Anyone make PCBs with Othermill?

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 10:34:01 PM UTC+2, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:

Den tirsdag den 7. juli 2015 kl. 22.15.18 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 13:07:17 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

Den tirsdag den 7. juli 2015 kl. 20.57.23 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two places I've
worked. Neither had/has been used in the time I've been there. By
the time you get the layout done, it's easier and better to just get a
board made. They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We used it at least 4-5 times per week and it was great for producing fast prototyping. We could come up with an idea in the morning and have a working PCB in the afternoon. With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

Anyone make such a milling machine priced for home hobbyist use?


you can get a Chinese router/engraver on ebay for ~$500 that would do the job but for hobby use it doesn't make much sense, you'll spend more in tool bits than it cost to get a prober pcb made and delivered in a few weeks

http://pcbshopper.com/ compares a number of cheap board houses

as an example, 10 pieces, 10x10cm, 2 layers, delivered with UPS express in 8 days ~$30


-Lasse

My only thought was, in the prototyping phase, I'm often prone to
screw-ups ;-)

doing ICs I would think you had learned to "measure twice, cut once"


But, for G-jobs, maybe I should not hurry and beat the scheme to death
with simulations... then order a board.


makes a lot more sense, you still have to do the design, schematic,
layout, find all the parts etc. so the week or two that it takes to
get a board doesn't add that much

You can't order the PCB before the schematics and layout is finish. So during the week or 2 for the PCB to arrive, the milling option will have a finished prototype, probably allready tested etc. (we always have most parts in stock, so we do not lose time on that)

Cheers

Klaus

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Wednesday, July 8, 2015 at 12:35:41 AM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 07 Jul 2015 14:56:45 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

On 7/7/2015 12:56 AM, John S wrote:
On 7/7/2015 2:48 AM, Klaus Kragelund wrote:
On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to
use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to
use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two places I've
worked. Neither had/has been used in the time I've been there. By
the time you get the layout done, it's easier and better to just get a
board made. They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We used it at
least 4-5 times per week and it was great for producing fast
prototyping. We could come up with an idea in the morning and have a
working PCB in the afternoon. With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

What did you do about the PTH?

You can't do those. No big deal these days with so few through-hold parts.

The issue is vias.

Vias are pretty easy to do:

http://www.lpkf.com/products/rapid-pcb-prototyping/through-hole-plating/index.htm

You can even do multilayer:

http://www.lpkf.com/products/rapid-pcb-prototyping/multilayer/index.htm


http://www.lpkf.com/

Cheers

Klaus

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 00:58:15 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
<klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 5:52:03 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two places I've
worked. Neither had/has been used in the time I've been there. By
the time you get the layout done, it's easier and better to just get a
board made. They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We used it at least 4-5 times per week and it was great for producing fast prototyping. We could come up with an idea in the morning and have a working PCB in the afternoon. With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

Our products are 4-10 layers and have BGAs, chip-scale parts, and at
least hundreds of parts, sometime over a thousand. We don't prototype,
and couldn't prototype on a milled board anyhow.

We do occasionally make small breadboards to test one part or one
little circuit, where we don't have the data or tools to be confident.
We hack them on copperclad with adapters, or order a few real 4-layer
boards with PTHs and solder mask and silk and gold plating. Most
product designs go from concept to a manufactured, sellable rev A
without any physical breadboarding or protos.


We normally have 2 prototype series, and 2-4 revision series PCBs before full scale production. In the place where we used the milling machine, we could have 10 prototypes before the final solution

We have zero prototypes. Ten protos sounds like design by trial and
error to me.

I'd argue that in most cases prototyping slows down development and
wastes engineering/tech hours and teaches bad habits. Might make sense
for microstrip filters or patch antennas, maybe, if you don't trust
your tools.

Well, if you are on very tight time schedule, then milling will be a way to speed up the process (no waiting for PCBs)

To speed up the time to production, eliminate all of the prototypes.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 01:05:54 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
<klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 10:34:01 PM UTC+2, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
Den tirsdag den 7. juli 2015 kl. 22.15.18 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 13:07:17 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

Den tirsdag den 7. juli 2015 kl. 20.57.23 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two places I've
worked. Neither had/has been used in the time I've been there. By
the time you get the layout done, it's easier and better to just get a
board made. They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We used it at least 4-5 times per week and it was great for producing fast prototyping. We could come up with an idea in the morning and have a working PCB in the afternoon. With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

Anyone make such a milling machine priced for home hobbyist use?


you can get a Chinese router/engraver on ebay for ~$500 that would do the job but for hobby use it doesn't make much sense, you'll spend more in tool bits than it cost to get a prober pcb made and delivered in a few weeks

http://pcbshopper.com/ compares a number of cheap board houses

as an example, 10 pieces, 10x10cm, 2 layers, delivered with UPS express in 8 days ~$30


-Lasse

My only thought was, in the prototyping phase, I'm often prone to
screw-ups ;-)

doing ICs I would think you had learned to "measure twice, cut once"


But, for G-jobs, maybe I should not hurry and beat the scheme to death
with simulations... then order a board.


makes a lot more sense, you still have to do the design, schematic,
layout, find all the parts etc. so the week or two that it takes to
get a board doesn't add that much


You can't order the PCB before the schematics and layout is finish. So during the week or 2 for the PCB to arrive, the milling option will have a finished prototype, probably allready tested etc. (we always have most parts in stock, so we do not lose time on that)

A modern design, with BGAs and fine-pitch parts, couldn't be made on a
milled board. And we can buy a lot of 2-day or 1-day turn PCBs for the
cost of a PCB milling machine.

I'd expect that a 3-day turn of a few pieces of proper boards
(multilayer, 5 mil features, PTH, blue solder mask, yellow silk,
routed to the right size, tested) would cost less than the labor
needed to make it on a milling machine. We usually order six or eight,
assuming that they will work and that several can be sent to
customers. Nearly all the time, they do work.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 00:53:56 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
<klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 5:35:22 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

Milled PCBs are very limited. They take a lot of time to set up and
make, and they don't have vias, multiple layers, solder mask or
silkscreens or decent plating. If your time is worth anything, order a
few nice 4-layer boards from a quickturn PCB house.

We had an expensive PCB milling machine for a while, on loan. It
wasn't worth using.


Probably true for your line of work, if you don't use very high density circuit, then it's perfectly ok. Each time you save 100USD for a prototype PCB

Cheers

Klaus

Quick-turn boards cost us a lot more than that! But people are
expensive here, and somebody has to operate that milling machine.

$100, or $800, is in the noise. What matters is time to market.
Engineers are expensive, so we want to finish a product and move on. I
think that multiple prototypes, or even one prototype, slow down the
process.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[krw]

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 07:23:48 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 00:58:15 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 5:52:03 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two places I've
worked. Neither had/has been used in the time I've been there. By
the time you get the layout done, it's easier and better to just get a
board made. They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We used it at least 4-5 times per week and it was great for producing fast prototyping. We could come up with an idea in the morning and have a working PCB in the afternoon. With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

Our products are 4-10 layers and have BGAs, chip-scale parts, and at
least hundreds of parts, sometime over a thousand. We don't prototype,
and couldn't prototype on a milled board anyhow.

We do occasionally make small breadboards to test one part or one
little circuit, where we don't have the data or tools to be confident.
We hack them on copperclad with adapters, or order a few real 4-layer
boards with PTHs and solder mask and silk and gold plating. Most
product designs go from concept to a manufactured, sellable rev A
without any physical breadboarding or protos.


We normally have 2 prototype series, and 2-4 revision series PCBs before full scale production. In the place where we used the milling machine, we could have 10 prototypes before the final solution

We have zero prototypes. Ten protos sounds like design by trial and
error to me.

Or too often, specification by trial and error.

"No, that's not what I want."
"No, that's not quite right either."
"How about..."

I'd argue that in most cases prototyping slows down development and
wastes engineering/tech hours and teaches bad habits. Might make sense
for microstrip filters or patch antennas, maybe, if you don't trust
your tools.

Well, if you are on very tight time schedule, then milling will be a way to speed up the process (no waiting for PCBs)

To speed up the time to production, eliminate all of the prototypes.

Eliminate customers and management and it may be possible.

 

[krw]

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 07:33:16 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 01:05:54 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 10:34:01 PM UTC+2, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
Den tirsdag den 7. juli 2015 kl. 22.15.18 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 13:07:17 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

Den tirsdag den 7. juli 2015 kl. 20.57.23 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two places I've
worked. Neither had/has been used in the time I've been there. By
the time you get the layout done, it's easier and better to just get a
board made. They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We used it at least 4-5 times per week and it was great for producing fast prototyping. We could come up with an idea in the morning and have a working PCB in the afternoon. With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

Anyone make such a milling machine priced for home hobbyist use?


you can get a Chinese router/engraver on ebay for ~$500 that would do the job but for hobby use it doesn't make much sense, you'll spend more in tool bits than it cost to get a prober pcb made and delivered in a few weeks

http://pcbshopper.com/ compares a number of cheap board houses

as an example, 10 pieces, 10x10cm, 2 layers, delivered with UPS express in 8 days ~$30


-Lasse

My only thought was, in the prototyping phase, I'm often prone to
screw-ups ;-)

doing ICs I would think you had learned to "measure twice, cut once"


But, for G-jobs, maybe I should not hurry and beat the scheme to death
with simulations... then order a board.


makes a lot more sense, you still have to do the design, schematic,
layout, find all the parts etc. so the week or two that it takes to
get a board doesn't add that much


You can't order the PCB before the schematics and layout is finish. So during the week or 2 for the PCB to arrive, the milling option will have a finished prototype, probably allready tested etc. (we always have most parts in stock, so we do not lose time on that)


A modern design, with BGAs and fine-pitch parts, couldn't be made on a
milled board. And we can buy a lot of 2-day or 1-day turn PCBs for the
cost of a PCB milling machine.

I'd expect that a 3-day turn of a few pieces of proper boards
(multilayer, 5 mil features, PTH, blue solder mask, yellow silk,
routed to the right size, tested) would cost less than the labor
needed to make it on a milling machine. We usually order six or eight,
assuming that they will work and that several can be sent to
customers. Nearly all the time, they do work.

 

[krw]

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 07:33:16 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 01:05:54 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 10:34:01 PM UTC+2, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
Den tirsdag den 7. juli 2015 kl. 22.15.18 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 13:07:17 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

Den tirsdag den 7. juli 2015 kl. 20.57.23 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two places I've
worked. Neither had/has been used in the time I've been there. By
the time you get the layout done, it's easier and better to just get a
board made. They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We used it at least 4-5 times per week and it was great for producing fast prototyping. We could come up with an idea in the morning and have a working PCB in the afternoon. With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

Anyone make such a milling machine priced for home hobbyist use?


you can get a Chinese router/engraver on ebay for ~$500 that would do the job but for hobby use it doesn't make much sense, you'll spend more in tool bits than it cost to get a prober pcb made and delivered in a few weeks

http://pcbshopper.com/ compares a number of cheap board houses

as an example, 10 pieces, 10x10cm, 2 layers, delivered with UPS express in 8 days ~$30


-Lasse

My only thought was, in the prototyping phase, I'm often prone to
screw-ups ;-)

doing ICs I would think you had learned to "measure twice, cut once"


But, for G-jobs, maybe I should not hurry and beat the scheme to death
with simulations... then order a board.


makes a lot more sense, you still have to do the design, schematic,
layout, find all the parts etc. so the week or two that it takes to
get a board doesn't add that much


You can't order the PCB before the schematics and layout is finish. So during the week or 2 for the PCB to arrive, the milling option will have a finished prototype, probably allready tested etc. (we always have most parts in stock, so we do not lose time on that)


A modern design, with BGAs and fine-pitch parts, couldn't be made on a
milled board. And we can buy a lot of 2-day or 1-day turn PCBs for the
cost of a PCB milling machine.

Not to mention TPH connectors and perhaps capacitors.

I'd expect that a 3-day turn of a few pieces of proper boards
(multilayer, 5 mil features, PTH, blue solder mask, yellow silk,
routed to the right size, tested) would cost less than the labor
needed to make it on a milling machine. We usually order six or eight,
assuming that they will work and that several can be sent to
customers. Nearly all the time, they do work.

That's what we found. The milling machine sounds like a great idea
but it just sits there taking up space. It is a good source of copper
clad, though. My standard order is 25 boards. I should probably
double that for the board I'm pushing out now but if I run out of
them, I'll get to do another pass. ;-)

 

[krw]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 00:53:56 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
<klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 5:35:22 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

Milled PCBs are very limited. They take a lot of time to set up and
make, and they don't have vias, multiple layers, solder mask or
silkscreens or decent plating. If your time is worth anything, order a
few nice 4-layer boards from a quickturn PCB house.

We had an expensive PCB milling machine for a while, on loan. It
wasn't worth using.


Probably true for your line of work, if you don't use very high density circuit, then it's perfectly ok. Each time you save 100USD for a prototype PCB

$100?!!! You'd spend a *lot* more than that just babysitting the
milling machine and it takes a *lot* of $100s to buy one of those
things (the copper clad isn't free, either).

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Wednesday, July 8, 2015 at 4:23:54 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 00:58:15 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 5:52:03 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two places I've
worked. Neither had/has been used in the time I've been there. By
the time you get the layout done, it's easier and better to just get a
board made. They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We used it at least 4-5 times per week and it was great for producing fast prototyping. We could come up with an idea in the morning and have a working PCB in the afternoon. With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

Our products are 4-10 layers and have BGAs, chip-scale parts, and at
least hundreds of parts, sometime over a thousand. We don't prototype,
and couldn't prototype on a milled board anyhow.

We do occasionally make small breadboards to test one part or one
little circuit, where we don't have the data or tools to be confident.
We hack them on copperclad with adapters, or order a few real 4-layer
boards with PTHs and solder mask and silk and gold plating. Most
product designs go from concept to a manufactured, sellable rev A
without any physical breadboarding or protos.


We normally have 2 prototype series, and 2-4 revision series PCBs before full scale production. In the place where we used the milling machine, we could have 10 prototypes before the final solution

We have zero prototypes. Ten protos sounds like design by trial and
error to me.

Not exactly. Sometimes topologies can be proved by simulations, but I do not trust the simulation without backup real life measurements. For switch mode converters, often the simulations can give you the incorrect result.

So ten prototypes is not the same incremental design, but includes very different topologies. Good luck ordering PCBs for that, and using all your project time waiting for the PCBs (exaburation intended)

I'd argue that in most cases prototyping slows down development and
wastes engineering/tech hours and teaches bad habits. Might make sense
for microstrip filters or patch antennas, maybe, if you don't trust
your tools.

Well, if you are on very tight time schedule, then milling will be a way to speed up the process (no waiting for PCBs)

To speed up the time to production, eliminate all of the prototypes.

Ever heard of field tests and real life problems? (your statement only fits for extremely simple interfaces and fields of scope)

Cheers

Klaus

 

[Klaus Kragelund]

On Wednesday, July 8, 2015 at 4:33:21 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 01:05:54 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 10:34:01 PM UTC+2, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
Den tirsdag den 7. juli 2015 kl. 22.15.18 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 13:07:17 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

Den tirsdag den 7. juli 2015 kl. 20.57.23 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail..com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two places I've
worked. Neither had/has been used in the time I've been there.. By
the time you get the layout done, it's easier and better to just get a
board made. They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We used it at least 4-5 times per week and it was great for producing fast prototyping. We could come up with an idea in the morning and have a working PCB in the afternoon. With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

Anyone make such a milling machine priced for home hobbyist use?


you can get a Chinese router/engraver on ebay for ~$500 that would do the job but for hobby use it doesn't make much sense, you'll spend more in tool bits than it cost to get a prober pcb made and delivered in a few weeks

http://pcbshopper.com/ compares a number of cheap board houses

as an example, 10 pieces, 10x10cm, 2 layers, delivered with UPS express in 8 days ~$30


-Lasse

My only thought was, in the prototyping phase, I'm often prone to
screw-ups ;-)

doing ICs I would think you had learned to "measure twice, cut once"


But, for G-jobs, maybe I should not hurry and beat the scheme to death
with simulations... then order a board.


makes a lot more sense, you still have to do the design, schematic,
layout, find all the parts etc. so the week or two that it takes to
get a board doesn't add that much


You can't order the PCB before the schematics and layout is finish. So during the week or 2 for the PCB to arrive, the milling option will have a finished prototype, probably allready tested etc. (we always have most parts in stock, so we do not lose time on that)


A modern design, with BGAs and fine-pitch parts, couldn't be made on a
milled board. And we can buy a lot of 2-day or 1-day turn PCBs for the
cost of a PCB milling machine.

I'd expect that a 3-day turn of a few pieces of proper boards
(multilayer, 5 mil features, PTH, blue solder mask, yellow silk,
routed to the right size, tested) would cost less than the labor
needed to make it on a milling machine.

The labor for the milling is very low. A technician runs the machine. He sets it up, does other work while it runs, and shuts it down when finished. Probably 30 minutes of work. Even with insane Danish hourly wages that's less than 10USD.

Cheers

Klaus

 

[Lasse Langwadt Christense]

Den onsdag den 8. juli 2015 kl. 23.47.39 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 12:48:16 -0400, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 07:23:48 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 00:58:15 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 5:52:03 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two places I've
worked. Neither had/has been used in the time I've been there. By
the time you get the layout done, it's easier and better to just get a
board made. They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We used it at least 4-5 times per week and it was great for producing fast prototyping. We could come up with an idea in the morning and have a working PCB in the afternoon. With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

Our products are 4-10 layers and have BGAs, chip-scale parts, and at
least hundreds of parts, sometime over a thousand. We don't prototype,
and couldn't prototype on a milled board anyhow.

We do occasionally make small breadboards to test one part or one
little circuit, where we don't have the data or tools to be confident.
We hack them on copperclad with adapters, or order a few real 4-layer
boards with PTHs and solder mask and silk and gold plating. Most
product designs go from concept to a manufactured, sellable rev A
without any physical breadboarding or protos.


We normally have 2 prototype series, and 2-4 revision series PCBs before full scale production. In the place where we used the milling machine, we could have 10 prototypes before the final solution

We have zero prototypes. Ten protos sounds like design by trial and
error to me.

Or too often, specification by trial and error.

"No, that's not what I want."
"No, that's not quite right either."
"How about..."

Are you imitating my customers?



I'd argue that in most cases prototyping slows down development and
wastes engineering/tech hours and teaches bad habits. Might make sense
for microstrip filters or patch antennas, maybe, if you don't trust
your tools.

Well, if you are on very tight time schedule, then milling will be a way to speed up the process (no waiting for PCBs)

To speed up the time to production, eliminate all of the prototypes.

Eliminate customers and management and it may be possible.

But if rapid protyping is not available, you can just tell them that
each of their new ideas will take four months and another $70K to do.

and/or practice "defensive design" footprints and zero ohm resistors are
practically free, you can add a lot of flexibility for the price of a bit
of thinking

-Lasse

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 12:48:16 -0400, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 07:23:48 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 00:58:15 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 5:52:03 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two places I've
worked. Neither had/has been used in the time I've been there. By
the time you get the layout done, it's easier and better to just get a
board made. They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We used it at least 4-5 times per week and it was great for producing fast prototyping. We could come up with an idea in the morning and have a working PCB in the afternoon. With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

Our products are 4-10 layers and have BGAs, chip-scale parts, and at
least hundreds of parts, sometime over a thousand. We don't prototype,
and couldn't prototype on a milled board anyhow.

We do occasionally make small breadboards to test one part or one
little circuit, where we don't have the data or tools to be confident.
We hack them on copperclad with adapters, or order a few real 4-layer
boards with PTHs and solder mask and silk and gold plating. Most
product designs go from concept to a manufactured, sellable rev A
without any physical breadboarding or protos.


We normally have 2 prototype series, and 2-4 revision series PCBs before full scale production. In the place where we used the milling machine, we could have 10 prototypes before the final solution

We have zero prototypes. Ten protos sounds like design by trial and
error to me.

Or too often, specification by trial and error.

"No, that's not what I want."
"No, that's not quite right either."
"How about..."

Are you imitating my customers?

I'd argue that in most cases prototyping slows down development and
wastes engineering/tech hours and teaches bad habits. Might make sense
for microstrip filters or patch antennas, maybe, if you don't trust
your tools.

Well, if you are on very tight time schedule, then milling will be a way to speed up the process (no waiting for PCBs)

To speed up the time to production, eliminate all of the prototypes.

Eliminate customers and management and it may be possible.

But if rapid protyping is not available, you can just tell them that
each of their new ideas will take four months and another $70K to do.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 14:03:58 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
<klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, July 8, 2015 at 4:23:54 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 00:58:15 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 5:52:03 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two places I've
worked. Neither had/has been used in the time I've been there. By
the time you get the layout done, it's easier and better to just get a
board made. They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We used it at least 4-5 times per week and it was great for producing fast prototyping. We could come up with an idea in the morning and have a working PCB in the afternoon. With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

Our products are 4-10 layers and have BGAs, chip-scale parts, and at
least hundreds of parts, sometime over a thousand. We don't prototype,
and couldn't prototype on a milled board anyhow.

We do occasionally make small breadboards to test one part or one
little circuit, where we don't have the data or tools to be confident.
We hack them on copperclad with adapters, or order a few real 4-layer
boards with PTHs and solder mask and silk and gold plating. Most
product designs go from concept to a manufactured, sellable rev A
without any physical breadboarding or protos.


We normally have 2 prototype series, and 2-4 revision series PCBs before full scale production. In the place where we used the milling machine, we could have 10 prototypes before the final solution

We have zero prototypes. Ten protos sounds like design by trial and
error to me.

Not exactly. Sometimes topologies can be proved by simulations, but I do not trust the simulation without backup real life measurements. For switch mode converters, often the simulations can give you the incorrect result.

It's reasonable to breadboard a non-standard switcher. I wouldn't
breadboard a Simple Switcher or some other vanilla design.

This is a constant-current switcher that didn't work:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Power/D200_BB_4.JPG

I proudly note that it only took me ONE iteration to prove that it
wouldn't work.

So ten prototypes is not the same incremental design, but includes very different topologies. Good luck ordering PCBs for that, and using all your project time waiting for the PCBs (exaburation intended)

One Dremel is worth a hundred PCBs.

I'd argue that in most cases prototyping slows down development and
wastes engineering/tech hours and teaches bad habits. Might make sense
for microstrip filters or patch antennas, maybe, if you don't trust
your tools.

Well, if you are on very tight time schedule, then milling will be a way to speed up the process (no waiting for PCBs)

To speed up the time to production, eliminate all of the prototypes.


Ever heard of field tests and real life problems? (your statement only fits for extremely simple interfaces and fields of scope)

Most of our products can be sold as production-built rev A, with no
prototypes. They might have a kluge wire or two, and we might make
improvements later on, but we usually get paid for the rev A's. Few of
our products are simple. First-time-right is a culture. Multiple
prototypes is a culture, too.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 12:54:20 -0400, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 07:33:16 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 01:05:54 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 10:34:01 PM UTC+2, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
Den tirsdag den 7. juli 2015 kl. 22.15.18 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 13:07:17 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

Den tirsdag den 7. juli 2015 kl. 20.57.23 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two places I've
worked. Neither had/has been used in the time I've been there. By
the time you get the layout done, it's easier and better to just get a
board made. They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We used it at least 4-5 times per week and it was great for producing fast prototyping. We could come up with an idea in the morning and have a working PCB in the afternoon. With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

Anyone make such a milling machine priced for home hobbyist use?


you can get a Chinese router/engraver on ebay for ~$500 that would do the job but for hobby use it doesn't make much sense, you'll spend more in tool bits than it cost to get a prober pcb made and delivered in a few weeks

http://pcbshopper.com/ compares a number of cheap board houses

as an example, 10 pieces, 10x10cm, 2 layers, delivered with UPS express in 8 days ~$30


-Lasse

My only thought was, in the prototyping phase, I'm often prone to
screw-ups ;-)

doing ICs I would think you had learned to "measure twice, cut once"


But, for G-jobs, maybe I should not hurry and beat the scheme to death
with simulations... then order a board.


makes a lot more sense, you still have to do the design, schematic,
layout, find all the parts etc. so the week or two that it takes to
get a board doesn't add that much


You can't order the PCB before the schematics and layout is finish. So during the week or 2 for the PCB to arrive, the milling option will have a finished prototype, probably allready tested etc. (we always have most parts in stock, so we do not lose time on that)


A modern design, with BGAs and fine-pitch parts, couldn't be made on a
milled board. And we can buy a lot of 2-day or 1-day turn PCBs for the
cost of a PCB milling machine.

Not to mention TPH connectors and perhaps capacitors.

I'd expect that a 3-day turn of a few pieces of proper boards
(multilayer, 5 mil features, PTH, blue solder mask, yellow silk,
routed to the right size, tested) would cost less than the labor
needed to make it on a milling machine. We usually order six or eight,
assuming that they will work and that several can be sent to
customers. Nearly all the time, they do work.

That's what we found. The milling machine sounds like a great idea
but it just sits there taking up space. It is a good source of copper
clad, though. My standard order is 25 boards. I should probably
double that for the board I'm pushing out now but if I run out of
them, I'll get to do another pass. ;-)

Copperclad FR4 is cheap on ebay. Gold plated FR4 isn't cheap, but it
looks great.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 14:06:43 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
<klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, July 8, 2015 at 4:33:21 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 01:05:54 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 10:34:01 PM UTC+2, Lasse Langwadt Christensen wrote:
Den tirsdag den 7. juli 2015 kl. 22.15.18 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 13:07:17 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

Den tirsdag den 7. juli 2015 kl. 20.57.23 UTC+2 skrev Jim Thompson:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two places I've
worked. Neither had/has been used in the time I've been there. By
the time you get the layout done, it's easier and better to just get a
board made. They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We used it at least 4-5 times per week and it was great for producing fast prototyping. We could come up with an idea in the morning and have a working PCB in the afternoon. With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

Anyone make such a milling machine priced for home hobbyist use?


you can get a Chinese router/engraver on ebay for ~$500 that would do the job but for hobby use it doesn't make much sense, you'll spend more in tool bits than it cost to get a prober pcb made and delivered in a few weeks

http://pcbshopper.com/ compares a number of cheap board houses

as an example, 10 pieces, 10x10cm, 2 layers, delivered with UPS express in 8 days ~$30


-Lasse

My only thought was, in the prototyping phase, I'm often prone to
screw-ups ;-)

doing ICs I would think you had learned to "measure twice, cut once"


But, for G-jobs, maybe I should not hurry and beat the scheme to death
with simulations... then order a board.


makes a lot more sense, you still have to do the design, schematic,
layout, find all the parts etc. so the week or two that it takes to
get a board doesn't add that much


You can't order the PCB before the schematics and layout is finish. So during the week or 2 for the PCB to arrive, the milling option will have a finished prototype, probably allready tested etc. (we always have most parts in stock, so we do not lose time on that)


A modern design, with BGAs and fine-pitch parts, couldn't be made on a
milled board. And we can buy a lot of 2-day or 1-day turn PCBs for the
cost of a PCB milling machine.

I'd expect that a 3-day turn of a few pieces of proper boards
(multilayer, 5 mil features, PTH, blue solder mask, yellow silk,
routed to the right size, tested) would cost less than the labor
needed to make it on a milling machine.

The labor for the milling is very low. A technician runs the machine. He sets it up, does other work while it runs, and shuts it down when finished. Probably 30 minutes of work. Even with insane Danish hourly wages that's less than 10USD.

Cheers

Klaus

We don't have any engineering technicians. I've always found it
difficult to keep them busy.

You've still got to do the board layout and stuff. I just grab my
Dremel.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing precision measurement

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 7/8/2015 7:53 PM, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 14:03:58 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, July 8, 2015 at 4:23:54 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 00:58:15 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 5:52:03 PM UTC+2, John Larkin
wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms
scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they
want me to use it to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I
don't have one to use with the machine (incredibly,
there is no Windows software for this machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two
places I've worked. Neither had/has been used in the
time I've been there. By the time you get the layout
done, it's easier and better to just get a board made.
They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We
used it at least 4-5 times per week and it was great for
producing fast prototyping. We could come up with an idea
in the morning and have a working PCB in the afternoon.
With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

Our products are 4-10 layers and have BGAs, chip-scale parts,
and at least hundreds of parts, sometime over a thousand. We
don't prototype, and couldn't prototype on a milled board
anyhow.

We do occasionally make small breadboards to test one part or
one little circuit, where we don't have the data or tools to
be confident. We hack them on copperclad with adapters, or
order a few real 4-layer boards with PTHs and solder mask and
silk and gold plating. Most product designs go from concept
to a manufactured, sellable rev A without any physical
breadboarding or protos.


We normally have 2 prototype series, and 2-4 revision series
PCBs before full scale production. In the place where we used
the milling machine, we could have 10 prototypes before the
final solution

We have zero prototypes. Ten protos sounds like design by trial
and error to me.

Not exactly. Sometimes topologies can be proved by simulations, but
I do not trust the simulation without backup real life
measurements. For switch mode converters, often the simulations can
give you the incorrect result.

It's reasonable to breadboard a non-standard switcher. I wouldn't
breadboard a Simple Switcher or some other vanilla design.

This is a constant-current switcher that didn't work:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Power/D200_BB_4.JPG

I proudly note that it only took me ONE iteration to prove that it
wouldn't work.

You Californians are so all about bling. Who cares if it works?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 15:20:26 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

Den onsdag den 8. juli 2015 kl. 23.47.39 UTC+2 skrev John Larkin:
On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 12:48:16 -0400, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 07:23:48 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 00:58:15 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 5:52:03 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two places I've
worked. Neither had/has been used in the time I've been there. By
the time you get the layout done, it's easier and better to just get a
board made. They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We used it at least 4-5 times per week and it was great for producing fast prototyping. We could come up with an idea in the morning and have a working PCB in the afternoon. With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

Our products are 4-10 layers and have BGAs, chip-scale parts, and at
least hundreds of parts, sometime over a thousand. We don't prototype,
and couldn't prototype on a milled board anyhow.

We do occasionally make small breadboards to test one part or one
little circuit, where we don't have the data or tools to be confident.
We hack them on copperclad with adapters, or order a few real 4-layer
boards with PTHs and solder mask and silk and gold plating. Most
product designs go from concept to a manufactured, sellable rev A
without any physical breadboarding or protos.


We normally have 2 prototype series, and 2-4 revision series PCBs before full scale production. In the place where we used the milling machine, we could have 10 prototypes before the final solution

We have zero prototypes. Ten protos sounds like design by trial and
error to me.

Or too often, specification by trial and error.

"No, that's not what I want."
"No, that's not quite right either."
"How about..."

Are you imitating my customers?



I'd argue that in most cases prototyping slows down development and
wastes engineering/tech hours and teaches bad habits. Might make sense
for microstrip filters or patch antennas, maybe, if you don't trust
your tools.

Well, if you are on very tight time schedule, then milling will be a way to speed up the process (no waiting for PCBs)

To speed up the time to production, eliminate all of the prototypes.

Eliminate customers and management and it may be possible.

But if rapid protyping is not available, you can just tell them that
each of their new ideas will take four months and another $70K to do.


and/or practice "defensive design" footprints and zero ohm resistors are
practically free, you can add a lot of flexibility for the price of a bit
of thinking

-Lasse

Sure, we do that in places. FPGAs and software add a lot of
flexibility, too. But careful design and design reviews can prevent
most hardware design errors. Building a prototype is a terrible way to
find dumb mistakes.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[John Larkin]

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 21:17:33 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 7/8/2015 7:53 PM, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 14:03:58 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, July 8, 2015 at 4:23:54 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 00:58:15 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 5:52:03 PM UTC+2, John Larkin
wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms
scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they
want me to use it to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I
don't have one to use with the machine (incredibly,
there is no Windows software for this machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two
places I've worked. Neither had/has been used in the
time I've been there. By the time you get the layout
done, it's easier and better to just get a board made.
They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We
used it at least 4-5 times per week and it was great for
producing fast prototyping. We could come up with an idea
in the morning and have a working PCB in the afternoon.
With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

Our products are 4-10 layers and have BGAs, chip-scale parts,
and at least hundreds of parts, sometime over a thousand. We
don't prototype, and couldn't prototype on a milled board
anyhow.

We do occasionally make small breadboards to test one part or
one little circuit, where we don't have the data or tools to
be confident. We hack them on copperclad with adapters, or
order a few real 4-layer boards with PTHs and solder mask and
silk and gold plating. Most product designs go from concept
to a manufactured, sellable rev A without any physical
breadboarding or protos.


We normally have 2 prototype series, and 2-4 revision series
PCBs before full scale production. In the place where we used
the milling machine, we could have 10 prototypes before the
final solution

We have zero prototypes. Ten protos sounds like design by trial
and error to me.

Not exactly. Sometimes topologies can be proved by simulations, but
I do not trust the simulation without backup real life
measurements. For switch mode converters, often the simulations can
give you the incorrect result.

It's reasonable to breadboard a non-standard switcher. I wouldn't
breadboard a Simple Switcher or some other vanilla design.

This is a constant-current switcher that didn't work:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/53724080/Circuits/Power/D200_BB_4.JPG

I proudly note that it only took me ONE iteration to prove that it
wouldn't work.

You Californians are so all about bling. Who cares if it works?

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

It looked really nice in simulation, too.

The production version is linear.


--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc
picosecond timing laser drivers and controllers

jlarkin att highlandtechnology dott com
http://www.highlandtechnology.com

 

[krw]

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 14:47:34 -0700, John Larkin
<jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 12:48:16 -0400, krw <krw@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Wed, 08 Jul 2015 07:23:48 -0700, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandtechnology.com> wrote:

On Wed, 8 Jul 2015 00:58:15 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 5:52:03 PM UTC+2, John Larkin wrote:
On Tue, 7 Jul 2015 00:48:01 -0700 (PDT), Klaus Kragelund
klauskvik@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Tuesday, July 7, 2015 at 2:54:30 AM UTC+2, krw wrote:
On Mon, 06 Jul 2015 16:23:07 -0700, sms <scharf.steven@geemail.com
wrote:

The place I'm contracting has one of these:
https://othermachine.co/othermill/features/> and they want me to use it
to build some prototype boards.

They're going to bring over a Mac tomorrow since I don't have one to use
with the machine (incredibly, there is no Windows software for this
machine).

Hoping it can do 0.05" spacing well enough.

There has been a tool something like this in the last two places I've
worked. Neither had/has been used in the time I've been there. By
the time you get the layout done, it's easier and better to just get a
board made. They're a waste, IMO.

The last place I worked we had a LKPD milling machine. We used it at least 4-5 times per week and it was great for producing fast prototyping. We could come up with an idea in the morning and have a working PCB in the afternoon. With PCB prototyping that takes a week

Cheers

Klaus

Our products are 4-10 layers and have BGAs, chip-scale parts, and at
least hundreds of parts, sometime over a thousand. We don't prototype,
and couldn't prototype on a milled board anyhow.

We do occasionally make small breadboards to test one part or one
little circuit, where we don't have the data or tools to be confident.
We hack them on copperclad with adapters, or order a few real 4-layer
boards with PTHs and solder mask and silk and gold plating. Most
product designs go from concept to a manufactured, sellable rev A
without any physical breadboarding or protos.


We normally have 2 prototype series, and 2-4 revision series PCBs before full scale production. In the place where we used the milling machine, we could have 10 prototypes before the final solution

We have zero prototypes. Ten protos sounds like design by trial and
error to me.

Or too often, specification by trial and error.

"No, that's not what I want."
"No, that's not quite right either."
"How about..."

Are you imitating my customers?

Nah, they're all the same.

I'd argue that in most cases prototyping slows down development and
wastes engineering/tech hours and teaches bad habits. Might make sense
for microstrip filters or patch antennas, maybe, if you don't trust
your tools.

Well, if you are on very tight time schedule, then milling will be a way to speed up the process (no waiting for PCBs)

To speed up the time to production, eliminate all of the prototypes.

Eliminate customers and management and it may be possible.

But if rapid protyping is not available, you can just tell them that
each of their new ideas will take four months and another $70K to do.

Management has lots of money. $70K might pay for the hardware,
certainly not my time.