simply bogus BS.
Dumber-than-a-dim-bulb, you're wrong. Walk into a large departmentOn Mon, 26 Feb 07 12:36:17 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com Gave us:
The wrinkle to the new process is that the checks have stopped
traveling.
Bullshit. My landlord gets a check, and his bank submits it to my
bank who has it ON FILE RIGHT NOW, I get an image of the check in my
mailed monthly statement, and can look up a full size image of all my
checks online.
Oh, most clueless one, Google on "check 21". Paper checks are asYou are CLUELESS.
On Mon, 26 Feb 07 12:36:17 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com Gave us:
Instead you are trusting the payee to destroy the
piece of paper you sent to him;
You're an idiot. Checks still move between banks, dipshit.
Dumb Dimbulb:
Dispute? Barb's parents are going to dispute money she's sending?In article <MPG.204cd75ceff51c5d98a004@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
In article <eruumf$vf3$7@blue.rahul.net>, kensmith@green.rahul.net
says...
In article <MPG.204cc17fb115629c98a000@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
In article <erul1i$8qk_008@s965.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
So far, I haven't been
able to develop any process that people, such as my parents, will
be able to use.
How about PayPal, or the equivalent?
No, no, no a billion times no. I would never sign that contract in a
million years.
I hear them being disparaged like WallyWorld. Why?
There are lots of uninformed reasons and one big real one. They gain the
power to lock up your money in case of a dispute. It isn't some third
party that holds the cash until the matter is settled.
Likely. I don't know if there is a way around this.In article <MPG.204cc17fb115629c98a000@news.individual.net>,
krw <krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:
In article <erul1i$8qk_008@s965.apx1.sbo.ma.dialup.rcn.com>,
jmfbahciv@aol.com says...
So far, I haven't been
able to develop any process that people, such as my parents, will
be able to use.
How about PayPal, or the equivalent?
Doesn't that involve online-edness?
I've never seen any evidence of either, other than the billionsI smell a bad odour w.r.t.
PayPal because it's name is being used as spam for gathering
financial data.
Credit cards are likely the most secure, personally.I haven't studied PayPal yet. My mother is
quickly coming to the conclusion that checks are not a Good Thing.
They do everything checks, including buy groceries. I don't
like her carrying cash because of the gangs that have been
imported from Viet Nam and Mexico.
Watch out for the scam where the numbers are copied off the rackMy next experiment is to investigate debit cards that you buy
outright and have no information embeded that can tie the
transaction back to a personal bank account.
In article <87ejobds6m.fsf@nonospaz.fatphil.org>,
Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
In article <87y7mkflv6.fsf@nonospaz.fatphil.org>,
Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
[SNIP]
I physically not bear to have any of your garbage included
in this post, lest through searches of archives my name be
associated with your insane ignorant gibbering.
However, let me just say that I disagree with basically
every sentence in your post. It ranges from meaningless
to irrelevant via liberal splashings of just plain wrong.
I know that you have your mind set to interpret everything I write
to be 100% wrong. You have stated this over and over ad nauseum.
Aren't you getting bored writing the same thing numerous
times every day?
No, this is sci.physics, where on principle I use no killfile.
(You're in my killfile in every other group on usenet;
Strange. I don't post to every other group on usenet.
snip
Each of which is beyond Phil's comprehension, and yours.On Wed, 28 Feb 07 12:06:49 GMT, jmfbahciv@aol.com Gave us:
In article <87ejobds6m.fsf@nonospaz.fatphil.org>,
Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
In article <87y7mkflv6.fsf@nonospaz.fatphil.org>,
Phil Carmody <thefatphil_demunged@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
jmfbahciv@aol.com writes:
[SNIP]
I physically not bear to have any of your garbage included
in this post, lest through searches of archives my name be
associated with your insane ignorant gibbering.
However, let me just say that I disagree with basically
every sentence in your post. It ranges from meaningless
to irrelevant via liberal splashings of just plain wrong.
I know that you have your mind set to interpret everything I write
to be 100% wrong. You have stated this over and over ad nauseum.
Aren't you getting bored writing the same thing numerous
times every day?
No, this is sci.physics, where on principle I use no killfile.
(You're in my killfile in every other group on usenet;
Strange. I don't post to every other group on usenet.
snip
In this thread alone, you post into at least two others.
Believe it or not, an error may be
introduced.
Knowing Murphy as intimately as I do,
some
significant number will end up introducing an error.
File writes to hard drive volumes get checked, dumbass."Reliable" systems are defined by a threshold in the number
of errors/some_number of operations. But you knew that, no?
You're so full of shit, your eyes are brown, and there is a foulBAH's career included a requirement that she be paranoid
about all things that can go wrong. There's no sense arguing
these issues because in the different worlds you live in
each of you is right.
You're an idiot. I can say reliably that you are clueless.Also, check out "real time reliable" systems.