can digital get picture if analog TV is weak?

I have analogue telly at the moment. I use three
antennae for VHF low, VHF high, and UHF going
into a triplexer. Thus I can adjust each one
separately. The VHF high (for 7, 9, and 10)
is the problem, probably because the channel 10
transmitter is in a different direction to 7 and 9.
I have moved the antenna all over the place, but
can't get a good picture on all three. After
last attempt I have channel 7 the noisiest, and
if it rains, the picture drops back to black and
white. I can't raise the anntenna any higher.
So I wonder will going digital help?
If the signal is weak and borderline for analogue
TV, will a digital box pull out anything?

 

[David L. Jones]

On Aug 3, 4:36 pm, u235b...@ml1.net wrote:

I have analogue telly at the moment. I use three
antennae for VHF low, VHF high, and UHF going
into a triplexer. Thus I can adjust each one
separately. The VHF high (for 7, 9, and 10)
is the problem, probably because the channel 10
transmitter is in a different direction to 7 and 9.
I have moved the antenna all over the place, but
can't get a good picture on all three. After
last attempt I have channel 7 the noisiest, and
if it rains, the picture drops back to black and
white. I can't raise the anntenna any higher.
So I wonder will going digital help?
If the signal is weak and borderline for analogue
TV, will a digital box pull out anything?

Impossible to say, it's always a case-by-case basis. But generally you
need a decent analog reception to get digital on your existing
antenna.
Look here to see where your digital transmitters are located:
http://www.dba.org.au/index.asp?sectionID=22

Sounds like it's time you upgraded your antenna and system
installation anyway. You might even be able to get away with a single
digital antenna.

Once you get digital you won't go back.

Dave.

 

[Mr.T]

<u235bomb@ml1.net> wrote in message
news:1186123012.494870.141410@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

So I wonder will going digital help?
If the signal is weak and borderline for analogue
TV, will a digital box pull out anything?

It's my experience that most digital receivers give a small amount of pixel
break-up infrequently with a strong signal, and a large amount of frequent
break-up, or no picture at all with a very weak signal.
The performance of digital tuners varies just as much as analog tuners,
however frequent digital drop-outs can be even more annoying than a poor
analog signal IMO.

I suggest you simply try a STB that can be returned if unusable in your
location.

MrT.

 

[Michael Bednarek]

On Thu, 02 Aug 2007 23:36:52 -0700, u235bomb@ml1.net wrote in
aus.tv.digital, [aus.electronics]:

I have analogue telly at the moment. I use three
antennae for VHF low, VHF high, and UHF going
into a triplexer. Thus I can adjust each one
separately. The VHF high (for 7, 9, and 10)
is the problem, probably because the channel 10
transmitter is in a different direction to 7 and 9.
I have moved the antenna all over the place, but
can't get a good picture on all three. After
last attempt I have channel 7 the noisiest, and
if it rains, the picture drops back to black and
white. I can't raise the anntenna any higher.
So I wonder will going digital help?
If the signal is weak and borderline for analogue
TV, will a digital box pull out anything?

I have very variable analogue reception here in a unit in Hamilton,
Brisbane. At some time, each channel is hardly watchable, especially
ch.7; at other times, they are all bearable.

However, the digital reception is pretty close to perfect. There are
occasional pixelations, picture break-ups and annoying loud audio
artifacts, but they may well be the result of the tuner.

To answer the question: get a STB and try it - you've got nothing to
lose.

--
Michael Bednarek http://mbednarek.com/ "POST NO BILLS"

 

[Stuart]

<u235bomb@ml1.net> wrote in message
news:1186123012.494870.141410@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

I have analogue telly at the moment. I use three
antennae for VHF low, VHF high, and UHF going
into a triplexer. Thus I can adjust each one
separately. The VHF high (for 7, 9, and 10)
is the problem, probably because the channel 10
transmitter is in a different direction to 7 and 9.
I have moved the antenna all over the place, but
can't get a good picture on all three. After
last attempt I have channel 7 the noisiest, and
if it rains, the picture drops back to black and
white. I can't raise the anntenna any higher.
So I wonder will going digital help?
If the signal is weak and borderline for analogue
TV, will a digital box pull out anything?

The only sure way to know is to borrow a stb and try - remember you don't
need any reception below ch6 (analog) for digital channels and that gets rid
of a lot of noise. A friend who lives in the direct shadow of a shopping
centre in the inner west of Sydney has absolutely no analog reception but
when he installed a Fracarro digital antenna he was able to pick up all
Sydney digital stations by pointing the antenna at a building nearly 90
degrees off the correct normal direction - his only panic is if they ever
redevelop that 5 story block of units! So it's worth getting an Antenna
specialist out to do some in situ measurements...

 

[bassett]

"David L. Jones" <altzone@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1186124368.203407.118260@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 3, 4:36 pm, u235b...@ml1.net wrote:
I have analogue telly at the moment. I use three
antennae for VHF low, VHF high, and UHF going
into a triplexer. Thus I can adjust each one
separately. The VHF high (for 7, 9, and 10)
is the problem,

*** that's because 7 & 9 are UHF

probably because the channel 10

transmitter is in a different direction to 7 and 9.
I have moved the antenna all over the place, but
can't get a good picture on all three. After
last attempt I have channel 7 the noisiest, and
if it rains, the picture drops back to black and
white. I can't raise the anntenna any higher.
So I wonder will going digital help?
If the signal is weak and borderline for analogue
TV, will a digital box pull out anything?

Impossible to say, it's always a case-by-case basis. But generally you
need a decent analog reception to get digital on your existing
antenna.

*** It does not follow, that simply because you have a lousy
analogue signal, that a digital signal will be the same. In some
cases a non-existant analogue signal will result in a digital
signal.
With digital there is no such thing a s good or bad, You ether
have a signal or you don't.

Look here to see where your digital transmitters are located:
http://www.dba.org.au/index.asp?sectionID=22

Sounds like it's time you upgraded your antenna and system
installation anyway. You might even be able to get away with a single
digital antenna.

*** Define "Digital" antenna. They don't exist..

Once you get digital you won't go back.
Dave

*** why would you want too ??????

 

[John Tserkezis]

bassett wrote:

With digital there is no such thing a s good or bad, You ether
have a signal or you don't.

Not quite true.

It is correct that a "weaker" digital signal will result in intermittant or
sometimes non-existant viewing.

However a too strong signal can also cause reception problems. Of course,
this doesn't happen very often, but it certainly has happened here in
Australia when people are close to the transmitters and still insist on using
high gain antennas.

I'm guessing it comes down to the AGC range of the receiver at the high end
of the scale, likely their analogue receiver was obviously better at handling
high signals than their set top box or whatever.

--
Linux Registered User # 302622
<http://counter.li.org>

 

[bassett]

"John Tserkezis" <jt@techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:46b52624$0$29024$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

bassett wrote:

With digital there is no such thing a s good or bad, You ether
have a signal or you don't.

Not quite true.

It is correct that a "weaker" digital signal will result in intermittant
or sometimes non-existant viewing.

However a too strong signal can also cause reception problems. Of
course, this doesn't happen very often, but it certainly has happened here
in Australia when people are close to the transmitters and still insist on
using high gain antennas.

I'm guessing it comes down to the AGC range of the receiver at the high
end of the scale, likely their analogue receiver was obviously better at
handling high signals than their set top box or whatever.

--
Linux Registered User # 302622
http://counter.li.org

I think your attempting to split hairs, and failing.

FEC decides if the standard of the signal is reproducible.

While I will agree with you in part about high gain antenna's it's
still controlled by FEC, and this also makes masthead amps obsolete.

Many people who had a high gain antenna, for analogue systems,
retained that antenna, and in 99 cases out of a 100, it does the
job.
And some people will tell you, that it's imposable to have a "too"
strong signal, it's also arguable , that modern Tuners are self
regulating in that regard.. BUT unlike analogue, we have "Forward
Error Correction " which examens the signal long before it reaches the
Tuner, Would you not agree.
bassett

 

[David L. Jones]

On Aug 5, 11:10 am, "bassett" <bass...@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote:

"David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1186124368.203407.118260@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 3, 4:36 pm, u235b...@ml1.net wrote:
I have analogue telly at the moment. I use three
antennae for VHF low, VHF high, and UHF going
into a triplexer. Thus I can adjust each one
separately. The VHF high (for 7, 9, and 10)
is the problem,

*** that's because 7 & 9 are UHF

probably because the channel 10

transmitter is in a different direction to 7 and 9.
I have moved the antenna all over the place, but
can't get a good picture on all three. After
last attempt I have channel 7 the noisiest, and
if it rains, the picture drops back to black and
white. I can't raise the anntenna any higher.
So I wonder will going digital help?
If the signal is weak and borderline for analogue
TV, will a digital box pull out anything?

Impossible to say, it's always a case-by-case basis. But generally you
need a decent analog reception to get digital on your existing
antenna.

*** It does not follow, that simply because you have a lousy
analogue signal, that a digital signal will be the same. In some
cases a non-existant analogue signal will result in a digital
signal.
With digital there is no such thing a s good or bad, You ether
have a signal or you don't.

Look here to see where your digital transmitters are located:
http://www.dba.org.au/index.asp?sectionID=22

Sounds like it's time you upgraded your antenna and system
installation anyway. You might even be able to get away with a single
digital antenna.

*** Define "Digital" antenna. They don't exist..

A "digital" antenna is one designed only for the channels used by
digital TV, and those *do* exist. Perhaps they should be called
"digital band" or something to avoid the stupid semantic arguments.

My "digital" antenna is is not only designed just for the digital
channels, but it's a log-periodic design too which can give an
improved signal and better noise immunity in some situations. Much
smaller and nicer looking than my old "analog" band yagi antennas.

Dave.

 

"David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1186124368.203407.118260@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 3, 4:36 pm, u235b...@ml1.net wrote:
I have analogue telly at the moment. I use three
antennae for VHF low, VHF high, and UHF going
into a triplexer. Thus I can adjust each one
separately. The VHF high (for 7, 9, and 10)
is the problem,

There is simply no correlation between Analogue and Digital signals
so the digital results depend on many other things than what
your analogue signals are like.

As a generalisation if you have a snowy analogue signal with
ghosts then the probability is that you will get digital.

The original poster does not say which city he is in but 7 and 10
analogue come from the same site in Sydney with 9 analogue from
another site and ABC from the 3rd Gore Hill site.
9 digital comes from the same site as the 9 analogue signals
while 7 and 10 digital come from the same site as the analogue at
times and from the 9 site at others.
ABC digital comes from the same site as the analogue channel 2
and SBS analogue comes from Gore Hill while the digital usually
comes from the 7 10 site.

As far as Basset's assertion that 7 and 9 are UHF thats patent
rubbish.

It will be instructive if the poster tells us which city he is in and
then we may be able to give some real advise instead of the useless
answers so far.

 

[bassett]

<100246.2055@compuserve.com> wrote in message

There is simply no correlation between Analogue and Digital signals
so the digital results depend on many other things than what
your analogue signals are like.

As a generalisation if you have a snowy analogue signal with
ghosts then the probability is that you will get digital.

The original poster does not say which city he is in but 7 and 10
analogue come from the same site in Sydney with 9 analogue from
another site and ABC from the 3rd Gore Hill site.
9 digital comes from the same site as the 9 analogue signals
while 7 and 10 digital come from the same site as the analogue at
times and from the 9 site at others.
ABC digital comes from the same site as the analogue channel 2
and SBS analogue comes from Gore Hill while the digital usually
comes from the 7 10 site.

As far as Basset's assertion that 7 and 9 are UHF thats patent
rubbish.

Most charming, I'm sure, I have a little 60inch tellie in the
kennel,
It has a three way tuner channels 7,.9, SBS are tuned via the UHF
tuner, Channel 10 is VHFH and ABC is VHFL
and the other thing you got incorrect is all my rubbish is patented.
So hands up all those who invited this fuck-wit, to answer.

It will be instructive if the poster tells us which city he is in and
then we may be able to give some real advise instead of the useless
answers so far.

You of cause include your own answer, one would assume
Next,
bassett

 

[John Tserkezis]

bassett wrote:

And some people will tell you, that it's imposable to have a "too"
strong signal, it's also arguable , that modern Tuners are self
regulating in that regard.. BUT unlike analogue, we have "Forward
Error Correction " which examens the signal long before it reaches the
Tuner, Would you not agree.

While FEC plays a part, if the front end is swamped, you're going to corrupt
the signal to the point that FEC isn't going to have much of a chance to do
anything.
--
Linux Registered User # 302622
<http://counter.li.org>

 

[bassett]

"John Tserkezis" <jt@techniciansyndrome.org.invalid> wrote in message
news:46b5a694$0$19339$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

bassett wrote:

And some people will tell you, that it's imposable to have a "too"
strong signal, it's also arguable , that modern Tuners are self
regulating in that regard.. BUT unlike analogue, we have "Forward
Error Correction " which examens the signal long before it reaches
the Tuner, Would you not agree.

While FEC plays a part, if the front end is swamped, you're going to
corrupt the signal to the point that FEC isn't going to have much of a
chance to do anything.
--
Linux Registered User # 302622
http://counter.li.org

What you forgot to say, was that if and when the front end is
swamped, [presumably with signal strength, or overload ?? ] the FEC
will be unable to cope and simply shut down. After all that's what
it's there for, and please remember we are using a 3/4
comfigeration not a 7/8,
bassett

 

[Dorfus Dippintush]

David L. Jones wrote:

On Aug 5, 11:10 am, "bassett" <bass...@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote:
"David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote in messagenews:1186124368.203407.118260@d30g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

On Aug 3, 4:36 pm, u235b...@ml1.net wrote:
I have analogue telly at the moment. I use three
antennae for VHF low, VHF high, and UHF going
into a triplexer. Thus I can adjust each one
separately. The VHF high (for 7, 9, and 10)
is the problem,
*** that's because 7 & 9 are UHF

probably because the channel 10

transmitter is in a different direction to 7 and 9.
I have moved the antenna all over the place, but
can't get a good picture on all three. After
last attempt I have channel 7 the noisiest, and
if it rains, the picture drops back to black and
white. I can't raise the anntenna any higher.
So I wonder will going digital help?
If the signal is weak and borderline for analogue
TV, will a digital box pull out anything?
Impossible to say, it's always a case-by-case basis. But generally you
need a decent analog reception to get digital on your existing
antenna.
*** It does not follow, that simply because you have a lousy
analogue signal, that a digital signal will be the same. In some
cases a non-existant analogue signal will result in a digital
signal.
With digital there is no such thing a s good or bad, You ether
have a signal or you don't.

Look here to see where your digital transmitters are located:
http://www.dba.org.au/index.asp?sectionID=22
Sounds like it's time you upgraded your antenna and system
installation anyway. You might even be able to get away with a single
digital antenna.
*** Define "Digital" antenna. They don't exist..

A "digital" antenna is one designed only for the channels used by
digital TV, and those *do* exist. Perhaps they should be called
"digital band" or something to avoid the stupid semantic arguments.

My "digital" antenna is is not only designed just for the digital
channels, but it's a log-periodic design too which can give an
improved signal and better noise immunity in some situations. Much
smaller and nicer looking than my old "analog" band yagi antennas.

Dave.

A log periodic has lower gain than an equivalent sized Yagi. There is
nothing that would make a log periodic better. Having excessive
bandwidth is pointless. The only improvement I could see would be to
have a loop antenna, maybe like a cubicle quad, for lower noise and
slightly higher gain than a Yagi.

Dorfus

 

[Doug Jewell]

"bassett" <bassett@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote in message
news:46b5aba8$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

As far as Basset's assertion that 7 and 9 are UHF thats patent
rubbish.

Most charming, I'm sure, I have a little 60inch tellie in the
kennel,
It has a three way tuner channels 7,.9, SBS are tuned via the UHF
tuner, Channel 10 is VHFH and ABC is VHFL
and the other thing you got incorrect is all my rubbish is patented.
So hands up all those who invited this fuck-wit, to answer.
which means in your location you are tuning to UHF repeaters of 7 & 9. This

may be the case in your location, and is the case in most of regional
australia, but in every eastern capital (and possibly adelaide & perth but
haven't checked), 7 & 9 are broadcast on channels 7 & 9 respectively which
are located in the VHF-H band.
In some locations where geographical conditions prevent reception on the
main channels, repeater stations have been set up on UHF channels. They
can't set up the repeaters on the main channel because it would cause
interference. The actual frequencies used will vary depending on what
channels are available in the location and depending on what channels are
used by adjacent regional stations.

It will be instructive if the poster tells us which city he is in and
then we may be able to give some real advise instead of the useless
answers so far.

You of cause include your own answer, one would assume
Next,
bassett

 

[bassett]

wrote:

"David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote in A "digital" antenna is one
designed only for the channels used by
digital TV, and those *do* exist. Perhaps they should be called
"digital band" or something to avoid the stupid semantic arguments.

My "digital" antenna is is not only designed just for the digital
channels, but it's a log-periodic design too which can give an
improved signal and better noise immunity in some situations. Much
smaller and nicer looking than my old "analog" band yagi antennas.

Dave.

Just perhaps you could provide a link to your "digital" antenna, then
we can all evaluate it.
bassett

 

[Phil Allison]

"bassett"

Just perhaps you could provide a link to your "digital" antenna,
then we can all evaluate it.

** Dave did that - about 2 weeks ago on " aus.electronics ".


" Also, my "digital" antenna is a log-periodic type, like this one:
http://www.australiandigitaltv.com/accessories/digitalantenna.htm

Dave. "




........ Phil

 

[Malcolm Taylor]

"Doug Jewell" <noone@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:46b6461f$0$22576$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...

"bassett" <bassett@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote in message
news:46b5aba8$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

As far as Basset's assertion that 7 and 9 are UHF thats patent
rubbish.

Most charming, I'm sure, I have a little 60inch tellie in the
kennel,
It has a three way tuner channels 7,.9, SBS are tuned via the UHF
tuner, Channel 10 is VHFH and ABC is VHFL
and the other thing you got incorrect is all my rubbish is
patented.
So hands up all those who invited this fuck-wit, to answer.
which means in your location you are tuning to UHF repeaters of 7 & 9.
This may be the case in your location, and is the case in most of regional
australia, but in every eastern capital (and possibly adelaide & perth but
haven't checked), 7 & 9 are broadcast on channels 7 & 9 respectively which
are located in the VHF-H band.

FYI, Adelaide's main analogue transmitters (near Mt. Lofty) are all VHF,
except for SBS which is UHF ch 28. The analog VHF is on channels 2, 7, 9,
10, but there are UHF repeaters in the CBD, mainly for those in the shadow
of the hills. Digital is also VHF from Mt. Lofty, on channels 12, 6, 8 and
11 for ABC, Seven, Nine and Ten respectively. I think SBS digital is UHF
like their analogue and the digital repeaters in the CBD are all UHF.

 

[Stuart]

"bassett" <bassett@bassettskennel.com.au> wrote in message
news:46b6922a@dnews.tpgi.com.au...

wrote:
"David L. Jones" <altz...@gmail.com> wrote in A "digital" antenna is one
designed only for the channels used by
digital TV, and those *do* exist. Perhaps they should be called
"digital band" or something to avoid the stupid semantic arguments.

My "digital" antenna is is not only designed just for the digital
channels, but it's a log-periodic design too which can give an
improved signal and better noise immunity in some situations. Much
smaller and nicer looking than my old "analog" band yagi antennas.

Dave.


Just perhaps you could provide a link to your "digital" antenna,
then we can all evaluate it.
bassett

It's all about syntax - of course there is no such thing as a digital
antenna or a digital microphone for that matter but it is human nature,
especially in Australia to shorthand the language even if it's technically
wrong. Personally I like this charming Australian characteristic.

A so called "digital antenna" is one that has been designed to receive
those frequencies that are used in Australia for DTV.ie nothing below Ch6
(analog). Mine is a Fraccaro log periodic
http://www.laceys.tv/secure/index.php as is my friend who has absolutely no
analog reception regardless of antenna design array, well not unless he was
willing to put up a 200 foot pole! The Fracarro pulls in 96% signal strength
with similar quality on his Topfield 5000. And here I am a few suburbs away
with perfect line of site with 100%. So this antenna must be doing something
the others don't, all tried by a antenna specialist engineer (not Hills!
etc) who did extensive measurements of signal strength and quality using a
range of antenna designs. So as far as my friend is concerned he is not the
least bit interested in the technical analysis just the excellent results he
has achieved for a $50 antenna that is quite tiny, even the birds don't sit
on it and another $150 for installation and new quad cable etc..

 

[JANA]

Because you are using a triplexer, you may need a CATV type amplifier for
the antenna. It is possible that you will need an amplifier for each band,
and use the proper traps for them. This is something that will require the
services of a professional installer. He would start by evaluating the
antenna with a spectrum analyser to make sure that it is in spec, and then
work his way back to determine the exact needs.

As far as a digital TV with a digital tuner is concerned, it will only get
digital programs as long as they are being transmitted in digital. This
means that in your case the stations being received would have to have their
program content on their signal carrier in digital, and not in analog.

When a consumer digital TV is receiving an analog signal, it will work just
like an analog TV is concerned. This means that if the signal is noisy, the
set will reproduce the noise just the same way as any other analog TV. In
fact, a high end TV will usually be more sensitive to the noise, and the
viewer would probably see the noise a lot better!

If a digital TV is receiving a digital signal, and the reception is weak, as
long as the signal data is above the capture threshold of the TV's receiving
and processing system, the picture should look very good. If the signal goes
below the capture threshold, the viewer would normaly see pixelations in the
picture content. The audio would probably be also dropping out and in with
the signal variations.

The amount of signal required for a digital TV to have stable reception
depends on the capture threshold. Some digital TV models can work down to
10% to 15% signal in relation to a normal level. This means that the set may
work up to about 85% noise content in the signal.

This subject is very hypothetical. The above is only an example. There are
many factors and variables involved. The proper answer is to get a
professional antenna installer in, and let him check it out and make the
proper suggestions. At the same time he can also check out the TV set. I
have seen people complain about an antenna or cable installation, and it
turned out the fault was in the tuner or IF section of the TV.


--

JANA
_____


<u235bomb@ml1.net> wrote in message
news:1186123012.494870.141410@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
I have analogue telly at the moment. I use three
antennae for VHF low, VHF high, and UHF going
into a triplexer. Thus I can adjust each one
separately. The VHF high (for 7, 9, and 10)
is the problem, probably because the channel 10
transmitter is in a different direction to 7 and 9.
I have moved the antenna all over the place, but
can't get a good picture on all three. After
last attempt I have channel 7 the noisiest, and
if it rains, the picture drops back to black and
white. I can't raise the anntenna any higher.
So I wonder will going digital help?
If the signal is weak and borderline for analogue
TV, will a digital box pull out anything?