How it\'s made: heat sinks...

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 8:14:36 PM UTC-4, Clifford Heath wrote:
On 18/4/22 3:45 am, DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
news:thfo5ht952906bo98...@4ax.com:

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 09:10:41 -0700,
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 15:55:21 -0000 (UTC),
DecadentLinux...@decadence.org wrote:

Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:3f3e0e0f-175e-4d27...@googlegroups.com:

The large surface area of the long, skinny fins are perfect
coupling between the low thermal resistance of the heat sink
and the relatively high thermal conductivity of the fin/air
contact.

The word(s) for today is \"boundary layer\".

https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/wp-
content/uploads/2016/05/effect_of_boundary_laher_thickness.png

https://www.heatsinkcalculator.com/blog/top-3-mistakes-made-when-
selecting-a-heat-sink/

Slow air would pass right over a close fin spaced sink. High
speed
forced air is required when the fins get that closely spaced.


Right. Viscous drag will keep air from flowing between tall,
closely spaced fins. It will have to be ducted and forced, or it
will go around.

The limiting case, more and more denser and thinner fins,
volumetric air flow will approach zero.

My general rule is that a heat sink should reduce the native air
flow by about half. Neither zero nor 100% does any cooling.

And of course, the tips of tall thin fins have a high thermal
resistance to the baseplate, so run at about inlet air temp, so
restrict air flow without contributing much coolong. My 50% number
is useless if the air flow is restricted without corresponding
cooling.

There is no limit to how bad a heat sink you can design. A solid
aluminum brick is pretty bad.




I even saw some where they slice up each fin into little fingers
and the sink was \"bristling\" with them. Probably pretty good, but
again, the air movement over and through them is required. Air flow
means nothing if it does not intertwine with the heated elements to
get hot and then be carried off as more air is added to be heated and
moved. It\'s a bucket brigade.

I\'m surprised they don\'t skive using a wavy cutter. It seems you could
easily add turbulence to the air to get better cooling with bigger fin
spacing (fewer fins).

https://youtu.be/ghrjJ1OL6jM?t=21
 
Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote in
news:36df6057-1e26-47a2-90e4-501925414d3fn@googlegroups.com:

torsdag den 21. april 2022 kl. 01.48.35 UTC+2 skrev
DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
Lasse Langwadt Christensen <lang...@fonz.dk> wrote in
news:50ac279e-89b5-44b5...@googlegroups.com:
torsdag den 21. april 2022 kl. 00.12.14 UTC+2 skrev
DecadentLinux...@decadence.org:
\"Commander Kinsey\" <C...@nospam.com> wrote in
news:eek:p.1kucb...@ryzen.lan:

On Fri, 15 Apr 2022 23:58:13 +0100, bitrex
us...@example.net> wrote:

I thought they were extruded, but no!

https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM

Like carving a turkey dinner

How does that even work? The bit at the end of each one
where it magically bends up to the vertical.


Copper \"work hardens\" and such a bend would create
micro-fractures right at the bend joint.

only if you try to bend it back, annealed copper is dead soft
only gets hard once you have bend it

I guess you are not very observant. The bend happens at the end
of each skiving, and the speed of the bending is what causes the
IMMEDIATE \'work hardening\' and no, \"bending it back\" is not
required. The solid matrix of copper atoms shears and
micro-fractures occur immediately. Regardless of the fact that
you are too inexperienced to understand the process. Your
precious \"full annealing\" disappears right at the bend and does
so immediately. Copper is one of the worst mediums for it too.

good thing we don\'t use copper pipes or wires then ...

They too fracture and that is why copper pipe runs for plumbing are
done with straight sections and then \"elbows\" and such are used to
make turns. Soft copper comes in rolls but get straightened for
installation and many runs And does not lend to being bent much as
the diameter collapses and flow suffers.

Wiring is similar inasmuch as nobody makes hard turns in wiring
runs, and the little loops made at the ends for termination should be
made in a slow fashion to minimize the effect of \'work hardening\'.
It is in fact taught in a proper electrical wiring / electrician\'s
class.

Sarcasm can be funny, but not so bright sarcasm, not so much.
 
Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-04-17 16:49, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-04-17 00:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
I thought they were extruded, but no!

https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM

Like carving a turkey dinner

Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

Those long skinny fins don\'t look efficient to me. And they would need
a huge air blast.

I don\'t think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

I don\'t think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

So they\'d be almost destroyed.

There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
dimensions. You know, numbers.

Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?

copper is a much better heat conductor than Al. It also costs more and
weighs more. In the processor world, you have to transfer the heat from
the relatively small surface of the procesor to the rest of the heatsink
in addition to transferring the heat to the air. So you\'ll see heatsinks
made of multiple metals. Everything is always a trade-off, somewhere.

All copper heatsinks are surpringly heavy, and still don\'t conduct heat
as well as good heat pipe, so you\'ll see heatpipes in some heatsinks even
where there is no need to move the heat somewhere else due to space
constraints, like in a laptop.
 
On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 19:31:19 +0100, Cydrome Leader <presence@mungepanix.com> wrote:

Commander Kinsey <CK1@nospam.com> wrote:
On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-04-17 16:49, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-04-17 00:23, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
presence@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:
I thought they were extruded, but no!

https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM

Like carving a turkey dinner

Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

Those long skinny fins don\'t look efficient to me. And they would need
a huge air blast.

I don\'t think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

I don\'t think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

So they\'d be almost destroyed.

There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
dimensions. You know, numbers.

Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?

copper is a much better heat conductor than Al. It also costs more and
weighs more. In the processor world, you have to transfer the heat from
the relatively small surface of the procesor to the rest of the heatsink
in addition to transferring the heat to the air. So you\'ll see heatsinks
made of multiple metals. Everything is always a trade-off, somewhere.

All copper heatsinks are surpringly heavy, and still don\'t conduct heat
as well as good heat pipe, so you\'ll see heatpipes in some heatsinks even
where there is no need to move the heat somewhere else due to space
constraints, like in a laptop.

Ah! Thankyou. I thought they were just making it look pretty as a marketing gimmick, my faith has been restored in science. Makes sense - I\'ve only ever seen dual metals on big heavy ones.
 
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another \"resistance\" in the heat movement.

You can\'t mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn\'t say \"can\'t\", but it\'s not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That\'s no less than on water coolers for CPUs.

I don\'t care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can\'t you understand that?

Because you\'re wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.

I\'m sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
You don\'t need a lower temperature. They\'re rated up to about 90C.

LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by

https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328

> aftermarket CPU cooling. So there\'s literally no point in this discussion.

If they\'re not doing it to lower the temperature, they\'re not right in the head.

As I\'ve pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don\'t even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.

Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.

Why? The CPU is happy at 90°C!

Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.

> What a tool. Like the other discussion, there\'s no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.

Saying that after you\'ve responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?
 
On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another \"resistance\" in the heat movement.

You can\'t mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn\'t say \"can\'t\", but it\'s not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That\'s no less than on water coolers for CPUs.

I don\'t care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can\'t you understand that?
Because you\'re wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.

Clearly there is no reason to think you are going to understand, but the fans are not the only factor in the equation of removing heat. If they were, they would just put the fans to blow on the CPU and a heat sink would not be needed. The design of the heat sink and fins are important to optimize heat removal from the CPU and transfer it to the air. That\'s what the water cooler or heat pipe do better than a simple, metal heat sink.


I\'m sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
You don\'t need a lower temperature. They\'re rated up to about 90C.

LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by
https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328
aftermarket CPU cooling. So there\'s literally no point in this discussion.
If they\'re not doing it to lower the temperature, they\'re not right in the head.

You are the one who just said the CPU runs at 90°C, so there\'s no reason to cool further.


As I\'ve pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don\'t even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.

Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.

Why? The CPU is happy at 90°C!
Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.
What a tool. Like the other discussion, there\'s no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.
Saying that after you\'ve responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?

As I expected. No point at all. You may be unwilling to learn anything, but I\'m starting to think you actually are unable. I don\'t get why you can\'t understand that most people who buy water cooling and heat pipes for the hot rod CPUs is to cool them as much as possible, so they can overclock them.

--

Rick C.

+--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 20:24:51 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 18:14:38 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:44:30 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:33:49 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:56:49 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:54:39 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
C...@nospam.com> wrote:

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
C...@nospam.com> wrote:

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
I thought they were extruded, but no!

https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM

Like carving a turkey dinner

Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

Those long skinny fins don\'t look efficient to me. And they would need
a huge air blast.

I don\'t think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

I don\'t think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

So they\'d be almost destroyed.

There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
dimensions. You know, numbers.

Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?

Post a picture and we can discuss it.
It\'s not complicated enough to need a picture. It\'s a CPU heatsink where the fins are aluminium at the bottom, then some copper, then some more aluminium.

A picture is worth 1,000 words.

Only for those who lack imagination. For the retarded, here\'s a little picture for you....
https://www.allround-pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zalman-CNPS20X-Beleuchtung.jpg

Do the colored LEDs improve heat transfer?

I never connected mine, and it seems to be ok. I guess it could be an indicator the fans are operating.

Gamer PCs and keyboards are always funny. I remember when cars had
tail fins and jeans had bell bottoms.

1957 Chevys are awesome.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
 
On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 22:29:21 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:

snip
Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
it just to make it look pretty?
Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

The coolers shown above are intended for use in a \"beige box.\" The
cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all
aesthetic aspects.
Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?

I don\'t think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it\'s freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great for spreading the heat out to the fins, but the fins don\'t need to be so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it to the air.

If only computers were still desktops and not towers.... Who thought it would be a good idea to have stuff hanging off things?
 
On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 23:28:06 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 5:41:29 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:

snip
Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
it just to make it look pretty?
Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

The coolers shown above are intended for use in a \"beige box.\" The
cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all
aesthetic aspects.
Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
I don\'t think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it\'s freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great for spreading the heat out to the fins, but the fins don\'t need to be so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it to the air.

https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs

but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there is probably not much benefit from expensive copper

I would be interesting to be able to take measurements of the temperature profile across a fin in a heatsink. You can do finite element analysis once you make your assumptions, but to get past the unknowns, measurements would be useful. I suppose all that really matters is the base temperature given an air source and air temperature. That delta T is all that is really important. But knowing the temperature distribution on the fin could help design better fins, perhaps. With the pressed in fins, it could be practical to alter the width of the fin from top to bottom. But I suppose there\'s not much point really. Just make the fins fat enough to carry as much heat as needed. I wonder if they have an equation for fin width/spacing vs. the number of fins, to identify the optimum?

Use an IR thermometer to test one of your own.

> Or just go with water cooling. I\'ve always liked that idea. I was going to build a water cooling system from scratch for a desktop. I ended up with a laptop before I got it ready for test. They already use heat pipes. It\'s hard to beat that. They have really tiny radiators with very, very thin fins, but lots of them. I wonder how they get any air to flow through them??? It must be magic.

Best watercooler has no fans on the radiator, or the radiator is in another room.
 
On Thu, 21 Apr 2022 05:29:20 +0100, Don <g@crcomp.net> wrote:

Lasse Langwadt Christensen <langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:
onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:

snip
Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
it just to make it look pretty?
Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

The coolers shown above are intended for use in a \"beige box.\" The
cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all
aesthetic aspects.
Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
I don\'t think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it\'s
freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight
onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great
for spreading the heat out to the fins, but the fins don\'t need to be
so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it
to the air.

https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs

but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there
is probably not much benefit from expensive copper

Here\'s a solid copper server cooler shown next to a light-weight desktop
bi-metallic:

https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/serverdesktop.png

The copper cooler weighs 989 g versus 256 g for the bi-metallic. The
metal standoffs of the heavier cooler are designed to pass through over-
sized motherboard holes and bolt directly to a server chassis. The
lighter aluminum cooler uses plastic standoffs to secure itself directly
to a desktop motherboard instead.
Both copper and aluminum fins feel firm to the touch.

The one on the right is shit, it lets my i5-8600K reach 100C and thermally throttle if I use all 6 cores and the onboard GPU to the max.
 
On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 1:16:14 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 23:28:06 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 5:41:29 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:

snip
Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
it just to make it look pretty?
Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

The coolers shown above are intended for use in a \"beige box.\" The
cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all
aesthetic aspects.
Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
I don\'t think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it\'s freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great for spreading the heat out to the fins, but the fins don\'t need to be so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it to the air.

https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs

but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there is probably not much benefit from expensive copper

I would be interesting to be able to take measurements of the temperature profile across a fin in a heatsink. You can do finite element analysis once you make your assumptions, but to get past the unknowns, measurements would be useful. I suppose all that really matters is the base temperature given an air source and air temperature. That delta T is all that is really important. But knowing the temperature distribution on the fin could help design better fins, perhaps. With the pressed in fins, it could be practical to alter the width of the fin from top to bottom. But I suppose there\'s not much point really. Just make the fins fat enough to carry as much heat as needed. I wonder if they have an equation for fin width/spacing vs. the number of fins, to identify the optimum?

Use an IR thermometer to test one of your own.

Sometimes you just have no fucking clue! Well, for a wide range of \"sometimes\".

--

Rick C.

+--+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+--+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
On Fri, 29 Apr 2022 05:22:25 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, April 28, 2022 at 1:16:14 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 23:28:06 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 5:41:29 PM UTC-4, lang...@fonz.dk wrote:
onsdag den 20. april 2022 kl. 23.29.25 UTC+2 skrev Ricky:
On Wednesday, April 20, 2022 at 3:09:35 PM UTC-4, Don wrote:
Commander Kinsey wrote:

snip
Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins
and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is
it just to make it look pretty?
Good question. For decades now, Intel retailed bi-metallic CPU coolers
with copper baseplates and aluminum fins:

https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/bottom.png
https://crcomp.net/misc/heatsink/top.png

The coolers shown above are intended for use in a \"beige box.\" The
cooler fan on top of the copper core and the CPU beneath it obscure all
aesthetic aspects.
Perhaps the copper provides superior thermal conductivity while the
aluminum offers greater mechanical strength?
I don\'t think copper is not strong enough for a heat sink, but it\'s freaking heavy compared to aluminum. You can only bolt so much weight onto these boards before it causes problems. The copper base is great for spreading the heat out to the fins, but the fins don\'t need to be so highly conductive to carry their portion of the heat and couple it to the air.

https://youtu.be/Q7qVpWu2QYs

but as you say, once the heat has been spread over a larger area there is probably not much benefit from expensive copper

I would be interesting to be able to take measurements of the temperature profile across a fin in a heatsink. You can do finite element analysis once you make your assumptions, but to get past the unknowns, measurements would be useful. I suppose all that really matters is the base temperature given an air source and air temperature. That delta T is all that is really important. But knowing the temperature distribution on the fin could help design better fins, perhaps. With the pressed in fins, it could be practical to alter the width of the fin from top to bottom. But I suppose there\'s not much point really. Just make the fins fat enough to carry as much heat as needed. I wonder if they have an equation for fin width/spacing vs. the number of fins, to identify the optimum?

Use an IR thermometer to test one of your own.

Sometimes you just have no fucking clue! Well, for a wide range of \"sometimes\".

If you\'re going to disagree with me, to prevent yourself from looking like a wanker, explain why you believe I\'m wrong. I have such a thermometer and can very quickly tell the temperature of every part of a heatsink. Having 96 CPU cores and 8 GPUs, I tend to analyze temperatures a lot.
 
On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another \"resistance\" in the heat movement.

You can\'t mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU.. Well, I shouldn\'t say \"can\'t\", but it\'s not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That\'s no less than on water coolers for CPUs.

I don\'t care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can\'t you understand that?
Because you\'re wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.

Clearly there is no reason to think you are going to understand, but the fans are not the only factor in the equation of removing heat. If they were, they would just put the fans to blow on the CPU and a heat sink would not be needed. The design of the heat sink and fins are important to optimize heat removal from the CPU and transfer it to the air. That\'s what the water cooler or heat pipe do better than a simple, metal heat sink.

And the heatsink on watercoolers is no better than the ones directly on the CPU. The bottleneck is moving heat from fins to air. Traditional watercooling doesn\'t change this.

I\'m sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever.. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
You don\'t need a lower temperature. They\'re rated up to about 90C.

LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by
https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328
aftermarket CPU cooling. So there\'s literally no point in this discussion.
If they\'re not doing it to lower the temperature, they\'re not right in the head.

You are the one who just said the CPU runs at 90°C, so there\'s no reason to cool further.

I\'ve never seen a CPU get that high with decent air cooling.

As I\'ve pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don\'t even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.

Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.

Why? The CPU is happy at 90°C!
Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.
What a tool. Like the other discussion, there\'s no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.
Saying that after you\'ve responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?

As I expected. No point at all.

That\'s a yes then. Do you have specs?

> You may be unwilling to learn anything, but I\'m starting to think you actually are unable. I don\'t get why you can\'t understand that most people who buy water cooling and heat pipes for the hot rod CPUs is to cool them as much as possible, so they can overclock them.

Then they are fools.
 
On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 4:19:03 PM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
You may be unwilling to learn anything, but I\'m starting to think you actually are unable. I don\'t get why you can\'t understand that most people who buy water cooling and heat pipes for the hot rod CPUs is to cool them as much as possible, so they can overclock them.

Then they are fools.

The fool here is Comander Kinsey. He sees the CPU at one end of the heat dissipating arrangement and the finned heat sink at the other dissipating the heat generated, and hasn\'t noticed that there\'s a thermal gradient from the CPU to the surface of the air-cooled heat sink.

The copper block next to the CPU get almost as hot as the CPU. A heat pipe soldered onto that copper block can carry a lot of heat (as the latent heat of fusion of vaporised water) with very little temperature drop and dump it on to a much larger condensing area at the other end of the heat pipe where it can get spread across a fairly wide area under a large number of air-cooled fins, none of which have to get all that hot to transfer their little bit of heat to the passing air.

More dissipating fin area means the CPU doesn\'t need to get as hot to get rid of the heat it is dissipating. This might have dumbed it all down enough to make it comprehensible to Commander Kinsey, but since he isn\'t all that interested in understanding what\'s going, comprehension isn\'t his favourite activity. Poncing around telling people that stuff doesn\'t really matter is more his line.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 2:19:03 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another \"resistance\" in the heat movement.

You can\'t mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn\'t say \"can\'t\", but it\'s not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That\'s no less than on water coolers for CPUs.

I don\'t care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can\'t you understand that?
Because you\'re wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.

Clearly there is no reason to think you are going to understand, but the fans are not the only factor in the equation of removing heat. If they were, they would just put the fans to blow on the CPU and a heat sink would not be needed. The design of the heat sink and fins are important to optimize heat removal from the CPU and transfer it to the air. That\'s what the water cooler or heat pipe do better than a simple, metal heat sink.
And the heatsink on watercoolers is no better than the ones directly on the CPU. The bottleneck is moving heat from fins to air. Traditional watercooling doesn\'t change this.

It\'s not a bottleneck. It\'s a resistance. Thermal flow is exactly like resistance in an electrical circuit. The total resistance is the sum of the individual series resistances. You have no basis for claiming the thermal resistance at the metal to air interface is significantly larger than the resistance elsewhere. So reducing the resistance of the heat flow to the fins already reduces the total thermal resistance. In addition, you are assuming the fins, fans and everything else are the same. There\'s no reason to think that. Moving the bulk of the heat sink off the CPU means it can be designed without restriction to the weight. Noting the fans have the same diameter blades does not make the whole thing equivalent.

I know you aren\'t going to understand this and are going to be in denial about it. But, whatever. You clearly have your intellectual limitations.


I\'m sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
You don\'t need a lower temperature. They\'re rated up to about 90C.

LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by
https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328
aftermarket CPU cooling. So there\'s literally no point in this discussion.
If they\'re not doing it to lower the temperature, they\'re not right in the head.

You are the one who just said the CPU runs at 90°C, so there\'s no reason to cool further.
I\'ve never seen a CPU get that high with decent air cooling.

Now you are doubling down on the idea. ;


As I\'ve pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don\'t even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.

Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.

Why? The CPU is happy at 90°C!
Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.
What a tool. Like the other discussion, there\'s no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.
Saying that after you\'ve responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?

As I expected. No point at all.
That\'s a yes then. Do you have specs?

LOL


You may be unwilling to learn anything, but I\'m starting to think you actually are unable. I don\'t get why you can\'t understand that most people who buy water cooling and heat pipes for the hot rod CPUs is to cool them as much as possible, so they can overclock them.
Then they are fools.

Yes, anyone who does things you don\'t, is a fool. That cuts both ways.

--

Rick C.

+-+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+-+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209
 
On Wed, 20 Apr 2022 18:12:40 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 20:24:51 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 18:14:38 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 17:44:30 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
CK1@nospam.com> wrote:

On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:33:49 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Monday, April 18, 2022 at 6:56:49 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:54:39 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:52:56 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
C...@nospam.com> wrote:

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 23:50:48 +0100, John Larkin <jlarkin@highland_atwork_technology.com> wrote:

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:52:28 +0100, \"Commander Kinsey\"
C...@nospam.com> wrote:

On Mon, 18 Apr 2022 22:42:17 +0100, Carlos E.R. <robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-04-17 16:49, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 17 Apr 2022 12:31:52 +0200, \"Carlos E.R.\"
robin_...@es.invalid> wrote:

On 2022-04-17 00:23, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sat, 16 Apr 2022 19:51:56 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader
pres...@MUNGEpanix.com> wrote:

bitrex <us...@example.net> wrote:
I thought they were extruded, but no!

https://youtu.be/wwWIyHo3yJM

Like carving a turkey dinner

Skiving is real slow. The only value is you get thinner fins than can be
extruded. More machining is needed if you want holes though any of that.

Those long skinny fins don\'t look efficient to me. And they would need
a huge air blast.

I don\'t think so: a strong air blast would bend the fins.

That strong would destroy the enclosure and kill bystanders.

I don\'t think so, those fins are almost paper thin.

So they\'d be almost destroyed.

There are data sheets for heat sinks. I suspect they include
dimensions. You know, numbers.

Since you know so much about them, why does mine have some copper fins and some aluminium? Surely either one or the other is better? Or is it just to make it look pretty?

Post a picture and we can discuss it.
It\'s not complicated enough to need a picture. It\'s a CPU heatsink where the fins are aluminium at the bottom, then some copper, then some more aluminium.

A picture is worth 1,000 words.

Only for those who lack imagination. For the retarded, here\'s a little picture for you....
https://www.allround-pc.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Zalman-CNPS20X-Beleuchtung.jpg

Do the colored LEDs improve heat transfer?

I never connected mine, and it seems to be ok. I guess it could be an indicator the fans are operating.

Gamer PCs and keyboards are always funny. I remember when cars had
tail fins

Probably removed by the health and softy committee in case you reverse at high speed in to a pedestrian.

Donald Trump\'s car drifting in reverse very fast: https://youtu.be/6elLDemrDls

I was once told by the police I had to get my car reg number replaced because it was loose, so it could fly off, spin round, and chop somebody\'s head off. His reasoning? He\'d seen it in the film Blade Runner 2. Telling him that was fictional got him very angry indeed. But then he did have beard.
 
On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:26:07 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 2:19:03 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another \"resistance\" in the heat movement.

You can\'t mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn\'t say \"can\'t\", but it\'s not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That\'s no less than on water coolers for CPUs.

I don\'t care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can\'t you understand that?
Because you\'re wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.

Clearly there is no reason to think you are going to understand, but the fans are not the only factor in the equation of removing heat. If they were, they would just put the fans to blow on the CPU and a heat sink would not be needed. The design of the heat sink and fins are important to optimize heat removal from the CPU and transfer it to the air. That\'s what the water cooler or heat pipe do better than a simple, metal heat sink.
And the heatsink on watercoolers is no better than the ones directly on the CPU. The bottleneck is moving heat from fins to air. Traditional watercooling doesn\'t change this.

It\'s not a bottleneck. It\'s a resistance. Thermal flow is exactly like resistance in an electrical circuit. The total resistance is the sum of the individual series resistances.

I know very well what it is, I have a fucking physics degree. But bottleneck is a reasonable colloquial term for anything which is the main cause of a reduction in something. Think of traffic flowing along a highway then through a one lane roadworks, that\'s a bottleneck. It\'s also a resistance.

> You have no basis for claiming the thermal resistance at the metal to air interface is significantly larger than the resistance elsewhere.

Basic physics tells us it is. Air doesn\'t conduct like solid.

> So reducing the resistance of the heat flow to the fins already reduces the total thermal resistance. In addition, you are assuming the fins, fans and everything else are the same. There\'s no reason to think that.. Moving the bulk of the heat sink off the CPU means it can be designed without restriction to the weight. Noting the fans have the same diameter blades does not make the whole thing equivalent.

You\'re adding more resistance, metal to water than back to metal again.

> I know you aren\'t going to understand this and are going to be in denial about it. But, whatever. You clearly have your intellectual limitations.

Anybody who uses the term \"in denial\" is probably one those greenies who thinks logical people are denying their hippy warming movement.

I\'m sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
You don\'t need a lower temperature. They\'re rated up to about 90C.

LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by
https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328
aftermarket CPU cooling. So there\'s literally no point in this discussion.
If they\'re not doing it to lower the temperature, they\'re not right in the head.

You are the one who just said the CPU runs at 90°C, so there\'s no reason to cool further.
I\'ve never seen a CPU get that high with decent air cooling.

Now you are doubling down on the idea. ;

WTF? I\'m pointing out air cooling keeps it well below the max.

As I\'ve pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don\'t even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.

Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.

Why? The CPU is happy at 90°C!
Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.
What a tool. Like the other discussion, there\'s no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.
Saying that after you\'ve responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?

As I expected. No point at all.
That\'s a yes then. Do you have specs?

LOL

That\'s also a yes. Electronic analysis of this thread determines this has a 76% chance of being you:
https://st2.depositphotos.com/1026266/10481/i/450/depositphotos_104819176-stock-photo-computer-geek-typing-on-keyboard.jpg
Poor eyesight, unable to shave, no muscles, not worthy of anything.

You may be unwilling to learn anything, but I\'m starting to think you actually are unable. I don\'t get why you can\'t understand that most people who buy water cooling and heat pipes for the hot rod CPUs is to cool them as much as possible, so they can overclock them.
Then they are fools.

Yes, anyone who does things you don\'t, is a fool. That cuts both ways..

No it doesn\'t. You can\'t just put in cliches and make them apply to me.

There\'s a reason your 4GHz CPU isn\'t sold at 4.4GHz. Because it\'s not reliable at that speed.
 
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 7:13:56 PM UTC+10, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:26:07 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 2:19:03 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

Then they are fools.

Yes, anyone who does things you don\'t, is a fool. That cuts both ways.

No it doesn\'t. You can\'t just put in cliches and make them apply to me.

It\'s hard to find a cliche that doesn\'t apply to Commander Kinsey. He is a very stereotyped wanker.

> There\'s a reason your 4GHz CPU isn\'t sold at 4.4GHz. Because it\'s not reliable at that speed.

Actually its more that only some parts keep on working when clocked that fast. The specifications that manufacturers slap on a part are set by the production yield that they get when they test to that specification. They seem to want 95% yield or better, if they can get it, so the specifications tend to be conservative.

Over-clockers are interested in seeing how fast they can run the part they happen to have bought, with the chip cooler they decided to put on it.

When we put in select on test parts to compensate for production tolerances, parts from the same batch were a lot more similar to one another than parts from different batches (and we bought in batches that covered about six months production, so the guys doing the testing got pretty bored with putting in the same resistor for months on end). Parts that came from the same wafer might be even more similar.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney
 
On Thursday, May 5, 2022 at 5:13:56 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Sat, 30 Apr 2022 14:26:07 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, April 30, 2022 at 2:19:03 AM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Mon, 25 Apr 2022 03:26:12 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, April 24, 2022 at 7:58:10 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 23:45:19 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 4:38:20 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 21:32:44 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 3:32:07 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 19:51:01 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, April 19, 2022 at 12:42:08 PM UTC-4, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Tue, 19 Apr 2022 00:32:29 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.del...@gmail.com> wrote:

What do you think needs to be explained? What do you not understand?
Why the device in the image is any better than air cooling.. Since it is still air cooling, but 6 inches away.

It cools better in the sense of moving more heat with a lower temperature delta. What part of this do you not understand? Do you think every combination of heat sink and fan works the same?
It moves as much heat as the fan speed and heatsink surface area allow. Moving this further away serves no purpose apart from introducing another \"resistance\" in the heat movement.

You can\'t mount such large fans on a heat sink bolted to the CPU. Well, I shouldn\'t say \"can\'t\", but it\'s not recommended. At some point there is not sufficient strength to support such a large mass on such a long lever arm.
I have two 6 inch fans on mine. That\'s no less than on water coolers for CPUs.

I don\'t care about your 6 inches. The water cooler is a more effective cooler and lowers the CPU temperature. Why can\'t you understand that?
Because you\'re wrong, if you have two 6 inch fans on your water cooler radiator, you have the same air to heatsink cooling.

Clearly there is no reason to think you are going to understand, but the fans are not the only factor in the equation of removing heat. If they were, they would just put the fans to blow on the CPU and a heat sink would not be needed. The design of the heat sink and fins are important to optimize heat removal from the CPU and transfer it to the air. That\'s what the water cooler or heat pipe do better than a simple, metal heat sink.
And the heatsink on watercoolers is no better than the ones directly on the CPU. The bottleneck is moving heat from fins to air. Traditional watercooling doesn\'t change this.

It\'s not a bottleneck. It\'s a resistance. Thermal flow is exactly like resistance in an electrical circuit. The total resistance is the sum of the individual series resistances.
I know very well what it is, I have a fucking physics degree. But bottleneck is a reasonable colloquial term for anything which is the main cause of a reduction in something. Think of traffic flowing along a highway then through a one lane roadworks, that\'s a bottleneck. It\'s also a resistance.

If you have a physics degree, you would understand the differences between traffic and electrical resistance. So clearly I have caught you in a lie.

I don\'t need a poor analogy, because I understand resistance. Why not just work with thermal resistance, rather than talking in analogies that you clearly don\'t understand.


You have no basis for claiming the thermal resistance at the metal to air interface is significantly larger than the resistance elsewhere.
Basic physics tells us it is. Air doesn\'t conduct like solid.

Lol! So that\'s physicist talk, \"Air doesn\'t conduct like a solid\"? The air in this situation doesn\'t need to conduct heat. It accepts heat from contact with the heat sink fins, and the movement of the air transports that heat away. Conduction has little to do with it other than possibly the very thin layer at the air-metal surface where it does conduct just like any other material.


So reducing the resistance of the heat flow to the fins already reduces the total thermal resistance. In addition, you are assuming the fins, fans and everything else are the same. There\'s no reason to think that. Moving the bulk of the heat sink off the CPU means it can be designed without restriction to the weight. Noting the fans have the same diameter blades does not make the whole thing equivalent.
You\'re adding more resistance, metal to water than back to metal again.

Again, you can\'t understand that the remainder of the system does not need to be the same. You can\'t look at one portion of the system and talk about the entire system. You want desperately for the two systems to be otherwise identical, but there is no reason to believe that.


I know you aren\'t going to understand this and are going to be in denial about it. But, whatever. You clearly have your intellectual limitations.
Anybody who uses the term \"in denial\" is probably one those greenies who thinks logical people are denying their hippy warming movement.

Or they are discussing something with someone who is in denial.


I\'m sure you will find some insane heat sink somewhere. Whatever. This is the reason for water cooling. To get a lower temperature at the CPU than you can get with an attached heat sink and fan.
You don\'t need a lower temperature. They\'re rated up to about 90C.

LOL!!!! You have no understanding of why people by
https://www.thoughtco.com/buy-by-and-bye-1689328
aftermarket CPU cooling. So there\'s literally no point in this discussion.
If they\'re not doing it to lower the temperature, they\'re not right in the head.

You are the one who just said the CPU runs at 90°C, so there\'s no reason to cool further.
I\'ve never seen a CPU get that high with decent air cooling.

Now you are doubling down on the idea. ;
WTF? I\'m pointing out air cooling keeps it well below the max.

Which is an irrelevant point. People buy water cooling to get as low a CPU temperature as possible, so they can overclock as high a speed as they can get. It\'s like any other pursuit where the the goal is to optimize something, far beyond what is useful. It\'s a hobby.


As I\'ve pointed out, with some water cooling setups, you don\'t even need a fan, just a pump which is much, much quieter and that can be in another room. The one guy put his in the garage. No fan, no radiator, just a barrel and a pump.
Those make sense. I used to have one. Big water tower behind my desk.

Someone I know on the Boinc projects has several GPUs water cooled by a domestic central heating radiator, which is outside his house. Could be inside, but he lives in a hot place.

Why? The CPU is happy at 90°C!
Because he puts GPUs bang up against each other with no air gap, and wants the heat outside the house.
What a tool. Like the other discussion, there\'s no point in continuing. I think you are a self contradiction.
Saying that after you\'ve responded to every point makes you a silly little child who has to get the last word in. Were you bullied at school?

As I expected. No point at all.
That\'s a yes then. Do you have specs?

LOL
That\'s also a yes. Electronic analysis of this thread determines this has a 76% chance of being you:
https://st2.depositphotos.com/1026266/10481/i/450/depositphotos_104819176-stock-photo-computer-geek-typing-on-keyboard.jpg
Poor eyesight, unable to shave, no muscles, not worthy of anything.

You are right about the eyesight. Not so right about the muscles, etc. I was captain of the wrestling team and have been very successful in life. You, meanwhile, are reduced to the pathetic presence you project in this group, completely unable to have a meaningful discussion, largely devoid of friends.


You may be unwilling to learn anything, but I\'m starting to think you actually are unable. I don\'t get why you can\'t understand that most people who buy water cooling and heat pipes for the hot rod CPUs is to cool them as much as possible, so they can overclock them.
Then they are fools.

Yes, anyone who does things you don\'t, is a fool. That cuts both ways.
No it doesn\'t. You can\'t just put in cliches and make them apply to me.

There\'s a reason your 4GHz CPU isn\'t sold at 4.4GHz. Because it\'s not reliable at that speed.

Again, you fail to understand anything at all about this thread. You are an interesting case, but I think you have been explored enough. This is pretty much a hobby, and you are getting boring.

--

Rick C.

+-++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
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On Thu, 05 May 2022 15:19:18 +0100, Ricky <gnuarm.deletethisbit@gmail.com> wrote:

> ----a reply to my post after you claimed you weren\'t going to reply again, after I made a Jewish comment. So you\'re a liar. Or your killfile broke.
 

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