Driver to drive?

[Phil Allison]

"John Larkin"
"Phil Allison"

"Tim Williams is so full of shit "


Yes, suffice it to say, even though (dry slug) tantalums tend to have
ESR
comparable to (higher grade) electrolytics, they are far, far simpler:

** Their failure modes are many and failures far more common too.

If you keep dV/dT down, they are very reliable.

** Absolute crap.

As fucking usual, Larkin has no idea of what he speaks and does not give a
shit either.

FOAD - septic pisshead.



.... Phil

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:00:38 +1100, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

"John Larkin"
"Phil Allison"

"Tim Williams is so full of shit "


Yes, suffice it to say, even though (dry slug) tantalums tend to have
ESR
comparable to (higher grade) electrolytics, they are far, far simpler:

** Their failure modes are many and failures far more common too.

If you keep dV/dT down, they are very reliable.


** Absolute crap.

As fucking usual, Larkin has no idea of what he speaks and does not give a
shit either.

I've used well over 100,000 tantalum caps in the last 6 years or so.
53,000 of 2.2u 20v alone. The only ones that failed were loaded
backwards or were on power rails that had high dV/dT available.

Soft-starting regulators, or derating the tants about 3:1 on voltage,
takes care of the dV/dT problem. Then they are beautifully reliable.

Of course, ceramics are cheaper and smaller, so I use them when I can.

John

 

[Phil Allison]

"John Larkin"

"Phil Allison"

"Tim Williams is so full of shit "


Yes, suffice it to say, even though (dry slug) tantalums tend to have
ESR
comparable to (higher grade) electrolytics, they are far, far simpler:

** Their failure modes are many and failures far more common too.

If you keep dV/dT down, they are very reliable.


** Absolute crap.

As fucking usual, Larkin has no idea of what he speaks and does not give
a
shit either.


I've used well over 100,000 tantalum caps in the last 6 years or so.
53,000 of 2.2u 20v alone. The only ones that failed were loaded
backwards or were on power rails that had high dV/dT available.

** So you have NOT seen the general failure rates with all brands of tants
and across all types of equipment.

You know no-one who has and do not give a shit either.

Fuck off to hell - you rabid, septic psychopath.

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:33:54 +1100, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

"John Larkin"
"Phil Allison"

"Tim Williams is so full of shit "


Yes, suffice it to say, even though (dry slug) tantalums tend to have
ESR
comparable to (higher grade) electrolytics, they are far, far simpler:

** Their failure modes are many and failures far more common too.

If you keep dV/dT down, they are very reliable.


** Absolute crap.

As fucking usual, Larkin has no idea of what he speaks and does not give
a
shit either.


I've used well over 100,000 tantalum caps in the last 6 years or so.
53,000 of 2.2u 20v alone. The only ones that failed were loaded
backwards or were on power rails that had high dV/dT available.


** So you have NOT seen the general failure rates with all brands of tants
and across all types of equipment.

I see very low failure rates in the equipmennt I design. I'm sure
there is badly designed gear that blows tantalum caps.

I'm not a repair tech, so I don't deal with a lot of equipment
designed by somebody else.

John

 

[Phil Allison]

"John Larkin"

"Phil Allison"

"Tim Williams is so full of shit "


Yes, suffice it to say, even though (dry slug) tantalums tend to
have
ESR
comparable to (higher grade) electrolytics, they are far, far
simpler:

** Their failure modes are many and failures far more common too.

If you keep dV/dT down, they are very reliable.


** Absolute crap.

As fucking usual, Larkin has no idea of what he speaks and does not
give
a shit either.


I've used well over 100,000 tantalum caps in the last 6 years or so.
53,000 of 2.2u 20v alone. The only ones that failed were loaded
backwards or were on power rails that had high dV/dT available.


** So you have NOT seen the general failure rates with all brands of
tants
and across all types of equipment.

You know no-one who has and do not give a shit either.

Fuck off to hell - you rabid, septic psychopath.


I see very low failure rates in the equipmennt I design. I'm sure
there is badly designed gear that blows tantalum caps.

I'm not a repair tech, so I don't deal with a lot of equipment
designed by somebody else.

** SO SHUT THE FUCK UP

- YOU BLOODY IMBECILE !!!!!!!




.... Phil

 

[Martin Brown]

John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:08:28 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:25:32 +1100, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au
wrote:

"Dishum"
I'm a hobbyist who doesn't have an ESR meter or (usually) a choice of
specific capacitor models and I'd like to have some idea of the kind of
ESR values one would expect from capacitors that are neither particularly
good nor particularly crappy in that respect. I'll really appreciate it if
you could cite some ballpark figures for -

1. 1uF/50V wet Al electrolytic
2. 100uF/25V wet Al electrolytic
3. 1000uF/50V wet Al electrolytic
4. 1uF/25V tantalum

** Measured from my parts bins:

1 = 3.1 ohms
2 = 0.5 ohms
3 = 0.06 ohms
4 = 4.2 ohms

In each case, the figure is for high frequency ESR or impedance at 100kHz.

ESR rises at low frequencies ( under 500Hz ) and falls with increasing
temperature.

Also, when an electro goes bad (ie dries out ) - ESR rises first followed
much later by a reduction in actual uF.

That sounds very reasonable. But there seems to be another quicker form
of "goes bad" that happens with annoying regularity on PC motherboards -
usually to the low voltage ram PSU capacitors but sometimes elsewhere.

I have just had an annoying incident with my own main PC motherboard
where the ram PSU capacitors ATWB 1800uF 6.3v (nominally ultra low ESR)
had started to bulge and over the past month a rock solid machine turned
into something that required a several goes just to get past the POST.
The situation seemed to be worst from a cold start after a weekend off
and once warmed up the machine would become "reliable" after a fashion.

I thought all the bother with dodgy electrolytes outgassing had been
fixed a long time ago, but I seem to have a similar fault on a modern
board

I finally attacked the motherboard with a soldering iron today and was
quite disappointed to find that at the low power and frequency my basic
tester uses they measured as OK at 1820 and 1940uF and <0.05R. I presume
they only give up the ghost at ~100kHz and a couple of amps ripple. The
ends were obviously bulging and they had taken on a rakish angle on the
board as they expanded. I was a bit surprised that they still measured
OK but went ahead and put new Rubicon 1800uF 10v caps in their place.

It seems to have done the trick <FX> crosses fingers </FX>.

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Phil Allison]

"Martin Brown"

I finally attacked the motherboard with a soldering iron today and was
quite disappointed to find that at the low power and frequency my basic
tester uses they measured as OK at 1820 and 1940uF and <0.05R.

** Low ESR types of that value should be no more than 3 to 10 milliohms.

At 10 times over and bulging - they are comprehensively stuffed.



.... Phil

 

[Martin Brown]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Martin Brown"

I finally attacked the motherboard with a soldering iron today and was
quite disappointed to find that at the low power and frequency my basic
tester uses they measured as OK at 1820 and 1940uF and <0.05R.


** Low ESR types of that value should be no more than 3 to 10 milliohms.

Thanks for this, but I can't measure series resistance down that low.
It's just a quick and dirty tester.

At 10 times over and bulging - they are comprehensively stuffed.

That is certainly true. It seems to behave with the new capacitors in.

The bulging was the give away. The ones that bulged all had brown
sleeves, an "X" on the end cap and were ATWB by maker Toshin Kogyo.

Datasheet tends to suggest that about 15mR is normal at 100kHz.
(reading between the lines at 1800uF which isn't listed here)
http://www.ost.com.tw/PDF/TK/EC_TK_ATWB.pdf

The Rubicon 10v ZLJ part from its datasheet was good for 2.5A ripple and
about 30mR @ 100kHz which is in the right ballpark.

Basically I couldn't measure the differences between them on the bench
with a simple quick tester (and at low current).

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Jon]

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:q4puh7puibkrbf5so4i6ngikalhldglb4a@4ax.com...
<snip>

Tantalum ESR tends to be in sort of a sweet spot for taming voltage
regulators, both switchers and linear.


Until they have exploded, that is

Tantalums can be very reliable, much better than aluminums. You just
have to handle them properly.

John

You don't always get to handle them before they explode John....
I had one double cap blow while I removed the lid of the computer.




--- Posted via news://freenews.netfront.net/ - Complaints to news@netfront.net ---

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:53:17 +1100, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au>
wrote:

"John Larkin"
"Phil Allison"

"Tim Williams is so full of shit "


Yes, suffice it to say, even though (dry slug) tantalums tend to
have
ESR
comparable to (higher grade) electrolytics, they are far, far
simpler:

** Their failure modes are many and failures far more common too.

If you keep dV/dT down, they are very reliable.


** Absolute crap.

As fucking usual, Larkin has no idea of what he speaks and does not
give
a shit either.


I've used well over 100,000 tantalum caps in the last 6 years or so.
53,000 of 2.2u 20v alone. The only ones that failed were loaded
backwards or were on power rails that had high dV/dT available.


** So you have NOT seen the general failure rates with all brands of
tants
and across all types of equipment.

You know no-one who has and do not give a shit either.

Fuck off to hell - you rabid, septic psychopath.


I see very low failure rates in the equipmennt I design. I'm sure
there is badly designed gear that blows tantalum caps.

I'm not a repair tech, so I don't deal with a lot of equipment
designed by somebody else.



** SO SHUT THE FUCK UP

- YOU BLOODY IMBECILE !!!!!!!




.... Phil

I think your ESR tester doesn't work very well with low-uF parts.

John

 

[Tim Wescott]

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:21:25 -0800, John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:59:47 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:08:28 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:25:32 +1100, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au
wrote:


"Dishum"

I'm a hobbyist who doesn't have an ESR meter or (usually) a choice
of specific capacitor models and I'd like to have some idea of the
kind of ESR values one would expect from capacitors that are neither
particularly good nor particularly crappy in that respect. I'll
really appreciate it if you could cite some ballpark figures for -

1. 1uF/50V wet Al electrolytic
2. 100uF/25V wet Al electrolytic
3. 1000uF/50V wet Al electrolytic
4. 1uF/25V tantalum


** Measured from my parts bins:

1 = 3.1 ohms
2 = 0.5 ohms
3 = 0.06 ohms
4 = 4.2 ohms

In each case, the figure is for high frequency ESR or impedance at
100kHz.

ESR rises at low frequencies ( under 500Hz ) and falls with increasing
temperature.

Also, when an electro goes bad (ie dries out ) - ESR rises first
followed much later by a reduction in actual uF.



... Phil


That seems high for the tantalum. I seem to recall numbers like a
couple tenths of an ohm. I'll try a couple. I don't have an ESR meter,
but I can just apply a square wave from a 50 ohm generator and scope
the voltage.

Hmmm, both of the 1u caps have about the same ESR.

John





I tried a standard leaded gumdrop tantalum, 1 uF at 35 volts, and got
about 0.75 ohms.

22u 16v was about 0.35 ohms.

Tantalum ESR tends to be in sort of a sweet spot for taming voltage
regulators, both switchers and linear.

John


ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Tant_ESR_Rig.JPG

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Tant_ESR_Scope.JPG

John

"The image “ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Tant_ESR_Rig.JPG” cannot be displayed
because it contains errors."

I thought you were getting a real web site? Can't you use flikr in the
mean time?

--
My liberal friends think I'm a conservative kook.
My conservative friends think I'm a liberal kook.
Why am I not happy that they have found common ground?

Tim Wescott, Communications, Control, Circuits & Software
http://www.wescottdesign.com

 

[Joerg]

Jon wrote:

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote in message
news:q4puh7puibkrbf5so4i6ngikalhldglb4a@4ax.com...
snip
Tantalum ESR tends to be in sort of a sweet spot for taming voltage
regulators, both switchers and linear.

Until they have exploded, that is
Tantalums can be very reliable, much better than aluminums. You just
have to handle them properly.

John


You don't always get to handle them before they explode John....
I had one double cap blow while I removed the lid of the computer.

A technician had literally all tantalums explode when powering up a
board. Luckily he wore eye protection. The company bought him a new
shirt

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

 

[Robert Macy]

On Jan 25, 9:48 am, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:53:17 +1100, "Phil Allison" <phi...@tpg.com.au
wrote:





"John Larkin"
"Phil Allison"

"Tim Williams is so full of shit "

Yes, suffice it to say, even though (dry slug) tantalums tend to
have
ESR
comparable to (higher grade) electrolytics, they are far, far
simpler:

** Their failure modes are many and failures far more common too.

If you keep dV/dT down, they are very reliable.

** Absolute crap.

As fucking usual,  Larkin has no idea of what he speaks and does not
give
a shit either.

I've used well over 100,000 tantalum caps in the last 6 years or so.
53,000 of 2.2u 20v alone. The only ones that failed were loaded
backwards or were on power rails that had high dV/dT available.

** So you have  NOT  seen the general failure rates with all brands of
tants
and across all types of equipment.

  You know no-one who has and do not give a shit either.

   Fuck off to hell  -   you rabid, septic psychopath.

I see very low failure rates in the equipmennt I design. I'm sure
there is badly designed gear that blows tantalum caps.

I'm not a repair tech, so I don't deal with a lot of equipment
designed by somebody else.

**  SO  SHUT  THE   FUCK   UP

-    YOU   BLOODY   IMBECILE   !!!!!!!

 .... Phil

I think your ESR tester doesn't work very well with low-uF parts.

John

Use your SoundCard and a little fussing and you can get down to
milliohms between the ranges of 1000Hz to 90kHz. Actually, 89kHz, but
can't get to 100kHz.

A little software and your Soundcard 24bit? running at 192kS/s dual
channel

 

[John Devereux]

Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> writes:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:21:25 -0800, John Larkin wrote:

[...]

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Tant_ESR_Rig.JPG

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Tant_ESR_Scope.JPG

John

"The image “ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Tant_ESR_Rig.JPG” cannot be displayed
because it contains errors."

I thought you were getting a real web site? Can't you use flikr in the
mean time?

It's fine, never had a problem with any of Johns FTP images.

Must be you!


--

John Devereux

 

[Dave Platt]

In article <87r4ynljb2.fsf@devereux.me.uk>,
John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk> wrote:

"The image “ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Tant_ESR_Rig.JPG” cannot be displayed
because it contains errors."

I thought you were getting a real web site? Can't you use flikr in the
mean time?

It's fine, never had a problem with any of Johns FTP images.

Both download and display fine for me, using Mozilla Firefox.

Possibly Tim is retrieving the files through a client which isn't
switching to "binary" mode before retrieving? Doing ASCII-file
newline/carriagereturn translation on a JPEG is very likely to
mangle it badly...

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 09:27:46 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy
<robert.a.macy@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jan 25, 9:48 am, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 16:53:17 +1100, "Phil Allison" <phi...@tpg.com.au
wrote:





"John Larkin"
"Phil Allison"

"Tim Williams is so full of shit "

Yes, suffice it to say, even though (dry slug) tantalums tend to
have
ESR
comparable to (higher grade) electrolytics, they are far, far
simpler:

** Their failure modes are many and failures far more common too.

If you keep dV/dT down, they are very reliable.

** Absolute crap.

As fucking usual,  Larkin has no idea of what he speaks and does not
give
a shit either.

I've used well over 100,000 tantalum caps in the last 6 years or so.
53,000 of 2.2u 20v alone. The only ones that failed were loaded
backwards or were on power rails that had high dV/dT available.

** So you have  NOT  seen the general failure rates with all brands of
tants
and across all types of equipment.

  You know no-one who has and do not give a shit either.

   Fuck off to hell  -   you rabid, septic psychopath.

I see very low failure rates in the equipmennt I design. I'm sure
there is badly designed gear that blows tantalum caps.

I'm not a repair tech, so I don't deal with a lot of equipment
designed by somebody else.

**  SO  SHUT  THE   FUCK   UP

-    YOU   BLOODY   IMBECILE   !!!!!!!

 .... Phil

I think your ESR tester doesn't work very well with low-uF parts.

John

Use your SoundCard and a little fussing and you can get down to
milliohms between the ranges of 1000Hz to 90kHz. Actually, 89kHz, but
can't get to 100kHz.

A little software and your Soundcard 24bit? running at 192kS/s dual
channel

The signal generator+scope thing I posted is simple. No software. And
it gives you the full time-domain current step response, down to
nanoseconds, which contains a lot of information. 90 KHz is slow for a
lot of applications.

John

 

[Fred Abse]

On Wed, 25 Jan 2012 11:35:08 -0600, Tim Wescott wrote:

"The image ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Tant_ESR_Rig.JPG cannot be displayed
because it contains errors."

Works fine for me, using wget and display.

--
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence
over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."
(Richard Feynman)

 

[David Eather]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 04:37:53 +1000, John Devereux <john@devereux.me.uk>
wrote:

Tim Wescott <tim@seemywebsite.com> writes:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:21:25 -0800, John Larkin wrote:


[...]



ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Tant_ESR_Rig.JPG

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Tant_ESR_Scope.JPG

John

"The image “ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Tant_ESR_Rig.JPG” cannot be displayed
because it contains errors."

I thought you were getting a real web site? Can't you use flikr in the
mean time?

It's fine, never had a problem with any of Johns FTP images.

Must be you!

I have had trouble and I have a very standard install. I'm on the wrong
computer to suggest the solution given to me.

 

[George Herold]

On Jan 24, 11:21 pm, John Larkin
<jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:59:47 -0800, John Larkin





jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:08:28 -0800, John Larkin
jjlar...@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:25:32 +1100, "Phil Allison" <phi...@tpg.com.au
wrote:

"Dishum"

I'm a hobbyist who doesn't have an ESR meter or (usually) a choice of
specific capacitor models and I'd like to have some idea of the kind of
ESR values one would expect from capacitors that are neither particularly
good nor particularly crappy in that respect. I'll really appreciate it if
you could cite some ballpark figures for -

1. 1uF/50V wet Al electrolytic
2. 100uF/25V wet Al electrolytic
3. 1000uF/50V wet Al electrolytic
4. 1uF/25V tantalum

** Measured from my parts bins:

1 =  3.1 ohms
2 =  0.5 ohms
3 =  0.06 ohms
4 =  4.2 ohms

In each case, the figure is for high frequency ESR or impedance at 100kHz.

ESR rises at low frequencies ( under 500Hz ) and falls with increasing
temperature.

Also, when an electro goes bad (ie dries out ) -  ESR rises first followed
much later by a reduction in actual uF.

...  Phil

That seems high for the tantalum. I seem to recall numbers like a
couple tenths of an ohm. I'll try a couple. I don't have an ESR meter,
but I can just apply a square wave from a 50 ohm generator and scope
the voltage.

Hmmm, both of the 1u caps have about the same ESR.

John

I tried a standard leaded gumdrop tantalum, 1 uF at 35 volts, and got
about 0.75 ohms.

22u 16v was about 0.35 ohms.

Tantalum ESR tends to be in sort of a sweet spot for taming voltage
regulators, both switchers and linear.

John

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Tant_ESR_Rig.JPG

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Tant_ESR_Scope.JPG

John- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nice trick. I slapped in a 10uF 35 V tant.

~80mV or 80mV/10 *50 =0.4 ohms.
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/545/tek0017.png/

lotsa ringing at the step...
What’s that about? Bad technique on my part?

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/40/tek0018.png/

George H.

 

[Jamie]

Tim Wescott wrote:

On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:21:25 -0800, John Larkin wrote:


On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 11:59:47 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:


On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 06:08:28 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:


On Tue, 24 Jan 2012 20:25:32 +1100, "Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au
wrote:



"Dishum"

I'm a hobbyist who doesn't have an ESR meter or (usually) a choice
of specific capacitor models and I'd like to have some idea of the
kind of ESR values one would expect from capacitors that are neither
particularly good nor particularly crappy in that respect. I'll
really appreciate it if you could cite some ballpark figures for -

1. 1uF/50V wet Al electrolytic
2. 100uF/25V wet Al electrolytic
3. 1000uF/50V wet Al electrolytic
4. 1uF/25V tantalum


** Measured from my parts bins:

1 = 3.1 ohms
2 = 0.5 ohms
3 = 0.06 ohms
4 = 4.2 ohms

In each case, the figure is for high frequency ESR or impedance at
100kHz.

ESR rises at low frequencies ( under 500Hz ) and falls with increasing
temperature.

Also, when an electro goes bad (ie dries out ) - ESR rises first
followed much later by a reduction in actual uF.



... Phil



That seems high for the tantalum. I seem to recall numbers like a
couple tenths of an ohm. I'll try a couple. I don't have an ESR meter,
but I can just apply a square wave from a 50 ohm generator and scope
the voltage.

Hmmm, both of the 1u caps have about the same ESR.

John





I tried a standard leaded gumdrop tantalum, 1 uF at 35 volts, and got
about 0.75 ohms.

22u 16v was about 0.35 ohms.

Tantalum ESR tends to be in sort of a sweet spot for taming voltage
regulators, both switchers and linear.

John


ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Tant_ESR_Rig.JPG

ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Tant_ESR_Scope.JPG

John


"The image “ftp://jjlarkin.lmi.net/Tant_ESR_Rig.JPG” cannot be displayed
because it contains errors."

I thought you were getting a real web site? Can't you use flikr in the
mean time?

works for me?

Jamie