can digital get picture if analog TV is weak?

On Aug 7, 12:46 pm, "bassett" <bass...@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote:

I don't think you have idea, just how digital works. With digital
you get a picture or you don't. it's that simple. No snow, no noise,
etc.

This much is correct.

also there is no need for a mast head amp, EVER. regardless
of what your installer might tell you.

Total rubbish. In a marginal area a GOOD low noise amplifier at the
Antenna
will give better reception as with any other form of transmission
system.
It must have a very low noise figure and enough gain to make up for
any
feedline loss and splitter losses between the antenna and the
receiver.
Lots of gain is not better but an amplifier can make an otherwise
unreceivable
signal watchable. There is a requirement that there be a carrier to
noise
ratio of at least 19+ dB at the antenna to receive DVB COFDM
transmissions
with a 23Mb/s data rate.

bassett also wrote....

Digital works with a multi-layer of signals, once the signal is
transmitted , it's picked up by the forward error correction, [FEC]
in the receiver and the best signals are selected and sent to the
tuner Most common configuration is 3/4. From the four signals
sent it selects three, If it can't find three it simply shuts
down . You might get some pixallation in heavy rain, this happens
simply because for a few millie-seconds it can't access the signal
requirements, If it continues it simply shuts down, until it can
work as it should.

This is the most hysterically funny explanation of how digital works
that I
have ever seen. It just proves how clueless bassett is about things
digital.

Firstly there are not 4 layers of anything transmitted. The
transmitted
signal used for terrestrial transmission in Australian standard
digital
consists of either 2K (some 1700 carriers) or 8K (some 6000 carriers)
in quadrature each modulated with 64 QAM (Quadrature Amplitude
Modulation) giving a stream data rate of 23.052768 Mbits/S with our
normal FEC and guard interval.
The use of FEC is a method of transmitting extra bits with the wanted
stream MPEG data to make it more rugged.
The FEC is not in the receiver it's transmitted as extra data bits in
the
stream that allow reconstruction of damaged packets in the receiver.
What 3/4 FEC means is that for every 3 actual bits of data an extra
bit
is transmitted as FEC. In other words for every wanted 3 bits of
information
4 are transmitted. NOT 4 signals only one with extra information.

Small corruptions of the stream data will not cause pixellation as
the
FEC allows the damage to the data to be corrected and no visible
degradation is seen. If the data is corrupted more than the FEC being
transmitted is capable of correcting then either pixellation will
occur
or the decoding will fail.

If high values of FEC are transmitted such as 1/2 where every bit in
the stream is transmitted twice there is obviously more correction
available but at the penalty of loss of wanted data rate.

In particular on satellite transmissions FEC values of 1/2, 2/3 or 3/4
are
usually used especially 1/2 or 2/3 where small dishes are being
used for reception.

The more robust forms of FEC are not generally used in terrestrial
digital transmissions as there is a need for the highest possible
data rate to be able to transmit HD and SD at once in the same stream.

 

[bassett]

<100246.2055@compuserve.com> wrote in message
news:1186482829.767543.102940@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 7, 12:46 pm, "bassett" <bass...@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote:

I don't think you have idea, just how digital works. With
digital
you get a picture or you don't. it's that simple. No snow, no
noise,
etc.

This much is correct.

also there is no need for a mast head amp, EVER. regardless
of what your installer might tell you.

Total rubbish. In a marginal area a GOOD low noise amplifier at the
Antenna
will give better reception as with any other form of transmission
system.
It must have a very low noise figure and enough gain to make up for
any
feedline loss and splitter losses between the antenna and the
receiver.
Lots of gain is not better but an amplifier can make an otherwise
unreceivable
signal watchable. There is a requirement that there be a carrier to
noise
ratio of at least 19+ dB at the antenna to receive DVB COFDM
transmissions
with a 23Mb/s data rate.

bassett also wrote....

Digital works with a multi-layer of signals, once the signal is
transmitted , it's picked up by the forward error correction, [FEC]
in the receiver and the best signals are selected and sent to the
tuner Most common configuration is 3/4. From the four signals
sent it selects three, If it can't find three it simply shuts
down . You might get some pixallation in heavy rain, this
happens
simply because for a few millie-seconds it can't access the
signal
requirements, If it continues it simply shuts down, until it can
work as it should.


This is the most hysterically funny explanation of how digital works
that I
have ever seen. It just proves how clueless bassett is about things
digital.

Firstly there are not 4 layers of anything transmitted. The
transmitted
signal used for terrestrial transmission in Australian standard
digital
consists of either 2K (some 1700 carriers) or 8K (some 6000 carriers)
in quadrature each modulated with 64 QAM (Quadrature Amplitude
Modulation) giving a stream data rate of 23.052768 Mbits/S with our
normal FEC and guard interval.
The use of FEC is a method of transmitting extra bits with the wanted
stream MPEG data to make it more rugged.
The FEC is not in the receiver it's transmitted as extra data bits in
the
stream that allow reconstruction of damaged packets in the receiver.
What 3/4 FEC means is that for every 3 actual bits of data an extra
bit
is transmitted as FEC. In other words for every wanted 3 bits of
information
4 are transmitted. NOT 4 signals only one with extra information.

Small corruptions of the stream data will not cause pixellation as
the
FEC allows the damage to the data to be corrected and no visible
degradation is seen. If the data is corrupted more than the FEC being
transmitted is capable of correcting then either pixellation will
occur
or the decoding will fail.

If high values of FEC are transmitted such as 1/2 where every bit in
the stream is transmitted twice there is obviously more correction
available but at the penalty of loss of wanted data rate.

In particular on satellite transmissions FEC values of 1/2, 2/3 or 3/4
are
usually used especially 1/2 or 2/3 where small dishes are being
used for reception.

The more robust forms of FEC are not generally used in terrestrial
digital transmissions as there is a need for the highest possible
data rate to be able to transmit HD and SD at once in the same stream.

Whatever,,
But it strange that all the experts are having trouble and all the
dickheads have perfect reception.
bassett

 

[keithr]

bassett wrote:

While I will agree with you in part about high gain antenna's it's
still controlled by FEC, and this also makes masthead amps
obsolete.

Many people who had a high gain antenna, for analogue systems,
retained that antenna, and in 99 cases out of a 100, it does the
job.
And some people will tell you, that it's imposable to have a "too"
strong signal, it's also arguable , that modern Tuners are self
regulating in that regard.. BUT unlike analogue, we have "Forward
Error Correction " which examens the signal long before it reaches
the
Tuner, Would you not agree.

Maybe something has escaped me here, but I was under the distinct impression
that the FEC operated on the data stream, implying the demodulated signal.
That being so, how can it be "examine the signal long before it reaches the
tuner"? So no I would not agree.

 

[keithr]

Hi John, long time no see. Not since the old avtech days.

 

[Sunny]

"bassett" <bassett@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote in message
news:46b964a5$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

Whatever,,
But it strange that all the experts are having trouble and all the
dickheads have perfect reception.

May be on to something there
I have an old antenna that has been in use for 15 years, with a couple of
TVs.
(roof mounted, and I am approx 15 Kms from Mt Cootha TV towers)
Bought a 101cm Samsung LCD two months ago, and set it to auto tune in the
stations, the tuner "failed" to select any analogue stations, but then
searched in digital mode and tuned in all the stations with excellent
reception.
I also have foxtel, so no problems here
btw, the Samsung is great.

 

[Mr.T]

"bassett" <bassett@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote in message
news:46b964a5$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

Whatever,,
But it strange that all the experts are having trouble and all the
dickheads have perfect reception.

At least you now realise you are a dickhead. Anyone can get lucky, but there
is no evidence that "all" the other dickheads have perfect reception.

MrT.

 

On Aug 8, 3:20 pm, "bassett" <bass...@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote:

100246.2...@compuserve.com> wrote in message

news:1186482829.767543.102940@m37g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 7, 12:46 pm, "bassett" <bass...@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote:

I don't think you have idea, just how digital works. With
digital
you get a picture or you don't. it's that simple. No snow, no
noise,
etc.

This much is correct.

also there is no need for a mast head amp, EVER. regardless
of what your installer might tell you.

Total rubbish. In a marginal area a GOOD low noise amplifier at the
Antenna
will give better reception as with any other form of transmission
system.
It must have a very low noise figure and enough gain to make up for
any
feedline loss and splitter losses between the antenna and the
receiver.
Lots of gain is not better but an amplifier can make an otherwise
unreceivable
signal watchable. There is a requirement that there be a carrier to
noise
ratio of at least 19+ dB at the antenna to receive DVB COFDM
transmissions
with a 23Mb/s data rate.

bassett also wrote....

Digital works with a multi-layer of signals, once the signal is
transmitted , it's picked up by the forward error correction, [FEC]
in the receiver and the best signals are selected and sent to the
tuner Most common configuration is 3/4. From the four signals
sent it selects three, If it can't find three it simply shuts
down . You might get some pixallation in heavy rain, this
happens
simply because for a few millie-seconds it can't access the
signal
requirements, If it continues it simply shuts down, until it can
work as it should.

This is the most hysterically funny explanation of how digital works
that I
have ever seen. It just proves how clueless bassett is about things
digital.

Firstly there are not 4 layers of anything transmitted. The
transmitted
signal used for terrestrial transmission in Australian standard
digital
consists of either 2K (some 1700 carriers) or 8K (some 6000 carriers)
in quadrature each modulated with 64 QAM (Quadrature Amplitude
Modulation) giving a stream data rate of 23.052768 Mbits/S with our
normal FEC and guard interval.
The use of FEC is a method of transmitting extra bits with the wanted
stream MPEG data to make it more rugged.
The FEC is not in the receiver it's transmitted as extra data bits in
the
stream that allow reconstruction of damaged packets in the receiver.
What 3/4 FEC means is that for every 3 actual bits of data an extra
bit
is transmitted as FEC. In other words for every wanted 3 bits of
information
4 are transmitted. NOT 4 signals only one with extra information.

Small corruptions of the stream data will not cause pixellation as
the
FEC allows the damage to the data to be corrected and no visible
degradation is seen. If the data is corrupted more than the FEC being
transmitted is capable of correcting then either pixellation will
occur
or the decoding will fail.

If high values of FEC are transmitted such as 1/2 where every bit in
the stream is transmitted twice there is obviously more correction
available but at the penalty of loss of wanted data rate.

In particular on satellite transmissions FEC values of 1/2, 2/3 or 3/4
are
usually used especially 1/2 or 2/3 where small dishes are being
used for reception.

The more robust forms of FEC are not generally used in terrestrial
digital transmissions as there is a need for the highest possible
data rate to be able to transmit HD and SD at once in the same stream.

Whatever,,
But it strange that all the experts are having trouble and all the
dickheads have perfect reception.
bassett

I think it's more of a "Dont confuse me with the facts.. my minds made
up"
situation Bassett!

 

[Phil Allison]

"bassett"

Whatever,,
But it strange that all the experts are having trouble and all the
dickheads have perfect reception.

** Peeeeeeuuuuuueeeeeeeee !!!

" bassett " just did a very smelly fart ........

Outside, doggy - outside right now .....




........ Phil

 

[a t e c 7 7]

Mr.T wrote:

"bassett" <bassett@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote in message
news:46b964a5$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
Whatever,,
But it strange that all the experts are having trouble and all the
dickheads have perfect reception.

At least you now realise you are a dickhead. Anyone can get lucky, but there
is no evidence that "all" the other dickheads have perfect reception.

MrT.


There is and lots of it but it is anecdotal

 

[Mr.T]

"a t e c 7 7" <"atec 77 at hotmail dot com"> wrote in message
news:46b99d58$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

Whatever,,
But it strange that all the experts are having trouble and all
the
dickheads have perfect reception.

At least you now realise you are a dickhead. Anyone can get lucky, but
there
is no evidence that "all" the other dickheads have perfect reception.

There is and lots of it but it is anecdotal

I fail to see how any unspecified anecdotes can prove ALL dickheads have
perfect reception, but I will accept you have just provided one example at
least.

MrT.

 

[a t e c 7 7]

Mr.T wrote:

"a t e c 7 7" <"atec 77 at hotmail dot com"> wrote in message
news:46b99d58$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
Whatever,,
But it strange that all the experts are having trouble and all
the
dickheads have perfect reception.
At least you now realise you are a dickhead. Anyone can get lucky, but
there
is no evidence that "all" the other dickheads have perfect reception.

There is and lots of it but it is anecdotal

I fail to see how any unspecified anecdotes can prove ALL dickheads have
perfect reception, but I will accept you have just provided one example at
least.

MrT.


trying to make a funny point again I see T , and failing

 

[bassett]

"Sunny" <wombatlodge@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4Ceui.17079$4A1.8611@news-server.bigpond.net.au...

"bassett" <bassett@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote in message
news:46b964a5$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
Whatever,,
But it strange that all the experts are having trouble and all the
dickheads have perfect reception.

May be on to something there
I have an old antenna that has been in use for 15 years, with a couple of
TVs.
(roof mounted, and I am approx 15 Kms from Mt Cootha TV towers)
Bought a 101cm Samsung LCD two months ago, and set it to auto tune in the
stations, the tuner "failed" to select any analogue stations, but then
searched in digital mode and tuned in all the stations with excellent
reception.
I also have foxtel, so no problems here
btw, the Samsung is great.

So, we could say that your 15 year old antenna, is a digital only
antenna, seeing as it failed to tune any analogue signals.

Now all the experts will tell you that, the Tuner was digital, so why
would it tune analogue. but the facts are the facts, and your
watching your Samsung, and as you say there good shit.
Well done,

And by the by, our know-all mate, with the digital antenna link,
I suggest you check out the Strathfield catalogue, [back page] It
shows the dead spit of your 32 element UHF / VHF antenna.
$59.95. No talk about it being digital AT ALL

bassett

 

[bassett]

"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
news:46babc33$0$19339$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

"a t e c 7 7" <"atec 77 at hotmail dot com"> wrote in message
news:46b99d58$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
Whatever,,
But it strange that all the experts are having trouble and all
the
dickheads have perfect reception.

At least you now realise you are a dickhead. Anyone can get lucky, but
there
is no evidence that "all" the other dickheads have perfect reception.

There is and lots of it but it is anecdotal

I fail to see how any unspecified anecdotes can prove ALL dickheads have
perfect reception, but I will accept you have just provided one example at
least.

MrT.

Never mind, you see that's the difference between a dichhead and a

fuckwit, But you will learn that when you reach the age of six.

bassett

 

[bassett]

"a t e c 7 7" <"atec 77 at hotmail dot com"> wrote in message
news:46bad54d@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

Mr.T wrote:
"a t e c 7 7" <"atec 77 at hotmail dot com"> wrote in message
news:46b99d58$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
Whatever,,
But it strange that all the experts are having trouble and all
the
dickheads have perfect reception.
At least you now realise you are a dickhead. Anyone can get lucky, but
there
is no evidence that "all" the other dickheads have perfect reception.

There is and lots of it but it is anecdotal

I fail to see how any unspecified anecdotes can prove ALL dickheads have
perfect reception, but I will accept you have just provided one example
at
least.

MrT.


trying to make a funny point again I see T , and failing

Trying would be the operative word "atec" He trying all right,
Bloody trying. I think someone pissed in the puddle he was playing
in.
bassett

 

[bassett]

"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:5htjl9F3lnnc6U1@mid.individual.net...

"bassett"


Whatever,,
But it strange that all the experts are having trouble and all the
dickheads have perfect reception.



** Peeeeeeuuuuuueeeeeeeee !!!

" bassett " just did a very smelly fart ........

Outside, doggy - outside right now .....




....... Phil

This thread now degenerates down to Phil's level, Do not pass go,
do not collect 200, go back to Aus Hi-Fi, and annoy no-one
bassett

 

[Phil Allison]

"bassett"



Peeeeeeuuuuuukkkkeeeeeeeee !!!

" bassett " just did another very smelly fart !!

Outside, doggy - outside right now .....

Or you will get a good kick up the bum.

Like you deserve.





.......... Phil

 

[Mr.T]

"bassett" <bassett@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote in message
news:46baebc6$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

Never mind, you see that's the difference between a dichhead and a
fuckwit, But you will learn that when you reach the age of six.

Who told you then?

MrT.

 

[bassett]

"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
news:46bbde72$0$15142$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

"bassett" <bassett@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote in message
news:46baebc6$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
Never mind, you see that's the difference between a dichhead and
a
fuckwit, But you will learn that when you reach the age of six.

Who told you then?

MrT.

Who told me what, "Petal"

 

[JANA]

So, you obviously never worked in the industry!

With digital signals, if the signal is on the edge, it will start to give
pixellations. This is because parts of the data packets can be missing due
to the noise level being too high in relation to the weak signal. As for
antennas, they can be very sophisticated with distribution amplifiers and
etc. I am not talking about a simple pice of wire, which is not realy a
very high performance type antenna!


Below is an example of many instances where TV pixelation has occurred due
to poor reception.

________________________________________________________

From:
http://calypso.tux.org/pipermail/novalug/2007-June/006197.html

Now to the problems:
TV Pixelation: I had a tech tell me that the TV signal strength was
borderline and that would potentially cause some pixelation. There was a
ticket open to look into this since June 3rd and I have been told to call
weekly as long as the problem persists. The real problem is that this will
affect all 24 people who share a fiber termination point with me ..but
because I am the first they are not getting enough complaints to come out
and fix it yet. Its a minor annoyance and we encounter maybe 15 seconds of
it a night and I have yet to see it once on a recorded program.

Outage: 3 days after they installed the service ..it stopped working ..not
everything mind you just the Phone and internet. So I call tech support
...and I am routed into an IVR system that does the diagnostic for you then
opens a ticket ..no option for a human being. I was told I should have a
fix by 6 hours later (8pm on a thursday).

Well 4 hours later I call back to check ..still stuck in the IVR system I am
told the ticket won't be fixed for 24 hours. So the following day from work
I connect to Verizons web support chat, where I am told that the box on my
house( a module in the NID) is not communicating correctly. Long story
short ..no tech on Friday either but I got angry enough to get through to a
human being on the phone (via cell of course as the home phone is dead) and
got promised a tech first thing Saturday morning. So first thing Sat ..tech
shows up, he replaces a module inside the NID ..calls in to activate it
...and POOF problem fixed.


___________________________________________________________



--

JANA
_____


"bassett" <bassett@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote in message
news:46b7dd0c@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
news:46b6cd74$0$7087$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

"bassett" <bassett@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote in message
news:46b523a8$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
With digital there is no such thing as good or bad, You ether
have a signal or you don't.

Crappo. I consider no drop-outs/pixelation to be "good" and *lots* of
drop-outs/pixelation to be "bad".
No signal/picture at all would be "really bad" of course.

I don't think you have idea, just how digital works. With digital
you get a picture or you don't. it's that simple. No snow, no noise,
etc. also there is no need for a mast head amp, EVER. regardless
of what your installer might tell you.
Digital works with a multi-layer of signals, once the signal is
transmitted , it's picked up by the forward error correction, [FEC]
in the receiver and the best signals are selected and sent to the
tuner Most common configuration is 3/4. From the four signals
sent it selects three, If it can't find three it simply shuts
down . You might get some pixallation in heavy rain, this happens
simply because for a few millie-seconds it can't access the signal
requirements, If it continues it simply shuts down, until it can
work as it should.

*** Define "Digital" antenna.

One designed specifically for reception of digital transmission
frequencies, in your area. One with a suitable feed co-ax and also
suitable connections etc.

There is no differance between antenna types, they work or they
don't. it;'s as simple as that. In some situations plan old "rabbit"
ears will work, or a coat hanger, and there's nothing digital about
them,

They don't exist..

Sure they do, as defined.

examples please

Once you get digital you won't go back.

*** why would you want too ??????

So you can view Ch31/community access TV? :-(

MrT.
Not in country area's mate.

bassett

 

On Aug 12, 9:36 pm, "JANA" <j...@NOSPAMca.inter.net> wrote:

So, you obviously never worked in the industry!

With digital signals, if the signal is on the edge, it will start to give
pixellations. This is because parts of the data packets can be missing due
to the noise level being too high in relation to the weak signal. As for
antennas, they can be very sophisticated with distribution amplifiers and
etc. I am not talking about a simple pice of wire, which is not realy a
very high performance type antenna!

Below is an example of many instances where TV pixelation has occurred due
to poor reception.

________________________________________________________

From:http://calypso.tux.org/pipermail/novalug/2007-June/006197.html

Now to the problems:
TV Pixelation: I had a tech tell me that the TV signal strength was
borderline and that would potentially cause some pixelation. There was a
ticket open to look into this since June 3rd and I have been told to call
weekly as long as the problem persists. The real problem is that this will
affect all 24 people who share a fiber termination point with me ..but
because I am the first they are not getting enough complaints to come out
and fix it yet. Its a minor annoyance and we encounter maybe 15 seconds of
it a night and I have yet to see it once on a recorded program.

Outage: 3 days after they installed the service ..it stopped working ..not
everything mind you just the Phone and internet. So I call tech support
..and I am routed into an IVR system that does the diagnostic for you then
opens a ticket ..no option for a human being. I was told I should have a
fix by 6 hours later (8pm on a thursday).

Well 4 hours later I call back to check ..still stuck in the IVR system I am
told the ticket won't be fixed for 24 hours. So the following day from work
I connect to Verizons web support chat, where I am told that the box on my
house( a module in the NID) is not communicating correctly. Long story
short ..no tech on Friday either but I got angry enough to get through to a
human being on the phone (via cell of course as the home phone is dead) and
got promised a tech first thing Saturday morning. So first thing Sat ..tech
shows up, he replaces a module inside the NID ..calls in to activate it
..and POOF problem fixed.

___________________________________________________________

--

JANA
_____

"bassett" <bass...@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote in message

news:46b7dd0c@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message

news:46b6cd74$0$7087$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...



"bassett" <bass...@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote in message
news:46b523a8$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
With digital there is no such thing as good or bad, You ether
have a signal or you don't.

Crappo. I consider no drop-outs/pixelation to be "good" and *lots* of
drop-outs/pixelation to be "bad".
No signal/picture at all would be "really bad" of course.

I don't think you have idea, just how digital works. With digital
you get a picture or you don't. it's that simple. No snow, no noise,
etc. also there is no need for a mast head amp, EVER. regardless
of what your installer might tell you.
Digital works with a multi-layer of signals, once the signal is
transmitted , it's picked up by the forward error correction, [FEC]
in the receiver and the best signals are selected and sent to the
tuner Most common configuration is 3/4. From the four signals
sent it selects three, If it can't find three it simply shuts
down . You might get some pixallation in heavy rain, this happens
simply because for a few millie-seconds it can't access the signal
requirements, If it continues it simply shuts down, until it can
work as it should.



*** Define "Digital" antenna.

One designed specifically for reception of digital transmission
frequencies, in your area. One with a suitable feed co-ax and also
suitable connections etc.

There is no differance between antenna types, they work or they
don't. it;'s as simple as that. In some situations plan old "rabbit"
ears will work, or a coat hanger, and there's nothing digital about
them,

They don't exist..

Sure they do, as defined.

examples please

Once you get digital you won't go back.

*** why would you want too ??????

So you can view Ch31/community access TV? :-(

MrT.

Not in country area's mate.
bassett

What in heavens name does a cable problem with
Verizon have to do with AUSTRALIAN digital TV?
This is an Australian newsgroup and we use DVB
not ATSC which is totally different in transmission
methods.