GSM/GPRS connection from a balloon

[Albert Goodwill]

Hello Everybody,

Expert advise required on GSM/GPRS connection;

I want to send/receive data to/from a balloon carrying some sensor.
Initially balloon will be tight to a rope and will rise gradually in
human control.
It will send altitude, temperature, humidity, windspeed, GPS data via
GSM/GPRS module to a control computer and to a mobile phone on the
ground. It will also receive some remote control commands through the
same communication channel.

- How high the balloon can rise before GSM/GPRS signal vanishes?
- Is there a legal altitude limit for GSM/GPRS operation?
- Which GSM/GPRS modules you would recommend for the balloon and
for the computer (please consider price and locality as Australia)?
- Do you know any similar project or any open project which can
help me to learn more on GSM/GPRS data communication?


Thank you

Albert

 

[criten]

Please note this may not be accurate, going off memory.

Albert Goodwill wrote:

- How high the balloon can rise before GSM/GPRS signal vanishes?

I believe GSM has a 15km range, which would put anything over 50,000ft
out of range. However, I do recall reading a study conducted outside the
USA (due to FAA regulation) shortly after the 9/11 attacks to determine
the success rate of placing mobile calls on commercial flights - I
recall they found at altitude (although I can't remember exact figures
or have a link for you) the success rate was extremely low (less than
10%) over a sample data of several thousand calls - which apparently was
used to feed conspiracy theorists rubbish about that plane that crashed
in the middle of nowhere, and its passengers apparently called their
relatives from their cell phones, so who knows if said study was truely
accurate.

NextG apparently has 4x the range of GSM (or so goes the sales pitch),
but alot of the blokes on aus.comms.mobile don't like it.

Who knows, that information may be helpful. At least its some research
pointers for you.

- Is there a legal altitude limit for GSM/GPRS operation?
No idea about AU law, I do recall Mythbusters tackling the issue of cell

phones on planes who pointed out that in the USA its illegal under FAA
regulation on any passenger aircraft. Mostly because the equipment, such
as navigations & communications need to be tested to ensure they are
sufficiently shielded from interferance. I really don't think there
would be legal restrictions on a balloon, but a high altitude you will
need flight clearance.

- Do you know any similar project or any open project which can
help me to learn more on GSM/GPRS data communication?
Nup, but you may be interested in packet radio as an alternative - with

a radio license its free on amatuer bands and can provide several
thousand kilometer ranges. Although the bandwidth is typically
compariable to dialup modem, but that should be plenty sufficient for
the data you stated. I suggest you see some aus.radio groups for info
about that

Regards,
criten

 

[Dorfus Dippintush]

criten wrote:

Please note this may not be accurate, going off memory.

Albert Goodwill wrote:
- How high the balloon can rise before GSM/GPRS signal vanishes?

I believe GSM has a 15km range, which would put anything over 50,000ft
out of range. However, I do recall reading a study conducted outside the
USA (due to FAA regulation) shortly after the 9/11 attacks to determine
the success rate of placing mobile calls on commercial flights - I
recall they found at altitude (although I can't remember exact figures
or have a link for you) the success rate was extremely low (less than
10%) over a sample data of several thousand calls - which apparently was
used to feed conspiracy theorists rubbish about that plane that crashed
in the middle of nowhere, and its passengers apparently called their
relatives from their cell phones, so who knows if said study was truely
accurate.

NextG apparently has 4x the range of GSM (or so goes the sales pitch),
but alot of the blokes on aus.comms.mobile don't like it.

Who knows, that information may be helpful. At least its some research
pointers for you.

- Is there a legal altitude limit for GSM/GPRS operation?
No idea about AU law, I do recall Mythbusters tackling the issue of cell
phones on planes who pointed out that in the USA its illegal under FAA
regulation on any passenger aircraft. Mostly because the equipment, such
as navigations & communications need to be tested to ensure they are
sufficiently shielded from interferance. I really don't think there
would be legal restrictions on a balloon, but a high altitude you will
need flight clearance.

- Do you know any similar project or any open project which can
help me to learn more on GSM/GPRS data communication?
Nup, but you may be interested in packet radio as an alternative - with
a radio license its free on amatuer bands and can provide several
thousand kilometer ranges. Although the bandwidth is typically
compariable to dialup modem, but that should be plenty sufficient for
the data you stated. I suggest you see some aus.radio groups for info
about that

Regards,
criten

That's a good suggestion regarding packet radio. Careful what you say on
the aus.radio newsgroup, there's a big bunfight going on there at the
moment.

Dorfus

 

[Phil Allison]

"Dorfus Dippintush"

That's a good suggestion regarding packet radio. Careful what you say on
the aus.radio newsgroup, there's a big bunfight going on there at the
moment.

** Huh ???????

What aus.radio NG is that then ?

" aus.radio.amateur.digital " is a classic example of the lights are on but
nobody is home.



....... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Albert Goodwill"

Expert advise required on GSM/GPRS connection;

I want to send/receive data to/from a balloon carrying some sensor.
Initially balloon will be tight to a rope and will rise gradually in
human control.
It will send altitude, temperature, humidity, windspeed, GPS data via
GSM/GPRS module to a control computer and to a mobile phone on the
ground. It will also receive some remote control commands through the
same communication channel.

** You are going to run foul of the laws of Australia.

Tethered balloons must NOT be flown to a height of more than 300 feet (
100m ) above the ground without a special permit from the Civil Aviation
Safety Authority ( CASA) - plus you must be at least 4km away from ANY
airport.

Also, the balloon must remain 500 feet below cloud at all times and be flown
only when there is perfect visibility.

So you CANNOT release the balloon.

Forget it - it's a totally mad idea.





......... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Chris Jones"

If it's in a populated area then the mobile network operators might get
upset, and it is probably also illegal.

They may get upset because normally your line-of-sight (strong) signal
gets
obstructed by hills and the curvature of the earth, and so the operator
can
re-use the same frequency for many base stations that are not adjacent
cells to each other. This works as long as a mobile phone is not in the
coverage area of two base stations that use the same frequency at the same
time. Reusing frequencies means that they to bill several customers
simultaneously using frequency spectrum that they only paid for once.

If you transmit from a high altitude, you may have line of sight to
several
base stations that all receive on the frequency that you're transmitting,
and your signal would interfere with the signals from other handsets on
that frequency even though those handsets are a long way away from your
location. That means that using this particular frequency, the operator
can only bill one customer at a time (you) and they are not making a good
return on purchasing that frequency.

** ROTFLMAO !!!!!!

Almost as misconceived and funny as "bassett" explaining how DTV works.




.......... Phil

 

[Chris Jones]

Albert Goodwill wrote:

Hello Everybody,

Expert advise required on GSM/GPRS connection;

I want to send/receive data to/from a balloon carrying some sensor.
Initially balloon will be tight to a rope and will rise gradually in
human control.
It will send altitude, temperature, humidity, windspeed, GPS data via
GSM/GPRS module to a control computer and to a mobile phone on the
ground. It will also receive some remote control commands through the
same communication channel.

- How high the balloon can rise before GSM/GPRS signal vanishes?
- Is there a legal altitude limit for GSM/GPRS operation?
- Which GSM/GPRS modules you would recommend for the balloon and
for the computer (please consider price and locality as Australia)?
- Do you know any similar project or any open project which can
help me to learn more on GSM/GPRS data communication?


Thank you

Albert

If it's in a populated area then the mobile network operators might get
upset, and it is probably also illegal.

They may get upset because normally your line-of-sight (strong) signal gets
obstructed by hills and the curvature of the earth, and so the operator can
re-use the same frequency for many base stations that are not adjacent
cells to each other. This works as long as a mobile phone is not in the
coverage area of two base stations that use the same frequency at the same
time. Reusing frequencies means that they to bill several customers
simultaneously using frequency spectrum that they only paid for once.

If you transmit from a high altitude, you may have line of sight to several
base stations that all receive on the frequency that you're transmitting,
and your signal would interfere with the signals from other handsets on
that frequency even though those handsets are a long way away from your
location. That means that using this particular frequency, the operator
can only bill one customer at a time (you) and they are not making a good
return on purchasing that frequency.

Chris

 

[David]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Chris Jones"
If it's in a populated area then the mobile network operators might get
upset, and it is probably also illegal.

They may get upset because normally your line-of-sight (strong) signal
gets
obstructed by hills and the curvature of the earth, and so the operator
can
re-use the same frequency for many base stations that are not adjacent
cells to each other. This works as long as a mobile phone is not in the
coverage area of two base stations that use the same frequency at the same
time. Reusing frequencies means that they to bill several customers
simultaneously using frequency spectrum that they only paid for once.

If you transmit from a high altitude, you may have line of sight to
several
base stations that all receive on the frequency that you're transmitting,
and your signal would interfere with the signals from other handsets on
that frequency even though those handsets are a long way away from your
location. That means that using this particular frequency, the operator
can only bill one customer at a time (you) and they are not making a good
return on purchasing that frequency.



** ROTFLMAO !!!!!!

Almost as misconceived and funny as "bassett" explaining how DTV works.




......... Phil

Chris is actually correct. The original reason the FCC banned cellular
phones in any aircraft or balloon, was to prevent harmful interference
to terrestrial cellular systems. The original ban did not consider the
potential impact on aircraft navigation or communication systems.

When in the air, the distance to the cell tower causes the cell phone to
operate at maximum power, and this cause co-channel interference. The
current push is to have a pico cell installed in an aircraft, and this
will allow the phone to operate at minimum power levels, and prevent
interference to the ground based networks.

If cellular phones where that dangerous to the operation of aircraft, do
you really think that we would even be allowed to take them onboard?
Plenty of people "forget" to turn them off.

David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David" <

Phil Allison wrote:


** ROTFLMAO !!!!!!

Almost as misconceived and funny as "bassett" explaining how DTV works.



Chris is actually correct.

** Bullshit he is.

The original reason the FCC banned cellular phones in any aircraft or
balloon, was to prevent harmful interference to terrestrial cellular
systems. The original ban did not consider the potential impact on aircraft
navigation or communication systems.

When in the air, the distance to the cell tower causes the cell phone to
operate at maximum power, and this cause co-channel interference.

** Complete bollocks.

Mobiles operate at max power all over the place, all the time.

The current push is to have a pico cell installed in an aircraft, and this
will allow the phone to operate at minimum power levels, and prevent
interference to the ground based networks.

** Purest crapology.

Ever heard of the inverse square law ??

Obviously not - it is not taught in IT courses.






.......... Phil

 

[David]

Phil Allison wrote:

"David"
Phil Allison wrote:

** ROTFLMAO !!!!!!

Almost as misconceived and funny as "bassett" explaining how DTV works.


Chris is actually correct.


** Bullshit he is.


The original reason the FCC banned cellular phones in any aircraft or
balloon, was to prevent harmful interference to terrestrial cellular
systems. The original ban did not consider the potential impact on aircraft
navigation or communication systems.

When in the air, the distance to the cell tower causes the cell phone to
operate at maximum power, and this cause co-channel interference.


** Complete bollocks.

Mobiles operate at max power all over the place, all the time.

No, cellular phones adjust their output power to suit the current cell.
For small cells, the phones and the cell will operate at very low power
levels. This allows many phones to operate in a small area at the same
time while only using a limited number of channels.

The current push is to have a pico cell installed in an aircraft, and this
will allow the phone to operate at minimum power levels, and prevent
interference to the ground based networks.


** Purest crapology.

Ever heard of the inverse square law ??

Obviously not - it is not taught in IT courses.

The inverse square law is the *exact* problem with cellular phones on
aircraft. When in the air, the distance from the cellular phone to the
cell towers on the ground is fairly equidistant, over a large footprint
on the ground. All the towers will receive the phone's signal at a
similar strength. This will cause interference with existing calls over
a large area on that channel. This is why the FCC and ACMA prohibit the
operation of cellular phones in an airborne aircraft.


When the cellular phone is on the ground, the tower closest will
typically take control, the phone will adjust its power level down, and
towers further away will have a much weaker signal (due to the inverse
square law).


Obviously they never taught about cellular phones at toaster repair school.

David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David"

When in the air, the distance to the cell tower causes the cell phone to
operate at maximum power, and this cause co-channel interference.

** Complete bollocks.

Mobiles operate at max power all over the place, all the time.


No,

** Yes, mobiles operate at max power all over the place, all the time.

You are an illiterate imbecile !!!!!

Can't even pinch lines from Wiki without fucking them all up.

The current push is to have a pico cell installed in an aircraft, and
this will allow the phone to operate at minimum power levels, and
prevent interference to the ground based networks.


** Purest crapology.

Ever heard of the inverse square law ??

Obviously not - it is not taught in IT courses.


The inverse square law is the *exact* problem with cellular phones on
aircraft.

** You are an utter IMBECILE.

The inverse square law means the signal from an aircraft will be weak for
any receiver on the ground - plus that tubular alloy fuselage the phones
are inside of makes a dandy RF shield.

BTW:

The 1991 US FCC ban on airborne use of cell phones was for a ANALOGUE (
ie FM ) phones network - not a digital GSM one.

BIG differences exist in how they work.

When the cellular phone is on the ground, the tower closest will typically
take control,

** Irrelevant to how GSM actually works.

It is easy to be in a spot on the ground or up in a tall building that has
similar reception strength on 3 or 4 towers.

As you drive or move about, the tower receiving the best signal takes
ver - and that situation may change many times in ONE second. The GSM
system copes just fine.

The US FCC ban on airborne use of cell phones is highly controversial,
based on hunches rather than proper evidence and does NOT apply to
privately owned aircraft ( inc business jets and chartered planes) where
folk on board use their cell phones just as they like.


YOU are a know nothing ASS - David.

Fuck off back your PIC programming.





....... Phil

 

[David]

Phil Allison wrote:

"David"

When in the air, the distance to the cell tower causes the cell
phone to operate at maximum power, and this cause co-channel
interference.
** Complete bollocks.

Mobiles operate at max power all over the place, all the time.

No,

** Yes, mobiles operate at max power all over the place, all the
time.

You are an illiterate imbecile !!!!!

Can't even pinch lines from Wiki without fucking them all up.



The current push is to have a pico cell installed in an
aircraft, and this will allow the phone to operate at minimum
power levels, and prevent interference to the ground based
networks.

** Purest crapology.

Ever heard of the inverse square law ??

Obviously not - it is not taught in IT courses.

The inverse square law is the *exact* problem with cellular phones
on aircraft.


** You are an utter IMBECILE.

The inverse square law means the signal from an aircraft will be weak
for any receiver on the ground - plus that tubular alloy fuselage
the phones are inside of makes a dandy RF shield.

BTW:

The 1991 US FCC ban on airborne use of cell phones was for a
ANALOGUE ( ie FM ) phones network - not a digital GSM one.

BIG differences exist in how they work.



When the cellular phone is on the ground, the tower closest will
typically take control,


** Irrelevant to how GSM actually works.

It is easy to be in a spot on the ground or up in a tall building
that has similar reception strength on 3 or 4 towers.

As you drive or move about, the tower receiving the best signal takes
ver - and that situation may change many times in ONE second. The
GSM system copes just fine.

The US FCC ban on airborne use of cell phones is highly
controversial, based on hunches rather than proper evidence and does
NOT apply to privately owned aircraft ( inc business jets and
chartered planes) where folk on board use their cell phones just as
they like.

It applies to ALL aircraft, including privately owned aircraft once they
are airborne. To quote from the FCC:

Title 47: Telecommunication PART 22—PUBLIC MOBILE SERVICES Subpart
H—Cellular Radiotelephone Service


Browse Previous | Browse Next


§ 22.925 Prohibition on airborne operation of cellular telephones.
Cellular telephones installed in or carried aboard airplanes,
balloons or any other type of aircraft must not be operated while
such aircraft are airborne (not touching the ground). When any
aircraft leaves the ground, all cellular telephones on board that
aircraft must be turned off. The following notice must be posted on
or near each cellular telephone installed in any aircraft:

“The use of cellular telephones while this aircraft is airborne is
prohibited by FCC rules, and the violation of this rule could result
in suspension of service and/or a fine. The use of cellular
telephones while this aircraft is on the ground is subject to FAA
regulations.”

Similar legislation for the class license of cellular phones in Australia


David

 

[kreed]

On Aug 14, 1:13 pm, "Phil Allison" <philalli...@tpg.com.au> wrote:

"David"

Phil Allison wrote:

** ROTFLMAO !!!!!!

Almost as misconceived and funny as "bassett" explaining how DTV works.

Chris is actually correct.

** Bullshit he is.

The original reason the FCC banned cellular phones in any aircraft or
balloon, was to prevent harmful interference to terrestrial cellular
systems. The original ban did not consider the potential impact on aircraft
navigation or communication systems.

When in the air, the distance to the cell tower causes the cell phone to
operate at maximum power, and this cause co-channel interference.

** Complete bollocks.

Mobiles operate at max power all over the place, all the time.

I dont know about GSM, but with CDMA, when it operates in a city area
(mostly full or near full signal all the time) the battery will last
for about 4 days. When in country areas with low or no reception, the
battery will go flat in a day or less.

I always assumed that the phone raised its transmission power to
maintain the connection in poor signal conditions, thus draining the
battery faster ?

The current push is to have a pico cell installed in an aircraft, and this
will allow the phone to operate at minimum power levels, and prevent
interference to the ground based networks.

** Purest crapology.

Ever heard of the inverse square law ??

Obviously not - it is not taught in IT courses.

......... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"David" <


** Go find out what really happens in the USA

Folk onboard private aircraft do just what I posted.

YOU TROLLING FUCKWIT !!





......... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"kreed"

I always assumed that the phone raised its transmission power to
maintain the connection in poor signal conditions, thus draining the
battery faster ?

** Try learning to read.

Realise what I did NOT write.




......... Phil

 

[David]

Phil Allison wrote:

"David"


** Go find out what really happens in the USA

Folk onboard private aircraft do just what I posted.

YOU TROLLING FUCKWIT !!

I never denied that they did. Doesn't mean that it is legal however.


David

 

[David]

Phil Allison wrote:

"kreed"

I always assumed that the phone raised its transmission power to
maintain the connection in poor signal conditions, thus draining the
battery faster ?



** Try learning to read.

Realise what I did NOT write.

This is what you wrote:

Mobiles operate at max power all over the place, all the time.

It is as you would say "complete bollocks", as mobiles do *not* operate
at max power all the time. They change their output power as needed to
maintain the required signal the tower the mobile has connected to.

David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David the Shit Head TROLL "

Phil Allison wrote:

This is what you wrote:

Mobiles operate at max power all over the place, all the time.

** Try learning to read sometime.

Cos your reading comprehension is that of a genetically autistic fuckwit.

Which it is 100% certain you ARE.





........ Phil

 

[David]

Phil Allison wrote:

"David the Shit Head TROLL "
Phil Allison wrote:

This is what you wrote:

Mobiles operate at max power all over the place, all the time.


** Try learning to read sometime.

** Try learning to write sometime. "All the time" implies continuously,
and clearly mobile phones don't operate at maximum power continuously.

My point is clearly proved, when all I get abuse as a reply from you.

David

 

[Phil Allison]

" David the Shit Head TROLL "



** Try learning to read sometime ARSEHOLE !!

Cos your reading comprehension is that of a genetically autistic fuckwit.

Which it is 100% certain you ARE.





........ Phil