Frequency standard

[Suzy]

"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:62ek9sF22rqbgU1@mid.individual.net...

" Suzy "
"Phil Allison"


Agreed Phil. And for all those interested, see this site for the UK
grid.

http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm#


** That web sites created by complete amateurs - greenie loopy ones
too.

The supply frequency is not so simply related to demand as they
naively claim.

IOW - it's bollocks.



But isn't it true, Phil, that more demand than supply will drag down
alternator shaft speed and thus frequency, and vice-versa?

** I will not answer dumb questions or engage in pointless chat.

What a pompous answer!


** Well, fuck you - bitch face.


It is true and is not "dumb" as you assert


** It ain't true of the Australian AC supply system and its is as dumb as
dog shit to introduce such naive fallacies.


The folk behind that site have NO credibility and have given NO proof of
their claims.

** ( snip more of Suzy's asinine abuse)


The idea put forward that individual appliances ought to dance to the
tune of tiny variations in the AC frequency is

UTTERLY LUNATIC !!!

Sound quite plausible to me. Wouldn't bother with a toaster though...

A typical f***** greenie idea.

Back to normal


** Yawn - more dumb bitch abuse.


Like banning incandescent bulbs and transformer plug packs.

I agree with you about that, but no doubt to you (o mighty one) it is
"pointless chat".


** FUCK OFF back to the moronic, narcissistic on line chat rooms you
normally infest !!

Where asinine, anonymous public masturbators put THEMSELVES at the
CENTRE of every topic.

Just like dumb TROLLS all do.



....... Phil



For once, I'll leave his vile foul mouth unedited. You have a problem

dealing with women, Phil, clearly. But, judging by previous posts you have a
problem dealing with men too! It's so easy for you to lose it, and I wasn't
even trying! My original post was in good faith, and I am interested in the
background theory and finding a solution, and as always prepared to learn.
Apparently, that can't be from you, because perhaps you have nothing
intelligent to provide. A knowledgeable protagonist demolishes the other
side's foolish argument (as mine well could be) with clear logical
offerings. The sexual connotations give a clue as to what your disorder is.
I believe there *is* a brain there, but maybe it is cloaked in a serious
inferiority complex...

There have been distinctively helpful occasions recently. but they quickly
(as now) degenerate into verbal flailing bout. Please have another go at
showing me why I was wrong in my suppositions. I'd be glad to admit it. And,
please tell all of us: what are your qualifications and experience to back
up your quick judgement of others? Come on, deep breath (no jokes about
thixteen...) and have a go. Respond to this ignoramus without bad language,
without diminishing, and achieve something. You could have a chance to add
to the body of human knowledge. I'm sure you can do it, Phil. Please have a
go. Why is it not the case than an imbalance of supply/load will lead to
variations in mains frequency. And by the way, even igoramuses (ignorami?)
are sometimes reasonably literate; that does not prove they are trolls. To
label anyone who dares to question you as a troll is a facile thing, quickly
seen through.

 

[Suzy]

"Elmo" <elmo@sesame.com> wrote in message
news:47c20527_9@news.peopletelecom.com.au...

Phil Allison wrote:
"Suzy"
"Phil Allison"
"Alan Peake"
Depends on how accurately you want to measure the mains frequency.
Last time I did this (in SA), the mains drifted by +/- 1.5 Hz with a
period of about 20 minutes.

** Huh ???

That is way more than it actually varies.

You method must have been flawed.


Agreed Phil. And for all those interested, see this site for the UK
grid.
http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm#


** That web sites created by complete amateurs - greenie loopy ones
too.

The supply frequency is not so simply related to demand as they naively
claim.

IOW - it's bollocks.


....... Phil



I'm afraid Phil is right. As the load increase beyond what can be supplied
by the machines already online, another unit is brought onto the grid.
Normally some units produce less than their full capacity to give what is
called "spinning reserve". The spinning reserve on the grid is normally at
least equal to the largest unit on the grid so that if a machine trips off
there is enough reserve capacity on the grid to cover it. When demand
exceeds the total capacity of the grid you get "brown outs". This is done
by a system controller switching off an area for a while to reduce grid
load. It's simply a matter of operating a switch which causes a huge
circuit breaker to open and cuts of power to a suburb or small town.
Brown-outs are rotated to different areas so as to reduce inconvenience to
customers, but power utitiltys usually have pre-arranged contracts in
place to cut off non-essential loads first.
When a unit does trip off accidently, the grid frequency may drop a few
hertz for a few seconds until the spinning reserve picks up the load, but
you wouldn't be able to forecast a problem in advance, you would only know
of the event afterwards when the frequency has dipped.
In general, bigger grids are more stable.

Elmo

Thanks Elmo. Makes perfect sense, and I was aware of the above. But can we
take this a stage further? Wouldn't monitoring frequency changes give some
idea of when the above routine is failing, and therefore to forecast rolling
blackouts (though not where they are of course)

 

[Suzy]

"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:62f072F22lkbmU1@mid.individual.net...

"RMD"

I remember trying to measure variations in mains frequency 30 odd
years ago.

All I can say is you will need a very accurate measuring kit.


** Can be done very easily - if you have a stable sine generator with
fine tune and a basic CRO and frequency counter.

Just set up a lissajous pattern, with a ratio of 20 to 1, on the CRO
creen - then tweak the audio gen frequency to get the pattern
stationary. Read the generator frequency off the counter.

When it is 1000 Hz, the AC supply is 50 Hz.

When it is 1005Hz, the AC supply is 50.25 Hz.

I really doubt that total load affects frequency in any meaningful way
as you apparently believe from your website.


** Ditto.

Bout as useful as reading tea leaves.

However, an AC voltmeter will tell you if the load in your local area is
unusually heavy or light at some given time.




...... Phil



Good Lord! Unadulterated sense! How erratic (down, Phil, I did not say

erotic). Yes, I can see that measuring voltage on a continuous basis might
be a help, but only as far as the variations go, as we are all at the end of
a finite line and must suffer not only from that but the seemingly random
supply system settings at the nearest sub or zone... Why, though is the UK
meter site irrelevant? Is that not showing one of the symptoms of overall
system imbalance? For example, how do you explain the meter showing a drop
at heavy load times (eg TV advert breaks)? I am really interested in this,
and was all agog waiting for the answer to put me straight in place of which
I got Phil's anti-women rantings... Sigh...

 

[Suzy]

"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:62ek9sF22rqbgU1@mid.individual.net...

" Suzy "
"Phil Allison"


Agreed Phil. And for all those interested, see this site for the UK
grid.

http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm#


** That web sites created by complete amateurs - greenie loopy ones
too.

The supply frequency is not so simply related to demand as they
naively claim.

IOW - it's bollocks.



But isn't it true, Phil, that more demand than supply will drag down
alternator shaft speed and thus frequency, and vice-versa?

** I will not answer dumb questions or engage in pointless chat.

What a pompous answer!


** Well, fuck you - bitch face.


It is true and is not "dumb" as you assert


** It ain't true of the Australian AC supply system and its is as dumb as
dog shit to introduce such naive fallacies.


The folk behind that site have NO credibility and have given NO proof of
their claims.

** ( snip more of Suzy's asinine abuse)


The idea put forward that individual appliances ought to dance to the
tune of tiny variations in the AC frequency is

UTTERLY LUNATIC !!!

Sound quite plausible to me. Wouldn't bother with a toaster though...

A typical f***** greenie idea.

Back to normal


** Yawn - more dumb bitch abuse.


Like banning incandescent bulbs and transformer plug packs.

I agree with you about that, but no doubt to you (o mighty one) it is
"pointless chat".


** FUCK OFF back to the moronic, narcissistic on line chat rooms you
normally infest !!

Where asinine, anonymous public masturbators put THEMSELVES at the
CENTRE of every topic.

Just like dumb TROLLS all do.



....... Phil

And by the way, I have never been to a chat room. Perhaps you googled Suzy

(as I have)? Well, the one that fills all the response pages is not me! A
bit simplistic to assume that there's only one Suzy on the internet! As
intelligent as (please pardon me any real Smith!) saying "Ah, you're Smith
are you. I know all about you!"

 

[Clifford Heath]

Suzy wrote:

For once, I'll leave his vile foul mouth unedited. You have a problem

Suzy, just drop it. Once Phil decides a conversation isn't worth
pursuing he never returns to reason. Next time a technical question
is posed by someone who doesn't set him off, he'll be quite helpful
again - he does know a lot of useful stuff and it's best just to
drop any subject that gets to this stage. Oh, and BTW, it isn't
just women... or even especially women, it can be anyone equally.
So don't take it personally, we've all been where you are.

 

[Phil Allison]

" Suzy"


** FUCK OFF back to the moronic, narcissistic on line chat rooms you
normally infest !!

Where asinine, anonymous public masturbators put THEMSELVES at the
CENTRE of every topic.

Just like dumb TROLLS all do.




........ Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Suzy"


** FUCK OFF back to the moronic, narcissistic on line chat rooms you
normally infest !!

Where asinine, anonymous public masturbators put THEMSELVES at the
CENTRE of every topic.

Just like dumb TROLLS all do.



........ Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Suzy" <not@valid>


** FUCK OFF back to the moronic, narcissistic on line chat rooms you
normally infest !!

Where asinine, anonymous public masturbators put THEMSELVES at the
CENTRE of every topic.

Just like dumb TROLLS all do.




........ Phil

 

[Clifford Heath]

Suzy wrote:

Thanks Elmo. Makes perfect sense, and I was aware of the above. But can we
take this a stage further? Wouldn't monitoring frequency changes give some
idea of when the above routine is failing, and therefore to forecast rolling
blackouts (though not where they are of course)

What Elmo is saying is...

There is a very complicated and potentially variable (may involve
human input) transfer function between the load change and the
frequency change.

You want to try to second-guess that, go ahead... you could use that
ability to predict the future to make a killing on the stock market.

Clifford Heath.

 

[Elmo]

Suzy wrote:

"Elmo" <elmo@sesame.com> wrote in message
news:47c20527_9@news.peopletelecom.com.au...
Phil Allison wrote:
"Suzy"
"Phil Allison"
"Alan Peake"
Depends on how accurately you want to measure the mains frequency.
Last time I did this (in SA), the mains drifted by +/- 1.5 Hz with a
period of about 20 minutes.
** Huh ???

That is way more than it actually varies.

You method must have been flawed.


Agreed Phil. And for all those interested, see this site for the UK
grid.
http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm#

** That web sites created by complete amateurs - greenie loopy ones
too.

The supply frequency is not so simply related to demand as they naively
claim.

IOW - it's bollocks.


....... Phil


I'm afraid Phil is right. As the load increase beyond what can be supplied
by the machines already online, another unit is brought onto the grid.
Normally some units produce less than their full capacity to give what is
called "spinning reserve". The spinning reserve on the grid is normally at
least equal to the largest unit on the grid so that if a machine trips off
there is enough reserve capacity on the grid to cover it. When demand
exceeds the total capacity of the grid you get "brown outs". This is done
by a system controller switching off an area for a while to reduce grid
load. It's simply a matter of operating a switch which causes a huge
circuit breaker to open and cuts of power to a suburb or small town.
Brown-outs are rotated to different areas so as to reduce inconvenience to
customers, but power utitiltys usually have pre-arranged contracts in
place to cut off non-essential loads first.
When a unit does trip off accidently, the grid frequency may drop a few
hertz for a few seconds until the spinning reserve picks up the load, but
you wouldn't be able to forecast a problem in advance, you would only know
of the event afterwards when the frequency has dipped.
In general, bigger grids are more stable.

Elmo

Thanks Elmo. Makes perfect sense, and I was aware of the above. But can we
take this a stage further? Wouldn't monitoring frequency changes give some
idea of when the above routine is failing, and therefore to forecast rolling
blackouts (though not where they are of course)

Not really, even with the power station there can be load changes for
operational reasons, for example changing the coal mills from one to
another or starting up a feed-water pump. These operations will cause
small changes in generator output.
Living in a suburb with a hospital will reduce blackouts, living in a
suburb that has high air conditioner usage on hot days is asking for
trouble.

Elmo

 

[Phil Allison]

"Clifford Heath"

What Elmo is saying is...

There is a very complicated and potentially variable (may involve
human input) transfer function between the load change and the
frequency change.

You want to try to second-guess that, go ahead... you could use that
ability to predict the future to make a killing on the stock market.

** LOL - comparison with the often chaotic stock market is very apt here.

Both do go up and down, there seems to be some pattern to it all, but it has
long proved to be beyond rational prediction.

Appears to be characteristic of all complex, interacting, human driven
systems.

Same goes for land values etc.



........ Phil

 

[David L. Jones]

On Feb 25, 3:42 pm, ebff_q...@lnubb.pbz (RMD) wrote:

On Sun, 24 Feb 2008 15:39:36 +1100, "Suzy" <not@valid> wrote:
I am needing to generate about 1v p-to-p at 50Hz sine wave as accurately as
I can. Please don't suggest syncing to mains as that's the application -- to
calibrate an instrument to measure the actual variance of the mains from
time to time from 50 Hz precisely.

My current (ouch) thoughts are to get a 2 MHz crystal and divide down to
50Hz. Any comments on this idea or an alternative?

I remember trying to measure variations in mains frequency 30 odd
years ago.

All I can say is you will need a very accurate measuring kit.

Any cheap frequency meter with reciprocal measurement will be able to
measure it just fine.

Dave.

 

[atec77]

Phil Allison wrote:

public masturbators

that's you philthy

most every-time you post it's a rudeness undeserved...


now remind us how felating a staff member got you thrown out of uni ..

....... Phil

 

[atec77]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Clifford Heath"
What Elmo is saying is...

There is a very complicated and potentially variable (may involve
human input) transfer function between the load change and the
frequency change.

You want to try to second-guess that, go ahead... you could use that
ability to predict the future to make a killing on the stock market.


** LOL - comparison with the often chaotic stock market is very apt here.

Not that you have any personal experience in the area eh philthy ?

Both do go up and down,
just like your head when felating your speshul friend ?

there seems to be some pattern to it all, but it has

long proved to be beyond rational prediction.
rational ?

well you are excluded then eh philthy ?

Appears to be characteristic of all complex, interacting, human driven
systems.
not your area of expertise either old trout ?

Same goes for land values etc.
Well we can be sure you never having been a land owner operate purely

on "hearsay"

....... Phil

 

[David L. Jones]

On Feb 25, 4:18 pm, "Suzy" <not@valid> wrote:

"Elmo" <e...@sesame.com> wrote in message

news:47c217a5$1_5@news.peopletelecom.com.au...



David L. Jones wrote:
On Feb 25, 11:05 am, "Phil Allison" <philalli...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
"Suzy"
"Phil Allison"

Agreed Phil. And for all those interested, see this site for the UK
grid.
http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm#
** That web sites created by complete amateurs - greenie loopy ones
too.
The supply frequency is not so simply related to demand as they
naively
claim.
IOW - it's bollocks.
But isn't it true, Phil, that more demand than supply will drag down
alternator shaft speed and thus frequency, and vice-versa?
** I will not answer dumb questions or engage in pointless chat.

The folk behind that site have NO credibility and have given NO proof of
their claims.

The idea put forward that individual appliances ought to dance to the
tune
of tiny variations in the AC frequency is

UTTERLY LUNATIC !!!

A typical fuckwit greenie idea.

Like banning incandescent bulbs and transformer plug packs.

....... Phil

I agree with Phil on this one, the idea is lunacy.
The web interfaced frequency meter is neat though, although it's not
even calibrated:

"We have not yet callibrated the meter, so the number you can see may
differ slightly from the real grid frequency by a constant small
amount.
The reason why we show so many decimal places in the frequency is to
ensure you can see it change. The changes (the movements of the
needle) should be quite accurate.
There will be a slight delay in the signal because it takes at least
two seconds to send the data over the internet.
Disclaimer: Please don't rely on our grid meter for any industrial or
other applications. We can't guarantee accuracy or reliability!"

Dave.

For Suzys purposes it doesn't have to be calibrated, she's more concerned
with fluctuations and differentials than the actual frequency.

Elmo

Yes, but I'm interested in going one better than the website, and actually
calibrating. That was the reason for my original post about dividing down
from crystal oscillators of eg 2 MHz

How do you plan on "calibrating" your crystal oscillator?
"Calibration" usually = "traceability".

What is the end purpose of all this measurement anyhow?

Dave.

 

[Clifford Heath]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Clifford Heath"
You want to try to second-guess that, go ahead... you could use that
ability to predict the future to make a killing on the stock market.

** LOL - comparison with the often chaotic stock market is very apt here.

Both do go up and down, there seems to be some pattern to it all, but it has
long proved to be beyond rational prediction.

More to the point, it positively responds to any newly-discovered accurate
prediction method by becoming just enough more complex that the method
doesn't work any more, since it's basically a fractal (self-referential)
system. It shares this characteristic with self-awareness. It isn't free
will or anything spiritual that creates intractable complexity, it's just
that self-reference guarantees that the complexity is always *just* out of
reach.

There, from electricity generation to agnosticism in three posts . QED.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Alan Peake"

No, the electricity supply company couldn't maintain 50 Hz acurately in
the short tern due to load variations and machine response times inter
alia. They supposedly guaranteed the correct number of cycles per day
however. This was in SA and wasn't connected to the national grid .....

** Yawn ........

So now the dopey ass finally tells us he was testing a diesel gene.




......... Phil

 

[Suzy]

"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:62f3k5F22ub9qU1@mid.individual.net...

"Suzy" <not@valid


** FUCK OFF back to the moronic, narcissistic on line chat rooms you
normally infest !!

Where asinine, anonymous public masturbators put THEMSELVES at the
CENTRE of every topic.

Just like dumb TROLLS all do.




....... Phil

Amazing stuff! Vintage Phil...

 

[Phil Allison]

"Suzy" <not@valid>


** FUCK OFF back to the moronic, narcissistic on line chat rooms you
normally infest !!

Where asinine, anonymous public masturbators put THEMSELVES at the
CENTRE of every topic.

Just like dumb TROLLS all do.





........ Phil

 

[Suzy]

"Clifford Heath" <no@spam.please.net> wrote in message
news:47c25811$0$4437$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

Suzy wrote:
For once, I'll leave his vile foul mouth unedited. You have a problem

Suzy, just drop it. Once Phil decides a conversation isn't worth
pursuing he never returns to reason. Next time a technical question
is posed by someone who doesn't set him off, he'll be quite helpful
again - he does know a lot of useful stuff and it's best just to
drop any subject that gets to this stage. Oh, and BTW, it isn't
just women... or even especially women, it can be anyone equally.
So don't take it personally, we've all been where you are.

Thanks Cliff. Not problem with me, but can't we do something to help this
poor unhappy bloke? As you say, he can be quite helpful but he has a real
human interface problem. Worse than I've ever seen in a lifetime of working
with disadvantaged people with big chips on their shoulders and plenty of
reasons for having them.

And Phil, if you are still there, I have never been in a chat room. You are
assuming there's only one Suzy on the internet. A bit of a silly assumption
for an intelligent (?) person.