What happened to Car Radio Antennas?...

P

Phil Allison

Guest
Peter Wanker is an utter ASSHOLE wrote:

--------------------------------------------------------------
Quick question, Phil: If you are so smart, why aren\'t you rich?

** Cos way too many greedy, ruthless & dishonest folk have it.

FOAD you stinking pig.


....... Phil
 
R

Rob

Guest
Jeroni Paul <JERONI.PAUL@terra.es> wrote:
Rob wrote:
But I have a French car and in France there are
several LW transmitters (or at least, there were). They tend to have
a longer range and are less affected by propagation changes. And of
course they often use ridiculous amounts of power and large antennas.

But it has long been discontinued. Too costly, and replaced by Internet.


The France LW station at 162kHz did broadcast the programs of France Inter radio AND the current time encoded in its carrier for radio controlled clocks. I always tought that was an efficient use of resources. That was until 2016 when they stopped transmitting the radio but kept transmitting the time and still do.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3D8XBOXjts

Since they keep the transmitter operating I think they could broadcast a radio, now is just a wasted resource. I guess it probably comes down to the radio not willing to pay for that transmission, still they could offer some public service.

I have a car radio with LW and autotunning and it stops at 162, but only background noise comes out. It does a good job of autotunning LW and MW, hardly ever stops on useless noises.

Yes that was a clever system. But it also shows an unfortunate depedency...

However, the power was originally 2,000,000 Watts and it has since been
reduced to 800,000 Watts and of course the mains power consumption has
been reduced even more because of course the strong AM modulation is no
longer present (the time is transmitted in PSK).

Presumably the new power level has been determined \"experimentally\" to
have a reliable clock synchronization for existing clocks on the system,
however the German time transmitter DCF-77 operates with only 50kW
on 77.5 kHz so one would think that a comparable power level would
be sufficient for 162 kHz as well. But of course the exising installs
may have gotten accustomed to the earlier level and the operator may
be forced to maintain a relatively high power.

The British LW transmitter Droitwich was originally on 200 kHz and its
frequency was also very accurate and was sometimes used as a reference
frequency e.g. to calibrate equipment or to stabilize oscillators.
At the time of the shift to the 9 kHz raster it moved to 198 kHz which
was of course inconvenient for those users. However it is still as
stable as before. I have seen mod circuits at that time that e.g.
used a PLL to lock a 200 kHz oscillator to the 198 kHz carrier using
a divide-by-100 and a mixer to do 200-2 => 198 kHz and lock to that.

At this time they also transmit data in PSK, I don\'t think that was the
case in those early days (I\'m not sure). This is probably the reason
it is still on air, normally such a station would have been shut down
by now but such extra features may make systems dependent on it.
(most other MW stations in the UK have been shut down by now)
 
P

Peter W.

Guest
> ** Cos way too many greedy, ruthless & dishonest folk have it.

Kinda-sorta suggests that you should fit right in, does it not?

Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
 
R

Ralph Mowery

Guest
In article <slrnsga61p.vio.nomail@xs9.xs4all.nl>, nomail@example.com
says...
The British LW transmitter Droitwich was originally on 200 kHz and its
frequency was also very accurate and was sometimes used as a reference
frequency e.g. to calibrate equipment or to stabilize oscillators.
At the time of the shift to the 9 kHz raster it moved to 198 kHz which
was of course inconvenient for those users. However it is still as
stable as before. I have seen mod circuits at that time that e.g.
used a PLL to lock a 200 kHz oscillator to the 198 kHz carrier using
a divide-by-100 and a mixer to do 200-2 => 198 kHz and lock to that.

I think it is still being done due to the older equipment as to using
some very low frequencies ( below 500 kHz) to calibrate frequencys and
clocks.

With the GPS systems I would think that they would be used by most
everything now and probably more accurate. I use them to calibrate my
radio service monitors for frequency. I can buy a $ 20 receiver board
and hook it to my oscilloscope and service monitor and set it to better
accurecy than the normal drift of the monitor after a week .

I don\'t know what the signal would be like in other parts of the world,
but the US puts out standard frequency and time sgnals on 2.5, 5,10, 15,
maybe 20 MHz. There are a couple of frequencies in Canada around 7.3
and 14 something MHz for time.
Most cell phones are probably accurate to a second or so.
 
P

Phil Allison

Guest
Peter Wanker is a Nut Care Asshole wrote:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
** Cos way too many greedy, ruthless & dishonest folk have it.

Kinda-sorta suggests that you should fit right in, does it not?

** It suggests the *direct opposite* - you fucking MORON

BTW:

Feeling a bit ill today, tired, fevery and achy ?
Finding it hard to breathe ?

Covid is a bitch at your age.


....... Phil
 
B

Brian Gregory

Guest
On 28/07/2021 05:05, Phil Allison wrote:
Brian Gregory wrote:
===============

Phil Allison wrote:

you may have noticed that few modern cars have any visible AM/FM antennas these days.
Many have a \"shark fin\" antenna on the roof for GPS and possibly 4G cell phones - frequencies used are similar.
Others have a short whip antenna somewhere, not much good for AM.

I don\'t think a loop aerial on a car window would work at all well
surrounded by the much bigger thinker more conductive loop consisting of
the metal body of the vehicle in which the window is fitted.

** Not true.
AM loops sense the magnetic field of the incoming EM wave.
Some are made from co-ax with the outer shield grounded to eliminate the E field.
Less static noise that way.
The nearby car bodywork has little effect on a window loop.

It wouldn\'t be just nearby or just shielding it would form a shorted turn.

With shielded loops the shield is not connected all round to form a
shorted turn.

If you can\'t see that you\'re not qualified to discuss this at all.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).
 
B

Brian Gregory

Guest
On 28/07/2021 07:58, Jeff Layman wrote:
Perhaps that\'s the difference between the USA and Europe. I can\'t
remember seeing a car radio with MW here in the UK in at least the last
10 years - probably more like 20. Anyway, I miss the standard repair
sometimes seen here many years ago for telescopic antennas - a
\"reshaped\" wire coat hanger!

Yes I had forgotten I had ventured out of the uk.* newsgroups in to
international territory. :/

--
Brian Gregory (in England).
 
B

Brian Gregory

Guest
On 28/07/2021 07:58, Jeff Layman wrote:
Perhaps that\'s the difference between the USA and Europe. I can\'t
remember seeing a car radio with MW here in the UK in at least the last
10 years - probably more like 20. Anyway, I miss the standard repair
sometimes seen here many years ago for telescopic antennas - a
\"reshaped\" wire coat hanger!

Yes I had forgotten I had ventured out of the uk.* newsgroups in to
international territory. :/

--
Brian Gregory (in England).
 
B

Brian Gregory

Guest
On 29/07/2021 12:35, Rob wrote:
Energy is expensive here and a typical radio station cannot pay the 100kW-1MW
power consumption of an AM transmitter.

AM transmitters with over 50kW output are not used in the US at all.
(There were a handful of experimental ones at one stage in the past)

Yes in Europe higher powers were not uncommon, a few were as high as 1MW.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).
 
O

ohg...@gmail.com

Guest
On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:42:21 AM UTC-4, Peter W. wrote:
We have Silly.
We have Stupid.
Now we must add Pathetic.

Quick question, Phil: If you are so smart, why aren\'t you rich?
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

You\'re going to feel mighty silly when Phil does become rich. In fact, he will be Philthy rich as soon as he can get his prototype \"unlimited range\" over-unity Prius running..
 
O

ohg...@gmail.com

Guest
On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:42:21 AM UTC-4, Peter W. wrote:
We have Silly.
We have Stupid.
Now we must add Pathetic.

Quick question, Phil: If you are so smart, why aren\'t you rich?
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA

You\'re going to feel mighty silly when Phil does become rich. In fact, he will be Philthy rich as soon as he can get his prototype \"unlimited range\" over-unity Prius running..
 
B

Brian Gregory

Guest
On 29/07/2021 05:18, Phil Allison wrote:
Rob wrote:
FM *is* used as a band name here, although of course it formally is
just as wrong as AM.

** Wot drivel.

Again, it is the only band reserved for high quality FM broadcasting.

But it\'s not called \"high quality FM broadcasting\", it\'s just called \"FM\".

What about all the other frequencies where narrow band FM is used for
walkie-talkies, remote controls etc. etc.?

--
Brian Gregory (in England).
 
B

Brian Gregory

Guest
On 30/07/2021 03:14, Phil Allison wrote:
> Only dumb, ASD sufferers treat words as if they are math.

How insulting to people with ASD.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).
 
B

Brian Gregory

Guest
On 30/07/2021 03:14, Phil Allison wrote:
> Only dumb, ASD sufferers treat words as if they are math.

How insulting to people with ASD.

--
Brian Gregory (in England).
 
P

Peter W.

Guest
On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:57:30 AM UTC-4, ohg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:42:21 AM UTC-4, Peter W. wrote:
We have Silly.
We have Stupid.
Now we must add Pathetic.

Quick question, Phil: If you are so smart, why aren\'t you rich?
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
You\'re going to feel mighty silly when Phil does become rich. In fact, he will be Philthy rich as soon as he can get his prototype \"unlimited range\" over-unity Prius running..

Interesting-if-true. I doubt if the Drongo from Down-Under has a driver\'s license, much less a vehicle of any nature with the possible exception of a
spavined two-or-three wheeler... At the same time, were he not obsessed with counting pennies and imagined slights, it may improve his mood, So, more \'power\' to him.

Peter Wieck
Melroes Park, PA
 
P

Peter W.

Guest
On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:57:30 AM UTC-4, ohg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:42:21 AM UTC-4, Peter W. wrote:
We have Silly.
We have Stupid.
Now we must add Pathetic.

Quick question, Phil: If you are so smart, why aren\'t you rich?
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
You\'re going to feel mighty silly when Phil does become rich. In fact, he will be Philthy rich as soon as he can get his prototype \"unlimited range\" over-unity Prius running..

Interesting-if-true. I doubt if the Drongo from Down-Under has a driver\'s license, much less a vehicle of any nature with the possible exception of a
spavined two-or-three wheeler... At the same time, were he not obsessed with counting pennies and imagined slights, it may improve his mood, So, more \'power\' to him.

Peter Wieck
Melroes Park, PA
 
R

Rob

Guest
Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net> wrote:
In article <slrnsga61p.vio.nomail@xs9.xs4all.nl>, nomail@example.com
says...

The British LW transmitter Droitwich was originally on 200 kHz and its
frequency was also very accurate and was sometimes used as a reference
frequency e.g. to calibrate equipment or to stabilize oscillators.
At the time of the shift to the 9 kHz raster it moved to 198 kHz which
was of course inconvenient for those users. However it is still as
stable as before. I have seen mod circuits at that time that e.g.
used a PLL to lock a 200 kHz oscillator to the 198 kHz carrier using
a divide-by-100 and a mixer to do 200-2 => 198 kHz and lock to that.



I think it is still being done due to the older equipment as to using
some very low frequencies ( below 500 kHz) to calibrate frequencys and
clocks.

With the GPS systems I would think that they would be used by most
everything now and probably more accurate. I use them to calibrate my
radio service monitors for frequency. I can buy a $ 20 receiver board
and hook it to my oscilloscope and service monitor and set it to better
accurecy than the normal drift of the monitor after a week .

I don\'t know what the signal would be like in other parts of the world,
but the US puts out standard frequency and time sgnals on 2.5, 5,10, 15,
maybe 20 MHz. There are a couple of frequencies in Canada around 7.3
and 14 something MHz for time.
Most cell phones are probably accurate to a second or so.

Well as you say, with GPS it is not really relevant anymore.
The LW transmitters may be very stable but the propagation adds jitter
and the interference from local equipment is troublesome as well.

It is easiest today to get a GPSDO that outputs 10 MHz as a reference
for your service equipment, there are devices in different price and
performance levels.

I do have a Leo Bodnar GPS locked oscillator that I can program to
output any frequency and sometimes use to calibrate receivers etc.
Very cheap.
(it does not only use NAVSTAR but also GLONASS and GALILEO)
 
R

Rob

Guest
Ralph Mowery <rmowery42@charter.net> wrote:
In article <slrnsga61p.vio.nomail@xs9.xs4all.nl>, nomail@example.com
says...

The British LW transmitter Droitwich was originally on 200 kHz and its
frequency was also very accurate and was sometimes used as a reference
frequency e.g. to calibrate equipment or to stabilize oscillators.
At the time of the shift to the 9 kHz raster it moved to 198 kHz which
was of course inconvenient for those users. However it is still as
stable as before. I have seen mod circuits at that time that e.g.
used a PLL to lock a 200 kHz oscillator to the 198 kHz carrier using
a divide-by-100 and a mixer to do 200-2 => 198 kHz and lock to that.



I think it is still being done due to the older equipment as to using
some very low frequencies ( below 500 kHz) to calibrate frequencys and
clocks.

With the GPS systems I would think that they would be used by most
everything now and probably more accurate. I use them to calibrate my
radio service monitors for frequency. I can buy a $ 20 receiver board
and hook it to my oscilloscope and service monitor and set it to better
accurecy than the normal drift of the monitor after a week .

I don\'t know what the signal would be like in other parts of the world,
but the US puts out standard frequency and time sgnals on 2.5, 5,10, 15,
maybe 20 MHz. There are a couple of frequencies in Canada around 7.3
and 14 something MHz for time.
Most cell phones are probably accurate to a second or so.

Well as you say, with GPS it is not really relevant anymore.
The LW transmitters may be very stable but the propagation adds jitter
and the interference from local equipment is troublesome as well.

It is easiest today to get a GPSDO that outputs 10 MHz as a reference
for your service equipment, there are devices in different price and
performance levels.

I do have a Leo Bodnar GPS locked oscillator that I can program to
output any frequency and sometimes use to calibrate receivers etc.
Very cheap.
(it does not only use NAVSTAR but also GLONASS and GALILEO)
 
G

Guy Patterson

Guest
On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 10:59:48 AM UTC-4, Peter W. wrote:
On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:57:30 AM UTC-4, ohg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:42:21 AM UTC-4, Peter W. wrote:
We have Silly.
We have Stupid.
Now we must add Pathetic.

Quick question, Phil: If you are so smart, why aren\'t you rich?
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
You\'re going to feel mighty silly when Phil does become rich. In fact, he will be Philthy rich as soon as he can get his prototype \"unlimited range\" over-unity Prius running..
Interesting-if-true. I doubt if the Drongo from Down-Under has a driver\'s license, much less a vehicle of any nature with the possible exception of a
spavined two-or-three wheeler... At the same time, were he not obsessed with counting pennies and imagined slights, it may improve his mood, So, more \'power\' to him.

Peter Wieck
Melroes Park, PA

ha!, had to google drongo. I\'m guessing you\'re going by the slang and not the bird although I guess either would fit phil.
 
G

Guy Patterson

Guest
On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 10:59:48 AM UTC-4, Peter W. wrote:
On Tuesday, September 7, 2021 at 9:57:30 AM UTC-4, ohg...@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, September 6, 2021 at 10:42:21 AM UTC-4, Peter W. wrote:
We have Silly.
We have Stupid.
Now we must add Pathetic.

Quick question, Phil: If you are so smart, why aren\'t you rich?
Peter Wieck
Melrose Park, PA
You\'re going to feel mighty silly when Phil does become rich. In fact, he will be Philthy rich as soon as he can get his prototype \"unlimited range\" over-unity Prius running..
Interesting-if-true. I doubt if the Drongo from Down-Under has a driver\'s license, much less a vehicle of any nature with the possible exception of a
spavined two-or-three wheeler... At the same time, were he not obsessed with counting pennies and imagined slights, it may improve his mood, So, more \'power\' to him.

Peter Wieck
Melroes Park, PA

ha!, had to google drongo. I\'m guessing you\'re going by the slang and not the bird although I guess either would fit phil.
 

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