How can you possibly fall off a self balancing scooter?

"NY" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:SPSdnYPFJZAhqdfBnZ2dnUU78I_NnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.zv43n4dgwdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2019 20:47:28 -0000, Romera Etafodor
romera.etafodor@usa.guv> wrote:

On 1/24/2019 3:07 PM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
I tried one, once, I couldn't stay on it. I see countless Youtube
videos of people falling off them. But why? If you are about to fall
over backwards, shouldn't it feel the tilt of your feet and simply roll
under your centre of gravity? It should
be impossible to fall off.


Half the people on the planet are below average IQ so are incapable of
riding a self balancing scooter.

For the double-digit IQ crowd there is the Teknique HD6 powered
wheelchair.

https://www.hoveround.com/mobility-solutions/power-wheelchairs/heavy-duty/teknique-hd6 .

My point was why does the rider need any skill whatsoever? The device
should move under your centre of gravity automatically. Perhaps they
have to be calibrated, and people falling off are borrowing someone
else's of a different height or weight?

I wonder whether a lot of the problems with people falling off are that
they are scared when they tilt too far, and instinctively try to correct
by adjusting their position instead of standing still and letting the
scooter do the adjustments to keep you level, or else they panic and jump
off.

I probably went through all those stages in the first 30 mins of getting
on a Segway for the first time. But after a while you develop and refine
the muscle memory to work out just how much you need to move to stay level
and not to "fight the machine" - similar to the skills you acquire when
you learn to ride a bike.

I'd be interested to see if now, two years after my one and only chance to
ride a Segway, I'd take less time to adjust to it again. Is it like riding
a bike, I wonder: once you've learned, it always comes back to you, even
if you haven't ridden for many years.

As regards riding a different Segway, yes, I found it does make a
difference. My wife and I were given different sizes/models of Segway,
appropriate to our height and weight, and even after I was pretty damn
good on the one I'd been given, I had great difficulty when I borrowed my
wife's to try it - presumably different sensitivity and amount of motor
correction that I would have to adjust to.

It's a skill that has to be learned: it's a myth that you can get on one
having never ridden it before and immediately manage to stay on in all
circumstances. But it doesn't take long to acquire the skill. The route
that our tour guide took us on started with straight, level paths, then
gradually introduced gradients (it was great fun to lean right forward and
go bombing up a hill to the Roman Lighthouse in Corunna), and by then end
of our time, he took us through streets in the town centre where there
were lots of people that we had to avoid. Going over cobbles and raised
manhole covers was "interesting". No pedestrians were harmed :)

Pity about all the dogs you ran over |-(
 
On Thu, 24 Jan 2019 23:14:20 -0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

"Steven" <shy543@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:gauuddFbvofU1@mid.individual.net...


"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.zv457rk6wdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2019 21:26:37 -0000, Steven <shy543@gmail.com> wrote:



When say it decides you are falling backwards, and moves back,
while you are standing on it, the complete assembly of you and
the scooter moves back and it doesn't change where it is relative
to the person's center of gravity.

Let's say you're stood stationary and upright on it, not moving. Now,
you lose your balance a little and begin to fall over backwards. Your
feet tilt backwards, the device senses this, and moves backwards. You're
now still over the device

Yes, but it can't move under the center of gravity while your feet are
still on it.

You've forgotten Newton 3: "for every action, there is an equal and opposite
reaction".

It moves the wheels by the motor exerting a torque on them. This causes an
equal and opposite torque on the scooter-and-human, thus moving the person's
C of G relative to the axle until the C of G is once again directly over the
axle. This is how it corrects for the person leaning too far forwards or
backwards.

If the person leans back, the sensors detect that the scooter is tipping
backwards, and rotates the wheels backwards, thus tipping the person
forwards.

He's a thick Australian, and has changed name again. He gets really upset when I don't talk to him. His real name is "Rod Speeed" (with two Es - if I used two my newsreader would remove the thread).
 
On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:55:47 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rot Speed,
the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Pity about all the dogs you ran over |-(

More pity that nobody ran you over yet, senile cretin!

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID: <ev1p6ml7ywd5$.dlg@sqwertz.com>
 
On Thu, 24 Jan 2019 23:14:20 -0000, NY, the brain damaged, notorious,
troll-feeding senile idiot, babbled again:


> You've forgotten Newton 3

You sure got a knack for sucking off the filthiest trolls around, you
abnormal troll-feeding senile cretin!
 
On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 10:00:49 +1100, Steven, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rot Speed, wrote:


That doesn't happen.

The only thing that happens here is your and his trolling, you senile
subnormal cretin!

--
"Anonymous" to trolling senile Rot Speed:
"You can fuck off as you know less than pig shit you sad
little ignorant cunt."
MID: <62dcaae57b421e2b3b10e97d9c0ddf08@haph.org>
 
On Thu, 24 Jan 2019 22:46:36 -0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.zv46k0w3wdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2019 21:57:01 -0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
My point was why does the rider need any skill whatsoever? The device
should move under your centre of gravity automatically. Perhaps they
have
to be calibrated, and people falling off are borrowing someone else's of
a
different height or weight?

I wonder whether a lot of the problems with people falling off are that
they
are scared when they tilt too far, and instinctively try to correct by
adjusting their position instead of standing still and letting the
scooter
do the adjustments to keep you level, or else they panic and jump off.

When I tried one, when I lost my balance it appeared to scoot off in the
wrong direction - eg I fell over backwards and the scooter went forwards.
No idea why - it should have been trying to power itself backwards
underneath me.

I probably went through all those stages in the first 30 mins of getting
on
a Segway for the first time. But after a while you develop and refine the
muscle memory to work out just how much you need to move to stay level
and
not to "fight the machine" - similar to the skills you acquire when you
learn to ride a bike.

But with a bike, you have to balance, with these devices surely they
should be doing the balancing for you? You should never actually fall
over, because no matter what you do, it moves under you.

I imagine the control logic has to be very clever because it has to cope
with a human standing on it. If you had a rigid human-sized figure on it,
and you pushed it so it was about to topple over, the logic would easily
correct for this.

Now substitute a real person with knee and hip joints, able to adjust their
own balance sideways and fore/aft, and liable to try to make their own
corrections which may counteract those that the scooter tries to make, and
you've complicated things a lot. A Segway, like a bicycle, is inherently
unstable and needs advanced control logic (whether human or computer!) to
keep it upright and to make corrections. I understand that it has now been
found to be a myth that the gyroscopic effect of the wheels plays much of a
part in keeping a bike upright, and that it's all down to minute adjustments
of the steering.

I knew steering played a big part (I thought about 50%) because I've seen a trick played where people are given bicycles with fixed steering, and it's very difficult to balance on them. I'm sure the wheels play a big part too - if you remove a bicycle wheel and keep the hub, then spin it holding the wheelnuts, it's difficult to turn over. Mind you, maybe that's not enough to prevent the weight of the rider falling over too.

I wonder how long it will be (if ever!) before the UK allows Segways etc to
be used anywhere other than private property - ie anywhere that the public
might be. We seem to be very backward in allowing them,

They can go anywhere already - that stupid law is not enforced.

whereas an unskilled
person on a bicycle or roller skates or one of those bloody mobility
scooters can easily injure a bystander. I still have the bruise on my hip
and my foot

I'm sure you'll live. I do find it amusing that the faster species of scooter (they have 4mph and 8mph versions) are not allowed on pavements, when I can legally run on a pavement at well over 8mph.

where an old biddy reversed into me repeatedly in the
supermarket ("the scooter won't move, so I'll keep trying until it does")
and then drove over my foot. And she had the audacity to swear at *me*, when
I was trying very hard not to swear at *her*. She rode off in a huff and hit
a display stand. Poor woman wasn't safe to have control of a scooter.

I find more problems with pedestrians in supermarkets. I was pushing my trolley along quite normally the other week when someone walked backwards into the end of it. He then yelled at me "You could have said something!" So I replied "Like what? Get out of my way you incompetant moron? I hope it's your wife that's driving home...." She was somewhat amused, and he was not.
 
"Steven" <shy543@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:gauuddFbvofU1@mid.individual.net...
"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.zv457rk6wdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2019 21:26:37 -0000, Steven <shy543@gmail.com> wrote:



When say it decides you are falling backwards, and moves back,
while you are standing on it, the complete assembly of you and
the scooter moves back and it doesn't change where it is relative
to the person's center of gravity.

Let's say you're stood stationary and upright on it, not moving. Now,
you lose your balance a little and begin to fall over backwards. Your
feet tilt backwards, the device senses this, and moves backwards. You're
now still over the device

Yes, but it can't move under the center of gravity while your feet are
still on it.

You've forgotten Newton 3: "for every action, there is an equal and opposite
reaction".

It moves the wheels by the motor exerting a torque on them. This causes an
equal and opposite torque on the scooter-and-human, thus moving the person's
C of G relative to the axle until the C of G is once again directly over the
axle. This is how it corrects for the person leaning too far forwards or
backwards.

If the person leans back, the sensors detect that the scooter is tipping
backwards, and rotates the wheels backwards, thus tipping the person
forwards.
 
"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.zv457rk6wdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2019 21:26:37 -0000, Steven <shy543@gmail.com> wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.zv43lzx3wdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2019 20:43:14 -0000, Steven <shy543@gmail.com> wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.zv40t1vfwdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...

I tried one, once, I couldn't stay on it. I see countless Youtube
videos
of people falling off them. But why? If you are about to fall over
backwards, shouldn't it feel the tilt of your feet and simply roll
under
your centre of gravity?

Not possible with your feet still on it.

What isn't possible? It moving under you or you falling off it?

"simply roll under your centre of gravity" while ever your feet are still
on
it.

Why would that not be possible?

When say it decides you are falling backwards, and moves back,
while you are standing on it, the complete assembly of you and
the scooter moves back and it doesn't change where it is relative
to the person's center of gravity.

Let's say you're stood stationary and upright on it, not moving. Now, you
lose your balance a little and begin to fall over backwards. Your feet
tilt backwards, the device senses this, and moves backwards. You're now
still over the device

Yes, but it can't move under the center of gravity while your feet are still
on it.

> and don't fall off it.

The scooter moving backwards has done nothing to stop you falling backwards.

The more you tilt over, the faster it goes, moving your feet so they're
under your centre of gravity,

That doesn't happen.

> thus you don't fall.
 
"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.zv46k0w3wdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2019 21:57:01 -0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
My point was why does the rider need any skill whatsoever? The device
should move under your centre of gravity automatically. Perhaps they
have
to be calibrated, and people falling off are borrowing someone else's of
a
different height or weight?

I wonder whether a lot of the problems with people falling off are that
they
are scared when they tilt too far, and instinctively try to correct by
adjusting their position instead of standing still and letting the
scooter
do the adjustments to keep you level, or else they panic and jump off.

When I tried one, when I lost my balance it appeared to scoot off in the
wrong direction - eg I fell over backwards and the scooter went forwards.
No idea why - it should have been trying to power itself backwards
underneath me.

I probably went through all those stages in the first 30 mins of getting
on
a Segway for the first time. But after a while you develop and refine the
muscle memory to work out just how much you need to move to stay level
and
not to "fight the machine" - similar to the skills you acquire when you
learn to ride a bike.

But with a bike, you have to balance, with these devices surely they
should be doing the balancing for you? You should never actually fall
over, because no matter what you do, it moves under you.

I imagine the control logic has to be very clever because it has to cope
with a human standing on it. If you had a rigid human-sized figure on it,
and you pushed it so it was about to topple over, the logic would easily
correct for this.

Now substitute a real person with knee and hip joints, able to adjust their
own balance sideways and fore/aft, and liable to try to make their own
corrections which may counteract those that the scooter tries to make, and
you've complicated things a lot. A Segway, like a bicycle, is inherently
unstable and needs advanced control logic (whether human or computer!) to
keep it upright and to make corrections. I understand that it has now been
found to be a myth that the gyroscopic effect of the wheels plays much of a
part in keeping a bike upright, and that it's all down to minute adjustments
of the steering.

I wonder how long it will be (if ever!) before the UK allows Segways etc to
be used anywhere other than private property - ie anywhere that the public
might be. We seem to be very backward in allowing them, whereas an unskilled
person on a bicycle or roller skates or one of those bloody mobility
scooters can easily injure a bystander. I still have the bruise on my hip
and my foot where an old biddy reversed into me repeatedly in the
supermarket ("the scooter won't move, so I'll keep trying until it does")
and then drove over my foot. And she had the audacity to swear at *me*, when
I was trying very hard not to swear at *her*. She rode off in a huff and hit
a display stand. Poor woman wasn't safe to have control of a scooter.
 
"NY" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:Odqdnc3cerV429fBnZ2dnUU78UXNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
"Steven" <shy543@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:gauuddFbvofU1@mid.individual.net...


"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.zv457rk6wdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...
On Thu, 24 Jan 2019 21:26:37 -0000, Steven <shy543@gmail.com> wrote:



When say it decides you are falling backwards, and moves back,
while you are standing on it, the complete assembly of you and
the scooter moves back and it doesn't change where it is relative
to the person's center of gravity.

Let's say you're stood stationary and upright on it, not moving. Now,
you lose your balance a little and begin to fall over backwards. Your
feet tilt backwards, the device senses this, and moves backwards.
You're now still over the device

Yes, but it can't move under the center of gravity while your feet are
still on it.

You've forgotten Newton 3: "for every action, there is an equal and
opposite reaction".

Nope.

It moves the wheels by the motor exerting a torque on them. This causes an
equal and opposite torque on the scooter-and-human,

Yes.

> thus moving the person's C of G relative to the axle

Nope, because the tilt of the human doesn't change much.

> until the C of G is once again directly over the axle.

Fraid not.

This is how it corrects for the person leaning too far forwards or
backwards.

No, it applies force, it doesn't shift the CoG.

If the person leans back, the sensors detect that the scooter is tipping
backwards, and rotates the wheels backwards, thus tipping the person
forwards.

By force, not by moving the CoG
 
On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 11:15:07 +1100, Steven, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rot Speed, wrote:

<FLUSH all the idiotic trollshit unread again>

....and much better air in here again.

--
Richard addressing Rot Speed:
"Shit you're thick/pathetic excuse for a troll."
MID: <ogoa38$pul$1@news.mixmin.net>
 
"Steven" <shy543@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:gav2ojFcs0sU1@mid.individual.net...
"NY" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:Odqdnc3cerV429fBnZ2dnUU78UXNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
Let's say you're stood stationary and upright on it, not moving. Now,
you lose your balance a little and begin to fall over backwards. Your
feet tilt backwards, the device senses this, and moves backwards.
You're now still over the device

Yes, but it can't move under the center of gravity while your feet are
still on it.

You've forgotten Newton 3: "for every action, there is an equal and
opposite reaction".

Nope.

It moves the wheels by the motor exerting a torque on them. This causes
an equal and opposite torque on the scooter-and-human,

Yes.

thus moving the person's C of G relative to the axle

Nope, because the tilt of the human doesn't change much.

Doesn't it? I've never really watched one in operation that closely.

until the C of G is once again directly over the axle.

Fraid not.

This is how it corrects for the person leaning too far forwards or
backwards.

No, it applies force, it doesn't shift the CoG.

If the person leans back, the sensors detect that the scooter is tipping
backwards, and rotates the wheels backwards, thus tipping the person
forwards.

By force, not by moving the CoG

You may well be right: by exerting a forward-twisting force it may
counteract the tendency of the person (whose C of G is still behind the
axle) to twist the platform backwards. I suppose the fact that it does this
allows the person then to move to adjust their own C of G once the platform
is stable again.
 
On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:09:42 -0000, NY, the brain damaged, notorious,
troll-feeding senile idiot, babbled again:

<FLUSH those two idiots' endless sick shit unread again>
 
"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.zv490lwywdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...

I knew steering played a big part (I thought about 50%) because I've seen
a trick played where people are given bicycles with fixed steering, and
it's very difficult to balance on them.

Also there have been tests where a perfectly balanced human-size/weight
dummy is attached to a bike, and it falls over even when it is travelling at
a speed that a human could ride easily. That suggests that minute
adjustments to balance and steering are a major factor in staying upright.


I'm sure the wheels play a big part too - if you remove a bicycle wheel
and keep the hub, then spin it holding the wheelnuts, it's difficult to
turn over. Mind you, maybe that's not enough to prevent the weight of the
rider falling over too.

That's the gyroscopic effect. If the wheel is rotating and you twist the
axle side-to-side (in a horizontal plane), there is a force that tries to
twist the axle up-and-down (in a vertical plane). It acts so as to correct a
tendency to fall over: if you start to lean to the left and the front axle
turns to the left, the gyroscopic force acts to try to move the bike back to
vertical, and its magnitude varies with speed.

I can see why people though that this was the only force that mattered,
since it does play a small part in keeping balance - it's just that it's not
enough on it own.

I read of an experiment where a bike was fitted with wheels that had discs
of equal mass to the wheel that were rotated (electrically) in the opposite
direction so as to cancel out any gyroscopic force. And the bike was still
rideable, though it was slightly harder to keep one's balance.
 
On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:34:50 -0000, NY, the brain damaged, notorious,
troll-feeding senile idiot, babbled again:

<FLUSH another huge load of senile shite>

You seniles STINK of your senility! <BG>
 
On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:34:50 -0000, NY, the brain damaged, notorious,
troll-feeding senile idiot, babbled again:


<FLUSH>

direction so as to cancel out any gyroscopic force. And the bike was still
rideable, though it was slightly harder to keep one's balance.

You must be ever so thankful to have found a filthy retarded troll, wanker
and attention whore like Peter Hucker whom you can keep feeding, senile
idiot! LOL
 
On 25/01/2019 09:09, NY wrote:
"Steven" <shy543@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:gav2ojFcs0sU1@mid.individual.net...
"NY" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:Odqdnc3cerV429fBnZ2dnUU78UXNnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...
Let's say you're stood stationary and upright on it, not moving.
Now, you lose your balance a little and begin to fall over
backwards.  Your feet tilt backwards, the device senses this, and
moves backwards. You're now still over the device

Yes, but it can't move under the center of gravity while your feet
are still on it.

You've forgotten Newton 3: "for every action, there is an equal and
opposite reaction".

Nope.

It moves the wheels by the motor exerting a torque on them. This
causes an equal and opposite torque on the scooter-and-human,

Yes.

thus moving the person's C of G relative to the axle

Nope, because the tilt of the human doesn't change much.

Doesn't it? I've never really watched one in operation that closely.

until the C of G is once again directly over the axle.

Fraid not.

This is how it corrects for the person leaning too far forwards or
backwards.

No, it applies force, it doesn't shift the CoG.

If the person leans back, the sensors detect that the scooter is
tipping backwards, and rotates the wheels backwards, thus tipping the
person forwards.

By force, not by moving the CoG

You may well be right: by exerting a forward-twisting force it may
counteract the tendency of the person (whose C of G is still behind the
axle) to twist the platform backwards. I suppose the fact that it does
this allows the person then to move to adjust their own C of G once the
platform is stable again.

It simply moves the platform and the rider's feet back to below the CoG.
Hence rebalancing.

SteveW
 
On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:34:50 -0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.zv490lwywdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...

I knew steering played a big part (I thought about 50%) because I've seen
a trick played where people are given bicycles with fixed steering, and
it's very difficult to balance on them.

Also there have been tests where a perfectly balanced human-size/weight
dummy is attached to a bike, and it falls over even when it is travelling at
a speed that a human could ride easily. That suggests that minute
adjustments to balance and steering are a major factor in staying upright.

I'm sure the wheels play a big part too - if you remove a bicycle wheel
and keep the hub, then spin it holding the wheelnuts, it's difficult to
turn over. Mind you, maybe that's not enough to prevent the weight of the
rider falling over too.

That's the gyroscopic effect. If the wheel is rotating and you twist the
axle side-to-side (in a horizontal plane), there is a force that tries to
twist the axle up-and-down (in a vertical plane). It acts so as to correct a
tendency to fall over: if you start to lean to the left and the front axle
turns to the left, the gyroscopic force acts to try to move the bike back to
vertical, and its magnitude varies with speed.

I can see why people though that this was the only force that mattered,
since it does play a small part in keeping balance - it's just that it's not
enough on it own.

I would have said a large part. Just try balancing on a bicycle that's stationary.

I read of an experiment where a bike was fitted with wheels that had discs
of equal mass to the wheel that were rotated (electrically) in the opposite
direction so as to cancel out any gyroscopic force. And the bike was still
rideable, though it was slightly harder to keep one's balance.

I guess it's also harder if you have a very lightweight racing bike with lighter wheels. Mind you, I could never ride a bike with narrow handlebars, I can only ride mountain bikes. Not enough leverage to balance by steering in those drop handlebar types.
 
On Fri, 25 Jan 2019 09:34:50 -0000, NY <me@privacy.net> wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" <CFKinsey@military.org.jp> wrote in message
news:eek:p.zv490lwywdg98l@desktop-ga2mpl8.lan...

I knew steering played a big part (I thought about 50%) because I've seen
a trick played where people are given bicycles with fixed steering, and
it's very difficult to balance on them.

Also there have been tests where a perfectly balanced human-size/weight
dummy is attached to a bike, and it falls over even when it is travelling at
a speed that a human could ride easily. That suggests that minute
adjustments to balance and steering are a major factor in staying upright.


I'm sure the wheels play a big part too - if you remove a bicycle wheel
and keep the hub, then spin it holding the wheelnuts, it's difficult to
turn over. Mind you, maybe that's not enough to prevent the weight of the
rider falling over too.

That's the gyroscopic effect. If the wheel is rotating and you twist the
axle side-to-side (in a horizontal plane), there is a force that tries to
twist the axle up-and-down (in a vertical plane). It acts so as to correct a
tendency to fall over: if you start to lean to the left and the front axle
turns to the left, the gyroscopic force acts to try to move the bike back to
vertical, and its magnitude varies with speed.

There's something you can do with a computer chair (as in one that can rotate) and a bicycle wheel. I can't remember what it was, something like your friend gets the wheel spinning and hands it to you, then you turn it to the horizontal, making the chair spin round.

I can see why people though that this was the only force that mattered,
since it does play a small part in keeping balance - it's just that it's not
enough on it own.

I read of an experiment where a bike was fitted with wheels that had discs
of equal mass to the wheel that were rotated (electrically) in the opposite
direction so as to cancel out any gyroscopic force. And the bike was still
rideable, though it was slightly harder to keep one's balance.
 

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