Driver to drive?

E · Jan 31, 2013

"Adrian Jansen" <adrian@qq.vv.net> kirjoitti
viestissä:51099c1c$0$21730$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com...

On 31/1/2013 5:18 AM, John Larkin wrote:

Gosh, i am seeing LED lamp and luminaire ratings of 50,000 hours and up,
even claims of over 100,000 hours. You would need damn good PSUs for
those.

?-)

Or you need some imagination. That's around 35 years at 8 hours a day, so
there's little risk to making the claim and being off by 4:1 or so.

I too am very sceptical of those 50,000+ hour ratings. One can only
presume they do some sort of high temp accelerated test to base the figure
on. Unless its just purely marketing guesswork.

However even if they are optimistic by a factor of 5, that still makes the
LED regardable as a fixture, rather than a replaceable item, in the
average domestic/business installation.

For domestic that may be considered fixture, but for business use 50000
hours
is just 2.5 times fluorescent tube lifetime ie. about 5 years. Lack of
replaceable
*standardized* bulbs is big drawback for led technology. Leds are damn
expensive to begin with and the need to replace the whole luminaire every
five years means much more installing work (expensive).

Also at 50000 h they typically quote something like 70% light output
remaining.
It means that to achieve some minimum lighting level at end of life, you
must
design with 30% extra power initially so most of lifetime you are making
more
light than necessary. Fluorescents drop only by 10% so not much a problem.
Of course if you have feedback on lighting level, then it is not any
problem.

Energy saving of leds compared to modern well designed fluorescent lighting
is anyway questionable at best. Of course if you compare leds to some old
non-designed system with 18W halophospate tubes with D-class ballast,
plastic diffuser and no reflector you get impressive numbers to put in ads.

Even if you spend big bucks for led lighting you do not necessarily save any
energy over fl. lighting. But using conventional light sources, natural
lightning and good design does not give you any "Green PR" like leds do.

tm · Jan 31, 2013

"Martin Riddle" <martin_rid@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:quhlg85dadi93q23cdl8kpkbbeo7t68mu5@4ax.com...

On Wed, 30 Jan 2013 20:16:28 -0800, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
paul@hovnanian.com> wrote:

TO-92 package

markings:

"650"
"B24"

I've got dozens of them. Wondering if I can use them for anything.

2N650 ?

Cheers

That would have been BP ... Before Plastic. A 2N650 is a PNP Ge in a TO-5
can.

Michael A. Terrell · Jan 31, 2013

Sjouke Burry wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:vvidne0Hj9D4JZfMnZ2dnUVZ_r6dnZ2d@earthlink.com:

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 16:53:54 +1100, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au
wrote:

"Paul Hovnanian P.E."

TO-92 package

markings:

"650"
"B24"

** Two legs or three?

... Phil

Three legs good, two legs better.

Have you ever sat on a two legged stool?
Even sat on a one-legged one.
Used while milking a cow.(to sit on )

How can you milk a cow, while it's sitting on a one legged stool?

I never milked a cow, even though I spent time on farms. My
grandfather didn't think little kids should be in the barn, till they
were old enough to strip tobacco. I did some of the other chores,
though.

Michael A. Terrell · Jan 31, 2013

Oppie wrote:

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <paul@hovnanian.com> wrote in message
news:qOudnZONqpmfbZTMnZ2dnUVZ_uCdnZ2d@giganews.com...
How do I set a laser printer to stun?

You might try printing some stunning graphics?...

Or just drop it on someone's head to stun them.

amdx · Feb 1, 2013

On 1/31/2013 8:39 PM, Dennis wrote:

Saw this advert - shower head with LEDs to illuminate the water stream,
coulour indicates temperature.

http://www.coolproductsusa.com/shop/led-shower-head-with-temperature-sensor/?fb_action_ids=3921615035746&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=hovercard&fb_aggregation_id=246965925417366

Supposedly without batteries or external power.

"No batteries and external power supply needed.
The color change tells you the water temperature.
Bright LED light.
Approved by CE & RoHS certificates.
Electricity is generated by hydraulic mechanism."

I wonder what mecahnism they use to generate the power & if it really is
as bright as the marketing pictures depict!

No doubt they will make a few dollars out of it!

They're out of stock! The faucet unit is only $6.99, for that price

I'd tear it apart just to see how it works.
I expect someone to explain it. ;-)
Mikek

Hurtlin' Squirty · Feb 1, 2013

On 01/31/2013 06:39 PM, Dennis wrote:

Saw this advert - shower head with LEDs to illuminate the water
stream, coulour indicates temperature.

http://www.coolproductsusa.com/shop/led-shower-head-with-temperature-sensor/?fb_action_
ids=3921615035746&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=hovercard&fb_aggregation_id=246965925417366

Green water is colder than blue water? That's wrong!

WoolyBully · Feb 1, 2013

On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 10:39:08 +0800, Dennis <none@null.net.au> wrote:

Saw this advert - shower head with LEDs to illuminate the water stream,
coulour indicates temperature.

snipped long line.

Supposedly without batteries or external power.

"No batteries and external power supply needed.
The color change tells you the water temperature.
Bright LED light.
Approved by CE & RoHS certificates.
Electricity is generated by hydraulic mechanism."

I wonder what mecahnism they use to generate the power & if it really is
as bright as the marketing pictures depict!

No doubt they will make a few dollars out of it!

It cannot be that hard to generate the juice required to fully

illuminate 20 LEDs.

WoolyBully · Feb 1, 2013

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 19:46:51 -0800, Hurtlin' Squirty <r@ttlers.org>
wrote:

On 01/31/2013 06:39 PM, Dennis wrote:
Saw this advert - shower head with LEDs to illuminate the water
stream, coulour indicates temperature.

http://www.coolproductsusa.com/shop/led-shower-head-with-temperature-sensor/?fb_action_
ids=3921615035746&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=hovercard&fb_aggregation_id=246965925417366

Green water is colder than blue water? That's wrong!

Blue is the hottest color in the universe.

Red flame - hot

Blue flame - HOTTER

Artsy fartsy wise, however, both blue and green are considered "cool"
colors.

English power cord... The BROWN wire is always 'the hot'. It is easy
to remember if one just remembers hot and cold.

John Larkin · Feb 1, 2013

On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 10:39:08 +0800, Dennis <none@null.net.au> wrote:

Saw this advert - shower head with LEDs to illuminate the water stream,
coulour indicates temperature.

http://www.coolproductsusa.com/shop/led-shower-head-with-temperature-sensor/?fb_action_ids=3921615035746&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=hovercard&fb_aggregation_id=246965925417366

Supposedly without batteries or external power.

"No batteries and external power supply needed.
The color change tells you the water temperature.
Bright LED light.
Approved by CE & RoHS certificates.
Electricity is generated by hydraulic mechanism."

I wonder what mecahnism they use to generate the power & if it really is
as bright as the marketing pictures depict!

No doubt they will make a few dollars out of it!

You could in theory have a shower head that delivered 50 watts or so of
electrical power from the pressure drop.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators

SoothSayer · Feb 1, 2013

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:45:38 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 10:39:08 +0800, Dennis <none@null.net.au> wrote:

Saw this advert - shower head with LEDs to illuminate the water stream,
coulour indicates temperature.

Supposedly without batteries or external power.

"No batteries and external power supply needed.
The color change tells you the water temperature.
Bright LED light.
Approved by CE & RoHS certificates.
Electricity is generated by hydraulic mechanism."

I wonder what mecahnism they use to generate the power & if it really is
as bright as the marketing pictures depict!

No doubt they will make a few dollars out of it!

You could in theory have a shower head that delivered 50 watts or so of
electrical power from the pressure drop.

Well, remove the restrictor, and you get that back.

So, the generator can be set (designed) to spool up until the drop
matches what a proper, restricted head would deliver.

They would always be red with me. My showers are 125 degrees.

geoff · Feb 1, 2013

"SoothSayer" <SaySooth@TheMonastery.org> wrote in message
news:rbimg81f27f5imqkpgdu2sqak7a1398j4d@4ax.com...

matches what a proper, restricted head would deliver.

They would always be red with me. My showers are 125 degrees.

Steam bath ?

geoff

Michael A. Terrell · Feb 1, 2013

geoff wrote:

"SoothSayer" <SaySooth@TheMonastery.org> wrote in message
news:rbimg81f27f5imqkpgdu2sqak7a1398j4d@4ax.com...
matches what a proper, restricted head would deliver.

They would always be red with me. My showers are 125 degrees.

Steam bath ?

No, just a hothead.

John Larkin · Feb 1, 2013

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 21:01:20 -0800, SoothSayer <SaySooth@TheMonastery.org>
wrote:

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 20:45:38 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 10:39:08 +0800, Dennis <none@null.net.au> wrote:

Saw this advert - shower head with LEDs to illuminate the water stream,
coulour indicates temperature.

Supposedly without batteries or external power.

"No batteries and external power supply needed.
The color change tells you the water temperature.
Bright LED light.
Approved by CE & RoHS certificates.
Electricity is generated by hydraulic mechanism."

I wonder what mecahnism they use to generate the power & if it really is
as bright as the marketing pictures depict!

No doubt they will make a few dollars out of it!

You could in theory have a shower head that delivered 50 watts or so of
electrical power from the pressure drop.

Well, remove the restrictor, and you get that back.

So, the generator can be set (designed) to spool up until the drop
matches what a proper, restricted head would deliver.

They would always be red with me. My showers are 125 degrees.

EEs should be legally exempt from having to use low-flow shower heads. We get
all our best ideas in a good hot shower.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology Inc
www.highlandtechnology.com jlarkin at highlandtechnology dot com

Precision electronic instrumentation
Picosecond-resolution Digital Delay and Pulse generators
Custom timing and laser controllers
Photonics and fiberoptic TTL data links
VME analog, thermocouple, LVDT, synchro, tachometer
Multichannel arbitrary waveform generators

Dennis · Feb 1, 2013

On 1/02/2013 12:45 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 10:39:08 +0800, Dennis <none@null.net.au> wrote:

Saw this advert - shower head with LEDs to illuminate the water stream,
coulour indicates temperature.

http://www.coolproductsusa.com/shop/led-shower-head-with-temperature-sensor/?fb_action_ids=3921615035746&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=hovercard&fb_aggregation_id=246965925417366

Supposedly without batteries or external power.

"No batteries and external power supply needed.
The color change tells you the water temperature.
Bright LED light.
Approved by CE & RoHS certificates.
Electricity is generated by hydraulic mechanism."

I wonder what mecahnism they use to generate the power & if it really is
as bright as the marketing pictures depict!

No doubt they will make a few dollars out of it!

You could in theory have a shower head that delivered 50 watts or so of
electrical power from the pressure drop.

Yeah you could but how would you do it in a consumer product flogged for
$10.

Found a video here, doesn't look as bright as in the advert:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG1ZDpPA5l4

josephkk · Feb 1, 2013

On 31 Jan 2013 09:27:49 GMT, Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2013-01-30, Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> wrote:
josephkk wrote:

On Mon, 28 Jan 2013 14:45:13 -0600, Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> wrote:

Jon, i am far from worlds greatest vocalist and i can control my vibrato
in strength and frequency. If i can do it surely many professionals can.

Yes, but the OTHER "Jon" said that two vocalists SYNCHED their vibrato,

frequency control and feedback is all that's needed for that feat.

it's called a PLL.

I think what makes this interesting is that two people did this sans
electronics; or maybe not (it could have been done electronically). If i
knew which track(s) i would love to listen to it for that property.

?-)

josephkk · Feb 1, 2013

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 22:30:16 +0200, "E" <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

I too am very sceptical of those 50,000+ hour ratings. One can only
presume they do some sort of high temp accelerated test to base the figure
on. Unless its just purely marketing guesswork.

However even if they are optimistic by a factor of 5, that still makes the
LED regardable as a fixture, rather than a replaceable item, in the
average domestic/business installation.

For domestic that may be considered fixture, but for business use 50000
hours
is just 2.5 times fluorescent tube lifetime ie. about 5 years. Lack of
replaceable
*standardized* bulbs is big drawback for led technology. Leds are damn
expensive to begin with and the need to replace the whole luminaire every
five years means much more installing work (expensive).

Also at 50000 h they typically quote something like 70% light output
remaining.
It means that to achieve some minimum lighting level at end of life, you
must
design with 30% extra power initially so most of lifetime you are making
more
light than necessary. Fluorescents drop only by 10% so not much a problem.
Of course if you have feedback on lighting level, then it is not any
problem.

Energy saving of leds compared to modern well designed fluorescent lighting
is anyway questionable at best. Of course if you compare leds to some old
non-designed system with 18W halophospate tubes with D-class ballast,
plastic diffuser and no reflector you get impressive numbers to put in ads.

Even if you spend big bucks for led lighting you do not necessarily save any
energy over fl. lighting. But using conventional light sources, natural
lightning and good design does not give you any "Green PR" like leds do.

Some Sites/pages to consider:

http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/nlpip/lightinganswers/t8/05-t8-lamp-life.asp

http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/futures/LF-LampLife/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_light

http://www.lithonia.com/micro_webs/electronicballast/source.pdf

http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/programs/nlpip/lightinganswers/hwcfl/HWCFL-life.asp

It seems that fluorescent life varies a bit over the range of 10,000 -
20,000 hours, LEDs range from 50,000 - 100,000 hours. I thus challenge
your only 2.5 times the life.

Depending on usage LEDs can deliver more lumens per watt, near equivalent
CRI, dimmability (something fluorescent does not handle well at all) and
some other useful trade offs. For some applications LEDs rock, for others
there are plenty of lamp technologies.

Induction lighting in particular is still giving all other technologies
fits in several applications.

?-)

Martin Brown · Feb 1, 2013

On 01/02/2013 06:06, josephkk wrote:

On 31 Jan 2013 09:27:49 GMT, Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> wrote:

On 2013-01-30, Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> wrote:
josephkk wrote:

On Mon, 28 Jan 2013 14:45:13 -0600, Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> wrote:

Jon, i am far from worlds greatest vocalist and i can control my vibrato
in strength and frequency. If i can do it surely many professionals can.

Yes, but the OTHER "Jon" said that two vocalists SYNCHED their vibrato,

frequency control and feedback is all that's needed for that feat.

it's called a PLL.

I think what makes this interesting is that two people did this sans
electronics; or maybe not (it could have been done electronically). If i
knew which track(s) i would love to listen to it for that property.

?-)

I am fairly convinced that most of it is down to clever post production
electronic sound engineering with then state of the art gear. If you
want to decide for your self try the album Arrival 1977 which sparkles
whereas their live performances at the time were described as "Boring".

http://music.wikia.com/wiki/ABBA

The MP3 samples on Amazon are not technically that good at fairly low
bit rates but should show it if you listen to any of samples

2 Dancing Queen
5 Knowing me, Knowing you
11 Fernando

Which have all got slow sustained bits with the girls voices relatively
strong and clearly showing the feature he describes. I still think it is
close miked and tweaked in post production. They were at the time
legendary for very clever studio work in the "Wall of Sound" vein.

I couldn't find anything useful about how it was done technically. Maybe
someone who can read Swedish could perhaps fill in the gaps.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

SoothSayer · Feb 1, 2013

On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 13:58:56 +0800, Dennis <none@null.net.au> wrote:

On 1/02/2013 12:45 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 01 Feb 2013 10:39:08 +0800, Dennis <none@null.net.au> wrote:

Saw this advert - shower head with LEDs to illuminate the water stream,
coulour indicates temperature.

Supposedly without batteries or external power.

"No batteries and external power supply needed.
The color change tells you the water temperature.
Bright LED light.
Approved by CE & RoHS certificates.
Electricity is generated by hydraulic mechanism."

I wonder what mecahnism they use to generate the power & if it really is
as bright as the marketing pictures depict!

No doubt they will make a few dollars out of it!

You could in theory have a shower head that delivered 50 watts or so of
electrical power from the pressure drop.

Yeah you could but how would you do it in a consumer product flogged for
$10.

Found a video here, doesn't look as bright as in the advert:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gG1ZDpPA5l4

In an apartment, where the water is free, one could use such a device
to generate some of their electrical need. Wasting much free water, of
course. But folks do that all the time these days.

Jan Panteltje · Feb 1, 2013

On a sunny day (Fri, 01 Feb 2013 10:39:08 +0800) it happened Dennis
<none@null.net.au> wrote in <i5edndP9R5Ytt5bMnZ2dnUVZ_vmdnZ2d@westnet.com.au>:

Saw this advert - shower head with LEDs to illuminate the water stream,
coulour indicates temperature.

http://www.coolproductsusa.com/shop/led-shower-head-with-temperature-sensor/?fb_action_ids=3921615035746&fb_action_types=og.like
s&fb_source=hovercard&fb_aggregation_id=246965925417366

Supposedly without batteries or external power.

"No batteries and external power supply needed.
The color change tells you the water temperature.
Bright LED light.
Approved by CE & RoHS certificates.
Electricity is generated by hydraulic mechanism."

I wonder what mecahnism they use to generate the power & if it really is
as bright as the marketing pictures depict!

No doubt they will make a few dollars out of it!

Probably some rotating turbine generator
Water pressure can do that, pity water is expensive here,
else it could replace my power company...

Dennis · Feb 1, 2013

On 1/02/2013 2:30 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Spehro Pefhany wrote:

On Thu, 31 Jan 2013 16:53:54 +1100, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au
wrote:

"Paul Hovnanian P.E."

TO-92 package

markings:

"650"
"B24"

** Two legs or three?

... Phil

Three legs good, two legs better.

Have you ever sat on a two legged stool?

If my stools had legs I'd be off to the doctor very quickly.

Driver to drive?

E

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