Can I sell privately kits which I build myself?

Hello all,
This is a legal problem. I want to sell a power supply which I have
build myself. It works very nicely and I want to sell it to someone
privately (on ebay). Usually items which are connected to the mains
have some warning on them (such as "don't open the cover because
you may get a shock" or to this effect). But since I built it myself
there is no such warning. So the questions are I suppose, am I allowed
to just sell something like that or do I need some sort of permission,
and also if I am allowed, would I be responsible if my instrument
becomes faulty and for example causes some hazard?
Thanks.

 

[Michael Drainer]

Just sell it as is no warranty or guarantee. Use at your own risk......

This will set forth the condition of the sale.


<lawyer> wrote in message news:bf69pm02g0a@enews3.newsguy.com...

Hello all,
This is a legal problem. I want to sell a power supply which I have
build myself. It works very nicely and I want to sell it to someone
privately (on ebay). Usually items which are connected to the mains
have some warning on them (such as "don't open the cover because
you may get a shock" or to this effect). But since I built it myself
there is no such warning. So the questions are I suppose, am I allowed
to just sell something like that or do I need some sort of permission,
and also if I am allowed, would I be responsible if my instrument
becomes faulty and for example causes some hazard?
Thanks.

 

[AC/DCdude17]

X-No-Archive: Yes

If you commercialize something that connects to AC power that doesn't have
a UL approval, then you can be held liable.



lawyer wrote:

Hello all,
This is a legal problem. I want to sell a power supply which I have
build myself. It works very nicely and I want to sell it to someone
privately (on ebay). Usually items which are connected to the mains
have some warning on them (such as "don't open the cover because
you may get a shock" or to this effect). But since I built it myself
there is no such warning. So the questions are I suppose, am I allowed
to just sell something like that or do I need some sort of permission,
and also if I am allowed, would I be responsible if my instrument
becomes faulty and for example causes some hazard?
Thanks.

 

And if it runs on batteries, I should be fine?

"AC/DCdude17" <JerC@prontoREMOVETHISmail.com> wrote in message news:3F170254.C85FCD92@prontoREMOVETHISmail.com...

X-No-Archive: Yes

If you commercialize something that connects to AC power that doesn't have
a UL approval, then you can be held liable.



lawyer wrote:

Hello all,
This is a legal problem. I want to sell a power supply which I have
build myself. It works very nicely and I want to sell it to someone
privately (on ebay). Usually items which are connected to the mains
have some warning on them (such as "don't open the cover because
you may get a shock" or to this effect). But since I built it myself
there is no such warning. So the questions are I suppose, am I allowed
to just sell something like that or do I need some sort of permission,
and also if I am allowed, would I be responsible if my instrument
becomes faulty and for example causes some hazard?
Thanks.

 

[Roger Johansson]

<poiu> wrote:

This is a legal problem. I want to sell a power supply which I have
build myself. It works very nicely and I want to sell it to someone
privately (on ebay).

Make it non-functionable, by cutting off the mains cable, for example.

Tell the buyer that for legal reasons you cannot sell it in working
order, he will have to fix it himself.

Then he will be responsible, not you.


--
Roger J.

 

Thanks for all the replies. No one really expanded much.
Are there any sites with links regarding this issue, where
can I find more stuff?

"Roy McCammon" <rbmccammon@mmm.com> wrote in message news:3F1724FE.2020209@mmm.com...

AC/DCdude17 wrote:
X-No-Archive: Yes

If you commercialize something that connects to AC power that doesn't have
a UL approval, then you can be held liable.


if you sell it, you are liable. period.




--
local optimization seldom leads to global optimization

my e-mail address is: rb <my last name> AT ieee DOT org

 

[Terry King]

Any <lawyer> can tell you that anyone CAN sue you for
anything. I'd be concerned about selling a high voltage
power supply to a 13 year old kid. I'd not be concerned about
selling an audio amplifier with +- 45 volt supplies to
an adult.

A friend sold an old truck with known bad brakes to a kid,
but insisted the PARENTS buy it 'knowing it's condition'
on the bill of sale.

--
Regards, Terry King ...In The Woods In Vermont
terry@fredking.us
The one who Dies With The Most Parts LOSES!! What do you need?

 

[Dan Fraser]

Generally if you sell it as a kit, you are off the hook if ALL primary
parts are UL approved. However, if two parts are connected or if you
supply a printed circuit you could be held liable.

Can you offer people such a deal compared to buying a power supply from
current sources to bother? Is it that special?

If you want UL approval, it will cost about $4,000 and the product has
to be assembled. Kits are a gray area.

I got away with it by stating kits are for professional use only and if
you're not a pro, don't buy it. Mind you this probably cost me so many
sales that is why I'm not in that business anymore.

I found that kit buyers are usually too stupid to build it right unless
you have a Heathkit grade of manual. The bright potential buyers ,like
me, figure we can do a better one for less anyway.

Unless you are making thousands of kits, your price on parts won't be
enough lower than what Digi-Key sells them for that there won't be
enough profit to bother. Note that I can buy a +/-12V 1A switching power
supply from Mouser for under $25.00, assembled, tested and U/L
certified.

--
Dan Fraser

From Costa Mesa in sunny California

Check out my electronic schematics site at:
http://www.schematicsforfree.com
If you are into cars check out www.roadsters.com

 

Let me start by saying that I am not a lawyer, I wish I was, but no I am
not as some poster suggested because of my name. Thanks for your
input. I have entered some question within the text.

"Dan Fraser" <dmfraser@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:3F18E710.61931962@sbcglobal.net...

Generally if you sell it as a kit, you are off the hook if ALL primary
parts are UL approved. However, if two parts are connected or if you
supply a printed circuit you could be held liable.

What is UL, is it some American organisation. Here in the UK we have BS
standards (British standars)

Can you offer people such a deal compared to buying a power supply from
current sources to bother? Is it that special?

Well, I thought if I got the parts by myself and assembled everything, I could
offer it for a bit less on ebay as a private sell. There is a margin for profit,
though if I calculate the time to solder all the componenets and fit everything
in place, and do some testing, then it will be money earned the hard way,
but at least it will by *my* business.

If you want UL approval, it will cost about $4,000 and the product has
to be assembled. Kits are a gray area.

I will not be offering it as a kit. It will be built from scratch by me.
Are you saying that if I build a power supply, or any other electronic
devise, from a kit, or from basic principles, I am not allowed to sell
it to someone else without UL approval ? Even privately ?

I got away with it by stating kits are for professional use only and if
you're not a pro, don't buy it. Mind you this probably cost me so many
sales that is why I'm not in that business anymore.

I found that kit buyers are usually too stupid to build it right unless
you have a Heathkit grade of manual. The bright potential buyers ,like
me, figure we can do a better one for less anyway.

Unless you are making thousands of kits, your price on parts won't be
enough lower than what Digi-Key sells them for that there won't be
enough profit to bother. Note that I can buy a +/-12V 1A switching power
supply from Mouser for under $25.00, assembled, tested and U/L
certified.

--
Dan Fraser

From Costa Mesa in sunny California

Check out my electronic schematics site at:
http://www.schematicsforfree.com
If you are into cars check out www.roadsters.com

 

[Neil]

<lawyer> wrote in message news:bfb1qi0259s@enews1.newsguy.com...

Let me start by saying that I am not a lawyer, I wish I was, but no I am
not as some poster suggested because of my name. Thanks for your
input. I have entered some question within the text.

"Dan Fraser" <dmfraser@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:3F18E710.61931962@sbcglobal.net...
Generally if you sell it as a kit, you are off the hook if ALL primary
parts are UL approved. However, if two parts are connected or if you
supply a printed circuit you could be held liable.

What is UL, is it some American organisation. Here in the UK we have BS
standards (British standars)
I believe it is "Underwriters Limited"(?) which is/was an insurance based

system to certify that things wouldn't catch fire, based in US. If you are
only selling in UK then it won't apply. But CE marking does, and that's an
interesting can of worms.

If you want UL approval, it will cost about $4,000 and the product has
to be assembled. Kits are a gray area.

I will not be offering it as a kit. It will be built from scratch by me.
Are you saying that if I build a power supply, or any other electronic
devise, from a kit, or from basic principles, I am not allowed to sell
it to someone else without UL approval ? Even privately ?

If it's UK, then you are less likely to be sued than in US, but you still

need to protect yourself.
Perhaps "Public Liability Insurance" is what you need. Do you know any
self-employed people - builders, plumbers, or small electronics-assembly /
subcontract-manufacture companies etc. to talk to about what they pay out
for ? A small company might even act as an intermediary for you for a
percentage rake-off.
I'm told that the banks are quite helpful - if they think there's a profit
for them involved !
Or Citizens Advice Bureau .... 'starting a small business' ... ?
Brush up on the CE marking requirements. You can pay loads of dosh to get a
certificate, or you can just mark it and hope. Somewhere in the middle
there might be a workable position.
Asume that the customer is a spiteful clumsy idiot !

No doubt you can help yourself by getting the buyer to sign a form saying
that the units are 'bought as seen' - seems to work with cars, but you'd
need a technical file (for CE marking) to prove that you took all reasonable
care to not cause injury to the customer. I think it's down to what a jury
would decide when asked whose fault it was - although the law is often an
ass led by lawyers.
hth
Neil

 

"N. Thornton" <bigcat@meeow.co.uk> wrote in message news:a7076635.0307190715.5125d744@posting.google.com...

Hi

Perhaps "Public Liability Insurance" is what you need.

That would be very wise in principle, but worthless in practice. Once
your insurer sees your lack of the necessary safety knowledge they'll
refuse to back you in the event of a claim. Of course they will only
make this assessment when a claim turns up, that way they get to take
the premiums anyway.

And what would be "the necessary safety knowledge"

for ? A small company might even act as an intermediary for you for a
percentage rake-off.

Absolutely no chance. No sane person would do that on a mains powered
product produced by someone with no safety knowledge. If anyone does
offer you that, stay well away from them.


No doubt you can help yourself by getting the buyer to sign a form saying
that the units are 'bought as seen'

that would mean you get about a fifth the sale price, if that.


If I were you I'd start by doing kits that could be powered by ready
bought wall warts, then youre virtually off the hook. To make and sell
mains stuff with no knowledge of safety issues doesn't seem too smart.


Regards, NT

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Neil wrote:

lawyer> wrote in message news:bfb1qi0259s@enews1.newsguy.com...
Let me start by saying that I am not a lawyer, I wish I was, but no I am
not as some poster suggested because of my name. Thanks for your
input. I have entered some question within the text.

"Dan Fraser" <dmfraser@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:3F18E710.61931962@sbcglobal.net...
Generally if you sell it as a kit, you are off the hook if ALL primary
parts are UL approved. However, if two parts are connected or if you
supply a printed circuit you could be held liable.

What is UL, is it some American organisation. Here in the UK we have BS
standards (British standars)
I believe it is "Underwriters Limited"(?)

Neil

Its Underwriters Laboratories Inc. and their website is at:
http://www.ul.com/
--


Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[Roger Johansson]

<lawyer> wrote:

Thanks for all the replies. No one really expanded much.

If you sell a device made by Sony, then Sony is still the company whch
made the device. If somebody gets hurt Sony can be sued and their
insurance company will have to pay.

The person or company that made the device can be held liable.

But you could have bought a surplus power supply in a non-working
condition, and made it workable, by putting it in a box and adding
some mains wiring. Then _you_ are the equipment maker, because you
were the one who made it into a mains connected working device.
The original maker of the surplus power supply is no longer liable.

So you can get rid of responsibility by cutting off the power cord
very close to the device, so it cannot be put into working order
without opening the device and replacing the mains cable.

Then the one who did that is liable and not you.

Explain this to the buyer and you are free from responsibility.
He is the one who installed the last part of mains wiring and made it
into a working device again.

I have heard discussion on this issue before and that is the view I
have got of it.
I have also bought a lot of surplus equipment, and very often has the
power cord been cut off, so I think more people have the same view.


--
Roger J.

 

[Roy McCammon]

Roger Johansson wrote:

lawyer> wrote:


Thanks for all the replies. No one really expanded much.


If you sell a device made by Sony, then Sony is still the company whch
made the device. If somebody gets hurt Sony can be sued and their
insurance company will have to pay.

The person or company that made the device can be held liable.

in the US, every one in the chain from the point
the defect was introduced to the person injured
is liable. Of course, lawyers go for the party
with the deep pockets, but everybody in the
chain is often sued also.


--
Achilles: I wish my wish would not be granted.
< an undescribable event occurs >
Achilles: What happened? Where's my Genie?
Tortoise: Our context got restored incorrectly.
Achilles: What does that cryptic comment mean?
Tortoise: The system crashed.


To email me send to :

rb <my last name> AT ieee DOT org

 

[Roy McCammon]

Neil wrote:

I believe it is "Underwriters Limited"(?) which is/was an insurance based
system to certify that things wouldn't catch fire, based in US.

UL is not insurance. It is a non-profit private
organization that creates safety (and other) standards.
Some jurisdictions require UL registration for
certain products.

For a small fee, UL will sell the written standard.
For a much bigger fee they will test your product
for compliance.
For a still bigger fee you can become registered
which among other things means that you pay them
every year to come inspect your factory (maybe more
often, maybe less).

Designing for compliance with the standards is a
real good idea, but the payoff isn't there (usually)
for small volume low cost products.

--
Achilles: I wish my wish would not be granted.
< an undescribable event occurs >
Achilles: What happened? Where's my Genie?
Tortoise: Our context got restored incorrectly.
Achilles: What does that cryptic comment mean?
Tortoise: The system crashed.


To email me send to :

rb <my last name> AT ieee DOT org

 

[Roy McCammon]

Dan Fraser wrote:

Generally if you sell it as a kit, you are off the hook if ALL primary
parts are UL approved.

in the US, you are never off the hook for compensatory
damages (medical bills, rehabilitation), however, if
negligence is involved you are also liable for punitive
damages which can be much higher. Compliance with known
safety standards can often protect you from punitive
damages.


--
Achilles: I wish my wish would not be granted.
< an undescribable event occurs >
Achilles: What happened? Where's my Genie?
Tortoise: Our context got restored incorrectly.
Achilles: What does that cryptic comment mean?
Tortoise: The system crashed.


To email me send to :

rb <my last name> AT ieee DOT org

 

[DarkMatter]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 06:41:14 GMT, Dan Fraser <dmfraser@sbcglobal.net>
Gave us:

Generally if you sell it as a kit, you are off the hook if ALL primary
parts are UL approved. However, if two parts are connected or if you
supply a printed circuit you could be held liable.

Can you offer people such a deal compared to buying a power supply from
current sources to bother? Is it that special?

If you want UL approval, it will cost about $4,000 and the product has
to be assembled. Kits are a gray area.

I got away with it by stating kits are for professional use only and if
you're not a pro, don't buy it. Mind you this probably cost me so many
sales that is why I'm not in that business anymore.

I found that kit buyers are usually too stupid to build it right unless
you have a Heathkit grade of manual. The bright potential buyers ,like
me, figure we can do a better one for less anyway.

Unless you are making thousands of kits, your price on parts won't be
enough lower than what Digi-Key sells them for that there won't be
enough profit to bother. Note that I can buy a +/-12V 1A switching power
supply from Mouser for under $25.00, assembled, tested and U/L
certified.

One can jump on e-bay and buy air ionizer KITS that are NOT UL
anything, and it IS STILL buy and use at you own risk. This IS STILL
an accepted and practiced thing in this country. All the guy has to
do is declare it as being the operator's sole responsibility for use
of the device BEFORE making the sale. Hell, you can buy a tesla coil
that is pretty big on e-bay. They aren't UL anything either.

Plenty of HV supplies there as well. Many home built. Ham gear...
yada yada yada.. gobs of stuff.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 10:08:46 +0100, <lawyer> Gave us:

What is UL, is it some American organisation. Here in the UK we have BS
standards (British standars)

For electronic devices, I thought you guys used CE.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Sat, 19 Jul 2003 11:18:52 +0100, "Neil" <fredd133@hotmail.com> Gave
us:

I believe it is "Underwriters Limited"(?) which is/was an insurance based
system to certify that things wouldn't catch fire, based in US.

Pretty sure that it's "Underwriter's Laboratories". Yes, it was and
is about fire safety.

 

[DarkMatter]

On 19 Jul 2003 08:15:06 -0700, bigcat@meeow.co.uk (N. Thornton) Gave
us:

If I were you I'd start by doing kits that could be powered by ready
bought wall warts, then youre virtually off the hook. To make and sell
mains stuff with no knowledge of safety issues doesn't seem too smart.

All ya have to do is make the device, and then place an open frame,

approved power supply into it. Next to no makers of low DC voltage
supplied consumer products makes their own supply sections. They
leave it to the folks that do nothing but supplies. There are many
that do perform their own design, but many do not.

Now, if you would only pay decent money for them! :]