tracking use tax (only slightly OT)

[Walter Harley]

A question about managing the accounting of my small electronics business -
perhaps one of you has an analogous situation and can help me.

I have a very small electronics manufacturing business in the state of
Washington (USA). I design stuff, build it, and sell it. In Washington, I
am obligated to pay state sales tax on items I purchase for my own use. If
I purchase an item from out of state (e.g., from Digikey or Mouser), the
seller does not collect sales tax; but I am still obligated to pay "use
tax", which is the same as sales tax, on items I use. These taxes only
apply if I am the actual user of the item; if I purchase something and then
resell it, or include it as a component in something I resell, I am not
obligated to pay tax on it.

Of course, a lot of what I purchase is components: resistors, capacitors,
etc. These could go into something I manufacture, or they could be used
in-house for prototyping. I also sometimes purchase dead equipment, which I
eventually repair and either resell or use. Either way, it is hard to know
at time of purchase how something will be used. I am only obliged to pay
use tax when I actually use the item, not when I purchase it.

So, my legal obligation is to track whenever I use (in-house) an item that I
didn't pay sales tax on, and then to calculate how much the items cost and
pay use tax on that amount. This is a logistical nightmare - did that
resistor I pulled out of my parts bin cost $0.002 plus some pro-rated amount
of the shipping for the order it came as part of? Or did it come in a
bundle of parts I bought at the surplus store, and already paid sales tax
on? What do I do when I change a design and some parts that were originally
used for manufacturing end up in my surplus bins?

So: for those of you who must pay use tax, how do YOU track your use tax
obligation? Do you have an inventory system that supports this? Do you
just estimate, and if so, on what basis?

 

[John Larkin]

On 19 Mar 2004 18:39:30 GMT, "Walter Harley"
<walterh@cafewalterNOSPAM.com> wrote:

A question about managing the accounting of my small electronics business -
perhaps one of you has an analogous situation and can help me.

I have a very small electronics manufacturing business in the state of
Washington (USA). I design stuff, build it, and sell it. In Washington, I
am obligated to pay state sales tax on items I purchase for my own use. If
I purchase an item from out of state (e.g., from Digikey or Mouser), the
seller does not collect sales tax; but I am still obligated to pay "use
tax", which is the same as sales tax, on items I use. These taxes only
apply if I am the actual user of the item; if I purchase something and then
resell it, or include it as a component in something I resell, I am not
obligated to pay tax on it.

Of course, a lot of what I purchase is components: resistors, capacitors,
etc. These could go into something I manufacture, or they could be used
in-house for prototyping. I also sometimes purchase dead equipment, which I
eventually repair and either resell or use. Either way, it is hard to know
at time of purchase how something will be used. I am only obliged to pay
use tax when I actually use the item, not when I purchase it.

So, my legal obligation is to track whenever I use (in-house) an item that I
didn't pay sales tax on, and then to calculate how much the items cost and
pay use tax on that amount. This is a logistical nightmare - did that
resistor I pulled out of my parts bin cost $0.002 plus some pro-rated amount
of the shipping for the order it came as part of? Or did it come in a
bundle of parts I bought at the surplus store, and already paid sales tax
on? What do I do when I change a design and some parts that were originally
used for manufacturing end up in my surplus bins?

So: for those of you who must pay use tax, how do YOU track your use tax
obligation? Do you have an inventory system that supports this? Do you
just estimate, and if so, on what basis?

We don't track each part... that's impossible. We pay taxes on a thing
if it's more likely we'll use it, and don't if it's most likely to be
resold, and we decide when we place the PO; the PO is the only paper
record of the decision, and that's what a CPA or a state auditor can
look at. It averages out, I guess. We've been audited a couple of
times by the Ca state tax folks, and they seemed happy. They seem to
like clear categories: office supplies, furniture, computers, test
equipment are taxable, parts usually aren't. Things like sample kits
for the lab, we pay tax on, even though some of those parts may wind
up in a sellable product.

Paying tax on shipping is dumb, but we have to do it. It supposedly
adds value to the parts. If I shipped them back and forth coast to
coast a bunch of times, would they become more valuable?

When I first called to get a resale license, the guy asked me what I
did with parts. I told him we inspected them, sometimes tested them,
built them into products, and sold the products. He said "well, isn't
testing 'using'?" so I hung up and, next call, got somebody else.

John

 

[Active8]

On 19 Mar 2004 18:39:30 GMT, Walter Harley wrote:

A question about managing the accounting of my small electronics business -
perhaps one of you has an analogous situation and can help me.

I have a very small electronics manufacturing business in the state of
Washington (USA). I design stuff, build it, and sell it. In Washington, I
am obligated to pay state sales tax on items I purchase for my own use. If
I purchase an item from out of state (e.g., from Digikey or Mouser), the
seller does not collect sales tax; but I am still obligated to pay "use
tax", which is the same as sales tax, on items I use. These taxes only
apply if I am the actual user of the item; if I purchase something and then
resell it, or include it as a component in something I resell, I am not
obligated to pay tax on it.

Of course, a lot of what I purchase is components: resistors, capacitors,
etc. These could go into something I manufacture, or they could be used
in-house for prototyping. I also sometimes purchase dead equipment, which I
eventually repair and either resell or use. Either way, it is hard to know
at time of purchase how something will be used. I am only obliged to pay
use tax when I actually use the item, not when I purchase it.

So, my legal obligation is to track whenever I use (in-house) an item that I
didn't pay sales tax on, and then to calculate how much the items cost and
pay use tax on that amount. This is a logistical nightmare - did that
resistor I pulled out of my parts bin cost $0.002 plus some pro-rated amount
of the shipping for the order it came as part of? Or did it come in a
bundle of parts I bought at the surplus store, and already paid sales tax
on? What do I do when I change a design and some parts that were originally
used for manufacturing end up in my surplus bins?

So: for those of you who must pay use tax, how do YOU track your use tax
obligation? Do you have an inventory system that supports this? Do you
just estimate, and if so, on what basis?

You might not be able to get an accountant to work as cheaply (or as
expensively) as I have from time to time, but you shouldn't have a
hard time getting one to give you a copy of some spreadsheets. An
accountant would be more than happy to set up whatever spreadsheet
works best for your biz. It'll save him time at tax time and save
you money.

And he'll give you a definite answer to your question.

Did you get the thump out of that guitar preamp?
--
Best Regards,
Mike

 

[Robert Reimiller]

"Tim Wescott" <tim@wescottnospamdesign.com> wrote in message news:<105moqriffmmu7e@corp.supernews.com>...

I am sooo glad that Oregon hasn't instituted a sales tax yet. We're holding
the barbarians off at the gate.

I'm now in Oregon, but have lived in (and done business) in
California, Vermont, and New Mexico, all which had sales & use taxes.
I wonder if the people who propose a sales tax in Oregon realize what
a pain in the butt it is for business, especially those who might be
sending things to different parts of the state.

In Vermont it was pretty simple, one sales tax rate for the whole
state, but in California (at least when I was there) and New Mexico
each area had a different rate since once you have the system in
place, it gets used as a means to finance local "pet projects".

I did get audited when I was in California, they simply took a sample
of sales (most of which were out of state/country, so no tax due), but
mostly what they were concerned with were use taxes. They want to make
sure that when you buy something out of state for your own business
use that you paid use tax. They didn't care about the nickel and dime
stuff.

Bob

 

[Walter Harley]

"Active8" <reply2group@ndbbm.net> wrote in message
news:1gr713tpwozcy.dlg@news.individual.net...

You might not be able to get an accountant to work as cheaply (or as
expensively) as I have from time to time, but you shouldn't have a
hard time getting one to give you a copy of some spreadsheets. An
accountant would be more than happy to set up whatever spreadsheet
works best for your biz. It'll save him time at tax time and save
you money.

I asked my accountant about this, but he didn't have any really good
solutions. I think you sort of have to understand how an electronics shop
works to understand the issue.

Did you get the thump out of that guitar preamp?

Set it aside to work on other projects. Do have some ideas - one being to
generate a negative control voltage for the MOSFETs using a little
oscillator and voltage doubler type circuit, which seems to work really
nicely, and the other being to use latching relays, which I managed to find
for a lot less money than I thought. But there's a time for R&D and a time
for revenue, and I needed some of the latter

-w

 

[Active8]

On 20 Mar 2004 17:41:49 GMT, Walter Harley wrote:

"Active8" <reply2group@ndbbm.net> wrote in message
news:1gr713tpwozcy.dlg@news.individual.net...
You might not be able to get an accountant to work as cheaply (or as
expensively) as I have from time to time, but you shouldn't have a
hard time getting one to give you a copy of some spreadsheets. An
accountant would be more than happy to set up whatever spreadsheet
works best for your biz. It'll save him time at tax time and save
you money.

I asked my accountant about this, but he didn't have any really good
solutions. I think you sort of have to understand how an electronics shop
works to understand the issue.

You need a new accountant. Check other electronic shops for one.
Maybe the owner will fill you in a bit, too.

Did you get the thump out of that guitar preamp?

Set it aside to work on other projects. Do have some ideas - one being to
generate a negative control voltage for the MOSFETs using a little
oscillator and voltage doubler type circuit, which seems to work really
nicely, and the other being to use latching relays, which I managed to find
for a lot less money than I thought. But there's a time for R&D and a time
for revenue, and I needed some of the latter

I saw an article on amp thumping and it confirmed my suspicion about
those caps in the preamp. Make sure they and your opamp inputs have
a DC path to ground. Bet you won't need a switch then. Time? ugly
bug solder some resistors in there next time you have a few minutes.

--
Best Regards,
Mike

 

[Active8]

On 21 Mar 2004 01:01:05 GMT, Walter Harley wrote:

"Active8" <reply2group@ndbbm.net> wrote in message
news:z1njo7el4h4q.dlg@news.individual.net...
I saw an article on amp thumping and it confirmed my suspicion about
those caps in the preamp. Make sure they and your opamp inputs have
a DC path to ground. Bet you won't need a switch then. Time? ugly
bug solder some resistors in there next time you have a few minutes.

You'll recall that the issue involves switching the power to a (black box)
preamp on or off. Since these things are powered by a single supply,
capacitor or no, DC path or no, there's going to be a thump when the power
turns on or off.

If that were the case, all the battery powered effects boxes would
thump, so I don't by this.

The output (before DC blocking cap) is at Vcc/2; when the
power's switched on, it's got to get there from 0.

But we haven't determined that it's the output cap causing the
problem. You can always give it a path to ground, too.

My hope had been to ramp the power on gradually enough to avoid an audible
thump. But the longer I ramp, the more of the first note I lose; and given
that the preamp is a black box, I can't cut it close enough. Gotta be able
to mute the output.

Look at it this way. If my car engine is making a funny noise I have
3 choices

1. Find the problem and fix it.
2. Don't drive. Stay home.
3. Team the horses and pull the car.

You're trying to pull the car.
--
Best Regards,
Mike

 

[R. Steve Walz]

Walter Harley wrote:

A question about managing the accounting of my small electronics business -
perhaps one of you has an analogous situation and can help me.

I have a very small electronics manufacturing business in the state of
Washington (USA). I design stuff, build it, and sell it. In Washington, I
am obligated to pay state sales tax on items I purchase for my own use. If
I purchase an item from out of state (e.g., from Digikey or Mouser), the
seller does not collect sales tax; but I am still obligated to pay "use
tax", which is the same as sales tax, on items I use. These taxes only
apply if I am the actual user of the item; if I purchase something and then
resell it, or include it as a component in something I resell, I am not
obligated to pay tax on it.

Of course, a lot of what I purchase is components: resistors, capacitors,
etc. These could go into something I manufacture, or they could be used
in-house for prototyping. I also sometimes purchase dead equipment, which I
eventually repair and either resell or use. Either way, it is hard to know
at time of purchase how something will be used. I am only obliged to pay
use tax when I actually use the item, not when I purchase it.

So, my legal obligation is to track whenever I use (in-house) an item that I
didn't pay sales tax on, and then to calculate how much the items cost and
pay use tax on that amount. This is a logistical nightmare - did that
resistor I pulled out of my parts bin cost $0.002 plus some pro-rated amount
of the shipping for the order it came as part of? Or did it come in a
bundle of parts I bought at the surplus store, and already paid sales tax
on? What do I do when I change a design and some parts that were originally
used for manufacturing end up in my surplus bins?

So: for those of you who must pay use tax, how do YOU track your use tax
obligation? Do you have an inventory system that supports this? Do you
just estimate, and if so, on what basis?
--------------

Unless you have a specific line product with a stable parts list that
can be isolated, I think most of us just pay the tax and pass that cost
on to the customer! It's too much of a pain in the ass otherwise.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

 

[j.b. miller]

I'd be interested to know if you guys south of the 49th pay sales tax on the
rebated money from a item you purchase with a 'coupon'.
Up here in Canada, I just paid $40 for a 128MB SDRAM stick. GST (Governement
Screwyou Tax of 7%) was $2.80. However I get back $30 from the MFR( AZEN in
this case). Making the acutal selling price just $10.
Now IF the in store price was $10, the Feds would only get .70 in GST NOT
the $2.80.
Out of my pocket the cost of RAM was only $10 BUT the FEDs got $2.80 in
taxes!
This works the same for ANY rebate including buying cars with
'incentives'.......
Jay

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 07:21:09 -0500, the renowned "j.b. miller"
<invalidjbmiller@cogeco.ca> wrote:

I'd be interested to know if you guys south of the 49th pay sales tax on the
rebated money from a item you purchase with a 'coupon'.
Up here in Canada, I just paid $40 for a 128MB SDRAM stick. GST (Governement
Screwyou Tax of 7%) was $2.80. However I get back $30 from the MFR( AZEN in
this case). Making the acutal selling price just $10.
Now IF the in store price was $10, the Feds would only get .70 in GST NOT
the $2.80.
Out of my pocket the cost of RAM was only $10 BUT the FEDs got $2.80 in
taxes!
This works the same for ANY rebate including buying cars with
'incentives'.......
Jay

I'm pretty sure it's the company taking the difference, not the
government. The actual tax owing on a $100 purchase with a $60 rebate
is ONLY the tax on $40. They probably claim it back or never remit it
in the first place. ;-)


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 13:57:09 GMT, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 07:21:09 -0500, the renowned "j.b. miller"
invalidjbmiller@cogeco.ca> wrote:

I'd be interested to know if you guys south of the 49th pay sales tax on the
rebated money from a item you purchase with a 'coupon'.
Up here in Canada, I just paid $40 for a 128MB SDRAM stick. GST (Governement
Screwyou Tax of 7%) was $2.80. However I get back $30 from the MFR( AZEN in
this case). Making the acutal selling price just $10.
Now IF the in store price was $10, the Feds would only get .70 in GST NOT
the $2.80.
Out of my pocket the cost of RAM was only $10 BUT the FEDs got $2.80 in
taxes!
This works the same for ANY rebate including buying cars with
'incentives'.......
Jay

I'm pretty sure it's the company taking the difference, not the
government. The actual tax owing on a $100 purchase with a $60 rebate
is ONLY the tax on $40. They probably claim it back or never remit it
in the first place. ;-)


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

If you got a rebate by mail *after* the purchase there was tax
collected (and remitted to the gov) on the full purchase price.

If the rebate occurs at the register, say with a coupon, you pay tax
only on the difference (at least here in the colonies

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

John "Peace for our Time" Kerry, Neville Chamberlain of this Century

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 08:16:49 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

If you got a rebate by mail *after* the purchase there was tax
collected (and remitted to the gov) on the full purchase price.

Maybe it varies by state?

From a car purchase calculator:

Calculate sales tax before rebate
Some states will calculate sales tax on your purchase price before a
manufacturer's rebate is applied. If your state calculates sales tax
on the vehicle price before the rebate is applied, check this box.

If the rebate occurs at the register, say with a coupon, you pay tax
only on the difference (at least here in the colonies

...Jim Thompson

I'd certainly expect that. Paying tax on a higher value than you
actually shell out ought to lead to torches and pitchforks in the
streets..

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlog
DOTyou.knowwhat> wrote (in <rver50tqecajoemtskkonkgpse5aov3gsa@4ax.com&gt
about 'tracking use tax (only slightly OT)', on Sun, 21 Mar 2004:

Paying tax on a higher value than you
actually shell out ought to lead to torches and pitchforks in the
streets..

Torches and pitchforks? You all have assault rifles for such cases,
don't you, or is that only JY and his friends? (;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 16:24:46 +0000, the renowned John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlog
DOTyou.knowwhat> wrote (in <rver50tqecajoemtskkonkgpse5aov3gsa@4ax.com&gt
about 'tracking use tax (only slightly OT)', on Sun, 21 Mar 2004:

Paying tax on a higher value than you
actually shell out ought to lead to torches and pitchforks in the
streets..

Torches and pitchforks? You all have assault rifles for such cases,
don't you, or is that only JY and his friends? (;-)

We're lucky to be allowed sharp objects, eh?

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[KR Williams]

In article <65c9308c.0403192230.33b8a2af@posting.google.com>,
bob@certsoft.com says...

"Tim Wescott" <tim@wescottnospamdesign.com> wrote in message news:<105moqriffmmu7e@corp.supernews.com>...
I am sooo glad that Oregon hasn't instituted a sales tax yet. We're holding
the barbarians off at the gate.

I'm now in Oregon, but have lived in (and done business) in
California, Vermont, and New Mexico, all which had sales & use taxes.
I wonder if the people who propose a sales tax in Oregon realize what
a pain in the butt it is for business, especially those who might be
sending things to different parts of the state.

In Vermont it was pretty simple, one sales tax rate for the whole
state,

Not true. Several cities have an additional 1% sales tax. In
addition the tax rate by commodity and even quantity or price.
Automobiles are taxed at 7% (8% in some cities) while a
automobile tire is taxed at the base 6% (7%). If you buy six
bagels there is no tax (food), but five is subject to a 9% rooms
and meals tax. If you buy clothes that cost less than ($105,
IIRC) the there is no tax, above that it the sales tax is
applied. The list of nonsense continues...

but in California (at least when I was there) and New Mexico
each area had a different rate since once you have the system in
place, it gets used as a means to finance local "pet projects".

New York is like that. I lived in the town of Hyde Park. My
sales tax rate was 5%. A friend lived *closer* to the town
center, still in the town of Hyde Park, but had to pay 6% because
the USPS assigned him a Town of Poughkeepsie address.

I did get audited when I was in California, they simply took a sample
of sales (most of which were out of state/country, so no tax due), but
mostly what they were concerned with were use taxes. They want to make
sure that when you buy something out of state for your own business
use that you paid use tax. They didn't care about the nickel and dime
stuff.

We (Vermont) have a "use tax" line on our income tax form where
we pay (of course, we *all* do! taxes on items we bought out
of state. I wonder if that line is so prominent in the form
because right next door (New Hampshire) there is no sales tax?

You're right though. It's a mess. Anyone voting for a sales tax
really ought to look at what happens to it over the long run.

--
Keith

 

[KR Williams]

In article <c3hvj7$v4c$0@216.39.172.65>,
walterh@cafewalterNOSPAM.com says...

"Tim Wescott" <tim@wescottnospamdesign.com> wrote in message
news:105moqriffmmu7e@corp.supernews.com...
I am sooo glad that Oregon hasn't instituted a sales tax yet. We're
holding
the barbarians off at the gate.

Oddly enough I'm not one of the anti-tax fools that are currently messing
up
the state -- I just think that a sales tax puts a huge damper on small
businesses.

Agreed. I'd rather have an income tax. Instead, we have sales tax and a
business and occupancy tax based on gross revenue - comparatively
unambiguous, but onerous for young businesses that aren't yet profitable.

They were going to put a "gross receipts" tax in here. What a
disaster in the making. Some businesses get buy on very little
margin on huge revenue, while others have huge margins on little
revenue.

--
Keith

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:14:18 -0500, the renowned KR Williams
<krw@attglobal.net> wrote:

You're right though. It's a mess. Anyone voting for a sales tax
really ought to look at what happens to it over the long run.

The only way a consumption tax can be kept simple (and relatively low)
is to have *no* exemptions (rebate money back to poor folks for tax
paid on necessities if necessary). Including energy, food, rent,
drugs, catheters, prosthetic limbs for maimed soldiers, EVERYTHING. A
VAT works best at eliminating the tax load on business. I don't know
of any place on earth that has been able to do that politically.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:16:48 -0500, the renowned KR Williams
<krw@attglobal.net> wrote:

They were going to put a "gross receipts" tax in here. What a
disaster in the making. Some businesses get buy on very little
margin on huge revenue, while others have huge margins on little
revenue.

They taxed businesses like that in Eastern Europe, as I understand it.
A "turnover tax" (and not just on bakeries). It distorted the "market"
to help giant vertically integrated companies and destroy smaller
companies who would normally feed the large companies. Probably a
desirable outcome from the pov of that kind of gov't. Imagine a modern
economy where a product goes through 10 sets of hands from raw
materials to retail. If you tax it 10% at each step..

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that KR Williams <krw@attglobal.net>
wrote (in <MPG.1ac79c6f42fd0edd9896ae@news1.news.adelphia.net&gt about
'tracking use tax (only slightly OT)', on Sun, 21 Mar 2004:

Torches and pitchforks look better at 11. ;-)

What is '11' in that context?
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that KR Williams <krw@attglobal.net>
wrote (in <MPG.1ac79913a11b06cc9896ad@news1.news.adelphia.net&gt about
'tracking use tax (only slightly OT)', on Sun, 21 Mar 2004:

I would have thought our taxes
would have led to the torching of the Capitol, but sadly not.

A few thousand bills to some gentlemen in nightshirts.... (;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk