Driver to drive?

Lostgallifreyan · Oct 28, 2011

Lostgallifreyan <no-one@nowhere.net> wrote in
news:Xns9F8CEC6F73B0Bzoodlewurdle@216.196.109.145:

more nonlinear even than the difference in proportion between
frequency and voltage

Meant: frequency and pitch. I also tried another 4046, and took out all extra
gubbins on the pin deck that might be intering with it. At this point,
hearing no change in this absurd result, I think I'll quit flogging a dead
horse and hope that Dieter Doepfer finishes and markets his A195 pitch to
MIDI device to solve this problem digitally. A PLL is no use to me if neither
the output waveform OR the voltage can be meaningfully converted to a
musically useful pitch. There may be ways round it (LM311 followed by a D
type flip-flop, but this is pointless, the aim was to keep the system simple
and that's clearly impossible now.

Jim Thompson · Oct 28, 2011

On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 17:14:33 -0500, Lostgallifreyan
<no-one@nowhere.net> wrote:

Lostgallifreyan <no-one@nowhere.net> wrote in
news:Xns9F8CA5BDE8E8Ezoodlewurdle@216.196.109.145:

My next task will be simpler though, a
MIDI to CV converter and a MIDI keyboard to play a few oscillators, 4046
VCO, LM311, etc... I think my ears will tell me soon enough what course
to take next.

Right now, I'm having a hard time knowing what the hell the VCO frequency IS
proportional to! With R1 at 47K, C1 at 10nF, I assumed that it was
proportional to voltage like damn near any VCO that wasn't designed to follow
the 1 volt per octave standard used for most musical synthesisers.

When I measure the voltage out of the MIDI to CV converter set to Hx per
volt, the output voltage scales up correctly, doubling per octave, so clearly
linear in proportion to frequency. The 4046 VCO isn't having any of it! Tones
a keyboard semitone apart at the top end are far less separated in frequency
than they are at the bottom end, and are actually MORE nonlinear than they
are if I try to feed a voltage of 1V per octave, i.e. proportional to pitch.
That obviously shouldn't work for a VCO that is supposed to be linear with
frequency, but hearing it become even worse when fed by the correct voltage
scaling makes no sense to me at all. The only thing that works as expected is
that the actual frequency is always the same for the same voltage.

To prove that the voltage really is ok, I fed it to an LM311 configged as a
voltage to frequency converter. The result was horrible as a musical
waveform, horrible in speed of response, but it DID track perfectly, I could
play fast scales on it that sounded like a rat-arsed little trumpet.

So as the 4046 VCO makes a clean square, and responds like a flea on crystal
meth, I REALLY need to know why it can't track a voltage that IS correctly
proportional to frequency. Again, this is no mere vague nonlinearity, it's
grotesque, more nonlinear even than the difference in proportion between
frequency and voltage.

Lostgallifreyan · Oct 29, 2011

Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
news:aedma7565hrus615dt91ko29tstju5c4po@4ax.com:

Only by rolling your own ;-)

Not possible. An industry has not managed this over decades, bar a few
amateur designs from whatever was cobbled together. Dieter Doepfer has
struggled with this problem in analog and digital domains, and he's a master
at this, one of the best electronic musioc hardware builders in history. His
best efforts are still on the back burner because he's not satisfied they
work well.

(Though I suspect mis-measurement on your part... the 4046 should be
essentially linear, frequency versus control voltage)

I tried two. I removed all but the VCO control voltage, and power supply, and
output to a mixer, one capacitor and one resistor. No matter what
combinations of resistor, capacitor, or 4046 (CMOS type, supposed to be the
MOST linear), I got the same absurd results!

The closest possible method with any chance of success, is a VERY linear VCO
(I already proved that the LM331 is at least that, if totally unsuitable on
its own otherwise) in the loop, but then I might as well use an XOR gate (or
apparently a 4 quadrant multiplier, as I read that's what's actually in a
4046, according to the AoE book).

Clearly this goes strihgt into the complex building of a PLL from discrete
parts, something mentioned in AoE as difficult and unreliable in general.

This isn't a Spice problem, it isn't even a PLL problem anymore (the only
remaining validity of the PLL is the lock indication as a way to determine
that the input signal is a viable pitch, thus enabling output. Even that
might be done better some other way.

All I'm left with is a Schmitt trigger cleanup as initial input process,
which I discovered independently of RA Penfold who also uses that. The idea
has been bombed back to the stone age and I think I'll leave it there, as far
better engineers than I'll ever be have also turned aside. I had a go. I'll
leave it at that.

Lostgallifreyan · Oct 29, 2011

Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
news:aedma7565hrus615dt91ko29tstju5c4po@4ax.com:

Only by rolling your own ;-)

(Though I suspect mis-measurement on your part... the 4046 should be
essentially linear, frequency versus control voltage)

As a last look I tried Googling for any hint of a different answer, and what
I found surprised me, a LOT!

http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-210.pdf#page=2

Check that file if you're still interested. If it's good enough for Bob Pease
it's damn well good enough for me. What is even better, he uses the same
idea I came up with, and as I'm no Bob Pease. That in itself means I must
have been on the right track. 4046, but NOT its own VCO. (Presumably it's
optimised for loop stability, and voltage linearity with frequency is
unimportant otherwise. And the graphs I saw for HEF4046B pretty much prove
this, though they didn't prepare me for the extremeity of error in practise).
Anyway, Bob Pease used the LM331 and a divider in a better way than I
proposed, but the basic idea is the same.

Even so if I ever do return to this, I'll hold out for a PLL whose VCO is
adequately linear in the first place. If PLL's really are as useful as I (and
apparently Bob Pease) thought they were for frequency to voltage conversion,
then I hope some firm out there is making a single chip for the task. I'm ok
both before and after that point.

Jim Thompson · Oct 29, 2011

On Fri, 28 Oct 2011 19:40:24 -0500, Lostgallifreyan
<no-one@nowhere.net> wrote:

Jim Thompson <To-Email-Use-The-Envelope-Icon@On-My-Web-Site.com> wrote in
news:aedma7565hrus615dt91ko29tstju5c4po@4ax.com:

Only by rolling your own ;-)

(Though I suspect mis-measurement on your part... the 4046 should be
essentially linear, frequency versus control voltage)

As a last look I tried Googling for any hint of a different answer, and what
I found surprised me, a LOT!

http://www.national.com/an/AN/AN-210.pdf#page=2

Check that file if you're still interested. If it's good enough for Bob Pease
it's damn well good enough for me.

Hacker is as hacker does.

A _much_ better arrangement for the PFD...

http://www.analog-innovations.com/SED/DualD-PFD.pdf

What is even better, he uses the same
idea I came up with, and as I'm no Bob Pease. That in itself means I must
have been on the right track. 4046, but NOT its own VCO. (Presumably it's
optimised for loop stability, and voltage linearity with frequency is
unimportant otherwise. And the graphs I saw for HEF4046B pretty much prove
this, though they didn't prepare me for the extremeity of error in practise).
Anyway, Bob Pease used the LM331 and a divider in a better way than I
proposed, but the basic idea is the same.

If you can't pencil the equations for yourself, you're a hacker ;-)

Even so if I ever do return to this, I'll hold out for a PLL whose VCO is
adequately linear in the first place. If PLL's really are as useful as I (and
apparently Bob Pease) thought they were for frequency to voltage conversion,
then I hope some firm out there is making a single chip for the task. I'm ok
both before and after that point.

whit3rd · Oct 29, 2011

On Thursday, October 27, 2011 9:22:05 AM UTC-7, Lostgallifreyan wrote:

The main problem seems to be that datasheets (and Spice) tend to emphasise
defined behaviour. If I'm after something most PLL makers don't consider
important, I'm S.O.L... but as there ARE soem more linear than others, and
linearity of VCO is important to me, I'd like to know anything I can

The linearity of the oscillator with respect to the voltage-on-input-terminal
is not as good as the linearity with respect to the current-through-monitor-
FET, so you will benefit from using an op amp.
Connect op amp output through resistor to "VCO in", (+) input comes from
your control voltage source, (-) input comes from resistor from 'Demodulator
out' to Vss (negative power supply).
Usually, the resistor on the demodulator out would be the
same value as the pullup on pin 11 ("R1" on my datasheet).

Nov 9, 2011

On Tue, 8 Nov 2011 21:07:44 -0800, DaveC <invalid@invalid.net> wrote:

Latest rev:

http://i40.tinypic.com/35m026h.jpg

What needs to be reference to the new "ground"? Everything between the
input
caps and output caps?

Pretty much... each of the op amps' noninverting inputs, and the
"bottom ends" of the potentiometers, as you have drawn them. *NOT*
the V- input to the op amp(s), of course.

You do mean each of the op amps' *inverting* inputs, yes?

I doubt that, positive feedback has no place in mixer circuits,
try google? This is not new, nor is it rocket science.

Grant.

You might want to add "pop preventer" resistors at the inputs and
outputs... say, 100k to DC ground, from the "outside" end of each of
the DC-blocking capacitors.

Is this what you mean (see link)?

Thanks.

SoothSayer · Nov 10, 2011

On Tue, 1 Nov 2011 12:42:12 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7
<Searcher7@mail.con2.com> wrote:

I need a rubber backing material for some low voltage electrical
contacts because there has to be a slight give when the contacts come
together, and I was hoping to get recommendations on what kind of
rubber to use. (The voltages will be in the order of +5, -5, +12. -12,
& +24).

I was looking at rubbers made for gaskets and I'm trying to decide
between Nitrile, Styrene Butadiene/Natural Rubber blend, and generic
cork rubber..

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Just find and buy some of the 1mm thick 3M VHB tape.

Most of what I could hunt up is foam, but I had some I got at the
grocery that was clear polymer with sticky on both sides. at 1 mm thick,
it would make a nice cushion for you.

Snag · Nov 16, 2011

John Doe wrote:

I just converted a Dremel 10.8 V rotary tool to use Bosch 10.8 V
batteries. I always have the rotary tool immediately in front of me,
so the battery will either be worn on a neck strap or be set down
near the work. The wires coming from the rotary tool plug into the
battery, using a socket taken from another Bosch tool.

Should I expect a problem using a Bosch 12 V MAX battery in the 10.8
V Dremel rotary tool? The speed dial on the rotary tool plainly says
"10.8 V". Included are two small pics of chips in the rotary tool.

Thanks.

Really ? I mean fuckin' *REALLY* ??!! Not only do you post a binary in a

*TEXT* *ONLY* newsgroup , but you have the gall to post in yenc . Don't you
know that no one uses yenc except geeks who're tryin' to be "cool" ? I don't
have a program to decode it , and have no desire to get one . Try one of the
photo hosting sites . There's a bunch of them out there and they're mostly
free .
--
Snag
Learning keeps
you young !

John Doe · Nov 16, 2011

"Snag" <snag_one comcast.net> wrote:

John Doe wrote:

I just converted a Dremel 10.8 V rotary tool to use Bosch 10.8
V batteries. I always have the rotary tool immediately in front
of me, so the battery will either be worn on a neck strap or be
set down near the work. The wires coming from the rotary tool
plug into the battery, using a socket taken from another Bosch
tool.

Should I expect a problem using a Bosch 12 V MAX battery in the
10.8 V Dremel rotary tool? The speed dial on the rotary tool
plainly says "10.8 V". Included are two small pics of chips in
the rotary tool.

Thanks.

Really ?

Yes.

I mean fuckin' *REALLY* ??!!

Fuck Yes.

Not only do you post a binary in a *TEXT* *ONLY* newsgroup ,

This is NOT a text only newsgroup, obviously.

but you have the gall to post in yenc .

This is a no-space-before-punctuation Newsgroup, buddy.

Don't you know that no one uses yenc except geeks who're tryin'
to be "cool" ? I don't have a program to decode it , and have no
desire to get one . Try one of the photo hosting sites . There's
a bunch of them out there and they're mostly free .

Putting spaces before punctuation should be illegal. It might
already be illegal. You are in deep trouble.

And next time, don't cross post.

Why the fuck are reading down here?

technomaNge · Nov 16, 2011

On 11/15/2011 06:49 PM, John Doe wrote:

"Snag"<snag_one comcast.net> wrote:

Not only do you post a binary in a *TEXT* *ONLY* newsgroup ,

This is NOT a text only newsgroup, obviously.

Perhaps sci.electronics.design is a binary group, I don't know.
But rec.crafts.metalworking is definitely a TEXT only group.

Please be more careful/better informed with your binary posts.

technomaNge
--
Because.

Michael A. Terrell · Nov 16, 2011

technomaNge wrote:

On 11/15/2011 06:49 PM, John Doe wrote:
"Snag"<snag_one comcast.net> wrote:

Not only do you post a binary in a *TEXT* *ONLY* newsgroup ,

This is NOT a text only newsgroup, obviously.

Perhaps sci.electronics.design is a binary group, I don't know.
But rec.crafts.metalworking is definitely a TEXT only group.

Sci.electronics.design is not a binary newsgroup.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

John Doe · Nov 16, 2011

"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell earthlink.net> wrote:

technomaNge wrote:
John Doe wrote:
"Snag"<snag_one comcast.net> wrote:

Not only do you post a binary in a *TEXT* *ONLY* newsgroup ,

This is NOT a text only newsgroup, obviously.

Perhaps sci.electronics.design is a binary group, I don't know.
But rec.crafts.metalworking is definitely a TEXT only group.

Sci.electronics.design is not a binary newsgroup.

Bullshit. I have a binary posting permit right here, for both
groups.

Searcher7 · Nov 17, 2011

On Nov 10, 1:53 am, SoothSayer <SaySo...@TheMonastery.org> wrote:

On Tue, 1 Nov 2011 12:42:12 -0700 (PDT), Searcher7

Search...@mail.con2.com> wrote:
I need a rubber backing material for some low voltage electrical
contacts because there has to be a slight give when the contacts come
together, and I was hoping to get recommendations on what kind of
rubber to use. (The voltages will be in the order of +5, -5, +12. -12,
& +24).

I was looking at rubbers made for gaskets and I'm trying to decide
between Nitrile, Styrene Butadiene/Natural Rubber blend, and generic
cork rubber..

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Just find and buy some of the 1mm thick 3M VHB tape.

Most of what I could hunt up is foam, but I had some I got at the
grocery that was clear polymer with sticky on both sides. at 1 mm thick,
it would make a nice cushion for you.

Ok, I'll look into that.

Thanks.

Darren Harris
Staten Island, New York.

Stormin Mormon · Nov 20, 2011

Very, very few, I'm sure.

--
Christopher A. Young (age 49 1/2; I'm ALMOST FIFTY!!!!)
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Fred Abse" <excretatauris@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news

an.2011.11.20.14.51.25.844761@invalid.invalid...

I suppose nobody under fifty knows how to read a real
vernier, or a slide
rule for that matter ;-(

--
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence
over public relations, for nature cannot be fooled."
(Richard Feynman)

John Doe · Nov 20, 2011

John Doe <jdoe usenetlove.invalid> wrote:

I just converted a Dremel 10.8 V rotary tool to use Bosch 10.8 V
batteries. I always have the rotary tool immediately in front of
me, so the battery will either be worn on a neck strap or be set
down near the work. The wires coming from the rotary tool plug
into the battery, using a socket taken from another Bosch tool.

It does rock, BTW, in case anybody wants to follow in my
footsteps. And I personally guarantee 100% satisfaction.

krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz · Nov 20, 2011

On 20 Nov 2011 18:43:41 GMT, John Doe <jdoe@usenetlove.invalid> wrote:

John Doe <jdoe usenetlove.invalid> wrote:

I just converted a Dremel 10.8 V rotary tool to use Bosch 10.8 V
batteries. I always have the rotary tool immediately in front of
me, so the battery will either be worn on a neck strap or be set
down near the work. The wires coming from the rotary tool plug
into the battery, using a socket taken from another Bosch tool.

It does rock, BTW, in case anybody wants to follow in my
footsteps. And I personally guarantee 100% satisfaction.

From the looks of the batteries, it'll take a substantial amount of hacked
plastic. I don't think I'm interested.

gregz · Nov 21, 2011

DaveC <invalid@invalid.net> wrote:

I'd like to add a simple op amp-based tone control circuit to my preamp for
desktop speakers & sub that I'm modifying from stock.

This is the simplest I found:

http://www.simplecircuitdiagram.com/2010/02/03/single-op-amp-tone-control/

(I have +/- supplies so I will be eliminating all coupling caps and changing
Vcc/2 to ground.)

What are the positives and negatives to this design?

Better circuit (yet simple)?

Thanks.

Speakers with decent low and high response start getting sloppy pretty
fast. The boost is too close to the 1khz set point. Start getting too much
upper bass too fast as well as boosting the 2-3 kHz (hurt my ears point).
You need to boost bass below 100 hz and treble above 5 kHz. I think the
values can be changed to get options.

Greg

John Doe · Nov 21, 2011

"krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" <krw att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

John Doe <jdoe usenetlove.invalid> wrote:

I just converted a Dremel 10.8 V rotary tool to use Bosch 10.8 V
batteries. I always have the rotary tool immediately in front of
me, so the battery will either be worn on a neck strap or be set
down near the work. The wires coming from the rotary tool plug
into the battery, using a socket taken from another Bosch tool.
and after a few days of use
It does rock, BTW, in case anybody wants to follow in my
footsteps. And I personally guarantee 100% satisfaction.

From the looks of the batteries, it'll take a substantial amount
of hacked plastic.

Agreed, so I worked around that.
--

> I don't think I'm interested.

krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz · Nov 22, 2011

On 21 Nov 2011 23:47:30 GMT, John Doe <jdoe@usenetlove.invalid> wrote:

"krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz" <krw att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:

John Doe <jdoe usenetlove.invalid> wrote:

I just converted a Dremel 10.8 V rotary tool to use Bosch 10.8 V
batteries. I always have the rotary tool immediately in front of
me, so the battery will either be worn on a neck strap or be set
down near the work. The wires coming from the rotary tool plug
into the battery, using a socket taken from another Bosch tool.
and after a few days of use
It does rock, BTW, in case anybody wants to follow in my
footsteps. And I personally guarantee 100% satisfaction.

From the looks of the batteries, it'll take a substantial amount
of hacked plastic.

Agreed, so I worked around that.

How? (I guess you really want someone to beg)

Driver to drive?

Lostgallifreyan

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Jim Thompson

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Lostgallifreyan

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Lostgallifreyan

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Jim Thompson

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whit3rd

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SoothSayer

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Snag

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John Doe

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technomaNge

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Michael A. Terrell

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John Doe

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Searcher7

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Stormin Mormon

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John Doe

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krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz

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gregz

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John Doe

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krw@att.bizzzzzzzzzzzz

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