E-Meter?

[Zak]

I read: demago...


Thomas

 

[Robert Baer]

Zak wrote:

I read: demago...


Thomas
How about DemonizoGalvanoMetroniks?

(for the schematics)

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Death to Smoochy wrote:

Does anybody know of a web site that publishes the design parameters of the
Scientologists' e-meter?

Why? Planning on going into business building them yourself?

Not a good idea IMHO. You could end up catching them blame for any
psychic damage that may result from the use of an 'unapproved' meter.
There is no way to demonstrate that the correct operation of your
product will result in a positive outcome of a session in which it is
used.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailtoaul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
I didn't do it. Nobody saw me do it. You can't prove anything.
- Bart Simpson

 

[Boris Mohar]

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 16:38:46 GMT, Death to Smoochy <#@&.$> wrote:

Boris Mohar <borism_-void-_@sympatico.ca> wrote in
news:r8uq31drkc2l656rl6686lnuipmsc2nhbo@4ax.com:

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 05:43:40 GMT, Death to Smoochy <#@&.$> wrote:


Does anybody know of a web site that publishes the design parameters
of the Scientologists' e-meter?

It is same as the one for b-meter.

What does the 'b' stand for?
Bullshit

--

Boris Mohar

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:04:37 -0800, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
<Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote:

Death to Smoochy wrote:

Does anybody know of a web site that publishes the design parameters of the
Scientologists' e-meter?

Why? Planning on going into business building them yourself?

Not a good idea IMHO. You could end up catching them blame for any
psychic damage that may result from the use of an 'unapproved' meter.
There is no way to demonstrate that the correct operation of your
product will result in a positive outcome of a session in which it is
used.

Why not just argue back that their methods are actually wrong and that
your methods actually work to correct and balance the 'life energy' of
a person?

Just as there would be no way to objectively dispute someone else's
arguments that your device is unapproved and may cause psychic damage
(since there is no objective measure), there is also no way for them
to objectively dispute your own claims that it is theirs that presents
the higher risks of causing psychic damage.

I'd imagine that knife cuts both ways.

Of course, I suppose the real difference is that the 'big business' of
Scientology has a lot more money than most.

Jon

 

[Robert Baer]

Paul Hovnanian P.E. wrote:

Death to Smoochy wrote:

Does anybody know of a web site that publishes the design parameters of the
Scientologists' e-meter?


Why? Planning on going into business building them yourself?

Not a good idea IMHO. You could end up catching them blame for any
psychic damage that may result from the use of an 'unapproved' meter.
There is no way to demonstrate that the correct operation of your
product will result in a positive outcome of a session in which it is
used.

On the other hand, it is rather hard to prove a negative...

 

[Robert Baer]

Jonathan Kirwan wrote:

On Wed, 23 Mar 2005 22:04:37 -0800, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote:


Death to Smoochy wrote:

Does anybody know of a web site that publishes the design parameters of the
Scientologists' e-meter?

Why? Planning on going into business building them yourself?

Not a good idea IMHO. You could end up catching them blame for any
psychic damage that may result from the use of an 'unapproved' meter.
There is no way to demonstrate that the correct operation of your
product will result in a positive outcome of a session in which it is
used.


Why not just argue back that their methods are actually wrong and that
your methods actually work to correct and balance the 'life energy' of
a person?

Just as there would be no way to objectively dispute someone else's
arguments that your device is unapproved and may cause psychic damage
(since there is no objective measure), there is also no way for them
to objectively dispute your own claims that it is theirs that presents
the higher risks of causing psychic damage.

I'd imagine that knife cuts both ways.

Of course, I suppose the real difference is that the 'big business' of
Scientology has a lot more money than most.

Jon
Many megabucks of spare change.

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Jonathan Kirwan
<jkirwan@easystreet.com> wrote (in
<uns441dm6c741fnuf1tvql0i806mu8ci5d@4ax.com&gt about 'E-Meter?', on Thu,
24 Mar 2005:

Of course, I suppose the real difference is that the 'big business' of
Scientology has a lot more money than most.

Yes, the objective measure in such cases is the 'megabuck'.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Rich Grise]

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 01:33:01 +0000, Robert Baer wrote:

Zak wrote:

I read: demago...


Thomas
How about DemonizoGalvanoMetroniks?
(for the schematics)

You mean, you've never DEMONstrated a prototype? >:->

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Dave VanHorn]

Why? Planning on going into business building them yourself?

Not a good idea IMHO. You could end up catching them blame for any
psychic damage that may result from the use of an 'unapproved' meter.
There is no way to demonstrate that the correct operation of your
product will result in a positive outcome of a session in which it is
used.

And just wait till you meet their legal staff.

 

[Death to Smoochy]

Nested below your excellent link, I found the following tenchincal details
about the e-meter,

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/E-Meter/Mark-VII/index.html

but I still have one question. Why do you need an 8051 on a VOM meter with
a needle galvanometer? It's all analog!!!

 

[Death to Smoochy]

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in
news:42425875.6D6DAC25@Hovnanian.com:

Why? Planning on going into business building them yourself?

Better. Planning to teach *real* psychologists to use them.

You could end up catching them blame for any
psychic damage that may result from the use of an 'unapproved' meter.

ROTFLMWAO

Psychic damage?! Gimmee a break! This is me laughing at you.

WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
GAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
KAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
GAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
KAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
GAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
KAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
WAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!

Oh, ahh.... Whew!

I always enjoy a good laugh at the expense of the stupid.

 

[Death to Smoochy]

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote in news:4243A087.DE4C67F7
@Hovnanian.com:

Reminds me of an old joke:

Heaven and Hell are actually separated by nothing more than a fence.
After a time, the fence fell into disrepair and God called the devil
over to assess the situation. God said, "Since this fence is on our
property line, we should each pay half of the repair cost."

The devil replied, "Fix it if you want, but I'm not going to contribute
a thing."

God countered, "Oh yeah? I'll see you in court!"

The devil, picking himself up of the ground after a hearty laugh,
replied, "That's very funny. Where are you ever going to find a lawyer?"

....and God said, "What do you mean 'find'? I'm going to create the only
honest lawyer that has ever existed," and snapped his fingers. Jesus
Christ himself appeared in a puff of smoke, wearing an Italian suit.

Get it?

 

[Death to Smoochy]

"Dave VanHorn" <dvanhorn@dvanhorn.org> wrote in news5ydnYni2ulneN_fRVn-
uA@comcast.com:

And just wait till you meet their legal staff.

I'm anxiously awaiting their viscous e-mail ....





.....






..... still waiting.

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

On Fri, 25 Mar 2005 16:26:51 GMT, Death to Smoochy <#@&.$> wrote:

Nested below your excellent link, I found the following tenchincal details
about the e-meter,

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/E-Meter/Mark-VII/index.html

but I still have one question. Why do you need an 8051 on a VOM meter with
a needle galvanometer? It's all analog!!!

I think that page has a heading under which it explains why the 8051
is appropriate.

Jon

 

[Don Taylor]

John Woodgate <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> writes:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Don Taylor <dont@agora.rdrop.com
wrote (in <g9udnaaWA8-dyd3fRVn-3w@scnresearch.com&gt about 'E-Meter?', on
Tue, 22 Mar 2005:

Really. Limiting this to higher vertebrates, what are the "current
methods" that you are thinking of? Having observed this a bit, maybe
I've just missed something someone is using.

Maybe not, just underestimating how much an experience vet can Sherlock
out of small signs. I would emphasise that I am not a vet.

Neither am I.

You look at a cat, the cat doesn't seem like it wants to tell you if
something is hurting or where it is hurting,

Yes, cats can be rather difficult. But the drill is just as for human
people; look first. Eyes can signal pain quite well. Elevated
heart-rate, rapid breathing, prostration - all these signs are
indicative.

unless you start prodding with your fingers and look for a flinch,

Palpation is the next step, AFTER visual observation, I believe.
Observation can give a good steer to where the pain is, and its nature.
Abdominal pain can be difficult, of course, but, for instance, in an
elderly cat, kidney and bladder trouble can be indicated by an inability
to micturate. Pain due to skeletal trauma can be indicated by
characteristic posture.

I discussed the possibility with a neurophysiology researcher at one
time, whether there might be something in the brain that could be
feasibly sensed if the body was hammering the brain with pain messages.

or perhaps withdraw and go wash the blood off your fingers as one vet
did when trying this on Jack for the first time.

Cats, however apparently friendly and tolerant, should always be
constrained in a rubber boot, IMHO.

Jack is much better than he used to be, I haven't seriously bled
in a while, and he has a prominent note in his vet chart, enough
that I see their eyebrows go up when they open the chart

....

What's this about? Magnetic fields are (one of) my field. What shape and
position would you like? (;-)

Persinger is applying varying low level magnetic fields to the temporal
region and publishing a variety of results. But he admits in print
that the current techniques of a handful of reed relay coils strapped
to the head, a short iron rod slipped into the core of each and a few
d-to-a to drive these still means it is prodding in the dark. I don't
know how fine a "probe" could be constructed to try tickling particular
regions.

Ah, I don't want to go there. I think it's far too dangerous.

Oh well... thanks anyway, I'll look elsewhere

....

Short term exposure to loud noise shows temporary tinnitus like
symptoms afterwards. Long term can result in some being labelled
tinnitus. But an accepted and testable mechanism for tinnitus, other
than very special unusual sub-cases, doesn't seem like it has been
found yet. If we could pretty clearly point to evidence of a
particular mechanism, even in one or a few subjects, maybe someone
could think of a cute method to counteract that. But without any
mechanism we are still groping.

I'm not sure that increased understanding of the mechanism would help.
The structures involved are very small indeed. Knowing that the noise is
due to Q9 in an SMD op-amp is not much help if you can't change the
whole op-amp because the PCB is potted, and the ear stuff is around 1000
times smaller, and potted in rather sensitive material!

Without a mechanism I don't think there will likely be any progress.
The only new idea in the last few decades was the loud white noise
"maskers" and those were only discovered in an accidental observation
by a subject.

Could we find a way to modestly speed up or slow down nerve conduction
in the limbs only on one side of the body, that would be constant and
could be applied for a relatively long period of time and would not
cause any other changes?

I think you need a tricorder to do that.

Naaa... no need to invoke Star Trek to say something can't be done.

Lighten up!

I thought the response was a reasonable match

I have a few papers buried here somewhere, one where they were able to
fuse amphibian embryos at the 4 cell stage and end up with some normal
adult amphibians, where 1/2 the body was from one embryo and the other
from the other. Slip in a mutation for thinner or thicker myelin on
the nerves and that would be one way.

Oh, yes, you could do it with chimeras. Now, as it happens, about half
the human population has chimera potential. It's been known for a long
time that females have two X chromosomes, but it was assumed that only
one was active. That's been found not to be true; in many women, both
are active, but in different cells. On-going studies suggest that the
situation in any given female may be quite complex.

Now if one half of a woman has thinner myelin than the other, can that
half run faster? (;-)

Nope. But something else much more interesting might be observed,
if we had a handful of subjects to try to average out the variation.

....

I remember a guy who almost made a career of publishing little teaser
articles on his study of bat ultrasound production. Every paper gave a
tiny bit of information, with promises that the next paper would reveal
the real scoop. None of them seemed to really provide the answers.

This is very like the current position on objective measurement of
speech intelligibility

I can imagine

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Don Taylor <dont@agora.rdrop.com>
wrote (in <ptudnQrPrY9i5N3fRVn-vg@scnresearch.com&gt about 'E-Meter?', on
Tue, 22 Mar 2005:

Short term exposure to loud noise shows temporary tinnitus like
symptoms afterwards. Long term can result in some being labelled
tinnitus. But an accepted and testable mechanism for tinnitus, other
than very special unusual sub-cases, doesn't seem like it has been
found yet. If we could pretty clearly point to evidence of a
particular mechanism, even in one or a few subjects, maybe someone
could think of a cute method to counteract that. But without any
mechanism we are still groping.

I'm not sure that increased understanding of the mechanism would help.
The structures involved are very small indeed. Knowing that the noise is
due to Q9 in an SMD op-amp is not much help if you can't change the
whole op-amp because the PCB is potted, and the ear stuff is around 1000
times smaller, and potted in rather sensitive material!

Without a mechanism I don't think there will likely be any progress.
The only new idea in the last few decades was the loud white noise
"maskers" and those were only discovered in an accidental observation
by a subject.

What I meant was that electronic engineers can rather easily produce
plausible explanations for all the sorts of noise that tinnitus patients
report (and some are even emitted from the ear canal and can be
independently recorded). But it's a huge step from that to finding a way
of repairing the damage.

Recently, it has been reported that hair-cell degeneration in some small
experimental animal (chicken, guinea-pig, hamster,) has been reversed by
a natural growth-factor. That would help with age-related high-frequency
loss, and perhaps with tinnitus as well.
A Google using 'hair-cell*regeneration' (the asterisk with no spaces
forces an AND rule) produces lots of hits that you may well find
interesting.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
There are two sides to every question, except
'What is a Moebius strip?'
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Death to Smoochy]

dont@agora.rdrop.com (Don Taylor) wrote in news:846dnSM9abrUbaLfRVn-
qQ@scnresearch.com:

I hoped it might be enough for me not to criticize them.

You're letting the terrorists win.

We certainly need some substantial advance in the therapy business.
And pharmacuticals aren't yet the answer to all these problems.

Are you a therapist?

Oh good grief. Nope, not me, I'm just curious about brains.

Well, drugs & therapy work better together than either one separately.
An e-meter method might further improve the success rate.

Nothing about oscilloscopes?

Been a long time since I helped design those.

No need to design it. Just hook up an OTS unit to their DMM readout.

If we want to try to drag this conversation back towards electronics
then there are a variety of measurements that could be made that
might not be easy to do but would be very interesting.

The great thing about the e-meter is that it's both easy AND
interesting.

Could we find a way to confirm or refute my hypothesis that most
of tinnitus is a failure in the automatic gain control system
that is built into the auditory system?

You could ask in sci.med. I sometimes read physiology and anatomy when
I get bored, and I am endlessly amazed at the scientific details of a
living organism. Try it and you'll never go back to lowly engineering.

And you might find your answer neatly presented in the chapter on
auditory neurology.

Could we find a way to modestly speed up or slow down nerve
conduction in the limbs only on one side of the body, that would
be constant and could be applied for a relatively long period of
time and would not cause any other changes?

This is like asking for a way to change the signal conduction speed in a
piece of coaxial wire.

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Death to Smoochy wrote:

"Dave VanHorn" <dvanhorn@dvanhorn.org> wrote in news5ydnYni2ulneN_fRVn-
uA@comcast.com:

And just wait till you meet their legal staff.

I'm anxiously awaiting their viscous e-mail ....

....

.... still waiting.

Its oozing slowly through the mail slot.

;-)

--
Paul Hovnanian mailtoaul@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
Disclaimer - These opiini^H^H damn! ^H^H ^Q ^[ .... :w :q :wq :wq! ^d
exit X Q ^C ^? :quitbye CtrlAltDel ~~q :~q logout save/quit :!QUIT
^[zz ^[ZZZZZZ ^H man vi ^@ ^L ^[c ^# ^E ^X ^I ^T ? help helpquit ^D
man quit ^C ^c ?Quit ?q CtrlShftDel "Hey, what does this button d..."

 

[Don Taylor]

Death to Smoochy <#@&.$> writes:

dont@agora.rdrop.com (Don Taylor) wrote in news:846dnSM9abrUbaLfRVn-
qQ@scnresearch.com:

I hoped it might be enough for me not to criticize them.

You're letting the terrorists win.

I try to choose my battles. This isn't one of mine.

We certainly need some substantial advance in the therapy business.
And pharmacuticals aren't yet the answer to all these problems.

Are you a therapist?

Oh good grief. Nope, not me, I'm just curious about brains.

Well, drugs & therapy work better together than either one separately.
An e-meter method might further improve the success rate.

Nothing about oscilloscopes?

Been a long time since I helped design those.

No need to design it. Just hook up an OTS unit to their DMM readout.

If we want to try to drag this conversation back towards electronics
then there are a variety of measurements that could be made that
might not be easy to do but would be very interesting.

The great thing about the e-meter is that it's both easy AND
interesting.

Could we find a way to confirm or refute my hypothesis that most
of tinnitus is a failure in the automatic gain control system
that is built into the auditory system?

You could ask in sci.med. I sometimes read physiology and anatomy when
I get bored, and I am endlessly amazed at the scientific details of a
living organism. Try it and you'll never go back to lowly engineering.

I've already done a reasonable amount of reading, they don't really have
an agreen on mechanism for tinnitus. And I've spent time learning a bit
of biology.

And you might find your answer neatly presented in the chapter on
auditory neurology.

Actually tried that. "Descending Control", particularly in the auditory
system isn't particularly well studied yet.

Could we find a way to modestly speed up or slow down nerve
conduction in the limbs only on one side of the body, that would
be constant and could be applied for a relatively long period of
time and would not cause any other changes?

This is like asking for a way to change the signal conduction speed in a
piece of coaxial wire.

Actually, nerves might have both more and fewer free variables than coax.
You can yank out the coax and solder in a different one. That is more
of a problem if you tried to suggest doing that with the nervous system.
But the nerve conduction speed is dependent on a variety of factors that
might be open to modification, finding a way to adjust the thickness of
the insulating meilin of the nerves is just one possibility. Perhaps
there are other even more elegant ways to do this that would satisfy
questions about whether the change was simultaneously changing other
things in the system.